Scotland - 2024 Victim Support Group Thread

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures for this year's jamboree:

3 February 2024
16:45 GMT
Wales v Scotland
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zealand)

10 February 2024
14:15 GMT
Scotland v France
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)

24 February 2024
16:45 GMT
Scotland v England
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Referee: Andrew Brace (Ireland)

9 March 2024
15:15 CET (UTC+1)
Italy v Scotland
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)

16 March 2024
16:45 WET
Ireland v Scotland
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Referee: Matthew Carley (England)

Let's get our post-traumatic stress disorder and excuses in early.

[RDW]

FFS Hoggy. What a Mr Winklechops. I'm sure he'll be on social media soon telling us how he's actually true victim here!

He's done a pretty thorough job of ruining his public imagine since he retired..

[NeilyBroon]

Wee Shona will miss the rest of the 6 Nations. Redpath will most likely start against the Azzurri, Hutcheson or Lord Stafford to bench?

So our new official centre pairing will be a Red Huw?

Lights, CamHuw, action?

Huw Cajones??

[bsando]

Gréât opportunity for redpath, especially against Ireland who as Tom English says, are on another level to everyone else. I think it’s good that he’s going to get these two games to show what he’s all about.

[RDW]

Sebastian, Sutherland, Sykes, Dobie added to the squad

Nel, Craig and Tuipolotu out

[BigGee]

Looks like maybe Toonie is moving on from the venerable Nelly.

Dobie played very well against Benetton, but baring i jury, unlikely to make the team and probably there for the experience.

The other 3 probably in for scrumaging practice, though Bhatti did drop a weight on his foot last week in the gym, so may also be iffy.

[jimbopip]

Great to see Sutherland in the squad.
Bhatti

Now I don't normally care for conspiracy theory type nonsense, but....
Bhatti misses out on two match day XXIII's.
Bhatti has a "clear the air" with Toonie.
Bhatti is released back to Glasgow.
Bhatti then has a "freak accident" in the gym.
Now according to the General, certainly the way I read it, Bhatti doesn't need an operation, hasn't broken any bones and may not miss any league matches. It was, however, felt that there was no point in him joining the Scotland squad to train as he wouldn't be able to run properly.
This could all be as innocent as Big Gee in the drugs cupboard or it could be as spiteful as FES when the staff discuss joining a union.
I can't help feeling that the Wombat was not for holding tackle bags and Toonie was not for being told who to pick.

[NeilyBroon]

Ah Kim Jong toon is at the micromanaging outside the inner circle again I see.

Assuming it's going to be same 23 with Redpath in and one of McDowall or Hutch on the bench.

So Huw Cajones to start, with McDowall to win us the bonus point through a hatrick in his 5 minutes game time.

[RDW]

Ah Kim Jong toon is at the micromanaging outside the inner circle again I see.

Assuming it's going to be same 23 with Redpath in and one of McDowall or Hutch on the bench.

So Huw Cajones to start, with McDowall to win us the bonus point through a hatrick in his 5 minutes game time.

[jimbopip]

What makes you think Stafford will need five whole minutes to win the game?

[NeilyBroon]

What makes you think Stafford will need five whole minutes to win the game?

The 2 and a half minutes it takes the referee to call the substitution will slow him down.

As I said before we've got to give the other sides a fighting chance. He might need 6 minutes against the Irish...

[George Carlin]

Given that the Mighty Staff can hear sign language and the dark is afraid of him, I would propose he takes the 23 shirt.

[jimbopip]

Given that the Mighty Staff can hear sign language and the dark is afraid of him, I would propose he takes the all 23 shirts.

Stafford, Lord Of The Staffs, can hear those whistles.

[NeilyBroon]

I hope Toontastic is reading this and taking notes before he "leaks" his squad.

Dwayne will be passing back inside to Stafford, even the record try scorer has to step aside to allow scoring the career record try count per cap. Not that it'd stop McDowall, even off the pitch he's scoring, to quote dancer,

"Yeah I just play my game out there, you could say I'm the Messi of rugby but really our tries are all down to Stafford. He taught me everything about being a fly half and continues to lead us. We have leaders in our player group but he is the leader"

[RDW]

Hope the shock / anger has reduced a little, but I'm guessing everyone is still raging.

I've never been in the Toonie out camp but I'm certainly now wondering what more he can achieve with this team. Let's fact it if we'd got our mentality right we should currently be 3-4 points clear of Ireland and going for a GS or Championship win!

So part of me is like "we were actually really close to doing something special so he's doing a good job, just need that last 10%" and the other part is "we completely butchered the chance to do something special, which ultimately is on the coach"

Toonie has been looking for that last 10% for 6 years and I just don't think he'll ever find it now.

[NeilyBroon]

Hope the shock / anger has reduced a little, but I'm guessing everyone is still raging.

I've never been in the Toonie out camp but I'm certainly now wondering what more he can achieve with this team. Let's fact it if we'd got our mentality right we should currently be 3-4 points clear of Ireland and going for a GS or Championship win!

So part of me is like "we were actually really close to doing something special so he's doing a good job, just need that last 10%" and the other part is "we completely butchered the chance to do something special, which ultimately is on the coach"

Toonie has been looking for that last 10% for 6 years and I just don't think he'll ever find it now.

Welcome RDW, we've got t-shirts!

We've played less than the sum of our parts most days with the occasional sum of our parts some days. Very rarely have I seen a Toonie coached performance where I think we played as better than our individuals, especially recently. Toonie was gifted a talented squad and he essentially facilitated their individual talents but didn't offer much beyond that. So we have brilliant individuals who work okay as a team due to time together and club units.

Frack it, time for Franco to be promoted. Sod 2026 I CBA with Toonie wasting another world cup!

[George Carlin]

Let me just repeat my bile from the other thread:

Both games yesterday consolidated my view that under this management, Scotland is simply never going to win the Six Nations. I have no doubt that St Shug is correct and players like Townsend as a manager. But that doesn't mean that his coaching will lead to Scotland driving pressurised games to winning conclusions through sensible decision making. It's a position oft stated by experts but worth repeating - Ireland got to no. 1 in the world by being able to problem solve as the game progressed, in real time. We apparently cannot do that.

To deny this is a coaching problem seems fairly desperate at this stage. If someone tells you that you have something on your face, it's not particularly wise to immediately reply "no, I haven't".

It's easy to romanticise what other coaches may or may not have done (the 'substitutes bench' problem) but it's hard to think that Vern Cotter wouldn't have swapped out his leadership team by now. To ship huge swathes of unanswered points and turn on penalties like a tap is a psychological problem - a collapse is a collapse and it has happened time and time again.

To Sam's point, losing to a very good Italian side at home is not a disgrace but the manner in which they did absolutely is. You can only choose from the player pool that you have but it's very hard to know what to do about this. Come back David Sole and lace those boots up, son.

Incidentally, if Scotland really does have a sports psychologist working with them, whatever they're doing categorically isn't working.

[NeilyBroon]

Part of me hopes we're pasted by Ireland to stop papering over the cracks. The other part would just like a triple crown so we have something different to the Calcutta cup.

I mean our best years have already been wasted by a middling coach and famous micro manager so might as well get something out of the last seven years...

[cakeordeath]

I don't think I have posted here for a number of years, but the performance yesterday has pushed me over the edge.

We scrapped past a dumpster fire of a Wales team
Got beaten by a Poopie French team (at home)
Beat a mediocre English team (at home)
Got beaten by an an Italian team who got nilled by the Irish

We will likely finish 4th now, possibly 5th. There is no progress. What is more frustrating ls that we are living in some SRU version of Groundhog Day. It's the same thing over and over again and the coaches don't seem to have the ability to combat it. Glasgow had the exact same issue with 40 minute performances under Wilson. That stopped under Franco so maybe there is a lesson to be learned there*


*joke we can't learn lessons.

[bsando]

Toonie himself admitted that he expected to be out of a job after the last World Cup. I think Leon MacDonald joining the All Blacks left the SRU with limited options. I saw an interview with him being asked if it was a toss up between a job with the all blacks or Scotland head coach prior to his eventual appointment with the AB’s.

[BigGee]

I imagine you mean Scott Robertson, not McLeod.

One is a world class rugby coach, the other a journeyman second row from my recollection.

But was SR ever really going to come to Scotland?

For my money, he was always nailed on as the ABs coach right from the end of the orevious WC.

Part of the reason Toonie was reappointed I am guessing was the lack of outstanding alternatives. The end of the last WC may well have been the right moment for him to move on but we are now where we are.

I can't see Toonie falling on his sword just yet though. I think he will want to take some of the youngsters on tour this summer and see if any of them might step up. The side certainly needs freshening up a bit, it is the same old players making the same mistakes as always and some if them do not gave the right pressure on their place in the team as they would if they played for another country.

All in all it has been a pretty dissapointing 6N for Scottish fans, though some hope of redemption still remains next weekend.

Sone players certainly owe Toonie and the long suffering fans a performance

[RDW]

It's probably fair to link out second half collapses with our lack of quality on the bench, which is a at least some part of it. We probably have one of the weakest benches in the tournament.

If you think of the Italy game we had two journeymen props who'd barely get a game for Edinburgh or Glasgow, a 9 who has been so off form for so long and a back 3 player who was not going to get on other than for injuries (meaning our centres were knackered and no-one to replace them). So that's only 3 bench players who you could say could come on and offer any meaningful impact, but even then something's going on with Ritchie.

Oh to have Sutherland ripping up trees again, Nel to find a time machine, any 9 to step up and a back row player to come on and really make a difference with abrasive carries or turnovers.

Our 15 by that point wouldn't exactly frighten most teams

Hepburn
Ashman
Miller mills
Cummings (knackered)
Skinner
Fagerson
Ritchie
Dempsey (knackered)

Price (slow and knackered even though he just came on)
Russell
VDM
Redpath (knackered)
Jones (knackered)
Steyn
Kinghorn (knackered)

[RDW]

We joke about Stafford but we probably could have done with his go forwards and generally solidity around the 60 minute mark, and he seems to be a decent leader for Glasgow.

I agree that Toonie needs to start widening the squad but I just can't see us learning much about players by playing USA and Canada this summer.

[mountain man]

Ali Price been on the Andy Goode diet? He looked rather porky when he came on.

[bsando]

I imagine you mean Scott Robertson, not McLeod.

One is a world class rugby coach, the other a journeyman second row from my recollection.

But was SR ever really going to come to Scotland?

For my money, he was always nailed on as the ABs coach right from the end of the orevious WC.

Part of the reason Toonie was reappointed I am guessing was the lack of outstanding alternatives. The end of the last WC may well have been the right moment for him to move on but we are now where we are.

I can't see Toonie falling on his sword just yet though. I think he will want to take some of the youngsters on tour this summer and see if any of them might step up. The side certainly needs freshening up a bit, it is the same old players making the same mistakes as always and some if them do not gave the right pressure on their place in the team as they would if they played for another country.

All in all it has been a pretty dissapointing 6N for Scottish fans, though some hope of redemption still remains next weekend.

Sone players certainly owe Toonie and the long suffering fans a performance

Leon MacDonald sorry

[BigGee]

Ali Price been on the Andy Goode diet? He looked rather porky when he came on.

It would not be the first time that Ali Price has let himself go a bit kn his career.

His conditioning and fitness were questioned by Dave Rennie at one stage, and he had to sit out a spell for Glasgow.

He does seem to be struggling with not being the starting SH any more and his performances for Edinburgh don't seem to be pushing him back into that slot either.

That could conceivably be his last game for Scotland. Ben White is our clear no.1 players now and I would like to see Dobie on the bench, who would surely have more caps by now barring a few unfortunate injuries.

The squad does definitely need a freshen up and Price and maybe a few others may have run their race.

[NeilyBroon]

It's probably fair to link out second half collapses with our lack of quality on the bench, which is a at least some part of it. We probably have one of the weakest benches in the tournament.

If you think of the Italy game we had two journeymen props who'd barely get a game for Edinburgh or Glasgow, a 9 who has been so off form for so long and a back 3 player who was not going to get on other than for injuries (meaning our centres were knackered and no-one to replace them). So that's only 3 bench players who you could say could come on and offer any meaningful impact, but even then something's going on with Ritchie.

Oh to have Sutherland ripping up trees again, Nel to find a time machine, any 9 to step up and a back row player to come on and really make a difference with abrasive carries or turnovers.

Our 15 by that point wouldn't exactly frighten most teams

Hepburn
Ashman
Miller mills
Cummings (knackered)
Skinner
Fagerson
Ritchie
Dempsey (knackered)

Price (slow and knackered even though he just came on)
Russell
VDM
Redpath (knackered)
Jones (knackered)
Steyn
Kinghorn (knackered)

It comes back to the 6:2, I had real doubts about it and I think after Saturday those doubts were proven right. If we're going to have two backs, have two impactful ones.

Patterson, Dobie (I know he's just back but we would have had a better performance from latter career Henry pyrgos, price was that bad, Dobie at least would offer SOMETHING), Healy could have come on to calm things down (careful now) or we could have had a bang in form Stafford come on, any of the above combos would have been miles better than what we had. We also need to seriously do some soul searching about our prop situation, our scrum was awful. Bhatti should be in really. Give the man an irn bru and send him on. Get Gordy Reid in to motivate the team with promises of katsu curry and give an inspirational talk on his fireman skills.

Back to 5:3 against Ireland, price has to be dropped completely from the extended squad, he was a good player about 5 years ago, definitely isn't now. Time to move forward.

I'd hope Toonie will fall on his sword if we're only on 2 wins, that is an untenable position, he may have the USSRU propaganda machine working overtime but this is one too many backwards steps. As I said, Franco needs to be promoted after this season with Glasgow, that is, if he wants the job, or we need to do some bloody good searching. We saw what happened with Wales and gatland when he was there too long, and he was actually a successful coach!

[jimbopip]

We joke about Stafford but we probably could have done with his go forwards and generally solidity around the 60 minute mark , and he seems to be a decent leader for Glasgow.

I agree that Toonie needs to start widening the squad but I just can't see us learning much about players by playing USA and Canada this summer.

It's telling that we're here on the Wailing Wall thread rather than the Objective Appraisal Of The Match thread.

Just after the match ESPN had this;

Metres made: 343 - 685
Carries: 92 - 177
Passes: 124 - 238
Kicks from hand: 30 - 25

Possession: 41% - 59%
Territory: 49% - 51%

Clean breaks: 5 - 6
Defenders beaten: 15 - 36

Rucks won: 79/82 - 127/130

Turnovers conceded: 11 - 15

Set pieces lost: 4 - 0

Tackles: 213/249 - 130/145

Penalties conceded: 5 - 12

The two areas where the Azzurri came out on top were Turnovers and Penalties. Other than that on any other day we would have been comfortable winners.
There was moment in the first half when Italy kicked into out 20, Dancer took the ball and kicked back then put his hand to the top of his right leg (top of the quad/groin area) after that he didn't look 100% to me. Aldi Price looked like someone who can't get a start for the MFL. So we lost control of the game? Well a half back partnership who were firing on all cylinders would have helped turn that round.
Would Stafford have stood up to Menoncello better than Redpath did? Well, if we're talking about smashing it up the middle then Glasgow don't notice a big drop off when he plays rather than Wee Shona. Same when it comes to leading the defensive line. If your 10 isn't attacking the line, which Dancer really wasn't, you need a 12 who can truck it up the middle to stop the defence drifting. When you're away from home and the opposition are role playing Rorke's Drift and they're the ones with the assagis assaggis big pointy sticks then a six foot five centre who can tackle all day long can help stem, if not turn, the tide.
I'm not even going to make the case for the House Elf over Aldi Price. Hornito ran the Italy defence ragged. Price walked them from one side to the other.
The frustrating thing is hat at 14-3 if we score next we win. If Hornito's try is allowed...we win. If your aunty had balls she'd be your uncle.
That is where we are this fine morning.

[Geordie]

I imagine you mean Scott Robertson, not McLeod.

One is a world class rugby coach, the other a journeyman second row from my recollection.

But was SR ever really going to come to Scotland?

For my money, he was always nailed on as the ABs coach right from the end of the orevious WC.

Part of the reason Toonie was reappointed I am guessing was the lack of outstanding alternatives. The end of the last WC may well have been the right moment for him to move on but we are now where we are.

I can't see Toonie falling on his sword just yet though. I think he will want to take some of the youngsters on tour this summer and see if any of them might step up. The side certainly needs freshening up a bit, it is the same old players making the same mistakes as always and some if them do not gave the right pressure on their place in the team as they would if they played for another country.

All in all it has been a pretty dissapointing 6N for Scottish fans, though some hope of redemption still remains next weekend.

Sone players certainly owe Toonie and the long suffering fans a performance

He's a very good lineout coach actually.....

[Geordie]

We joke about Stafford    but we probably could have done with his go forwards and generally solidity around the 60 minute mark   , and he seems to be a decent leader for Glasgow.

I agree that Toonie needs to start widening the squad but I just can't see us learning much about players by playing USA and Canada this summer.

It's telling that we're here on the Wailing Wall thread rather than the Objective Appraisal Of The Match thread.

Just after the match ESPN had this;

Metres made: 343 - 685
Carries: 92 - 177
Passes: 124 - 238
Kicks from hand: 30 - 25

Possession: 41% - 59%
Territory: 49% - 51%

Clean breaks: 5 - 6
Defenders beaten: 15 - 36

Rucks won: 79/82 - 127/130

Turnovers conceded: 11 - 15

Set pieces lost: 4 - 0

Tackles: 213/249 - 130/145

Penalties conceded: 5 - 12

The two areas where the Azzurri came out on top were Turnovers and Penalties. Other than that on any other day we would have been comfortable winners.
There was moment in the first half when Italy kicked into out 20, Dancer took the ball and kicked back then put his hand to the top of his right leg (top of the quad/groin area) after that he didn't look 100% to me. Aldi Price looked like someone who can't get a start for the MFL. So we lost control of the game? Well a half back partnership who were firing on all cylinders would have helped turn that round.
Would Stafford have stood up to Menoncello better than Redpath did? Well, if we're talking about smashing it up the middle then Glasgow don't notice a big drop off when he plays rather than Wee Shona. Same when it comes to leading the defensive line. If your 10 isn't attacking the line, which Dancer really wasn't, you need a 12 who can truck it up the middle to stop the defence drifting. When you're away from home and the opposition are role playing Rorke's Drift and they're the ones with the assagis assaggis big pointy sticks then a six foot five centre who can tackle all day long can help stem, if not turn, the tide.
I'm not even going to make the case for the House Elf over Aldi Price. Hornito ran the Italy defence ragged. Price walked them from one side to the other.
The frustrating thing is hat at 14-3 if we score next we win. If Hornito's try is allowed...we win. If your aunty had balls she'd be your uncle.
That is where we are this fine morning.

I know it obvious but this is a critical area. In the first half the Italians made unforced mistakes and Scotland were on the ascendancy...but they fixed that and all of a sudden the Italians got on top.
Same with England 2 weeks ago...we made 21 unforced errors or turnovers...you'll never win a game of rugby at this level doing that. They addressed it and beat Ireland yesterday.
It's critical that teams keep the unforced errors to a minimum...

[NeilyBroon]

We joke about Stafford    but we probably could have done with his go forwards and generally solidity around the 60 minute mark   , and he seems to be a decent leader for Glasgow.

I agree that Toonie needs to start widening the squad but I just can't see us learning much about players by playing USA and Canada this summer.

It's telling that we're here on the Wailing Wall thread rather than the Objective Appraisal Of The Match thread.

Just after the match ESPN had this;

Metres made: 343 - 685
Carries: 92 - 177
Passes: 124 - 238
Kicks from hand: 30 - 25

Possession: 41% - 59%
Territory: 49% - 51%

Clean breaks: 5 - 6
Defenders beaten: 15 - 36

Rucks won: 79/82 - 127/130

Turnovers conceded: 11 - 15

Set pieces lost: 4 - 0

Tackles: 213/249 - 130/145

Penalties conceded: 5 - 12

The two areas where the Azzurri came out on top were Turnovers and Penalties. Other than that on any other day we would have been comfortable winners.
There was moment in the first half when Italy kicked into out 20, Dancer took the ball and kicked back then put his hand to the top of his right leg (top of the quad/groin area) after that he didn't look 100% to me. Aldi Price looked like someone who can't get a start for the MFL. So we lost control of the game? Well a half back partnership who were firing on all cylinders would have helped turn that round.
Would Stafford have stood up to Menoncello better than Redpath did? Well, if we're talking about smashing it up the middle then Glasgow don't notice a big drop off when he plays rather than Wee Shona. Same when it comes to leading the defensive line. If your 10 isn't attacking the line, which Dancer really wasn't, you need a 12 who can truck it up the middle to stop the defence drifting. When you're away from home and the opposition are role playing Rorke's Drift and they're the ones with the assagis assaggis big pointy sticks then a six foot five centre who can tackle all day long can help stem, if not turn, the tide.
I'm not even going to make the case for the House Elf over Aldi Price. Hornito ran the Italy defence ragged. Price walked them from one side to the other.
The frustrating thing is hat at 14-3 if we score next we win. If Hornito's try is allowed...we win. If your aunty had balls she'd be your uncle.
That is where we are this fine morning.

I know it obvious but this is a critical area. In the first half the Italians made unforced mistakes and Scotland were on the ascendancy...but they fixed that and all of a sudden the Italians got on top.
Same with England 2 weeks ago...we made 21 unforced errors or turnovers...you'll never win a game of rugby at this level doing that. They addressed it and beat Ireland yesterday.  
It's critical that teams keep the unforced errors to a minimum...

Something that we got lucky with against Wales, came undone against France, were just out errored by England, undone against Italy. Question is will it be a half century to two penalties for Ireland this time?

[NeilyBroon]

https://www.606v2.com/t71426-ireland-v-scotland-dublin-6ns-2024-round-5#4129913

[bsando]

We joke about Stafford    but we probably could have done with his go forwards and generally solidity around the 60 minute mark   , and he seems to be a decent leader for Glasgow.

I agree that Toonie needs to start widening the squad but I just can't see us learning much about players by playing USA and Canada this summer.

It's telling that we're here on the Wailing Wall thread rather than the Objective Appraisal Of The Match thread.

Just after the match ESPN had this;

Metres made: 343 - 685
Carries: 92 - 177
Passes: 124 - 238
Kicks from hand: 30 - 25

Possession: 41% - 59%
Territory: 49% - 51%

Clean breaks: 5 - 6
Defenders beaten: 15 - 36

Rucks won: 79/82 - 127/130

Turnovers conceded: 11 - 15

Set pieces lost: 4 - 0

Tackles: 213/249 - 130/145

Penalties conceded: 5 - 12

The two areas where the Azzurri came out on top were Turnovers and Penalties. Other than that on any other day we would have been comfortable winners.
There was moment in the first half when Italy kicked into out 20, Dancer took the ball and kicked back then put his hand to the top of his right leg (top of the quad/groin area) after that he didn't look 100% to me. Aldi Price looked like someone who can't get a start for the MFL. So we lost control of the game? Well a half back partnership who were firing on all cylinders would have helped turn that round.
Would Stafford have stood up to Menoncello better than Redpath did? Well, if we're talking about smashing it up the middle then Glasgow don't notice a big drop off when he plays rather than Wee Shona. Same when it comes to leading the defensive line. If your 10 isn't attacking the line, which Dancer really wasn't, you need a 12 who can truck it up the middle to stop the defence drifting. When you're away from home and the opposition are role playing Rorke's Drift and they're the ones with the assagis assaggis big pointy sticks then a six foot five centre who can tackle all day long can help stem, if not turn, the tide.
I'm not even going to make the case for the House Elf over Aldi Price. Hornito ran the Italy defence ragged. Price walked them from one side to the other.
The frustrating thing is hat at 14-3 if we score next we win. If Hornito's try is allowed...we win. If your aunty had balls she'd be your uncle.
That is where we are this fine morning.

I know it obvious but this is a critical area. In the first half the Italians made unforced mistakes and Scotland were on the ascendancy...but they fixed that and all of a sudden the Italians got on top.
Same with England 2 weeks ago...we made 21 unforced errors or turnovers...you'll never win a game of rugby at this level doing that. They addressed it and beat Ireland yesterday.  
It's critical that teams keep the unforced errors to a minimum...

Something that we got lucky with against Wales, came undone against France, were just out errored by England, undone against Italy. Question is will it be a half century to two penalties for Ireland this time?

Just goes to show how damaging penalties at international level can be. I mean giving away a penalty and three points from the kick off was ridiculous from Scotland.

[bsando]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/cv2yp5n0j9eo

[NeilyBroon]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/cv2yp5n0j9eo

He's popular as ever!

It's not a great look and I don't like always moaning about it. I think we all recognise he has some achievements as Scotland coach and a decent enough record but the last 3 or so years has just been stagnation, the world cup second failure was really the last straw.

For Toonie to re-justify his post Scotland would have to still be in contest for the 6ns title, and should be 4/4. This year our rivals were there for the taking with the majority in transition or disarray, we have probably one of the most established squads, and we have scraped past two just barely. I'm sure Toonie will stay sadly, but I think it won't be long before it becomes untenable and he has to go.

[CaptainHaddock]

Well Scotland are nothing if not consistent. This is exactly the kind of underwhelming 6N campaign we have become used to.

Can you envisage any other top tier country continuing with a coaching set up that has so consistently failed to deliver? The failure of the SRU to address this has done a disservice to the game in Scotland, the players and Gregor himself (I think he would have grown more as a coach if he'd moved on to another challenge). At the end of the day the only thing that matters is results and we're just not getting them.

I don't understand why we didn't look to bring in someone like Jamie Joseph when he became available. He'd have brought the hard nosed mind set I think we needed. Similarly look at the great job the new Italian coach has done....in just a season.

The rot starts at the top and we're pretty rotten.

[NeilyBroon]

Well I'll be watching Clark Laidlaw with interest if we are indeed, stuck with Toonie until 2026. Also a bit of a left field choice but may be worth considering someone like Yannick Bru? He's already got bru in the name so is halfway there! Would be interesting to have a French coach, good for us psychologically? Hard to say!

Otherwise if he's out before the year end (which if we lose badly this weekend I think he will be or we'll have a poor summer tour/autumn, or both) then we need to consider Franco, promoting Tandy and giving him full autonomy to change the coaching team or someone from left field who's been with their team a while and has a contract renewal soon... The shortlist is very very short.

[EWT Spoons]

I’ve got to agree with RDW from several posts back. I’ve not been in the Toonie out gang, but I’m beginning to think that maybe it’s time for change.

This isn’t a kneejerk reaction to the Italy game, as I think a lot of us were looking at that game ahead of time with apprehension, but how we have performed this tournament in general. The Wales win felt like a defeat given how abysmal the 2nd half was, we had enough about us to beat France, but didn’t, England we managed to find something in the 2nd half and the Italy game was an embarrassment, not because we lost to Italy, but how we lost to them.

I’ve always believed Townsend was probably as good as we could get, given up until the last few years we’ve been absolute trash and as appealing to other coaches as being fisted by a porcupine. Given we’re actually (on paper) a half decent team, we might be able to attract a better calibre coach than previously and I suspect Toonie has taken us as far as he can.

The SRU needs a shake up from top to bottom as well. The continued decline of the U20s (who were already far from world beaters) is just shocking, and looking at the current full men’s team and the players coming through, this could be as good as it gets for many a year.

[mountain man]

Playing devils advocate slightly as a neutral but what should Townsend have done? Once on pitch there is little a coach can do bar subs so it's up to the players.
Scotland have shown they are good enough so is it down to coach or just a mental fragility in players?

[NeilyBroon]

Playing devils advocate slightly as a neutral but what should Townsend have done? Once on pitch there is little a coach can do bar subs so it's up to the players.
Scotland have shown they are good enough so is it down to coach or just a mental fragility in players?

Well take Glasgow as a recent example. Under Wilson they were mentally fragile, players all but gave up on trying to be selected, and we had the odd performance and still made it to the quarters but got utterly annihilated against Leinster.

Franco came in and the mentality almost changed overnight. Players seemed to want to play, they were being rewarded for form, young players were getting the right opportunities, and Glasgow are now in the top 3 in the second season with Franco after a quarter last year and have just got through to the last 16 of the champions cup.

I think Scotland's mental issues are cultural, and I always thought although we had big losses under VC we seemed a lot more bloody minded and the players really did throw themselves in. I think a lot of that is reflected in the differing attitudes of coaches. I'm not saying Vern's reign was perfect but he is largely responsible for starting a winning mentality in Scotland.

Toonie is notorious for micro management but if you watch any of his talks, he doesn't exactly strike you as the type of bloke you'll give 100% playing for. So it's the worst of both worlds really, and since coming under pressure he seems to have leant on his senior players to provide answers, which is fine but make one a leader, not 5. He seems to have this new mentality of "rugby by committee", meaning no-one on the pitch is actually giving any direction, it's a few talented individuals trying to steer a listing ship, one using the sails, one using the rudder, the others on oars with different drummers.

I said this before about Toonie, we've never really felt like a unit under him and have won through individual moments. The closest we came to feeling a cohesive team was 2020 after the world cup when Tandy came in but we then completely sacrificed any creativity.

[EWT Spoons]

Playing devils advocate slightly as a neutral but what should Townsend have done? Once on pitch there is little a coach can do bar subs so it's up to the players.
Scotland have shown they are good enough so is it down to coach or just a mental fragility in players?

It's a fair point, and I said this after the Wales game as well, but I have real question marks over Finn as captain, or for that matter half the team who are seemingly either captain/vice captains/assistant vice captains/assistant to the vice captains, and so on.

If there was any actual leadership on the field, the captain would have gotten the players together and reorganised, on both occasions during the Wales collapse and again during the Italy collapse.  They should have basics to fall back on, to calm things down and get a foothold in the game, instead we continue to try and play at 100mph with trick plays, offloads etc.

Finn came out after the Wales game saying players weren’t listening to him when he was saying not to go into rucks, if that’s the case, then he’s either not an effective leader, or the players don’t respect him as one, neither are great for a captain.

On his day Finn is a brilliant 10, I just don’t think adding captaincy to his list of responsibilities is working.  I know this isn’t really a fair comparison, but imagine if Laidlaw was still captain for Scotland, there is no way he would have let those 2nd half collapses happen.

[mountain man]

Yes I agree on Russell, brilliant player but maybe not necessarily captain material. I suspect Townsend made him capt as an appeasement after the fallout(?).

I will say I'm not convinced a capt in rugby is that vital, nowhere near say a cricket capt where decision made every 30 seconds but when heat is on galvanising team mates can make a diference.

[EWT Spoons]

That’s a tough one.

Finn has been given a lot more responsibility within the group anyway, as he seemingly has an active role in tactics/coaching, or at least that’s how it was portrayed in the Netflix doc. Which as an experienced 10 who is largely responsible for implementing play makes sense, depending on his level of influence.

I’d like to think that Finn was made co-captain, because he’s going to play every game for 80 mins and he knows the tactics because he helped shape them, but if Toonie had total faith in his leadership, we wouldn’t need to have co-captains, or quite so many vice captains. As Nelly says above, it’s by committee, which makes me wonder if Toonie has doubts about Finn’s ability to lead the team. I have no issue with having leaders on the pitch, but they don’t need a title to signify it, and whilst the captain should be open to input from the team, on the pitch it needs to be their voice and their decisions that lead.

If Toonie doesn’t think that Finn is the man to lead the team, but made him co-captain anyway, then that’s on Toonie and puts his coat on an even shooglier peg than it currently is.

[NeilyBroon]

That’s a tough one.

Finn has been given a lot more responsibility within the group anyway, as he seemingly has an active role in tactics/coaching, or at least that’s how it was portrayed in the Netflix doc.  Which as an experienced 10 who is largely responsible for implementing play makes sense, depending on his level of influence.

I’d like to think that Finn was made co-captain, because he’s going to play every game for 80 mins and he knows the tactics because he helped shape them, but if Toonie had total faith in his leadership, we wouldn’t need to have co-captains, or quite so many vice captains.  As Nelly says above, it’s by committee, which makes me wonder if Toonie has doubts about Finn’s ability to lead the team.  I have no issue with having leaders on the pitch, but they don’t need a title to signify it, and whilst the captain should be open to input from the team, on the pitch it needs to be their voice and their decisions that lead.

If Toonie doesn’t think that Finn is the man to lead the team, but made him co-captain anyway, then that’s on Toonie and puts his coat on an even shooglier peg than it currently is.

This is where we miss Mr Greig. Although he was glacial, his leadership qualities more than compensated at the times we needed to step back and control a game. John Barclay was another good leader and lead from the front, which Darge could be given the opportunity.

[bsando]

Tuipulotu and White were both missed on Saturday. White in particular is quite vocal and a strong game manager. Tuipulotu has shown great leadership for Glasgow and Scotland. Leaving white out seemed a good idea but with the benefit of hindsight perhaps it was not.

[NeilyBroon]

Tuipulotu and White were both missed on Saturday. White in particular is quite vocal and a strong game manager. Tuipulotu has shown great leadership for Glasgow and Scotland. Leaving white out seemed a good idea but with the benefit of hindsight perhaps it was not.

I thought at the time white should have been benched. I get he's played a lot but he is also a professional rugby player. This is why substitutions are so important. So many times we've said toonies subbing strategy is awful, it's also awful because the key players don't ever get a rest!

[EST]

So massively disappointed with the weekend, far more so than for our WC exit which everyone and their dog predicted.

I can't imagine having such fortuitous circumstances with which to go into the last weekend with a theoretical shout will come around again for a very long time, and still we can't seem to find the necessary consistency.

Just scunnered.

[Tramptastic]

Eurgh. Scottish rugby...

5 points from beating france. 3 points from beating Italy. We should be talking about a Grand slam but instead the chat is whether Toonie has run his course as HC.

Previous posts have discussed this but team discipline comes from team culture, fitness and a clear game plan. If the players know what they are doing, believe in the plan and have the fitness to enact the plan then it should work. One or 2 of these are missing. Probably belief or clarity - Thats toonies responsibility to fix. Two world cups we tried to run everyone off the park in the 1st 40. WHY?

I'll disagree with some regarding Russell as captain. I think he's matured and he's been playing sensibly. As a captain your job is to inspire or lead or direct. Russell, i would imagine, is the 3rd kind. That suits and is reflective of Toonie. Ritchie looked to be the 1st kind. Darge? who knows, maybe the 2nd.

If we are talking replacements, Smith is not the right man. His point scoring strats is in 7s, not 3s. This doesnt work at international level, you need to be pragmatic. Smith really gets culture and vibe. He'd be great for working on the player pathway. Fpr international hiring though, the cupboard is a bit bare right now.

Scotland have suffered since Gray (coach) left with Cotter. Cotter seemed to get creating the right vibe (like Gatland) and didnt go in for micromanaging. Gray (coach) brought so much technical knowledge and b@stard to the breakdown. He left because of the way the SRU treated Cotter. Good going SRU. Afterwards SA hired him ahead of the 2019 WC after seeing what the scottish forwards did to SA in the summer of 2016/17. Go figure.

I'd like to see a Kiwi or a saffer hired. John Dobson would be cracking i reckon

[R!skysports]

Sadly this was all so predictable and I think it is really time to face facts that we are a bang-average side.

We keep talking about this generation as being golden, but they have not proven it consistently. Every year we have the one off game that is fantastic, followed by 2-3 that are rank - the one game gets us up and we start to believe that we have a great side, just to have hope crushed on the rocks of despair.

Even VDM is so hot and cold he could be a Swedish sauna and plunge pool

This year has actually been so stress-free as I set expectations at a 4th place with a chance of third and it has made me less anxious not having the hope. The only one I really really wanted was beating Wales as that has been so tough to do for too many years.

Wales, we so nearly (and probably should have lost with that second half)
England - we created so little and had to rely on some individual magic
France - they were so poor, we should have put them to the sword, but allowed them to stay close
Italy - While much improved, once you get in front like that, you should be composed.
Ireland - a cricket score to round it off

Ah, onto the Lions selection threads for the next year where we will be done to the usual 4-5 (and deserved)

We can not call this team a golden generation when they fail repeatedly (6Nations, World cup) to show anything beyond an individual game or 2


Yours.....a very weary supporter :-)

[Boston Exile]

My wife made a telling observation Saturday evening.  When Glasgow or Scotland lose a game they should win or have performed abysmally, then I am in a bad mood or down for the weekend.  Saturday evening I seemed resigned, personally I just felt numb - I couldn't even simply be upset.  

Think we all recognise there is a good squad of players available, we actually have depth in all but 2 or 3 positions. The last few years the opportunity was there to challenge for the 6N and at least go deeper in the RWC.  There have been some great performances sure but as I look back on it we've seriously underperformed.  The hot and cold (mainly lukewarm) sequences tell me the preparation is deficient, maybe it reflects the inconsistent nature of Townsend as a player (capable of great heights and some real lows). Beating England and Wales is not such a big deal at the moment.

I won't shout anymore at the indiscipline of players who seem determined to sabotage all the good work, I am just too tired and maybe the wife is right, resigned to our fate.  The hurt hasn't made me angry, just numb.

Maybe in a day or two I will come back with something more positive, who knows, it's in our DNA now to beat Ireland (unlikely but possible) or maybe Saturday night I just won't feel anything...

[CaptainHaddock]

Sadly this was all so predictable and I think it is really time to face facts that we are a bang-average side.

We keep talking about this generation as being golden, but they have not proven it consistently. Every year we have the one off game that is fantastic, followed by 2-3 that are rank - the one game gets us up and we start to believe that we have a great side, just to have hope crushed on the rocks of despair.

Even VDM is so hot and cold he could be a Swedish sauna and plunge pool

This year has actually been so stress-free as I set expectations at a 4th place with a chance of third and it has made me less anxious not having the hope. The only one I really really wanted was beating Wales as that has been so tough to do for too many years.

Wales, we so nearly (and probably should have lost with that second half)
England - we created so little and had to rely on some individual magic
France - they were so poor, we should have put them to the sword, but allowed them to stay close
Italy -  While much improved, once you get in front like that, you should be composed.
Ireland - a cricket score to round it off

Ah, onto the Lions selection threads for the next year where we will be done to the usual 4-5 (and deserved)

We can not call this team a golden generation when they fail repeatedly (6Nations, World cup) to show anything beyond an individual game or 2


Yours.....a very weary supporter :-)

But that's probably why I think we need a change at the top. We may only be a bang-average side but we've seen time and time again that with the right coach there can be huge changes in how a team performs (Eddie Jones's - Japan) (Jamie Joseph - his first stint at the Highlanders), (Early years Wales with Gatland), (Quesada with Italy right now) (Robertson when he took over the Crusaders) teams can become better than the sum of their parts. With Townsend it sometimes seems like the team regress the longer they are with him. The challenge is what is the right kind of coach for this collection of players.

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