Is the Rabo a serious competition?

First topic message reminder :

Ulster fielded many debutants for the away fixture against Leinster and got smashed 42-13 then made 15 changes (15!!!) for their home fixture against Munster today and smashed them 33-17. According to a Welsh commentator it was a Munster 3rd string that took the field.
In Wales this evening we witnessed a much changed Turk side after their home win against the O's, take on Newport GD and got a lucky win. Not surprisingly Cardiff have many players "injured" or "ill" for the new year's day away fixture against the O's.
I wonder what the Leinster team will be at Cardiff on Jan 7th?

do what is best

What you think is "best" is keeping the Rabo down, can't you see?

To be honest Glas I can't. What do you expect to happen.

It's not keeping the Rabo down it's promoting their players allowing them to progress from academies into the league, from the league to HEC and then onto International level.

But then people complain because the players who have progressed to international level reaching the next level are missing for Rabo games - well you can't have it all ways you can either have players being managed throughout the season to play in all competitions, you can have a system like in Ireland (but a bit more severe) where the union takes players out of Rabo match day squads and these players only consistenly play in the HEC and Ints, or you could have a system like the English football Premiership where the clubs/regions refuse to release their players for internationals and you don't get to see the best play for Wales/Ireland/Scotland but the internationals play consistenly for the Rabo teams.

(*I know only one of these is practical, but these are the alternatives to the current system)

A thought has been mentioned on other forums to reduce the amount of teams in the HEC. Take away another couple of Rabbo teams, English teams and Top 14 to make it a tougher competition.

Adds more qualification to the competition. 2 Welsh and 2 Irish, 2 Scots, 2 Italian, 4 French, 4 English.

The Welsh and Irish would never accept that in a million years.

It would have to be 1 Italian and 1 Scottish with 3 each from Wales and Ireland.

Unless the Amlin was revamped with a much higher status and prestige (and prize money) to mean it wasn't such a financial hit for the teams being out of the HEC - that would be quite interesting as a competition, but at the same time I do like the HEC as it is

I'm not saying that it needs to be reduced. There would be the same amount of teams, but the leagues have the opportunity of grabbing the last two places by one of their teams winning the competitions. Its the only grown up way of doing it. Sooner or later the Rabo will have to grow up.

Why should the country that has produced 4 of the last 6 winners have their allocation reduced?

Success breeds success. Thats all it is. The Irish teams have done well in Europe and they have excellent attendances in the Rabo. The Irish derby a few months ago drew a crowd of 50,000 people. Munster often have crowds over 20,000 and Leinster are always at 18,000 for home games. Ravenhill is also always full.

However the other teams don't get good attendances and its no surprise to me that they are also the teams who haven't won in Europe.

When the Ospreys or Scarlets are Heineken Cup champions there will be no whinging about how poor the league is.

Alternatively the English will eventually get it through their thick skulls it is an agreement between rugby nations not leagues.

Glas a du wrote:I'm not saying that it needs to be reduced. There would be the same amount of teams, but the leagues have the opportunity of grabbing the last two places by one of their teams winning the competitions. Its the only grown up way of doing it. Sooner or later the Rabo will have to grow up.

Glas, to be honest I disagree that the league is childish somehow. It is simply a league that is 1 million per cent independent from the Heinken Cup. The English and French have their system. We have ours. We don't have a domestic league. We have a system that suits our needs and offers good rugby where the development is as important as the result in some matches. The same as any other league.

The difference is we say it.

There was also suggestions that there would have to be one less English, french, italian or Scots team so that the Winner of the Amlin had more to gain.

The up and down of that is that the winner of the Amlin may already have qualified through their National comp and then what do you do, the second?

Mickado wrote:Why should the country that has produced 4 of the last 6 winners have their allocation reduced?

1 who cares about the nation, if its a league it supersedes narrow parochial considerations, otherwise just go back to your inter-pros.
2 under my proposal Ireland would have had four HC places regularly

It does not matter which nation the qualifiers are from, just that they have earned their right to play HC rugby.

red_stag wrote:

Glas a du wrote:I'm not saying that it needs to be reduced. There would be the same amount of teams, but the leagues have the opportunity of grabbing the last two places by one of their teams winning the competitions. Its the only grown up way of doing it. Sooner or later the Rabo will have to grow up.

Glas, to be honest I disagree that the league is childish somehow. It is simply a league that is 1 million per cent independent from the Heinken Cup. The English and French have their system. We have ours. We don't have a domestic league. We have a system that suits our needs and offers good rugby where the development is as important as the result in some matches. The same as any other league.

The difference is we say it.

We certainly seem to have a lot more accordance between Region and Country in the Celtic countries than the minority countries that have stuck with the old Club system.

geoff998rugby wrote:The Welsh and Irish would never accept that in a million years.

It would have to be 1 Italian and 1 Scottish with 3 each from Wales and Ireland.

Sure because that would be fair. The Welsh clubs need to improve a bit more.

Will a Welsh team ever win the HC?

Glas a du wrote:I'm not saying that it needs to be reduced. There would be the same amount of teams, but the leagues have the opportunity of grabbing the last two places by one of their teams winning the competitions. Its the only grown up way of doing it. Sooner or later the Rabo will have to grow up.

Why is this the "only grown up way of doing it"?
Give me a reasoned argument with actual points not just your opinion then we can have a debate,until you have a better argument than 'this is the way England and France do it so the Rabo teams should do the same' then nobody can engage you in a serious debate.

Question for English club rugby fans - LV Cup is that a serious competition ?

Beshocked - Will a Welsh team ever win the HC?

Only if the final is held on the 1st April.

PenfroPete wrote:Question for English club rugby fans - LV Cup is that a serious competition ?

No definitely not.

It is a competition to play youngsters. Normally 2nd/3rd teams play.

Bit like another competition

PenfroPete wrote:Question for English club rugby fans - LV Cup is that a serious competition ?

No, thats why they play 2nd/3rd choice teams until the semi finals/final, so once again is the Rabo a serious competition?

Yes it is Hersh for the reasons pointed out over the last 4 pages

Will a Welsh club ever win the HEC - Yes,

Will you ever stop Wumming? (I need a tumbleweed image here...)

Yet, the RFU have decided that the winner (if they have not already qualified) will qualify for the HEC

The WRU have decided if a Welsh region wins it, they do not qualify

The NATIONAL union decide their criteria for qualification

Is the RABO a serious competition ? YES

If implied this year the pools would look roughly like this, Stade Francais top the Amlin.

Munster
Scarlets
Saints
Cardiff Blues

Edinburgh
Leinster
Glasgow
Ulster

Leicester
Clermont Auvergne
Saracens
Biarritz

Toulouse
Harlequins
Treviso
Stade Francais

That is a much more difficult competition to win.

Jokes aside. We all know that the bread and butter for the Pro12 teams are the internationals and the HC.

The Pro 12 serves it's purpose as preparation for the bigger matches. Most of the big guns play minimal matches for the Pro 12 regions - for whatever reason.

It's purpose is deadly serious. Also the local derbies are at par with those in the AP and Top 14.

The Pro 12 is not to be intense as the Top 14 and AP because of the distances involved, the lack of history and rivalry in most games and the lack of current competition (one of Munster or Leinster will coast to the title again).

The Pro12 serves a serious purpose so yes it is serious.

Some games are not serious though.

Maestegmafia what criteria did you use to get those pools?

Not more difficult for Leinster. They would love that. Ulster would play a 2nd string side too.

beshocked wrote:

PenfroPete wrote:Question for English club rugby fans - LV Cup is that a serious competition ?

No definitely not.

It is a competition to play youngsters. Normally 2nd/3rd teams play.

Bit like another competition

Thats not true, Northampton and Wasps were fielding full strength teams earlier in the last round against youth and second string Welsh Regions.

beshocked wrote:Jokes aside. We all know that the bread and butter for the Pro12 teams are the internationals and the HC.

The Pro 12 serves it's purpose as preparation for the bigger matches. Most of the big guns play minimal matches for the Pro 12 regions - for whatever reason.

It's purpose is deadly serious. Also the local derbies are at par with those in the AP and Top 14.

The Pro 12 is not to be intense as the Top 14 and AP because of the distances involved, the lack of history and rivalry in most games and the lack of current competition (one of Munster or Leinster will coast to the title again).

The Pro12 serves a serious purpose so yes it is serious.

Some games are not serious though.

The AP will become the same as it becomes more ring fenced. Of the likely play off teams for the english championship only one I think can actually play in the AP because of the criteria stipulated by the wealth clubs in the AP trying to prevent promotion and relegation.

If some clubs feel their only chance of silverware is winning the LV Cup then that's fair enough. Most teams do play 2nd string teams though.

I see the LV cup as a bit of a joke competition though.

The AP has the history. Bristol and Leeds have the requirements. I am sure Cornish Pirates could get round them somehow.

Exeter have shown that there is hope for other sides.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Yes it is Hersh for the reasons pointed out over the last 4 pages

Will a Welsh club ever win the HEC - Yes,

Will you ever stop Wumming? (I need a tumbleweed image here...)

I disagree about a Welsh club winning the HC unless you get rid of the Regions.

F A C T !

HERSH wrote:

I disagree about a Welsh club winning the HC unless you get rid of the Regions.

Infinity is a long time you know.

asoreleftshoulder you should have a wager with Hersh.

Some you could do:

1) Wales will win a HC within 5 seasons
2)One of the Welsh regions will beat Bath in the LV Cup.
3)Wales will win the 6 nations.
4) Bath will not qualify for next season's HC.

1)I'd need good odds,obviously things can change quickly but Leinster and Toulouse look very strong,Munster have bounced back far quicker than I had anticipated and Saracens look like they'll be a force for the next few years.It's not impossible but I'd want 4/1.
2)I'd snap this up in a second,only the Dragons would struggle v Bath imo.
3)Don't rate Wales that highly,I think France will win it,new coach who's not a raving lunatic means they'll have an actual consistent gameplan and selection.
4)Close one,they'll get 7th at best,I'd probably take that bet.

HERSH wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Yes it is Hersh for the reasons pointed out over the last 4 pages

Will a Welsh club ever win the HEC - Yes,

Will you ever stop Wumming? (I need a tumbleweed image here...)

I disagree about a Welsh club winning the HC unless you get rid of the Regions.

Genius reply - so what do you suggest going back to having 8-12 near bankrupt Welsh clubs playing in a revived Welsh Prem? Where would the money come from and how long would these clubs survive considering you need at least a wage bill of £4m per club if you want to compete for the HEC (let alone win the thing)

Or maybe having 1 super club based in Cardiff?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Glas a du wrote:I'm not saying that it needs to be reduced. There would be the same amount of teams, but the leagues have the opportunity of grabbing the last two places by one of their teams winning the competitions. Its the only grown up way of doing it. Sooner or later the Rabo will have to grow up.

Why is this the "only grown up way of doing it"?
Give me a reasoned argument with actual points not just your opinion then we can have a debate,until you have a better argument than 'this is the way England and France do it so the Rabo teams should do the same' then nobody can engage you in a serious debate.

Where to start. Can we agree that the purpose if the league is to provide a viable domestic competition on those if the six nations unable to sustain domestic sides of a callibre to challenge in the Heineken Cup?
If not and you are of the view the Rabo is about 'development' not 'competition' or that it is a collection of smaller leagues. That Scottish and Italian regions should play in the HC every year cone what may then we won't have a debate. The Rabo can stagnate in it's current format and the only 'winners' if anybody at all will be the Irish who will have got a few jobs in Dublin out of it.
If giving up places is your beef then fine, let the top ten qualify come what may. If by some freak one of the bottom two win the Amlin then let them in as well.
In Ireland it seems fans will go to watch their province opening an envelope. Elsewhere it just won't happen untill tradition grows. It would help if it was a competitive league rather than a set of smaller leagues. Demotion is not an option. The play offs help, euro qualification tied to league placing would make it as good as it's going to get.

Sorry Glas I don't want to be pedantic but could you retype/rephrase that last post as it's quite difficult to read and I'm not understanding it properly (my fault and hope everyone else is fine).

Just so I can make sure I've understood everything before responding

Cheers

Where to start. Can we agree that the purpose OF the league is to provide a viable domestic competition IN those OF the six nations unable to sustain domestic sides of a callibre to challenge in the Heineken Cup?
If not and you are of the view the Rabo is about 'development' not 'competition' or that it is a collection of smaller leagues, that Scottish and Italian regions should play in the HC every year COME what may, then we won't have a debate. The Rabo can stagnate in it's current format and the only 'winners' if anybody at all will be the Irish who will have got a few jobs in Dublin out of it.
If giving up places is your beef then fine, let the top ten qualify come what may. If by some freak one of the bottom two win the Amlin then let them in as well.
In Ireland it seems fans will go to watch their province opening an envelope. Elsewhere it just won't happen untill A tradition grows. It would help if it was a competitive league rather than a set of smaller leagues. Demotion is not an option. The play offs help, euro qualification tied to league placing would make it as good as it's going to get.

Cheers Glas - I agree that "Can we agree that the purpose OF the league is to provide a viable domestic competition IN those OF the six nations unable to sustain domestic sides of a callibre to challenge in the Heineken Cup?"

Not sure what you mean by the Irish have got a few jobs in Dublin out of it?

But I'd say the fans turn up to watch the Irish provinces because they have stronger ties to them than the Scottish and Welsh fans have to their clubs/regions. Tie this with the Irish clubs being successful (well 3 of them) and attracting some very big names to their sides and you can see why people turn up - they are almost always competitive, bring through exciting youngsters provide a good atmosphere as well.

Fair enough they rest their biggest players sometimes - but every team in every league in the world does - that's why people say it's a marathon not a sprint or the similarly cliched it's all about the squad not just 15 players. They are also restricted by the Irish central contracts but the only way around this is to force the IRU to change it's whole organisation system - something I'd say would be almost impossible to do. But that's no reflection on the league apart from the fact that it portreys (correctly) that the league (in almost all countries) is a tier below Europe.

The qualification system you mention is good but there are many problems with it, not least the unions and clubs needing to protect their interests and income to ensure their survival - as a result I can't see any union want to depardise having 3 teams in the HEC (or 2 in Scotlands case).

Attendances are growing in Wales and Scotland but will take time because there is no hsitory or tradition with the regions/clubs and I'd agree totally revamping the league yet again would only put back this back yet more

We could make it more competitive by using the old Roman army's system of "decimation" as punishment. For the teams that finish in the bottom three places in the league, one in ten members of their squad are clubbed to death by their team mates.

It's not quite as scary as the dreaded relegation in England, but it's as close as we could get.

It is only Italy and Scotland that would give anything up and that is the guaranteed 100% representation they currently have. I would be amazed if Wales or Ireland had less than three representatives every year, or if any country was left with no representation at all. Not everybody can lose out. Frankly if the Scarlets come 11th in the league:

• they would not deserve to get into the HC
  
• they would get humped if they did

What is wrong in accepting that league placing is an indicator of reaching a minimum standard for participation in the premier competition for domestic teams in the World.

Whats wrong with accepting that it isn't?

It shows a serious lack of ambition and an acceptance of cozy cliques unbeffitting a modern professional sport?

How is it a lack of ambition. My team has done quite well out of this. I dont want it to change.

Also it's not true to say only the Scots and Italians risk anything - as 2 seasons ago both Edinburgh and Glasgow finished above the Dragons and Scarlets and they are capable of finishing up the table again, Treviso continue to improve and I wouldn't be suprised to see them finish 8th this season and better next season and I imagine Aironi will improve over the next few seasons (they already have some impressive scalps).

I'd say the problem with your suggestion Glas is that none in power will go for it as it disadvantages them - ie the clubs - risk not getting European money, the unions - same reason, the organisers - there's a risk that if say there's only 1 Welsh team or no Scottish teams in the HEC and they loose all their best players because of it then that will severly affect viewing figures (both at matches and on TV) in that country

What worries me is that the potential benefits are seriously less than the potential drawbacks. At most it leads to a few thousand more fans. At worst it could seriously damage the growth or the success at European level of its countries.

It's a lack of ambition that stops the individual countries saying:

"great a chance to get all of our teams in the Heienken Cup every year on merit"

Instead opting for:

"oh no, we won't know how many teams we have that will qualify until the league is decided and we MAY have less teams qualifying on merit"

To be honest Stag I think Munster would have very little to fear.

Put it another way, Connacht can finish fourth in the league but not qualify for the Heineken Cup. Is that as it should be? Er, no.

But Glas it's still true what Stag says - the drawbacks outweigh the benefits

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Also it's not true to say only the Scots and Italians risk anything - as 2 seasons ago both Edinburgh and Glasgow finished above the Dragons and Scarlets and they are capable of finishing up the table again, Treviso continue to improve and I wouldn't be suprised to see them finish 8th this season and better next season and I imagine Aironi will improve over the next few seasons (they already have some impressive scalps).

I'd say the problem with your suggestion Glas is that none in power will go for it as it disadvantages them - ie the clubs - risk not getting European money, the unions - same reason, the organisers - there's a risk that if say there's only 1 Welsh team or no Scottish teams in the HEC and they loose all their best players because of it then that will severly affect viewing figures (both at matches and on TV) in that country

I've not got a problem with any of that because those potential negatives will make the Rabo games EXCITING.

Glas a du wrote:Put it another way, Connacht can finish fourth in the league but not qualify for the Heineken Cup. Is that as it should be? Er, no.

Yes cos its nothing to bloody do with the HEC. They are 1 billion per cent independent of each other.

Nations pick the system. The RFU could announce tomorrow that Leicester Tigers are not going to be taking part in Europe anymore no matter their place in the league and their place will always be taken by whoever gets relegated from the Premiership.

Apart from this sense of pride that you have earnt your place I see no tangible benefits. A few extra bums on seats maybe.

My argument is that the necessary intensity to make the Rabo successful would come from making that link.

Football is our main competitor. Qualification for European competition on league placing is an accepted fact of life. It adds spice to the league. Why accept a domestic league which is less than it might be?