Scotland's 2018 Summer Tour: Darien Scheme 2.0

First topic message reminder :

Sunday 10th June 2018

Canada Vs Scotland

Sunday 17th June 2018

America Vs Scotland

Saturday 23rd June 2018

Argentina Vs Scotland



With an eye on the summer tour, whilst also keeping in mind the season isn't over for either of our pro teams - who would you "rest" for the summer tour and who would you bring along in their place?

I'd leave Russell, Price, WP Nel, Hogg, Dunbar, Barclay and Huw Jones purely because those guys have had extremely long seasons, are coming back from long term injuries and/or rarely (if ever) get a full pre-season with their clubs under their belts.

Dunbar is made of glass and could probably do with a summer of conditioning, same with WP Nel

Hogg, Jones and Russell have all had long seasons (lions tours/southern hemisphere seasons) and look a bit jaded.

Price is just off form and could do with some down time.

Barclay is getting on - would not like to injure our captain against America/Canada

With a world cup next year giving all of these guys a full pre-season could pay off in the long term.

Would also allow Townsend to have a closer look at Kinghorn, SHC/Horne (ideally take both and tell Fowles to f3ck off), Grigg, Chris Dean/Johnston/Bennett, Fagerson/Berghan/Mccalum, Bradbury.

Thoughts?

Last min of the game, Italy going for lineout

Driving Maul from Italy with pen advantage. We're going to lose this

Scotland player yellow carded for collapsing the maul

5 metres out, line out italy

Italy try from driving maul, they've won; 27-26 to Italy with conversion to go.  The conversion will be the last action of the game.

last 20 mins of the game was all Italy.  First hour was all Scotland.  Redpath needs to get into them for that, as there was no way they should have lost that game.  They just didn't turn up for the last 20 and Italy took control.

Conversion missed, but doesn't matter

the 9 and 11 caught my eye - the 9 especially looks a right nippy wee I am a twonk of the highest order

Considering we could not win a lineout or a scrum in the entire game, I am not quite sure how we held out as long as we did. Once the Italians twigged they just had to run hard and straight we were in trouble.

As we suspected we were massively underpowered and I suspect it will be a long tournament for us, hard to imagine Argentina and England are not going to be pretty strong up front as well.

They will hopefully take a lot from the experience though and an awful lot of them will be back again next year. A few of them look like they could become decent players if they fill out a bit.

Missing two very kickable conversions did not help either. That would have won us the game!

Things are only going to get tougher from now on - we really had to win that game. There's a high chance we're going to be bottom of the group and scrapping it out in for the bottom place playoffs that ultimately decide who gets relegated to the 2nd tier championship. I can't see that happening but we really had to win that game!

Your young lads only win this season was against England - so perhaps they can repeat that?

To be fair this Italy under 20 side are actually pretty good, they beat us and Wales in the 6 nations and ran Ireland close.

We should have won that game last night, but purely because we were on top for most of it.

I actually think for the first time in a while the Scotland players looked physically up to it, breaking tackles, and winning turnover ball.  However at the scrum we were largely second best and also at the lineout, but I think the lineout issues were just poor play/technique rather than a physical thing.

We beat England u20s in the 6 nations so it’s not impossible that we can repeat that this time out, however it does require improvements in some key areas.

I'd be surprised if we turn England over again - they are always strong in the World Cup and will know what they did wrong in the 6N. Our set piece was woeful last night and they'll really target that.

I'm afraid these youngsters have committed too many panatlies and lost in the contact area too often. Tackling in particular has been poor

Going to have to mature mentally and physically if they want to step up to the full national XV

Great try from Calum McClelland https://twitter.com/WorldRugby/status/1003266876980383744?s=19

I actually though we did pretty well in that game. We were massively overpowered again which is always going to make it hard to play without a platform. It is the sort of game we would have lost by a cricket score a few years ago. We remained competitive and really made them work for it, this team will improve enormously over the next 12 months. I hope they can keep Redpath on board, he has definitely improved them since the 6N.

There are some good players in this crop of youngsters, it will be interesting to see who comes through to senior level.

Bad few weeks for Scottish rugby - both pro teams lose in the playoffs, under 20s lose their first 2 games and our 7s lose 5 out of 6 games at Twickenham!

Hopefully the senior team can give us a positive end of season.

Its been very quiet from the Scotland camp out in Canada. They have been out there for the best part of a week now and hardly a word, just a few tweets of them arriving and training in Vancouver.

That is a slight departure from usual, as the PR department of the SRU usually ensures someone fronting up to the media each day during an international period.

It may of course mean that non of the journalists who might be covering the tour have gone out yet as well, they did seem to go out a lot earlier than they might have done, maybe Toonie just wanted a quiet period of training away from it all and for them to be fully acclimatized prior to the game.

I imagine that we will start to see some action later in the week, especially if anyone is going to be making a debut, you would imagine they will be paraded before the press if that is the case.

Apparently Hogg won’t be playing the Argentina test. Kind and f odd, that’s the one I’d definitely save home for.

Leander wrote:Apparently Hogg won’t be playing the Argentina test. Kind and f odd, that’s the one I’d definitely save home for.

Welcome Leander, nice to have you join us.

I am actually not all that bothered about that as it will be good to see Kinghorn get a run out at 15 in a proper test match. I suspect he may bench or play on the wing for the first two. He is a player that needs to be brought on and so must get some game time.

Hoggy missed a lot of the season, which was probably the only reason he came on the tour at all. A longer rest won't do him any harm either, it is going to be a long year next year!

By the way, Glasgow or Edinburgh?

Now I may be reading too much into this, but Scotland team tweeted some pictures from training and there were those in bibs and those not in bibs. Usually the bib wearers are the subs/not involved (I would know as a frequent bib wearer!) so could give some hints on team selection. Then again, it was only a Monday training session so chances of them running the full team are probably slim.

Anyway, George Horne is seen as a non-bib wearer - he could be in line for his first cap.

What 9s have gone on tour?

It would make sense that Horne is getting a run out as he's probably been the the best 9 in Scotland this year.

Horne, SHC and Price.

I would actually argue that SHC is the form 9 - he has been superb in the end of season run in. Horne has probably had the better overall season (SHC wasn't always picked earlier on) but is a victim of Glasgow's end of season slump at a time when Edinburgh were powering on.

BigGee wrote:

Leander wrote:Apparently Hogg won’t be playing the Argentina test. Kind and f odd, that’s the one I’d definitely save home for.

Welcome Leander, nice to have you join us.

I am actually not all that bothered about that as it will be good to see Kinghorn get a run out at 15 in a proper test match. I suspect he may bench or play on the wing for the first two. He is a player that needs to be brought on and so must get some game time.

Hoggy missed a lot of the season, which was probably the only reason he came on the tour at all. A longer rest won't do him any harm either, it is going to be a long year next year!

By the way, Glasgow or Edinburgh?

Hi BG. I'm an Edinburgh man - does that change the warmth of your welcome?

I've absolutely no problem with Kinghorn playing a big part on the tour, he's a superb player. Just interesting to ponder on the rationale for taking Hogg and not playing him in the biggest game.

It's a tricky balance for Townsend to strike in general. Canada would be the ideal game to play the kids, you'd hope that all the uncapped guys get time on the pitch no matter what happens.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Horne, SHC and Price.

I would actually argue that SHC is the form 9 - he has been superb in the end of season run in. Horne has probably had the better overall season (SHC wasn't always picked earlier on) but is a victim of Glasgow's end of season slump at a time when Edinburgh were powering on.

Horne was one of the few Glasgow players who maintained his form right up to the end of the season and one of the only ones who looked half decent in the Scarlet's game. He is probably the next cab off the rank but the Scotland SH pecking order is certainly one that is liable to change over the next 12 months running up to the WC.

I imagine that they will all get some game time in the first two games and the two that show up best will head down to Argentina for the proper test match.

Leander wrote:

BigGee wrote:

Leander wrote:Apparently Hogg won’t be playing the Argentina test. Kind and f odd, that’s the one I’d definitely save home for.

Welcome Leander, nice to have you join us.

I am actually not all that bothered about that as it will be good to see Kinghorn get a run out at 15 in a proper test match. I suspect he may bench or play on the wing for the first two. He is a player that needs to be brought on and so must get some game time.

Hoggy missed a lot of the season, which was probably the only reason he came on the tour at all. A longer rest won't do him any harm either, it is going to be a long year next year!

By the way, Glasgow or Edinburgh?

Hi BG. I'm an Edinburgh man - does that change the warmth of your welcome?

I've absolutely no problem with Kinghorn playing a big part on the tour, he's a superb player. Just interesting to ponder on the rationale for taking Hogg and not playing him in the biggest game.

It's a tricky balance for Townsend to strike in general. Canada would be the ideal game to play the kids, you'd hope that all the uncapped guys get time on the pitch no matter what happens.  

Edinburgh, no I am just about fine with that, they are after all my second favourite Scottish team!

I suspect that Toonie did not want the tour to be devoid of all the senior players and he is keen on Hoggy being a big part of the leadership group, he could even conceivably become the captain if McInally does not make the first match, which from the hints we have had, seems likely. He has come on massively in that respect since his days of petulance in his youth and will probably relish setting the standards for the new guys. After all the disappointments of this season for him, he may be very keen to get some time in with the squad as well.

As I said previously, he has had the least arduous season of all the senior players and that may be why he has come along rather than some of the others.

I really want o see Kinghorn getting a good run out at 15.

I've very worried that he could become the next Chris Paterson (which wouldn't be bad I suppose) if he's seen a super sub.

Hogg is only 25 and will likely be around for the next 3 world cups. Kinghorn could end up being that poor guy whose versatility means he benches and covers 10, wing and fullback.

tigertattie wrote:I really want o see Kinghorn getting a good run out at 15.

I've very worried that he could become the next Chris Paterson (which wouldn't be bad I suppose) if he's seen a super sub.

Hogg is only 25 and will likely be around for the next 3 world cups. Kinghorn could end up being that poor guy whose versatility means he benches and covers 10, wing and fullback.

That's the price you pay for good squad depth - some talented guys will always lose out. It's a big ask for Kinghorn, displacing one of Scotland's best ever players, and probably the only one of the current crop who would look completely at home in any club or national team in the world. Personally I think it's great he can cover wing, as we're starting to look a bit short there.

I'm really excited to see the non-capped lads play. They could all have long futures ahead of them in the jersey. I wonder if Toonie will be brave enough to go for a Fagerson/Bradbury/Ritchie backrow? Carmichael at lock, Horne at 9. That would be fun.

This is where the Toonie Tombola can really go nuts!

Here's the squad

Simon Berghan (Edinburgh Rugby) – 8 caps
Jamie Bhatti (Glasgow Warriors) – 8 caps
Magnus Bradbury (Edinburgh Rugby) – 2 caps
Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 31 caps
Lewis Carmichael (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
Allan Dell (Edinburgh Rugby) – 10 caps
David Denton (Worcester Warriors) – 39 caps
Matt Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – uncapped
Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 16 caps
Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) – 22 caps
Luke Hamilton (Leicester Tigers) – 1 cap
Murray McCallum (Edinburgh Rugby) – 1 cap
Stuart McInally CAPTAIN (Edinburgh Rugby) – 17 caps
Jamie Ritchie (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) – 36 caps
George Turner (Glasgow Warriors) – 2 caps
Ben Toolis (Edinburgh Rugby) – 9 caps

BACKS (15)

Nick Grigg (Glasgow Warriors) – 4 caps
Chris Harris (Newcastle Falcons) – 2 caps
Adam Hastings (Glasgow Warriors) – uncapped
Sam Hidalgo-Clyne (Edinburgh Rugby) – 9 caps
Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 60 caps
George Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – uncapped
Pete Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – 33 caps
Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors) – 32 caps
Lee Jones (Glasgow Warriors) – 8 caps
Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh Rugby) – 2 caps
James Lang (Harlequins) – uncapped
Byron McGuigan (Sale Sharks) – 3 caps
Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 16 caps
Duncan Taylor (Saracens) – 21 caps
Mark Bennett (Edamburger) - 20 caps

Unavailable through injury: Luke Crosbie (knee), John Hardie (back), Huw Jones (wrist surgery scheduled), Willem Nel (knee assessment / rehabilitation), Hamish Watson (shoulder). Alex Dunbar (ran out of sellotape). Ritchie Gray (old age apparently)

My pick at the starting forward vs Canada

1. Bhatti
2. Brown (assuming McInally will be cabbaged)
3. ZooZander
4. Toolis
5. Gilchrist
6. Bradbury
7. Hamilton
8. Denton

Toonie can't just chuck all the youngsters in at once, even against a team ranked 21st in the world.

tigertattie wrote:Toonie can't just chuck all the youngsters in at once, even against a team ranked 21st in the world.

I can guarantee you he's tempted, though...

I'll go for a back line of:

Horne G
Hastings
McGuigan
Taylor
Grigg
Kinghorn
Hogg

SHC, Horne P and Bennett to bench

With all due respect to this Canadian team, we should be able to put out or most inexperienced team and still beat them comfortably. If we put out a more experienced team we really need to be putting a big score on - if we're really a Top 6 team we need to be putting away a team ranked 21st with relative ease.

Rumours are that Taylor is a bit crock again though, his back this time.

If he is not fit then maybe Horne P to play 12 and Lang on the bench.

Anyone going to stay up to watch this 2am UK time? Given that it's on BBC I think I'll just record it and watch in the morning!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Anyone going to stay up to watch this 2am UK time? Given that it's on BBC I think I'll just record it and watch in the morning!

I'm at my best mate's wedding on Saturday, so we're tempted to stay up and watch it on some crappy stream on our phones. Not sure if he's consulted his bride on that plan...

If Taylor and McInally are crocked, I would like

Bhatti - Brown - Z Fagerson       (Dell-Turner-McCallum)
Toolis - Gilchrist                        (Carmichael)
M Fagerson - Denton - Ritchie     (Hamilton)

G Horne - Hastings                     (SHC - Jackson)
P Horne - Bennett                       (Harris)
McGuigan - Kinghorn - L Jones

5 debutantes in the 23, 6 more with less than 5 caps. This would be based largely on club form with the Glasgow props only favoured over Dell and Berghan because of Brown.

I expect Dell and Berghan to start with the Glasgow props to the bench. Swinson will be involved somehow. Probably Hamilton starts ahead of Ritchie and Bradbury for M Fagerson (who benches). SHC will likely start as well.

Toonie should use this to see what many youngsters can do and then the game against the Trump Voters will be more a warm up with most of the players Toonie will be looking at using against Argentina.

The problem is though that we need a performance as well as a result and if we struggle against Canada then it's a bit ropey.

Canada are no mugs mind and will be right up for this game to show that they should be involved in the world cup.

A quick thought, wasn't Gilchrist considered captain material at one point? Would he captain if Hogg and McInally are not involved?

Gilchrist has been made captain a few times only for injury to prevent it happening - VC made him his first captain.

Leander wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Anyone going to stay up to watch this 2am UK time? Given that it's on BBC I think I'll just record it and watch in the morning!

I'm at my best mate's wedding on Saturday, so we're tempted to stay up and watch it on some crappy stream on our phones. Not sure if he's consulted his bride on that plan...

Might as well establish the ground rules at the beginning of the marriage!

I can't believe he will have brought Hoggy all this way and is not going to play him at all!

So if he is going home from Houston, then surely he will play in the two games in north America (or at least part of them).

BigGee wrote:I can't believe he will have brought Hoggy all this way and is not going to play him at all!

So if he is going home from Houston, then surely he will play in the two games in north America (or at least part of them).

He probably brought him primarily in a mentor capacity. I think he's always viewed this as a chance to develop the younger players.

I suspect Hogg is being released to spend time with his family, as next season will be hugely taxing on all the first choice players bearing in mind it's a world cup at the end of 2019.

So using my highly scientific bibs v non-bibs method based on the latest pictures from training, the team is starting to fill in:

1 Dell
2 Brown
3 Berghan
4 Toolis
5 Gilchrist
6 Bradbury
7
8 Denton

9 Horne (although price was seen without a bib too!)
10
11
12
13 Harris
14
15 Hogg

RDW_Scotland wrote:So using my highly scientific bibs v non-bibs method based on the latest pictures from training, the team is starting to fill in:

1 Dell
2 Brown
3 Berghan
4 Toolis
5 Gilchrist
6 Bradbury
7
8 Denton

9 Horne (although price was seen without a bib too!)
10
11
12
13 Harris
14
15 Hogg

Interesting. To be fair it's hard to miss the man-bun in pictures.

When is the team announced officially?

Today I believe - probably tonight UK time.

Suspect it'll be Horne at 12 if Hastings is at FH as I think Toonie wants someone experienced to support him on his first run out.

If Taylor is fit I'd have him in, especially with Harris at 13 - he needs a good IC to help his confidence imo.

Jones on wing, Kinghorn on other.

I reckon Hamilton will be given another shot at 7 as we've not had a chance to see much of him, and he was a nuisance against NZ. Could be a decent backup to Watson (though of a very much a similar mold).

Team will be announced 16:15 UK time

I suppose if there's ever an international where Pete Horne will be the least of a liability then it's this one!

tigertattie wrote:I suppose if there's ever an international where Pete Horne will be the least of a liability then it's this one!

Easy, tiger. Bit harsh.

Grant Gilchrist announced as captain.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Grant Gilchrist announced as captain.

Where did you see that?