My Irish Six Nations Squad

First topic message reminder :

With little over a month to go before the games get under way, Declan Kidney is in camp with some of the squad this week already reviewing the RWC and planning ahead to the six nations.

God willing he has decided on a method of attacking the opposition other than launching Ferris, SOB and Healy at the oppositions defence. There are a lot of things Ireland are good at (like defence, lineout, the breakdown) but we really need to become a modern team in regards to attack. We are still very set in our 2009 ways, with forwards being clumsy and not having the skills to play a high tempo game and the backs rarely breaking the line and not running enough dummy lines.

One would assume the squad will be named in the next 3 weeks or so, that in mind I felt I'd give the squad a bash myself and make a concious effort to do a few things:

a) do well in the competition
b) reward form
c) encourage attacking rugby
d) blood some players [be it as starting for the first time or being included in the squad for the first time}

Bold+underlined=starting player
Underlined=bench
Italic=part of 30 man squad
anything else=extended squad


Props:
Healy-Ross-Court-Buckley-McAllister-Hagan
Healy and Ross are the obvious starters and with only one prop spot on the bench makes sense to put Court there. Buckley in there to cover TH. McAllister and Hagan have been doing ok this season and are young fellas we need to expose to this level of rugby and thus I'd want them in the training squad and then being released back to their provinces when/where possible.

Hookers:
Best-Cronin-Varley-Sherry
This is the logical choice as there is quite a gap in class between each of these players save Varley-Sherry but Sherry has been injured for some time.

Locks:
O'Connell-Ryan-O'Callaghan-Toner-Cullen-Tuohy
I think that Ryan has now surpassed O'Callaghan and should be considered a starter in the Irish team. I think Cullen has played very poorly since he returned from the RWC and that Toner has played very well and thus I would reward form and keep Toner in the 30 man squad.

Backrow:
Ferris-O'Brien-Heaslip-O'Mahoney-Jennings-McLaughlin-Ronan
I would continue with our RWC starting backrow as SOB seems to have been developing into a 7 more over the past 2 months or so. I would bring in Peter O'Mahoney as he has been playing better than most around him regardless of experience he also covers the entire backrow.

Scrumhalves:
Murray-Reddan-Boss-Marshall
I'd continue with the order of our RWC 9's however I think the gap between Boss and Reddan has closed considerably. Marshall beat TOL to the extended squad as I believe Marshall has been on fire and that TOL is a good athlete but a poor scrumhalf.

Flyhalves:
Sexton-O'Gara-Madigan-Keatley
I went for Sexton over O'Gara due to Sexton's better form as of late and also due to his attacking talent. I went for Madigan over keatley as Keatley is blowing hot and cold as of late and Madigan is in unbelievable form with ball in hand.

Centres:
McFadden-Darcy-Cave-O'Malley
I went for McFadden to start ahead of Darcy for a number of reasons but mainly due to how ineffective Darcy is in attack now, he can't break the gainline, rarely makes huge barging runs, his decision making is too slow and often poor. I'd play McFadden at 12 and Bowe at 13 due to his fantastic lines of running, physicality, support play and offloading and his ability to break the line while still being defensively solid and able to distribute. Earls I feel is an out and out winger, lacks the vision and distribution to be a centre, just my opinion though.

Back 3:
Kearney-Earls-Trimble-Bowe-Fitzgerald-Carr
Bowe is in as a winger but will play 13. Kearney at 15 with earls or Fitzgerald covering in Jones' absence. Fitzgerald gets 11 as he has been in very good form since the RWC. Trimble in also as Earls is not starting on the wing currently and Trimble is also playing very well at the moment IMO. Carr to be an extended squad player if his injury isn't too bad.


There ya have it:

Healy-Best-Ross
Ryan-O'Connell
Ferris-Heaslip-O'Brien
Murray-Sexton
McFadden-Bowe
Fitzgerald-Kearney-Trimble

Court-Cronin-O'Callaghan-O'Mahony-Reddan-O'Gara-Earls

I believe that team has a bit more attacking guile and creativity than it did in the RWC (excluding BOD of course). I think if the coaches can coach this team to attack and certain players play almost 'off the ball' this could be quite a slick and skillful team.

Dummy runners are crucial.
Backs running from depth at speed are crucial.
Forwards and backs attacking as one is crucial.
Our rock solid lineout and defence are crucial as is continuing our good work at the breakdown.

We need to blood some players more also, I'd like to see Cronin, Toner, O'Mahoney, Madigan and O'Malley getting some game time even if it is just 20 minutes against Italy or Scotland.

What do others think?
Is this the right squad?
Should Ryan be ahead of O'Callaghan?
Does Toner warrant Cullen's exclusion?
Does POM have what it takes to step up?
Does Marshall's good form warrant leaving TOL out?
Who would you pick Madigan or Keatley?
Does Darcy offer anything anymore worth keeping?
Who is the right call at 13?

Kidney has made a lot of mistakes but IMO I think its bonkers to say that the increased depth is not down to Kidney. He came in and said increaseing the pool of players internationally was his priority.

He gave so many players a chance and we saw compeition across the board.

I know that i got shouted down (red stag ) but it is time that ROG be phased out, only needed in emergencies. In short, on the bench but not a starter. As for 12 and 13, new blood please and i have no problems in trying a new combination immediately. I dont believe in picking D'Arcy simply for experience, he doesnt cut it anymore and with BOD out that makes room for this. I like the idea of Earls at 13 but 12 will be an issue.

but it's more too than just getting a good backs coach...it's about finding a rhythm that knows when to use brute force forwards dominated rugby and when to shift to the free flowing, finger touch stuff. At the moment that fluidity between the two units isn't there and it's not that the players are ineffective, they are confused. Sometimes it's so clear you can see it written large on their faces. These players are not novices, if they look confused it's because the blueprint is confusing.

We go with an initial plan (for example, against Italy it's usually to meet them head on in a grunt game and against England it's a much more dynamic high tempo style)

.... but if the plan goes wrong, we don't seem to be able to smoothly transit from the initial plan to a new one. We kinda get locked on to the failing plan until a few substitutes change the contour.

You shouldn't need substitutes to change the rhythm of a team, that should come out of necessity: when one route isn't working, change the texture. All players should be capable of playing more than one style, you shouldn't need specialists coming on to 'settle things down' or to 'begin kicking for territory'.

Ireland issue is more than a backs coach problem, it has an overall fuzzy overview and all too often a bunch of confused players.

Oh yes, as stag says, Its not all down to the provinces that Ireland has strength in depth, Kidney has also blooded alot of young players and given them that all important international experience and creating that healthy competition for spots.

fair enough rory but not many international teams have depth in every single position on the pitch save for maybe the all blacks.

red_stag wrote:Kidney has made a lot of mistakes but IMO I think its bonkers to say that the increased depth is not down to Kidney. He came in and said increaseing the pool of players internationally was his priority.

He gave so many players a chance and we saw compeition across the board.

I didn't say it wasn't down to Kidney, I said it was mainly down to the provinces. Kidney is able to pick more players because there are more players to pick.

Kidney has had two HEC cup winning squads to select from plus far better Ulster and Connacht sides. EOS didn't have anywhere near the same depth.

Strength of depth is a difficult one. Australia after the Reds success and the 3N success seemed to think they had loads of players in depth and things were all roses in that department. Admittedly they had a horror run of injuries but that depth was exposed as being somewhat of an illusion.

It´s one thing to have names in the hat that you think are capable of doing the job. But when those said players have to make the step up, whether they perform or not is more arbitrary. BOD is injured and Ireland have depth in that they have quite a few players they can pick there. But do you honestly think the team will function the same with the new player? Or if a front rower or two get injured, is the Irish scrum still going to be as good as it´s been operating? Because depth means a player comes in and the team doesn´t look poorer for it. There are very few teams truly blessed with depth and even a team like NZ have a lack of depth in several areas.

That right Kia, when people say Kidney has developed strength in depth what they mean is that he has numerous positions were the 1st choice player has 100+ caps and the 2nd choice 2 or 3 including the churchill cup. Thats the depth that Kidney has developed.

If ROG and Sexton for example got head colds at the same time there would be a meltdown of Irish society.

I always thought that taking raw talent from provincial (club) sides and giving them caps in order to give them experience was building strength in depth for an international team?

Boy did i get that wrong apparently. Kidney out

Our problems in centre atm I think is down to the coaching IMO. Even when performing catastrophically bad, the same centres would always start (D'Arcy and BOD). Now, with BOD is injured, and D'Arcy most likely going to start, we have an abundance of options at 13. I think we are clueless as to what our best centre partnership will be, or who our best 13 is, and that is because we waited far too long to blood a successor to BOD/D'Arcy. McFadden is being touted as the successor to D'Arcy, but how long will it be before he actually starts for Ireland?

Lets be honest, nobody really has a clue as to what our centre partnership is going to look like in the immediate future, or even for the next RWC. At this point it could be anyone, and it has been left until the very end of the careers of both BOD and D'Arcy. That to me is poor coaching. And it won't be helped if we play D'Arcy and Earls together.

We certainly had more depth than we used to have. Yea if ROG and Sexton were BOTH injured we by fecked. True but for years if ROG was missing we were fecked.

Since the grandslam we have seen big debate at hooker, prop, backrow, scrumhalf, winger and fullback.

It´s a difficult balance to blood a new player and keep your best players on the field. Should Kidney cut the strings entirely from ROG and bring in a new understudy for Sexton? Should Kidney bring in two new centres or keep D'Arcy around to give his outside centre someone experienced to nurse him through the transition?

If you give players opportunities at test level then you are building depth of course eirebilly. But there is a yawning chasm between saying we are building depth and we have great strength in depth. I find it incredible England fans can say they have great depth in centre at the moment. Plenty of names who are there to make the step up if called upon but that does not mean they are able to make the step up.

Let me clarify my point, Ireland now have a better strength in depth for most positions providing a healthy competition for spots than i have seen for many many years. Other countries have more and some less but for me Ireland is moving in the right direction.

I honestly belive that ROG should be in the squad still because he can still cut it but he should be more and more phased out. D'Arcy should not be starting or in the squad due to experience only as he simply does'nt have it anymore.

That means a new centre pairing and a gamble but one that i feel is important to make.

We should have been blooding a 13 to replace BOD long before now though. D'Arcy should have been replaced about 2 seasons back probably.

so in conclusion-

since kidney has taken we have built out our player pool and have more strength in depth. Both Kidney and the IRFU deserve credit for me. Kidney has taken a punt on the young talent (eg murray in world cup) which the IRFU sponsored provinces have produced.

The burning issue is when they take the field in the green jersey they are playing a style of play that a) does not entertain and b) does not get the required results. kidneys win/loss ratio is not great at all.

call me a heathen but i sometimes wonder if stephen jones penalty had denied us a grand slam would we have readapted ourselves and started playing a different brand of rugby especially with the rule changes

That would have been ideal Rory but i feel that Earls has enough internation experience to slot in there nicely. 12 is a huge issue, for too long D'Arcy has had a free ride due to his punderstanding with BOD.

red_stag wrote:We certainly had more depth than we used to have. Yea if ROG and Sexton were BOTH injured we by fecked. True but for years if ROG was missing we were fecked.

Thats bollix stag....we had Paddy Wallace....

Necessity is often the best coach. And now, out of necessity, we will have a 13 for the Six Nations that is not Brian O'Driscoll. He won't be coming from the bench and he won't be 'back next week'. The alternative, whoever he turns out to be, will have a run of games to either bed himself down into a new 'career' or he'll be an unmitigated disaster.

The beauty is that we now have no choice. We're going to find out something in the Six Nations about a new player in an old position. That to me is exciting. Indeed a few more injuries (not serious) to more familiar International names would really add to the buzz.

There is an Irish side out there that hasn't yet played together..there is a side out there that is more incisive, dynamic and belligerent than the one we are familiar with. But it'll be a series of injuries or suspensions that eventually pick it. I like the unknown.

Saying a player is past it is all too easy a call to make in hindsight. Actually I think he´s done a good job of blending youth and experience. Obviously it´s not been perfect.

When a player is captain and an integral part of your team, it´s very difficult to blood a new player. McCaw is a similar player for NZ and really there is no substitute. Todd is a possible replacement but that would be like bringing in Faletau - a bit of a gamble to put it lightly but one that could pay large dividends.

When someone gets injured, it´s very easy to say why weren´t we grooming anybody else? But when a player is playing well and you take him off people also say why the hell did you take him off?

Planning for injuries can often be impossible. Slade was chosen as the back-up to Carter and in the end Cruden did a better job but we needed Donald in the end to finish the job. How on earth can you plan ahead for that?

D'Arcy and BOD were the golden pairing but it´s very easy to discard a player but look at what you might miss out on. Mealamu, Muliaina, Nonu all had average seasons in 2009. There might have been the temptation to cull them and bring in somebody new. Then look at how they performed in 2010. Managing your squad and getting the right balance is a lot more difficult than it seems.

roddersm wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
A lot has also been said about DK inheriting EOS's side, in some ways that is correct but EOS could only take Ireland so far and DK has taken them further whilst also phasing out some of the older players and bringing in some of the promicing youth. SOB and Ferris to name but two, i would be suprised if EOS had looked at them as early as DK did.

Don't agree with any of that. O'Sullivan took Ireland to 2nd in the World rankings and but for a bounce of a ball would have won at least 1 GS. Every season under O'Sullivan, until 2008 we were in the mix for the 6N title. We beat Australia and SA and came close to beating the ABs on a number of occasions. We also reached the QF of the RWC with a far less experienced squad of players than Kidney had.

O'Sullivan was the 1st coach to bring in a sport psychologist to Ireland and brought in the pre season conditioning block which helped us compete physically with the SH teams. EOS outstayed his welcome and was a poor man manager but he helped raise the bar for Irish rugby and was an innovator as opposed to Kidney who is simply a delegator.

Under Kidney we have no consistancy, no game plan and since 2009 haven't looked like winning a 6N title.

Rods, would the fact that Kidney has a Masters in Psychology trump Eddie getting a sports psychologist in? After all, he did that long before anyone thought of it

SecretFly wrote:Necessity is often the best coach. And now, out of necessity, we will have a 13 for the Six Nations that is not Brian O'Driscoll. He won't be coming from the bench and he won't be 'back next week'. The alternative, whoever he turns out to be, will have a run of games to either bed himself down into a new 'career' or he'll be an unmitigated disaster.

The beauty is that we now have no choice. We're going to find out something in the Six Nations about a new player in an old position. That to me is exciting. Indeed a few more injuries (not serious) to more familiar International names would really add to the buzz.

There is an Irish side out there that hasn't yet played together..there is a side out there that is more incisive, dynamic and belligerent than the one we are familiar with. But it'll be a series of injuries or suspensions that eventually pick it. I like the unknown.

I enjoy reading your posts Fly - you are quite the poet

I actually have a very positive feeling going into the 6N. I dont have hig expectations but believe that Ireland will play some decent matches.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:We should have been blooding a 13 to replace BOD long before now though. D'Arcy should have been replaced about 2 seasons back probably.

Keith Earls has got quite a bit of game time at 13 for Ireland. I know he has played there against Wales, France and England and Russia for Ireland and he has been swithed into the centre other times too.

Sin é wrote:
Rods, would the fact that Kidney has a Masters in Psychology trump Eddie getting a sports psychologist in? After all, he did that long before anyone thought of it

That depends on what branch of psychology Kidney has his masters in Sin.....I mean being an expert in psychoanalysis isn't going to help the team perform is it?....

It was actually George Hook and EOS that brought them to Connacht I heard...they were way ahead of their time

And is Earls really the answer? Has he really been considered the replacement for BOD? If so, I am disappointed. Earls is a great, highly dangerous outside back. A centre he is not.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:And is Earls really the answer? Has he really been considered the replacement for BOD? If so, I am disappointed. Earls is a great, highly dangerous outside back. A centre he is not.

I think that he is being groomed as BOD's replacement Rory. He hasnt done a bad job there when i have seen him play. He is a good finisher as well which is desperately important for a 13.

His distribution is not up to it. His positional defence as a 13 is not up to it. His finishing ability, is fantastic. Where will a player get the most chances to use his finishing ability? In the back three. Earls to me is either a winger or a fullback. In fact, I would love to see him play at full back more.

The problem is hes a finisher and nothing else Billy and you need a lot more to play in the midfield. He has zero awareness of what is going on around him in attack or defence. He's done well in cameo's at centre or against minnow sides but thats about it. Tuilagi made mincemeat out of him in the summer.

I dont think that his defence is that bad or his positioning in the line either for that matter. There is a point to be made about his distribution though but i am sure that he will get better.

His positioning in an atacking line has always been very impressive to me as well. I think that he is the best placed player to replace BOD.

I think Earls has actually done quite well at 13. Very poor for the Tuilagi try last year but overall whether for Munster or Ireland has generally done quite well whenever he played there.

He broke onto the scene at Munster as a 13 and was outstanding in the HEC quarter finals there. He played there a bit for the Lions and played there for Ireland. He was playing there last week for Munster against Connacht and had seriously good handling for the Sean Scanlon try.

I really won't be too worried whether we play him or Cave or McFadden or O'Malley there. None of them are BOD. But I'm happy to see Earls play there against Castres, Northampton and Wales.

roddersm wrote:He has zero awareness of what is going on around him in attack or defence. He's done well in cameo's at centre or against minnow sides but thats about it. Tuilagi made mincemeat out of him in the summer.

A lot of exaggeration there. He clearly doesnt have "zero awareness" thats just silly. He wouldnt be a professional player if thats the case. And he was not made mincemeat out of. He was beaten on the outside on one occasion but overall I thought was actually solid enough in defence. In fact our defense that day was excellent really. It was the heap of turnovers we conceded.

red_stag wrote:

roddersm wrote:He has zero awareness of what is going on around him in attack or defence. He's done well in cameo's at centre or against minnow sides but thats about it. Tuilagi made mincemeat out of him in the summer.

A lot of exaggeration there. He clearly doesnt have "zero awareness" thats just silly. He wouldnt be a professional player if thats the case. And he was not made mincemeat out of. He was beaten on the outside on one occasion but overall I thought was actually solid enough in defence. In fact our defense that day was excellent really. It was the heap of turnovers we conceded.

Well Tuilagi scored with his first touch from 1st phase and Earls couldn't even lay a finger on him and Mike Tindal was MOTM. Thats how poor our midfield was and I think mincemeat was being kind.

We weren't even able to manufacture a linebreak or scoring opportunity and considering that is likely to be our midfield in the 6N then we are in trouble.

red_stag wrote:I think Earls has actually done quite well at 13. Very poor for the Tuilagi try last year but overall whether for Munster or Ireland has generally done quite well whenever he played there.

He broke onto the scene at Munster as a 13 and was outstanding in the HEC quarter finals there. He played there a bit for the Lions and played there for Ireland. He was playing there last week for Munster against Connacht and had seriously good handling for the Sean Scanlon try.

I really won't be too worried whether we play him or Cave or McFadden or O'Malley there. None of them are BOD. But I'm happy to see Earls play there against Castres, Northampton and Wales.

O'Malley isn't a good choice at this point. He must be behind Griffin from Connacht now, who outplayed him. To me it should be Cave, with Spence/Griffin coming in over the next few seasons to challenge.

How dare you say that rodders exagerates stag......

Can anyone really think of a more experience international player to replace BOD at 13 right now?

eirebilly wrote:How dare you say that rodders exagerates stag......

..... ok well maybe a little sometimes.......

I think he should be a winger, but I'm open to the idea of him being our 13. Distribution can be improved over time, and at least we know he'll be a threatening player, the opposition defence will have to watch.

rob henderson still about to play 12. get some go foward ball. fag hanging out of his mouth. clear space for our outside backs

i know its stating the obvious but wales is an absolutely massive game for kidney. if we lose and then in Paris the next week we could be starting at 4th in the 6 nations. if we win then hopefully confidence will flow, we will give a good account of ourself in paris (maybe nick a win) and all is rosey again

I miss those Irish players with home counties accents.

Y Ci wrote:I miss those Irish players with home counties accents.

We still have them in soccer.

But fear not we have lots of Ulstermen who are basically English like Dan Tuohy, Andy Kryiacou and Paddy Wallace. Tom Court is an Aussie convict too.

haha. dion o cuinnegain remember him the saffer. fastest irish player at the time playing 2nd row or flanker. liked a manic gallop up the pitch

Never knew Wallace was English.

Y Ci wrote:Never knew Wallace was English.

Neither does Wallace....

He mightn't be English but he's so unlikeable he may as well be

He passes like a Pom

Are you Australian?

No, just a guy who is struggling to find fresh ways to poke fun at Paddy Wallace. He's actually quite a good player, but he divides opinion in Ireland.

Difficult to find a player who doesn't divide opinion in Ireland!

red_stag wrote:No, just a guy who is struggling to find fresh ways to poke fun at Paddy Wallace. He's actually quite a good player, but he divides opinion in Ireland.

he also divides his bootlaces between boots... which might actually be the kernel of his problems

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Difficult to find a player who doesn't divide opinion in Ireland!

Instead of two players for every position, we have one player divided into two positions..if he's lucky and the knives are blunt

kia mate. we agreed earlier on 10 of starting 15. we are doing well here really well. we have even agreed on a starting out half

you would have loved some of the threads around last years 6 nations and world cup. epic threads with 700plus responses, subplots everywhere fighting making up laughing joking fighting again making up.

all a bit of craic. i rarely post on leinster board. boring being as good as we are

We probably won't win the 6 Nations. But nobody can't beat the Irish ability to endlessly talk shoite about everything and anything.