France vs England

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France

France: Jaminet; Penaud, Fickou, Danty, Villiere; Ntamack, Dupont (capt); Baille, Marchand, Atonio, Woki, Willemse, Cros, Alldritt, Jelonch.

Replacements: Mauvaka, Gros, Haouas, Flament, Taofifenua, Cretin, Lucu, Ramos.

vs England

15. George Furbank

14. Freddie Steward

13. Joe Marchant

12. Henry Slade

11. Jack Nowell

10. Marcus Smith

9. Ben Youngs

1. Ellis Genge

2. Jamie George

3. Will Stuart

4. Maro Itoje

5. Nick Isiekwe

6. Courtney Lawes

7. Sam Underhill

8. Sam Simmonds

Finishers

16. Nic Dolly (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)

17. Joe Marler

18. Kyle Sinckler

19. Ollie Chessum

20. Alex Dombrandt

21. Harry Randall

22. George Ford

23. Elliot Daly

Kick-off: 8:00pm

Referee: Jaco Peyper (SARU)

Assistant Referee 1: Mike Adamson (SRU)

Assistant Referee 2: Frank Murphy (IRFU)

TMO: Marius Jonker (SARU)

Collapse2005 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ps at least Ireland didnt win

Silver linings, England also scored a try. Not all doom and gloom.

IIRC only the second try from an English back this tournament. 

The attack set up has been woeful all tournament, a little better today but Gleeson must be starting to sweat as he's come in and added nothing.

Subs came on quite late today, they gave us some impetus but it felt like it was to late. Youngs on to the 60 something minute is way to long and why only five minutes for Ford when Smith was poor. Thankfully Smith to fullback looked quite good and got rid of Furbank who's cameo reminded everyone why he doesn't normally get selected but that should have happened 15 mins earlier.

Think Smith scored also two tries and Daly got one. Jones down to about a 65% win rate in the 6N.

That's right I'd blanked the Italy game for some reason.

Not sure I agree with all your points there MichaelT. Simmonds was excellent against Ire and good yesterday. Itoje been good all 6N I thought.
Slade not a 12 and hasn't been anything other than average at best. Isiekwe tricky one, I think he's been more deserving of place than Ewels was and then being bought back in yesterday probably not ideal. However, my locks would be Lawes and Itoje no question.
Furbank as I've said to 7&1/2 could have been a disaster (I feared) but he was OK yesterday but agree I wouldn't pick him again.
Youngs and Daly time up. Long ago.
England desperately need a proper 12, maybe then backline clicks and we can see what they can do.

mountain man wrote:England desperately need a proper 12, maybe then backline clicks and we can see what they can do.

I'm not sure a 'proper 12' will magically make the backline work as there's currently multiple problems and Slade isn't really playing badly.

I'd hope England would use the summer tour to continue to blood additional centre options, the likes of Ojomoh, Kelly and if he's fit Lawrence so that we have increased options come the AIs. I somewhat fear Farrell will be parachuted back in though which may be what Smith needs, as he's lacking some direction at times but I'd like to think we'd give Smith a go with some of the young attacking options to Prem is producing first.

Sending a younger squad to Australia and resting some key players so they have a full pre season might ease pressure on the side to produce results as well. That might well help a bit.

Well it also depends upon who Jones(assuming he stays) will actually pick at 12. We know he will pick Farrell and to be honest I'd welcome him back in a 12. He's not the magic bullet that will make backline click but he'd be better than Slade.

This 6N was time to blood new players but Jones didn't do it and time running out. Jones always said need 30/40 caps whatever it was for a player to get to potential and no chance for uncapped to gain enough experience according to Jones previous comments for the RWC.
I'm definitely not saying don't pick new players, just reiterating what Jones seems to think.

mountain man wrote:Well it also depends upon who Jones(assuming he stays) will actually pick at 12. We know he will pick Farrell and to be honest I'd welcome him back in a 12. He's not the magic bullet that will make backline click but he'd be better than Slade.

This 6N was time to blood new players but Jones didn't do it and time running out. Jones always said need 30/40 caps whatever it was for a player to get to potential and no chance for uncapped to gain enough experience according to Jones previous comments for the RWC.
I'm definitely not saying don't pick new players, just reiterating what Jones seems to think.

I disagree, the 6N is never the time for blooding players. The 6N is the annual tournament where we show where we are against our nearest and dearest. That's when we want to be performing. Which is why I'm somewhat annoyed we decided to go to this attacking system that doesn't work and we are apparently not equipped to actually run. Not sure why we could have just worked on providing Smith with a number of options close to the gain line and let him pick.

I'm saying this from Jones point of view, he sees everything supposedly as means to an end and that end is RWC. Hence why not try new players whenever there are opportunites and the 6N is one. Instead he brings back in players who aren't good enough - likes of Furbank, Daly and plays them and others out of position.

Itoje has been very good all the way through. I just think there is a natural tendency to judge players as good as he is by different standards than everyone else.

As for Jones - yes I know he's been unlucky with injuries and that he has made some attempts to revitalise the team with a few talents that have not been so much knocking on the door as smashing it down. And yet it still feels as if he's fallen back on old journeymen to fill in the gaps left by the numerous injuries instead of investing in new talent. The results may have been the same, but they could not have been worse.

Coaches who have been in their roles too long seem to do this, rely on the old favourites too long. Despite the emergence of Steward and Smith, the development of Genge and the established brilliance of Itoje and Curry, this team feels past its sell by date.

Who'd have thought Furbank would be poor, he's been so impressive in his other appearances......

What I don't get about furbank is I thought he'd be counter attacking more. Then all he did was pass the ball to Genge. He floated some nice passes out wide which led to sky isolated turnovers. That's about it.

lostinwales wrote:Itoje has been very good all the way through. I just think there is a natural tendency to judge players as good as he is by different standards than everyone else.

.

I think this is true. when you are a regular 9 out of ten player and have a 7 out of ten game its seen as a poor game, but when you are a 5 out of 10 player and have a 7 out of ten game its seen as a great game

I think Itoje is a fabulous player. He has reined in the aggression so as not to keep on giving away penalties, his work rate is immense. he reads the game so well and his skill set is impressive. He just keeps on getting better. IMO he is the only england player that would walk into any side in the world. Truely one for a world 15. I don't think there is another player in the england side you would say that of.

Curry. Unless you're discounting injury.
You could make a strong argument for George and genge on current form too.

Curry the best in the world in his position?  thats the criteria I am using.  he may become that in time but now? He gives away too many penalties. He will get better with more experience. Itoje did

Oh. Yes then definitely curry. Obviously an openside but he'd make it as a 6 in most sides too.

Curry is excellent player but not in world XV for me. Itoje yes.

However all hypothetical.

I think it has all been said, we don't know just how far we have come or regressed. It is impossible to judge with so many players missing. What would we have done with May, Watson, Manu, Farrell, Hill, Curry, Willis and no covid between games, who knows. I certainly don't so i am just going to look at the few things that came out of this campaign.

Who has put a fire cracker up Stuart's backside, he actually looked like he belonged in the starting shirt yesterday.

Dombrandt, is our 8 for the next year at least, least see if Willis can move him.

We do not have a shortage of locks, which we thought might be the case pre6N.

Overall the pack performed pretty well and seem to have stopped giving away so many silly penalties.

We do have a potentially very good 13 in Marchant

Steward is an International born, not even a swap to the wing phased him.

We do not need Ewels in or even near the squad.

Youngs needs to be led out a nice green, well fenced field and left there, Welford Road would be adequate.

I hate to say it, but maybe we need Farrell back.

Smith is fallible and needs someone at 9 who can be at the breakdown as it happens, not 5 seconds later. If EJ thinks Randall's fitness is an issue, what is Youngs like. I could run around for 80 minutes at the speed he goes. Passes or 10m to the 10 should not have a loop in them!

Another I hate to say it, but Furbank is not up to this standard, (watch George Hendy, he is another U20 to join the procession of quality 15s coming out of the academies these days)

Stayed away from any dialogue yesterday, but that was more due to bruising a couple of ribs. The breathing thing is better today.....

Watched Wales-Italy this morning, and the contrast between Italy and England was stark. The Italians were enjoying their game,  England didn't seem to.  Even before that great finish.    

For me, I was happy that EJ actually tried something different.  Unfortunately, the squad selection was limited and the tactics were incomprehensible.  This is all on Eddie.

Why play Smith unless he can play to his strengths?  Why play Youngs, who has been a terrific England player, but in the ever receding past?  Slade is not a 12, we know, but - ffs - any Rugby player is taught at U12 to run on the ball to support the player inside you.  More static without the ball than Big Ben under construction except for a couple of runs.   Marchant seems to be playing better, but with Slade 75% useless, needed to get the ball even more.  Steward is not a wing, but at least he knows to run forward.  Unlike Nowell who needs a vacation.   Furbank was not at all great and made that hellacious brain fart, but at least tried to get things moving, clearly in violation of 'The Plan'.  His last 20 minutes were better because the attack had to open. Playing an attacking 15 in a defensive game plan is bizarre.

Genge was terrific again, but needs some help.  George was good, and we could see Itoje and Lawes worked like dogs and played with pride.  The back three, especially with Underhill(!), Simmonds, and Dombrandt is a group a team can win with, no doubts for me.  With Curry back, it will even better.  

The good news, I felt the commitment on defense was excellent.  Defense is 50% attitude and pride, so that is still there.  

But, bottom line for me, tactics were poopie, the selection was a mixed bag of merde, their ability to react to the defense non-existent.  If people call for EJ to be let go, then how do we explain the results last autumn?  The answer is just as confusing as England's results this winter.

doctor_grey wrote:Stayed away from any dialogue yesterday, but that was more due to bruising a couple of ribs. The breathing thing is better today.....

Watched Wales-Italy this morning, and the contrast between Italy and England was stark. The Italians were enjoying their game,  England didn't seem to.  Even before that great finish.    

For me, I was happy that EJ actually tried something different.  Unfortunately, the squad selection was limited and the tactics were incomprehensible.  This is all on Eddie.

Why play Smith unless he can play to his strengths?  Why play Youngs, who has been a terrific England player, but in the ever receding past?  Slade is not a 12, we know, but - ffs - any Rugby player is taught at U12 to run on the ball to support the player inside you.  More static without the ball than Big Ben under construction except for a couple of runs.   Marchant seems to be playing better, but with Slade 75% useless, needed to get the ball even more.  Steward is not a wing, but at least he knows to run forward.  Unlike Nowell who needs a vacation.   Furbank was not at all great and made that hellacious brain fart, but at least tried to get things moving, clearly in violation of 'The Plan'.  His last 20 minutes were better because the attack had to open.  Playing an attacking 15 in a defensive game plan is bizarre.  

Genge was terrific again, but needs some help.  George was good, and we could see Itoje and Lawes worked like dogs and played with pride.  The back three, especially with Underhill(!), Simmonds, and Dombrandt is a group a team can win with, no doubts for me.  With Curry back, it will even better.  

The good news, I felt the commitment on defense was excellent.  Defense is 50% attitude and pride, so that is still there.  

But, bottom line for me, tactics were poopie, the selection was a mixed bag of merde, their ability to react to the defense non-existent.  If people call for EJ to be let go, then how do we explain the results last autumn?  The answer is just as confusing as England's results this winter.

I now want Jones to go. Because its bloody boring. And it's been boring for a good while now. I don't enjoy watching England in most games.

doctor_grey wrote:Stayed away from any dialogue yesterday, but that was more due to bruising a couple of ribs. The breathing thing is better today.....

Watched Wales-Italy this morning, and the contrast between Italy and England was stark. The Italians were enjoying their game,  England didn't seem to.  Even before that great finish.    

For me, I was happy that EJ actually tried something different.  Unfortunately, the squad selection was limited and the tactics were incomprehensible.  This is all on Eddie.

Why play Smith unless he can play to his strengths?  Why play Youngs, who has been a terrific England player, but in the ever receding past?  Slade is not a 12, we know, but - ffs - any Rugby player is taught at U12 to run on the ball to support the player inside you.  More static without the ball than Big Ben under construction except for a couple of runs.   Marchant seems to be playing better, but with Slade 75% useless, needed to get the ball even more.  Steward is not a wing, but at least he knows to run forward.  Unlike Nowell who needs a vacation.   Furbank was not at all great and made that hellacious brain fart, but at least tried to get things moving, clearly in violation of 'The Plan'.  His last 20 minutes were better because the attack had to open.  Playing an attacking 15 in a defensive game plan is bizarre.  

Genge was terrific again, but needs some help.  George was good, and we could see Itoje and Lawes worked like dogs and played with pride.  The back three, especially with Underhill(!), Simmonds, and Dombrandt is a group a team can win with, no doubts for me.  With Curry back, it will even better.  

The good news, I felt the commitment on defense was excellent.  Defense is 50% attitude and pride, so that is still there.  

But, bottom line for me, tactics were poopie, the selection was a mixed bag of merde, their ability to react to the defense non-existent.  If people call for EJ to be let go, then how do we explain the results last autumn?  The answer is just as confusing as England's results this winter.

With reference to the back three (scrum), I think you still need a Lawes type player in there, Curry is an occasional jumper, and neither Simmons or Dombrandt do much at all, jumping wise. As lineouts occur far more frequently than scrums, you need a third jumper, Lawes, Chessum or Martin's size to ensure you have options.

A disappointing end to a disappointing tournament, although I knew we were stuffed when I saw it was Peiper reffing - we just never seem to play well to his interpretation of the rules (same used to be the case with Rolland). Not a bias thing, just that refs have different things they look for and we don't adjust well.

I don't think we're far from having a decent squad -
Forwards:
Genge and Marler both very good looseheads. Unless Mako is brought back in, a big drop in experience behind.
George and LC-D again both high quality hookers, but with a gap to Blamire or Dolly behind.
Sinkler good enough and Stuart growing into the role.

Itoje obviously world class
Launchbury probably next best overall, but obviously his relatively moderate lineout skills mean a jumper from the back row.
Hill and Isiekwe decent enough as backup. OK, could do with an English Etzebeth or a young Martin Johnson, but we don't currently have one...

Curry, Underhill and Willis is almost an embarrassment of riches at openside if they can get and stay fit.
Lawes playing pretty well at 6, with any of the above and Chessum + Barbeary as backup
Dombrandt and Simmonds coming on OK at 8, but a rejuvenated (or 4 years younger) Billy V would be a major asset.

Overall, we can put out a pack that will be a serious match for anyone.

Backs:
SH - Randall OK. Youngs not. Need another of the younger players to pull ahead of the pack.
10 - Smith has great potential but has only shown it in flashes, not aided by inadequacies elsewhere. Ford plenty good enough as a back up and Farrell offers cover

12 - The big conundrum. Does Farrell com back in, and does he offer much more than Slade here? Alternatively, can we find powerful ball carrier with some skill and the ability to run supporting lines?
13 - Marchant improving and Slade better here than 12 (just not with Farrell inside him) Also the enigma of Tuillagi still potentially available on the odd occasion his glass body allows.

Wings - A missed opportunity to really test a couple of the youngsters in the absence of Watson and May. Them plus Cockanasiga suggest the cupboard is not bare, but May is 32 in a couple of weeks, which is getting on for a winger, and there looks to be a lack of proven depth.

Fullback: Steward looks very good for a young player - if he can just add a bit more acceleration, he could be absolutely top class. The backup to date has rather proven itself lacking - Furbank and Daly would be on most supporters lists of the players we don't want to see for England again (along with Youngs).

If we could get everyone fit, we really aren't far away, as long as Jones stops with the ridiculous selections and negative tactics. Oh, and actually picking the best XV, which has a sensible balance - the best players in each position do not necessarily make the best team (e.g. Farrell and Slade at 12 and 13 don't work as a combination, even if they are individually the best options in those positions).

THoughts from an outsider.

For 12 play Farrell - I never thought Id say that but until a 12 who is good enough and stays fit emerges, he is the best bet
Marchant has moved passed Slade at 13 imo.
As for wingers play wingers - you could reasonably argue England had three 15s on the pitch for most of the match
Give Radwan and Lynagh their chance, other young wingers are available.