Is the Rabo a serious competition?

First topic message reminder :

Ulster fielded many debutants for the away fixture against Leinster and got smashed 42-13 then made 15 changes (15!!!) for their home fixture against Munster today and smashed them 33-17. According to a Welsh commentator it was a Munster 3rd string that took the field.
In Wales this evening we witnessed a much changed Turk side after their home win against the O's, take on Newport GD and got a lucky win. Not surprisingly Cardiff have many players "injured" or "ill" for the new year's day away fixture against the O's.
I wonder what the Leinster team will be at Cardiff on Jan 7th?

It would probably lead to many clubs finding their income halved or at least severely dented, requiring them to get rid of a lot of star players and giving severe headaches to the clubs around the playoffs/mid-table region as they wouldn't be able to plan for the future as they wouldn't know if they could rely on European money and as a result wouldn't be able to invest in as large a squads as say the Ospreys Leinster.

Connacht for example may play well enough to finish high up the table 1 season, but they will have to over spend on their budget to be able to compete in both the league and the HEC with no guarentee that they'll recieve the same amount of income the season after to pay for all these new players.

It could easily push some teams over the edge - or as I've said before if hardly any teams are continually qualifing for the HEC from 1 country then interest in the whole league for that country could well dwindly very badly.

The number of entrants are allocated to each of the 6 Unions, not the three leagues. Even if the Pro 12 did decide to change the rules, wouldn't it require re-negotiating an agreement with the French and English unions? In which case they might want more of their teams in?

I'm pretty sure this won't happen. The 6 nations have their agreed allocation. I see very little benefit in changing it, and potential large damage to Scottish or Italian rugby. The HEC has nothing to do with the leagues.

It's interesting that Welsh posters think this change would be a magic formula to their low attendances. But I thought it was the price of the tickets was the problem? Or was it the location of the stadiums? Or was it poor referee's? Now it's the HEC qualification?

The Super 14 does fine without extra dangers for the lower teams. Shouldn't winning be enough motivation?

There are several Irish on here sounding pleased with themselves !
It is quite interesting hearing the rumours in Bath and the ongoing discussions with French clubs. Looks like the LV will be ditched - the Welsh clubs just take the money and run - a welsh international on the pitch is about as likely as the dodo.....none of my fellow ST holders attend these anymore.

Purely speculation but I wonder an Anglo/French home&away knockout club competition with a proper corporate sponsor and what implications that would have for the HC ?

The Rabo won't be respected by franchises or the non diehard fan until there is HC qualification - perhaps 16 clubs and regions should be the max for the competition.

I hate the loss of historic clubs, whether that be in NZ or Wales as the premier teams in their respective Countries and replaced by manufactured teams that don't really represent anything in half empty stadia - it appears I am not alone. Top down controlled structures crumble, eventually, as they are only as strong as their weakest link......

Hang on:

12 teams in the Rabo

HC qualification

3 Irish teams
3 Welsh teams
2 Scottish teams
2 Italian teams

10 teams qualify + extras if a nations teams win the HC and Amlin

If you say the top 10 qualify + winners of HC and Amlin potentially that means the league produce NO LESS qualifiers. It just means that the manner of choosing is different.

ONLY A MAXIMUM OF TWO TEAMS PER SEASON WOULD NOT QUALIFY.

Recwatcher wrote:There are several Irish on here sounding pleased with themselves !

A crime? I think there are several Irish on here telling the truth, both about our League and other Leagues. Most notably, several Irish are saying why change what isn't broken.

"It ain't broken because you lot are winning", you might reply. And I agree, winning is the key to happiness in any sport. It won't last forever, it all might implode into the next decade; but for now things are going reasonably well for Provinces if a little dicey for the National side. It's important to be pleased about a modicum of success because history proves it can be fleeting.

I agree Secret - the IRFU have created a structure that works for them through having established regions that used to play a few games a year and using them in the professional era to funnel the elite players in their system - fair enough. Who wouldn't want to keep a winning formula - trouble is that any change might be out of the IRFU's hands, which was my point.....time will tell.

Glas a du wrote:
Where to start. Can we agree that the purpose if the league is to provide a viable domestic competition on those if the six nations unable to sustain domestic sides of a callibre to challenge in the Heineken Cup?
If not and you are of the view the Rabo is about 'development' not 'competition' or that it is a collection of smaller leagues. That Scottish and Italian regions should play in the HC every year cone what may then we won't have a debate. The Rabo can stagnate in it's current format and the only 'winners' if anybody at all will be the Irish who will have got a few jobs in Dublin out of it.
If giving up places is your beef then fine, let the top ten qualify come what may. If by some freak one of the bottom two win the Amlin then let them in as well.
In Ireland it seems fans will go to watch their province opening an envelope. Elsewhere it just won't happen untill tradition grows. It would help if it was a competitive league rather than a set of smaller leagues. Demotion is not an option. The play offs help, euro qualification tied to league placing would make it as good as it's going to get.

Yes I agree the " the purpose if the league is to provide a viable domestic competition on those if the six nations unable to sustain domestic sides of a callibre to challenge in the Heineken Cup."However I don't think HC qualification has anything to do with this,were the Top 14 and Aviva Premiership less meaningful competitions before the HC came along?If not then why can the Rabo not be a league for it's own sake,the teams competing in it want to do well for the sake of doing well not because it means they've earned the right to compete in Europe.
I'm a Leinster fan so giving up places is unlikely to affect my team for many years yet I still disagree with it,I honestly believe Italian ruby has the potential to explode in the next 20 years or so.They have the stadiums,the population and for the many people who are the wrong size or shape to play football it offers a viable alternative team, sport.I think taking away places from them would set them back when we should be doing everything possible to bring them on as rugby needs more teams who can compete at the very top level.

It's very arrogant to assume both Italian teams will fail to qualify every year.

Yes I agree the " the purpose if the league is to provide a viable domestic competition on those if the six nations unable to sustain domestic sides of a callibre to challenge in the Heineken Cup."However I don't think HC qualification has anything to do with this

It ain't going to change and this debate has been done to death.

Next debate:

If Swansea FC are relegated from the football Premiership should the Ospreys be allowed to play Heineken Cup.

Thats along the same lines in my eyes

Alternatively should professional rugby be allowed to play in boring identikit grounds, that they share with soccer clubs, that have crap atmospheres.

Blues, Ospreys, Saracens, Irish I'm looking at you

its the fans that make the atmos, the problem with all of the above is that they haven't got many.

Speak for yourself Hersh. I am one Saracens fan who definitely stands out for the right and wrong reasons. Someone told me I have been on sky a few times so look out for me.

Geoff can't speak for the other clubs but Sarries are looking to move from VR.

London Irish are stuck at Reading for a while I believe.

geoff998rugby wrote:It ain't going to change and this debate has been done to death.

What's not going to change?

The Celtic League format has changed most seasons since its inception, while HC qualification has also been tinkered with. Have we now alighted on such a perfect system that no changes are needed? I think not.

geoff998rugby wrote:Alternatively should professional rugby be allowed to play in boring identikit grounds, that they share with soccer clubs, that have crap atmospheres.

Blues, Ospreys, Saracens, Irish I'm looking at you

Quite right, far better that taxpayers bung every team a big wedge to develop/upgrade stadia, say £15m apiece.

beshocked wrote:Speak for yourself Hersh. I am one Saracens fan who definitely stands out for the right and wrong reasons. Someone told me I have been on sky a few times so look out for me.

Geoff can't speak for the other clubs but Sarries are looking to move from VR.

London Irish are stuck at Reading for a while I believe.

I saw someone on TV holding a sign saying 'I hate Hersh' at an Ospreys game once, I was flattered.

beshocked wrote:Speak for yourself Hersh. I am one Saracens fan who definitely stands out for the right and wrong reasons. Someone told me I have been on sky a few times so look out for me.

Geoff can't speak for the other clubs but Sarries are looking to move from VR.

London Irish are stuck at Reading for a while I believe.

Understand that and it can only be a good thing imv

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:It ain't going to change and this debate has been done to death.

What's not going to change?

The Celtic League format has changed most seasons since its inception, while HC qualification has also been tinkered with. Have we now alighted on such a perfect system that no changes are needed? I think not.

What is not going to change is the fundamental principal that qualification is based upon national rugby organization not leagues

I think we've successfully polarised posters on this one now!

As we have many many times before

Is the Rabo a serious competition?

No, it's too easy to qualify for the HC plus teams have the luxury of playing 2nd /3rd string sides a week before a big HC fixture.

Yawn.................................Hersh speak nonsense again and there was me hoping he was going to turn over a new leaf in the New Year

Is the Rabo serious?

300 comments of varying opinions then Hersh: No

300 more comments of varying opinion and a few dedicated to Hersh..then Hersh reappears to repeat 'No'.

300 more comments,most of them now directed at poor Hersh. Hersh reappears to say 'No' again....

Hersh has a spoon and his 'fame' pushes him to stir it. He's a victim of his own persona, go easy on him

SecretFly wrote:Is the Rabo serious?

300 comments of varying opinions then Hersh: No

300 more comments of varying opinion and a few dedicated to Hersh..then Hersh reappears to repeat 'No'.

300 more comments,most of them now directed at poor Hersh. Hersh reappears to say 'No' again....

Hersh has a spoon and his 'fame' pushes him to stir it. He's a victim of his own persona, go easy on him

Fly - you shouldn't have used the word 'fame' and Hersh in the same line. Now he'll just get a bigger spoon.

Any league that allows teams to protect it star players in layer after layer of cotton wool for the HC isn't a serious competition, its just a stop gap for greater things.

I'd only let the top 5 teams in the HC, the rest should be made up of English and French clubs.

HERSH wrote:I'd only let the top 5 teams in the HC, the rest should be made up of English and French clubs.

That doesnt sound very fair at all.
There are 6 pools, 6 English, 6 French, 4 Irish and Welsh, and 2 Italian and Scottish is a correct balance. There should be one more Welsh or Irish team not less!

I'd also like to see the non qualifiers of the Heinkaen Cup from the pool stages going into the Amlin Cup, like the champions League teams do in the UEFA Cup in football. It would make the Amlin a more serious competition!.

Those Munster and Leinster and Ulster players sure are the crème de la crème of European rugby. Is that what you're saying Hersh?

The best of the best? So good that the layers of cotton wool can be kept on for most of the league season, only to be unwrapped for special Heineken cup games; whereby they have an obligatory rub down, a hamstring stretching exercise in the tunnel and out to meet the big, bad, shaggy and vicious veterans of the Top14 and AP.

They've got to be some players to be constantly mothballed and yet constantly prepared for the toughest club championship in the world.

Back in the real world, that's an advantage to the Top14 and AP. Use it or lose it

Alyndavies more Irish and Welsh teams in the HC are you joking?

The 4th sides of Wales and Ireland are not doing well in Europe this season.

Where would you drag a 5th Irish or Welsh side from?

More needs to be done to include more countries outside the 6nations - e.g. Spain,Portugal,Romania,Georgia etc.

AlynDavies wrote:

HERSH wrote:I'd only let the top 5 teams in the HC, the rest should be made up of English and French clubs.

That doesnt sound very fair at all.

Life isn't, but at least there would be some real competition in the Rabo.

Why should the Irish, Welsh, Scots and Italians have automatic places in the HC?

they should have to earn the right to take part.

Automatic places ? Each country has been given a quota and if Wales forms two more regions we will still have the same number of HC places.
What you do with your quota is up to your union.

beshocked wrote:Alyndavies more Irish and Welsh teams in the HC are you joking?

The 4th sides of Wales and Ireland are not doing well in Europe this season.

Where would you drag a 5th Irish or Welsh side from?

Well seeing as only 2 of the 7 English teams are in the top half of their respective groups and probably only 2 in total will make the QF's England are not in a position to point a finger.

5th Irish side - easy Leinster reserves. They were would put up a better effort than Bath, Gloucester, Irish or maybe even Saints and I am not really joking either

The Rabo is tough no side has ever managed the Rabo and HEC double.

How do you explain that HERSH ya bollix?....

HERSH wrote:Is the Rabo a serious competition?

No, it's too easy to qualify for the HC plus teams have the luxury of playing 2nd /3rd string sides a week before a big HC fixture.

It's actually traditional for Leinster and Munster to play their full strength team the week before a HEC fixture, so you don't know what you're on about.

"5th Irish side - easy Leinster reserves. They were would put up a better effort than Bath, Gloucester, Irish or maybe even Saints and I am not really joking either "

The real reason these teams have failed this year in the HC is that on a week by week basis they fill there stadiums/grounds with fans paying their hard earned money to watch competitive meaningful rugby.

This takes its toll season after season, but in truth I wouldn't change a thing, long live the Jeff.

"It's actually traditional for Leinster and Munster to play their full strength team the week before a HEC fixture, so you don't know what you're on about."


So they do play weakened teams the rest of the time, thanks for clearing that up.

So why are they scared of change?

HERSH wrote:
The real reason these teams have failed this year in the HC is that on a week by week basis they fill there stadiums/grounds with fans paying their hard earned money to watch competitive meaningful rugby.

Ah ok so who's paying to watch them in the HEC then?....surely the same fans wouldn't be paying their hard earned cash to watch their team give a below par performance and then make excuses about having a long hard season?

HERSH wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:

HERSH wrote:I'd only let the top 5 teams in the HC, the rest should be made up of English and French clubs.

That doesnt sound very fair at all.

Life isn't, but at least there would be some real competition in the Rabo.

Why should the Irish, Welsh, Scots and Italians have automatic places in the HC?

they should have to earn the right to take part.

Earn the right to take part? Just how many English sides earn the right to take part in the HC each year. I'd suggest three at most seem to acquire the level needed to compete in any given year - the other three are usually excess baggage. Earn, you say? Let's carry that expectation out in all nations. English clubs would be worried by the new criteria to root out the cannon fodder sides.

Meanwhile, three Irish sides qualify by right and three of them have lifted the HC cup... I'd say that's more than earning the right to three places, it practically suggests they should have eternal invites!

Neither England nor France, nor indeed the two of them together, control the HC. And yet the attitude suggests they do.

geoff998rugby wrote:

beshocked wrote:Alyndavies more Irish and Welsh teams in the HC are you joking?

The 4th sides of Wales and Ireland are not doing well in Europe this season.

Where would you drag a 5th Irish or Welsh side from?

Well seeing as only 2 of the 7 English teams are in the top half of their respective groups and probably only 2 in total will make the QF's England are not in a position to point a finger.

5th Irish side - easy Leinster reserves. They were would put up a better effort than Bath, Gloucester, Irish or maybe even Saints and I am not really joking either

You only have to look at the number of HC wins by English clubs compared to Welsh clubs to justify me pointing the finger.

The way I see it: Ireland have two of the best sides in Europe - Leinster and Munster, one side very strong at home but average at best away - Ulster and Connacht who are one of the weakest sides in Europe.

Wales have four sides who fluctuate in form. Cardiff - a decent recent European record but haven't really faced any true heavyweights for some time. Ospreys -very good in the Pro12 but never got past the quarters of the HC. Scarlets - have been historically weak but looks to be on the up arrow now. Dragons - the weakest of the Welsh sides. Made not much impact in either the Pro 12 or Europe but strapped for cash so can be forgiven.

The Rabo needs a shake up.

Beshocked, Cardiff beat Toulouse a couple of years ago. In the QF if i remember right, and to be fair, they were as close to a final as any team is going to get, without actually making it.

beshocked wrote:Alyndavies more Irish and Welsh teams in the HC are you joking?

The 4th sides of Wales and Ireland are not doing well in Europe this season.

Where would you drag a 5th Irish or Welsh side from?

More needs to be done to include more countries outside the 6nations - e.g. Spain,Portugal,Romania,Georgia etc.

I'm suprised by this comment, and I'm not sure you have thought more about it.

Wales and Ireland always have 3 places each, the final place is generally decided by the highest places 4th region / province, this generally is Connacht, or the Dragons. this season Connacht are in Europe, last season and most before it, it was the Dragons.

Ireland are doing fantastic in Europe, Munster, Ulster and Leinster ALL lead their groups, while Edinburgh lead their group on equal points with Cardiff. If you were to take the top 8 teams in their respective pools now to make the quarter finals then, the 8 teams would be.

Pool 1 - Munster 16 points
Pool 2 - Edinburgh 13 points
Pool 3 - Leinster 16 points
Pool 4 Ulster 14 points
Pool 5 Saracens 14 points
Pool 6 Tolouse 13 points.

You also have the best 2 runners up, which would be
Cardiff Blues 13 points
then either one of Leicester, Biarittz, or Harelquins who all have 12 points.

So even though there are only 11 Rabo Direct teams in Europe, less than half the total representation 24 clubs, their numbers actually make up three quarters of the quarter finalists on current placings. 6 out of 8 teams!

I think the Rabodirect teams for all their "fail" league etc, are doing pretty well in comparison to the French who might only have Tolouse in the Quarters and England who might only have Saracens in the quarters!

HERSH raises a valid point. Although it really grinds my gears to say that since the bulk of his posts seem to be an attempt to antagonize other posters.

However I raised a topic last year concerning Leinster's performance in particular in the HC. They were beaten by Glasgow at the RDS and then a couple of months later destroyed Glasgow in the HC with Leinster fans unashamadly admitting that their team does not really bother with the Rabo.

Edinburgh did something pretty similar against Glasgow at the weekend, a team of reserves keeping the big guns fresh for the Heino.....

The Rabo is growing all the time. And that's the danger, isn't it. And the proof is the discussions on it. Something that isn't catching the imagination isn't getting talked about. Magners began as a bit of a laugh. Not a lot of coverage. It's grown, the success of the best sides in it have grown. There are new lethal looking developments taking place at Scarlets and Edinburgh, not to mention the vast room for improvement in the Italian sides (an improvement that is already seeing the National side grow in confidence)

The Pro12 is a pan European league that is growing, not withering away. Yes, it still has to deal with lack of 'history' and lack of 'ye olde rivalries' but that is already growing. We always tend to think of our present as being absolutely important and yet that isn't so. We're only at a beginning - the Pro12 is only new. It's a model the English and the French will eventually want to join rather than a model that will self-destruct.

The future is a pan-European league and the Pro12 is already that beginning.

But why is that Alyn?

hmmm...

Maybe its down to the F A C T that they don't take the Rabo seriously and use it just to keep match fit.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
However I raised a topic last year concerning Leinster's performance in particular in the HC. They were beaten by Glasgow at the RDS and then a couple of months later destroyed Glasgow in the HC with Leinster fans unashamadly admitting that their team does not really bother with the Rabo.

That might be a valid point but for the small fact that Leinster are 6 points clear at the top of the Rabo having played 12 and won 10, and were losing finalists for the past two years running.