The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub

First topic message reminder :

Welcome to the virtual rugby pub - a place where you can come in for a sly beverage and discuss whatever's on your mind, or just eavesdrop on the regulars if you fancy a break from all the rugby chat.

The only rule in this pub is one of mutual respect for everyone in it, oh and no defacing the Tommy Bowe photo on the bar. That's a banning offence

So pull up a chair....what'll it be?

Gibbo! Why does this not happen week in week out then? Because some kind hearted volunteers run outreach centres? Come on! They are scum, but it takes quite a big trigger to set off large scale and widespread rioting. If you don't get why you can't solve it. We could of course bring back hanging and promote eugenics. Otherwise the social ills of our large cities have to be addressed by civilised means (I include incarceration of perpetrators in that in case you are wondering).

rugbydreamer wrote:ha I did wonder what you meant Stag. What's the perk then?

Ireland v England transport and hotel paid for. and its work so i get another days hokiday

Glas, I know you're not, and I agree that long term we need to look at the causes of things like this, but it is obvious that society is the cause.

We live in a time where the rights of the offender are more important in the eyes of the lawmakers than the rights of the victim, and there is little punishment for continued wrongdoing. The government do not see the damage they cause with decisions on where they make cuts and what they fail to address with legislation. They do not see it because they do not deal with what happens as a result, yet the people who do have to deal with the effects of their policies, namely the police, bear the brunt of everybodies anger.

It pisses me off and I am sorry if it seems like I am directing it at people in here as I don't mean to.

red_stag wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:ha I did wonder what you meant Stag. What's the perk then?

Ireland v England transport and hotel paid for. and its work so i get another days hokiday

why is there no envy emoticon?! that's amazing Stag

Evening all.

Is there going to be anarchy everytime I poke my head around the door?

When I heard of the terrible events in Norway the other week was I wrong to feel relieved that Gibbo's son was not in that part of the country?


Hound,

I hope you get home safely or find a safe place to stay until you can.

Im very happy with it have to say Dreamer.

Sheesh. I used be an International Socialist Hippie. Now, I am slightly Right of an Atilla De Hun/Maggie Thatcher love-child. Is amazing how ya get more Right-Wing as ya get older Ted... Down with this kind of ting.

Sorry. I'm not belittling this scarey scenario, which is now going viral by Tweeting morons from other cities as we speak... Just trying to... well ya know. It's very emotive for those directly concerned. Who have to deal with this on a day-to-day basis.

I'll stop now. Dont want to cause a Pub riot.

Peace and Love.

I would be if I were you too Stag, that really is brilliant

Newsnight is full of people who know sweet f a.

rugbydreamer wrote:
Newsnight is full of people who know sweet f a.

Edwina Currie ? I worked in the food supply industry when she made her comments about eggs.

nottins wrote:One woman was asked why she had stolen some goods from Currys. Her reply was, "I'm just getting my taxes back".

What is the difference between you and me (I presume you are not out in your hoody Nottins) and her then? I grumble about my taxes, but pay up and smile nevertheless, but I wouldn't go out and steal from some innocent business. I'll tell you what it is, we were dragged up to respect other people their property and the law. These people are taught to despise authority, to respect only those who are stronger physically than them (the law of the jungle) and to have no respect for other peoples property at all. But you can't kill them or stop them breeding so what are you going to do? Call them scum. Place the blame for all society's ills at their doors. Zero tolerance it's called.

BUT in the last year criminal behaviour on the part of MP's, Bankers, Police and media on a massive scale has not been anywhere near appropriately punnished. Why? Because they are the establishment. Moral relativism does not interest me, but you can't ignore the dichotomy.

The_Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Notch - being 'relieved' at this shoite happening somewhere other than where you live, isn't sitting well with me. It shouldn't be happening at all. Anywhere.

Well, for years people from 'mainland' Britain have looked down on where I'm from, on my country, because of the actions of a number of mindless thugs. I feel a lot of sympathy for the many millions of people in London not involved in this, but having said that... I am quite sick of the media narrative that NI is a basket case and everywhere else is perfect. Sorry if that offends you. Shoite happens all over the world unfortunately.

I think this goes to show it can happen anywhere given the right circumstances. Human nature is a tinderbox, and civilization is but a veneer.

Right well I'm off to bed, nos da pawb, and for all the regs affected by these goings on in London, stay as safe as you can

Glas a du wrote:Gibbo! Why does this not happen week in week out then? Because some kind hearted volunteers run outreach centres? Come on! They are scum, but it takes quite a big trigger to set off large scale and widespread rioting. If you don't get why you can't solve it. We could of course bring back hanging and promote eugenics. Otherwise the social ills of our large cities have to be addressed by civilised means (I include incarceration of perpetrators in that in case you are wondering).

Social ills. Yes and there are lots of problems to be solved at base-level. Totally agree with you there. But 99% of working-class people are not doing it. And they have a right to be angry and march... and should... But this is anarchy in the UK.

One or two ring-leaders see an opportunity and organise the morons. I was in the middle of the Notting Hill Carnival riots back in the 70's. Brixton riots too. I know all about it. I was carrying my then child in a papoose, when the Police charged. I avoided being trampled to death by doing a fosbury-flop over a garden wall. They WERE at fault then. But that was a race-issue.
As for the Trigger - it is Twitter and Facebook. One message can be picked up and spread like a moronic virus. That's how it all kicked-off. That was the vehicle.



MrsP.

LDCPete wrote:

Notch wrote:It's kind of nice in a funny way, seeing this happening somewhere else in the UK or Ireland. Or not nice, but a real relief. It's not so inherently bad in Belfast, other places have riots too!

Like when you have an embarrassing rash, you're kind of glad when you find out someone else has it too because you're not uniquely troubled.

Notch

Whilst I am sure you meant no offence, please be careful about how you phrase things mate and I am saying this as a mate not a mod. There is nothing nice about it. My eldest daughter is due to be in a production of jungle book at a theatre in Croydon and was at rehearsals this evening, which had to be cut short because it was not safe. It is frightening and upsetting, and I have friends from my force who have been sent up to help, and are faced with petrol bombs amongst other things being thrown at them.

Yeah, I know exactly what thats like because for many people for many years in Northern Ireland.

We have a very matter of fact point of view about it, because it is just something that happens a lot. You just shrug your shoulders and get on with it. I get the sense you're not used to this. If it goes on for 30 years then you'll probably be talking about it matter-of-factly like I am. Humans can get used to anything really.

nottins wrote:One woman was asked why she had stolen some goods from Currys. Her reply was, "I'm just getting my taxes back".

Absolutely ridiculous.

She should have robbed a bank, the silly goose.

LDCPete wrote:Glas, I know you're not, and I agree that long term we need to look at the causes of things like this, but it is obvious that society is the cause.

We live in a time where the rights of the offender are more important in the eyes of the lawmakers than the rights of the victim, and there is little punishment for continued wrongdoing. The government do not see the damage they cause with decisions on where they make cuts and what they fail to address with legislation. They do not see it because they do not deal with what happens as a result, yet the people who do have to deal with the effects of their policies, namely the police, bear the brunt of everybodies anger.

It pisses me off and I am sorry if it seems like I am directing it at people in here as I don't mean to.

I understand Pete and all I can say I'd that I'm not aiming anything at you or decent Bobbies but at your top brass. I also understand your frustration, but the Court adding a few months or years onto prison sentences just spreads the jam even thinner.

Everything is now run with no slack. That is fine in the case of 1:500 year floods but then you get a 1:1000 year flood and disaster ensues. There is no slack in the Police to deal with this. There us no slack in the justice system, local authorities, public services, you name it.

Well Flip me Ken Livingston is blaming this on cuts. Of course they don't help, but do you think taxing out the "recovery" would! Give me strength!

morning folks
I dont usually come into your pub, but on turning on the telly 10,000 miles away,I had to just say i hope all you English guys are alright,I dont pretend to know the right or wrongs of the issues behind the rioting, but from here it does look very nasty especially if it is allowed to get completely out of control...

Well, its inevitable that there are going to be more riots as the cuts take hold. People aren't stupid. They can see that their own economic situation is going to be eroded because of the financial crisis (past and future) that they didn't cause. There is no political outlet for this anger; there's no democratic outlet.

And so you're probably going to get some riots. That's just human nature. We're only a few missed paycheques away from a lynch mob.

Yes Notch, but the upper class bankrupt merchant banks, the middle class fiddle their expenses and the working class steal things they can't otherwise afford. It's all criminal.

Red Ken never misses an opportunity. Tasteless in this case. He wants his job back from Mad Boris. Politicians eh?



Glas and Pete, ye guys are in the inner-circle, knowledge and experience-wise. I respect both of your views. Somewhere in-between are the answers? Or even... the right questions?

Gibbo, is the right question: "how do we harness some of the energy and imagination of these usually apathetic youngsters to ensure England win the 2015 WC?"

I'm home (cheers dreamer). The cab controller was being a bit of a drama queen. Not as bad as he portrayed it. Some kids tried to start something but Harrow Police dispersed them pretty quickly according to my driver. Yup, they did get a cab to me, albeit 5 minutes late. I was appreciative.

This crepe is not a great advert for the Olympics next year. The main thing is I hope it's sorted out and no innocent people get hurt.

Glas a du wrote:Yes Notch, but the upper class bankrupt merchant banks, the middle class fiddle their expenses and the working class steal things they can't otherwise afford. It's all criminal.

Of course it is, I'm not condoning this but the more the political establishment protects the rich at the expense of the poor... well the more shoite is going to occur. I mean, look at Greece. It's just the way it goes. That doesn't make it right, violence is never right. But it happens all over the world and the West is no different.

It's funny (not funny 'haha', funny weird). I go on twitter and all I see is appalled and shocked comments from all the Brits and people from the wider world and people from Northern Ireland joking around. You do get desensitised to certain things over a period of time. You do become immune to it. How else do you survive?

I've seen the joke 'Thinking about heading back to Belfast for a few days to get away from all the rioting' come up a few times now.

Low Police presence after dark. Not a surprise I'm afraid. Half of my county has one officer on duty to cover it from midnight to 6am. This is going to get worse and worse over the next few hours.

So glad you're home safe Hound!

And I hope it stays quiet near you and gets quiet everywhere else.

Im a Politics student, doing my dissertation on Conservatism in the UK, specifically the transition from classical/thatcherite conservatism to neo-conservatism under Cameron.

All I can say is I've been predicting this for years - a return to the civil unrest seen under Thatcher, you knew the minute the conservatives got back into power this would happen.

This is the legacy of the baby boomers and their ultra conservatism and social elitism - RIP the Union.

Yeah, it's fairly inevitable alright. It's clearly going to get worse before it gets better as well.

Notch - what you said just didn't come across right. My adoptive father was from Cork. When he remarried, my stepmother was from the Ardoyne. Her sister's house got shot up pretty bad during the 70's. I am very aware of what happened in NI in those times, and am also aware that the bad guys (on both sides) haven't just melted away.

You be safe

Okay Hound. Don't worry, I wasn't perturbed. I just think it's curious how people in Northern Ireland have a different view on all this.

There's really no such thing as a good riot. I hope that all of the London regs in here stay safe. Stay inside and away from the areas in question.

You'll be grand if you're not unlucky enough to live in the areas in question.

Yeh, although apparently its all kicking off in Birmingham now as well.

To be fair to the conservatives the cuts are a result of us being up financial Poopie creek without a paddle for the foreseeable future. Criticise them all you want but throw in some perspective as well. We don't want to be the next country asking IMF for a bailout.

Right. That's enough pseudo politico-philosophical nonsense from me. Nos da.

Keep safe. Let's hope a grip is got on this.

The_Hound_of_Harrow wrote:I'm home (cheers dreamer). The cab controller was being a bit of a drama queen. Not as bad as he portrayed it. Some kids tried to start something but Harrow Police dispersed them pretty quickly according to my driver. Yup, they did get a cab to me, albeit 5 minutes late. I was appreciative.

This crepe is not a great advert for the Olympics next year. The main thing is I hope it's sorted out and no innocent people get hurt.

Hound, you be safe my friend. You too Pete.
have family in Ealing Bwdy. Its kicked-off there as well. Check Twitter, its going viral. They know the police are being stretched and are busy stretching them even further. Where are the parents of so many of these 12-14 year-old kids? Another and the main source of the problem. I really think the Army needs to get involved. Frighten the shoite out of em. Must make a strong stand.
Night regs.

Aye lets marhall law the bar stewards.

I can only see military involvement adding fuel to the fire.

Glas a du wrote:

nottins wrote:One woman was asked why she had stolen some goods from Currys. Her reply was, "I'm just getting my taxes back".

What is the difference between you and me (I presume you are not out in your hoody Nottins) and her then? I grumble about my taxes, but pay up and smile nevertheless, but I wouldn't go out and steal from some innocent business. I'll tell you what it is, we were dragged up to respect other people their property and the law. These people are taught to despise authority, to respect only those who are stronger physically than them (the law of the jungle) and to have no respect for other peoples property at all. But you can't kill them or stop them breeding so what are you going to do? Call them scum. Place the blame for all society's ills at their doors. Zero tolerance it's called.

BUT in the last year criminal behaviour on the part of MP's, Bankers, Police and media on a massive scale has not been anywhere near appropriately punnished. Why? Because they are the establishment. Moral relativism does not interest me, but you can't ignore the dichotomy.

Great post.
In the case of these kids though, morals and an understanding of who caused the financial crisis, do not come into it. This is great craic and a chance to let off some testosterone-fueled, Summer Holiday steam to them. Its when and if the real activists get involved and use it as a tool to poke the Tories and the Establishment in the eye... That's when it really kicks off.

Sweet Dreams.

Notch wrote:

The_Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Notch - being 'relieved' at this shoite happening somewhere other than where you live, isn't sitting well with me. It shouldn't be happening at all. Anywhere.

Well, for years people from 'mainland' Britain have looked down on where I'm from, on my country, because of the actions of a number of mindless thugs. I feel a lot of sympathy for the many millions of people in London not involved in this, but having said that... I am quite sick of the media narrative that NI is a basket case and everywhere else is perfect. Sorry if that offends you. Shoite happens all over the world unfortunately.

I think this goes to show it can happen anywhere given the right circumstances. Human nature is a tinderbox, and civilization is but a veneer.

Sorry Notch but get over it. Same thing happens here in Limerick that we seems to be submerged in gang violence and nowhere else has a similar problem. It's not true but that's just the way the media is. When somewhere else is suffering, it's not the time to bring up your own problems.

I have to laugh at the posts blaming young people for this....utter hilarity.

Of course none of this has anything to do with the baby boomers who own over 80% of the wealth in the UK and whose ultra conservatism and has destroying the fabric of society for so long.

What they have done to education and social welfare.... this was inevitable.

Now now Munsty, thats not a very balanced "Moderator" type comment.

Notch wrote:Now now Munsty, thats not a very balanced "Moderator" type comment.

I don't think it was trying to be.

ughh...too much Stella.

Gibson wrote:

Glas a du wrote:

nottins wrote:One woman was asked why she had stolen some goods from Currys. Her reply was, "I'm just getting my taxes back".

What is the difference between you and me (I presume you are not out in your hoody Nottins) and her then? I grumble about my taxes, but pay up and smile nevertheless, but I wouldn't go out and steal from some innocent business. I'll tell you what it is, we were dragged up to respect other people their property and the law. These people are taught to despise authority, to respect only those who are stronger physically than them (the law of the jungle) and to have no respect for other peoples property at all. But you can't kill them or stop them breeding so what are you going to do? Call them scum. Place the blame for all society's ills at their doors. Zero tolerance it's called.

BUT in the last year criminal behaviour on the part of MP's, Bankers, Police and media on a massive scale has not been anywhere near appropriately punnished. Why? Because they are the establishment. Moral relativism does not interest me, but you can't ignore the dichotomy.

Great post.

In the case of these kids though, morals and an understanding of who caused the financial crisis, do not come into it. This is great craic and a chance to let off some testosterone-fueled, Summer Holiday steam to them. Its when and if the real activists get involved and use it as a tool to poke the Tories and the Establishment in the eye... That's when it really kicks off.

Sweet Dreams.

It's very sad to be witnessing these events in London.

Most of us aware that the causes of this mayhem are due to simmering resentment of authority over a long period of time which was tipped off by an isolated tragic incident (or other similar recent injustices in the rioter's eyes). I can only agree that the scale of corruption by MPs, Bankers, Police, Media mentioned by Glas only intensifies the disparity of the gap between rich and poor.

However, why should all of those decent folks in between those two ends of the spectrum have to suffer the violent abuse, destruction of property and be made to pay for the damage? Sure, there may be serious flaws in the educational system and social security net and a genuine perception that "we didn't create the current difficult situation - therefore we are entitled to some 'payback' (in the criminal sense of the word)... and we don't care who we disadvantage" but it is no excuse in my opinion and will inevitably lead to worse situations in other parts.

Ironically, the more resources the Police or Army contribute to these massive riots - the heavier we all will fall. It's not a very good outcome for anyone, is it?

It still brings a tear to my eye when I see images of London during The Blitz (or any other great city destroyed during war) and it is almost beyond my comprehension as to how those that survived these horrific ordeals even started to rebuild their lives, family, built & social infrastructures... in the course of the difficult years that followed. Imagine how these people would feel today - knowing that this destruction was perpetrated from within and by their 'own kind'?

All I can say is there is no excuse whatsoever for this kind of reaction. Perhaps the only way forward is an even more controlled police state with even more severe forms of punishment. Society, at this point in time (or at any point for that matter) simply cannot afford to go back into the unruly chaos of past uprisings throughout history. Health & Education is the key of course - but I fear too much damage has been done... particularly in the past 40 years or so.

Some of those 'kids' need to get away from their current 'comfort zone' - and realise there are better opportunities elsewhere. They must also be taught - that although the world is not always a fair place, it is only through making honest contributions to society through some form of legal economic or social production - that they will learn and understand the real value of their existence.

Maybe it's time to bring back a more modern form of Transportation. (forget the effin' reality shows...) The real thing! We sure could do with a high speed rail in this country, infrastructure planning and building, services & support for the mining industry. Plenty of decent work to be had. We are crying out for larger numbers of skilled/unskilled labour. Maybe some of the worst ones could be sent out here again for some retraining. Just a thought....

I can't believe that people are actually going out to 'watch' the riots! They were talking to one woman on the TV this morning who said she thought she'd go and see what was happening.......

Bore da pawb / good morning all. Except it's not a good morning, is it?

Shameful scenes in London (and now Bristol and Birmingham too). There's no justifying it.

a genuine perception that "we didn't create the current difficult situation - therefore we are entitled to some 'payback' (in the criminal sense of the word)... and we don't care who we disadvantage" but it is no excuse in my opinion

There is no excuse, but we must find the actual reason this is happening. The scary thing is that in the 80's the Bridgwater farm riot arose from a similar background, however there are stunning differences. Firstly the Met was truly institutionally racist at the time and there had been simmering resentment for some time, I'm not saying they are perfect now, but it is a very different animal now than it was then and the resentment is nowhere near as justified. Secondly, the trigger event to this one is upsetting to the boys family but in a wider context is not as serious as the trigger to the 80's rioting. For example the police withdrew from the streets, only patrolling in riot vans gang handed and in full riot gear. Whether it was deliberate or not, that stoked the rioters. There has been nothing like that provocation this time. Thirdly the extent of the riots and the way they have taken on a life of their own fuelled by social media. The most scary thing is though that they are now organising themselves London wide.

Hi all. Seems some people think the riots are just a game.

Stag, I heard a couple of eyewitnesses in Clapham saying that there were 12/13-year-olds strolling into a shop that had had its windows smashed, not bothering to hide their faces, laughing and joking amongst themselves, taking handfuls of stuff away, taking it home and coming back for more. You can't put such total disregard for what's right down to anger or being disadvantaged or 'oppressed.' I just can't understand such behaviour.