Is the Rabo a serious competition?

First topic message reminder :

Ulster fielded many debutants for the away fixture against Leinster and got smashed 42-13 then made 15 changes (15!!!) for their home fixture against Munster today and smashed them 33-17. According to a Welsh commentator it was a Munster 3rd string that took the field.
In Wales this evening we witnessed a much changed Turk side after their home win against the O's, take on Newport GD and got a lucky win. Not surprisingly Cardiff have many players "injured" or "ill" for the new year's day away fixture against the O's.
I wonder what the Leinster team will be at Cardiff on Jan 7th?

Is the Rabo a serious competition?

How can it be!

How can you not love Hersh? He even makes me break my solemn oath to stay away! I knew what he was going to say when I saw his name on the 'most recent comment' box but I still peeped in to see it anyway.

SecretFly wrote:How can you not love Hersh? He even makes me break my solemn oath to stay away! I knew what he was going to say when I saw his name on the 'most recent comment' box but I still peeped in to see it anyway.

Did you predict the

though SecretFly?

Feckless Rogue wrote:Here's an idea for the distant future. There could be four conferences.

Welsh = Ospreys, Scarlets, Cardiff, Dragons
Irish = Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Connacht
Scottish = Edinburgh, Glasgow, Borders, Caledonia Reds
Italian = Treviso, Aironi, Roma?, Prato?

Every team plays the teams in their national conference three times each = 9 games
Every team plays the other 12 teams once, 6 at home, 6 away = 12 games
Total = 21 games, with each team only having to travel abroad 6 times a year in the regular season.
Top 2 teams in each conference go into quarter finals seeded by conference points.
Home advantage in knockouts to higher seeded team.

Each nations Heineken Cup spots are decided by where they finish in their national conference.
Nine national derbies a year would increase interest and attendance in all nations. Particularly in Wales I'd say.

What do ye think? Have I cracked it?

Gee that seems like a lot of games. But then I don't know how many games you guys usually play up there. I would be a big number of games if you won the competition and then played it the HC too.

This sounds a little like the current Super 15 format.
3 conferences of 5. Play each other in the conference twice (home and away) and then bizzarely play 8 of the other 10 teams.

Don't like it myself.

Guys, if you're going to go with conferences, then I'd use the NFL model, home & away clashes within a given confernce and then selected games played alternating one home one away over 2 year ala the 6N with those outside. So the Irish team would have 6 interpro games and then 10 other games (assuming at least one extra Italian & Scottish side exists, in the case of the Scots & Italians the play an extra game from two fothe other 3 conferences in order to play their 16 games.

Crucially, not Celtic Cup. It was always a completely bullshoite tournament and the romance of cup rugby is just that, romance, not reality. The 16 game regular seaso would allow for more games with the frontliners and because of the hoped for bigger attendence etc, would make up for the shortfall in games (domestic season reduced from 22 to 16 + playoffs. You could go from 1/4s there too) so a max 19 game domestic season + max 9 HEC games + 5 6N + 4 Autumnal games & 3 match SH tour would mean that no player could play more than 40 games a season. Realistically, no national coach would select a player for all those internationals and as I said, these are the maximums for a team that makes the final in both the Rabo and HC. For the majority of teams you could knock 4-6 games off that schedule.

However, i think the status quo is still better.

nganboy wrote:Gee that seems like a lot of games. But then I don't know how many games you guys usually play up there.

We currently play 22 regular league games plus playoffs and also the Heineken Cup, which is 6 pool games and three knockout rounds. The Welsh also play in the LV Cup with the English. I have no idea of the format of this, as I've never watched it.

I went for 3 games against each team from your national conference, rather than two, because the derbies get the highest attendance and make the most cash. My plan would essentially increase the number of national derbies and also ensure teams from each nation reach the playoffs.

I actually thought the new Super 15 format was pretty good. But I've noticed most of the posters from the southern hemisphere have been quite negative about it. Is it because it's not a completely level playing field? Well neither is the Heineken Cup, but that just adds an extra bit of spice if you ask me.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

nganboy wrote:Gee that seems like a lot of games. But then I don't know how many games you guys usually play up there.

We currently play 22 regular league games plus playoffs and also the Heineken Cup, which is 6 pool games and three knockout rounds. The Welsh also play in the LV Cup with the English. I have no idea of the format of this, as I've never watched it.

I went for 3 games against each team from your national conference, rather than two, because the derbies get the highest attendance and make the most cash. My plan would essentially increase the number of national derbies and also ensure teams from each nation reach the playoffs.

I actually thought the new Super 15 format was pretty good. But I've noticed most of the posters from the southern hemisphere have been quite negative about it. Is it because it's not a completely level playing field? Well neither is the Heineken Cup, but that just adds an extra bit of spice if you ask me.

Feckless, the issue with SXV was that there were 2 teams each season that your team didn't get a match against. So if you were unlucky in the draw missed out on thrashing the Rebels and the Lions (the 2 weakest teams in 2011) it could cost you a place or 2 on the overall table. Which could cost a home playoff game. The extra derby games certainly were popular though. The main issue SXV has is that there is only a ~ 16 week "window" to fit the whole competition into, so once you have 15 teams something has to give.

So Kiwi, conceivably a team could go through the regular season and not play the Reds and Crusaders (until the knockouts) and as you say pick up 10 points by spanking the weaker teams that they get to play while crucially, the teams around them have the more difficult schedule. That is a bit imperfect alright.

There was always a similar complaint about the HEC pools with an Italian team in them. It's was like a certain 10 points. Although to be fair Treviso are quite good now. They win most home games. It's only Aironi now that give teams an advantage.

The main issue SXV has is that there is only a ~ 16 week "window" to fit the whole competition into, so once you have 15 teams something has to give.

The European solution to that would be to make the teams play more than once a week. Then people would start complaining that players are being rested and the teams aren't taking it seriously so it's not a serious competition.

I think there might be a danger if your playing 9 derby games every season then there is a danger of the fans getting a bit bored or the comp getting a bit stale as people might be like - ohh it's another Welsh team to play, don't worry if we don't do so well this time, we're playing them 2 more times in the next 4 months so we'll beat them then.

I know it sounds strange saying that about derbies, but I think the above has happened a bit to Wales because we ALWAYS play Oz, NZ, SA in the autumn internationals and sometimes the summer as well, and some fans are definately no where near as excited at the prospect of some of the best teams in the world coming to Wales, because it's been done so many times before.

Yeah I suppose you're right. But they do still sell all or most of the tickets don't they? Even if the fans aren't as excited as they used to be.

Is the Rabo a serious competition?

Let's see. Probably 5 teams out of 8 in the QFs and one of the basement sides knocks the AP table toppers out.

No. It's a stupid league. Useless actually.

Spot on Jennifer spot on

And 3 of the 4 home teams in the QFs will probably be Rabo teams - truly a dreadful league

As long as the Rabo serves the goals of the countries, then I wouldn't care less how it is viewed by outsiders. Oz rugby fans would love a genuine third tier comp, and even if it is viewed negatively at times by outsiders, it serves a really important purpose to the celtic rugby nations and the Italians. I'd be wrapped if our S15 players had a league like that to play in even if everyone hid the S15 players at times during the season.

I really enjoy Hersh's posting, but I would be shrugging my shoulders on this one.

Who put 10 pence in you?

What's a pence? And does being wrapped mean your happy or sad?

iPads need a breath testing login.

It seems to provide serious competition to the Aviva.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Is the Rabo a serious competition?

Let's see. Probably 5 teams out of 8 in the QFs and one of the basement sides knocks the AP table toppers out.

No. It's a stupid league. Useless actually.

How does HEC success relate to the Rabo being a serious competition?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Is the Rabo a serious competition?

Let's see. Probably 5 teams out of 8 in the QFs and one of the basement sides knocks the AP table toppers out.

No. It's a stupid league. Useless actually.

How does HEC success relate to the Rabo being a serious competition?

In order to produce the rugby that takes you through a HC campaign, in order to sustain that (ie, not a one year fluke) you need a serious competition to produce the teams that do. You don't produce HC players during a HC campaign - they are produced at the coal face of the Pro12 and develop into HC players or Internationals.

You can talk about structure and lack of relegation and nothing to fight for at the end of the season etc. You can talk about AP. but the truth remains that the best of Pro12 are proving themselves consistently better than the best of Aviva. That SHOULD be proof that Pro12 is real and competitive. Now Wales can tell us why crowds stay away for their games, but it has nothing to do with structure or ability of teams in Pro12. It's internal politics.

How doesn't it relate to success in the HC. It certainly does for the Irish teams as success in the pro12 has seen a parallel success in the HC.

Looks like only 1 QF qualifier from the Aviva, HERSH thinks the Aviva must be the best league!

SecretFly wrote:

In order to produce the rugby that takes you through a HC campaign, in order to sustain that (ie, not a one year fluke) you need a serious competition to produce the teams that do. You don't produce HC players during a HC campaign - they are produced at the coal face of the Pro12 and develop into HC players or Internationals.

You can talk about structure and lack of relegation and nothing to fight for at the end of the season etc. You can talk about AP. but the truth remains that the best of Pro12 are proving themselves consistently better than the best of Aviva. That SHOULD be proof that Pro12 is real and competitive. Now Wales can tell us why crowds stay away for their games, but it has nothing to do with structure or ability of teams in Pro12. It's internal politics.

Good answer, but do English and French fans have the same point of view about their own domestic leagues? Probably not actually. Also what would happen if only the top 6 teams of the Rabo qualified for the HEC? That would throw the cat amongst the pigeons and put a very different complexion on things. Squad management would be a very different kettle of fish.

SecretFly wrote:In order to produce the rugby that takes you through a HC campaign, in order to sustain that (ie, not a one year fluke) you need a serious competition to produce the teams that do. You don't produce HC players during a HC campaign - they are produced at the coal face of the Pro12 and develop into HC players or Internationals.

You can talk about structure and lack of relegation and nothing to fight for at the end of the season etc. You can talk about AP. but the truth remains that the best of Pro12 are proving themselves consistently better than the best of Aviva. That SHOULD be proof that Pro12 is real and competitive. Now Wales can tell us why crowds stay away for their games, but it has nothing to do with structure or ability of teams in Pro12. It's internal politics.

So the fact the Irish teams do well is because they have a strong league, but the Welsh teams don't do as well due to internal politics? Why not the Welsh teams don't do well because it's a weak league and the Irish teams do well because of internal structure?

Sounding bit like the old "intensive English premiership makes strong English teams when they win but weakens them when they lose.

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:In order to produce the rugby that takes you through a HC campaign, in order to sustain that (ie, not a one year fluke) you need a serious competition to produce the teams that do. You don't produce HC players during a HC campaign - they are produced at the coal face of the Pro12 and develop into HC players or Internationals.

You can talk about structure and lack of relegation and nothing to fight for at the end of the season etc. You can talk about AP. but the truth remains that the best of Pro12 are proving themselves consistently better than the best of Aviva. That SHOULD be proof that Pro12 is real and competitive. Now Wales can tell us why crowds stay away for their games, but it has nothing to do with structure or ability of teams in Pro12. It's internal politics.

So the fact the Irish teams do well is because they have a strong league, but the Welsh teams don't do as well due to internal politics? Why not the Welsh teams don't do well because it's a weak league and the Irish teams do well because of internal structure?

Sounding bit like the old "intensive English premiership makes strong English teams when they win but weakens them when they lose.

Tunor, you can't produce the teams at the top of the Pro12, the teams that can compete on a regular basis at the highest end of HC unless those players are being tested in a league. It doesn't happen. To suggest so is fantasy. Soft league, soft inexperienced players. Toulouse would not exist in a weak, amateur intensity league. Irish sides are not alone in Pro12 success. Wales does have political issues with regionalism - you know it, I know it, it's a common converstion in this site whenever two Welsh men chat for longer than ten seconds. Welsh people have their issues with regionalism and traditionalism as it relates to the old clubs and many of them stay away from regions they don't feel an affinity to. I don't know the details but ask the next Welshman.

Now, as for the Pro12. It is as competitive as AP, not more so, not less so...but it certainly is as competitive as it produces players who know what has to be done at any given time in any given moment against the 'big' boys of English and French rugby.

It's you who can't be selective and choose to isolate Irish sides when the argument suits you...Irish sides just happen to be a few of the stronger sides in Pro12, a legitimate league that gets criticised quite often on these pages.

Ireland have 3 HEC places, Wales have 3, Scotland have 2 and Italy have 2. So only putting the top 6 of the Pro 12 into the HEC is impossible and will never happen.

And anyway, it wouldn't make the league any more "serious". It would probably just financially ruin Scottish and Italian rugby, at a a time when Treviso, Glasgow and Edinburgh are becoming more and more competitive.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Ireland have 3 HEC places, Wales have 3, Scotland have 2 and Italy have 2. So only putting the top 6 of the Pro 12 into the HEC is impossible and will never happen.

And anyway, it wouldn't make the league any more "serious". It would probably just financially ruin Scottish and Italian rugby, at a a time when Treviso, Glasgow and Edinburgh are becoming more and more competitive.

Of course it would make the league a more serious competition because there would be something to play for. If only the top 6 teams in the Rabo qualified for the HEC it would make the league a lot more competitive. By doing so would also require a change of mindset for all the top clubs and squad management would be more complicated than it is at present. Something the English and the French have to deal with.
But as you say Feckless, it won't happen because Scottish and Italian rugby would suffer.
Therefore the Rabo is simply an HEC development vehicle and not a serious competition. If it was serious then the weakest would suffer the conequences, but they don't. In fact why should Aironi, Treviso be in the HEC if this competition is supposedly for the best teams in Europe?

The Heineken Cup is not exactly for the best teams in Europe. It's Specifically for the best teams of 6 Unions, with all 6 unions entering teams, regardless of performance. That's what it was set up for. Just like the Super 15 always has three unions entering teams, regardless of their performances.

If it was just for the best teams in Europe then the English and French would have made up all the participants from the start and the Irish wouldn't have been able to develop to the point where they're now very competitive. Almost dominating it. The idea of the Heineken Cup is to allow teams from all 6 unions to potentially develop as the Irish have.

And there is something to play for in the Pro 12. You play to win and finish as high in the league as possible. With the top 4 reaching playoffs. Just like the Super 14 was before they changed to conferences.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Ireland have 3 HEC places, Wales have 3, Scotland have 2 and Italy have 2. So only putting the top 6 of the Pro 12 into the HEC is impossible and will never happen.

And anyway, it wouldn't make the league any more "serious". It would probably just financially ruin Scottish and Italian rugby, at a a time when Treviso, Glasgow and Edinburgh are becoming more and more competitive.

Of course it would make the league a more serious competition because there would be something to play for. If only the top 6 teams in the Rabo qualified for the HEC it would make the league a lot more competitive. By doing so would also require a change of mindset for all the top clubs and squad management would be more complicated than it is at present. Something the English and the French have to deal with.
But as you say Feckless, it won't happen because Scottish and Italian rugby would suffer.
Therefore the Rabo is simply an HEC development vehicle and not a serious competition. If it was serious then the weakest would suffer the conequences, but they don't. In fact why should Aironi, Treviso be in the HEC if this competition is supposedly for the best teams in Europe?

But Dave, like I said somehwere's else that this topic was raised. If you ask why should Aironi and Treviso get HC spots if it is supposedly for the best teams in Europe. Firstly, and I know this repeats but it remains so true - HC is not for the best teams in Europe. It is devised as a club/regional/provincial competition between the Six signatories to the Six Nations. It is if you will the club version of the partnership of six unions. It's not designed for the best teams in Europe but the best of Europe (ie, the Six Nations unions) You give them all spaces and see who wins. That's Heineken Cup.

But my other point is probably more important. You question why Italy or even Scotland should be get spots because they tend to be below standards. If that's so then we could also ask why RFU gets six spots when there is ample evidence that only three max can really compete each year. Even France have really ever only three candidates each year that ever look like they have the necessary ability. Why question Italy and Scotland when there is evidence that numbers could be cut elsewhere?

Hmmm, looks like I repeated everything you said Feckless I promise it was plagiarism!

We're both just repeating the obvious Fly. I'm surprised we're still repeating this "Heineken Cup is for all 6 unions" thing. It's just obviously a fact. Some people can't seem to get their head around that fact though. The long term goal has to be to increase Scottish and Italian entrants in the Pro12, not decrease their representation in the Heineken Cup. At least that might go some small way to satisfy the people who don't like the Scots and Italians getting automatic entry.

And that's a good point on the competitiveness of teams. At least half the English and French teams aren't even close to challenging for the trophy. But they still add something to the tournament, just like the Scots and Italians do. Treviso, Edinburgh and Glasgow have had some great results, just like Gloucester did against Toulouse and Connacht against Quins. None of those teams can realistically win it. But they can have an impact. Even Aironi beat Perpignan last year. They're the only team now that are probably way off the pace, but give them time and they'll get better. They didn't exist two years ago. They just need time. Growing rugby in Italy won't happen overnight but it could have long term financial rewards for all of European rugby. It's a huge potential market.

And it gives high level pan-European rugby experience to all the players who play in it. From all 6 unions. Which is exactly what it was devised to do.

The long term goal has to be to increase Scottish and Italian entrants in the Pro12, not decrease their representation in the Heineken Cup.

That is so patronising and arrogant it's untrue! Why would you assume either would lose out if league placings determined HC qualification? With the current success rate of Irish provinces in the final, only 1 Rabo team would lose out and who is to say that won't be Connacht or the Dragons?

If I could be arsed I would look up who beat the English teams to knock them out. In Gloucester's case it was Quins. I suspect the French are the main bogeymen for the English teams.

Glas quite simply the potential negatives outweigh the potential positives.

It could go very well. However it could utterly destroy things when it seems that progress is being made by all in the Pro 12.

The Celtic League used to be joked about from the Jeff and Top14 fans.
Then it found a sponsor and finally got somewhere close to self financing, everyone still joked about the early Magners.
Now the Pro12, while still behind the English and French leagues, is establishing itself into a nice little setup.
The more the Pro12 improves,
the better its teams become,
the stronger the competition gets,
the more it builds on its very short history,
the more it benefits the Unions involved in it,
the more it tries to protect and manage the well-being of its star players,
the more the other leagues will cry foul in envy!

The common complaints include;

1. But our league has more history and tradition.
All the Pro12 needs is time to fix that.

2. But our league has the better team.
This is a debate that could continue forever.

3. But you short change fans by resting players.
Honestly? People try to argue that this doesn't happen elsewhere in other leagues. It is just that the Irish sides admit it as policy to protect the wellbeing of their stars. There are only so many games a person can play in at full intensity in a year. THAT HAS TO BE MANAGED. Otherwise the quality of play suffers! Or the player gets injured! Both of those options can hardly he called improvements.

4. But you get into the HCup too easily.
Its a flipping EUROPEAN UNIONS COMPETITION. How does that not eek into peoples head? It is meant to be in place to allow rugby from the 6 NATION UNIONS hold a showcase event to promote and increase the sport. It has nothing to do with the JEFF, it has nothing to do with the Top14. Each Union sorts out its own metrics for who they want to compete. It has nothing to do with the Pro12.

5. But we have a salary cap that limits our financing.
Really? You mean every club in the Jeff is completely above board and doesn't sort out some under the table benefit in kind? And what is your CAP set at? MILLIONS upon MILLIONS. And then the Jeff SALARY CAP is compared to Top14 BUDGETS. Teams in the Pro12 have CAPS in place you know..... its called not going bankrupt!

6. But our league is more competitive because we have relegation.
Really? REALLY? Is someone trying to claim Newcastle are competitive?

It might not be 'serious' but nobody is laughing....now.

6. But our league is more competitive because we have relegation.
Really? REALLY? Is someone trying to claim Newcastle are competitive?

Good point. I've just checked the tables and noticed that Newcastle are actually less competitive than Aironi, despite the danger of relegation. Aironi have 3 wins in 13 games. Newcastle have 2 wins and a draw in the same number of games.

Sarries really being tested by Treviso here!

A quote from Mark McCafferty,Premier Rugby Chief Executive,

“The real change over the past four or five years,” McCafferty argues, “is that the Irish sides have become more successful in Europe because of the priority they have put on it.
"After round four of this season’s tournament I looked at the starting line-ups of Ulster, Leinster and Munster [all through to the quarter-finals] and only four of the 45 starters in the Heineken Cup were retained for their Pro 12 league games the next weekend.
“Take a model where the top eight clubs qualify from each league and they wouldn’t be able to take as many risks. That’s the issue our clubs have.
"At the moment pretty much everyone in the Pro 12 knows they’ve qualified for next year’s Heineken, whereas French and English sides are still fighting tooth and nail and will be doing so in the middle of the Heineken Cup next season to ensure qualification for the season after.
"Make it more meritocratic and everyone will have to take their leagues seriously.”
Any chance of getting that initiative through the ERC board? Not while the four French and English representatives can be out-voted by a cabal of eight Celtic and Italian directors keen to preserve their privileged, untrammelled passage into Europe’s elite.

There's 10 now, so they won't vote for 8. The Rabo will improve if there is more riding on each match, I.e. Euro qualification is at steak.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:A quote from Mark McCafferty,Premier Rugby Chief Executive,

“The real change over the past four or five years,” McCafferty argues, “is that the Irish sides have become more successful in Europe because of the priority they have put on it.
"After round four of this season’s tournament I looked at the starting line-ups of Ulster, Leinster and Munster [all through to the quarter-finals] and only four of the 45 starters in the Heineken Cup were retained for their Pro 12 league games the next weekend.
“Take a model where the top eight clubs qualify from each league and they wouldn’t be able to take as many risks. That’s the issue our clubs have.
"At the moment pretty much everyone in the Pro 12 knows they’ve qualified for next year’s Heineken, whereas French and English sides are still fighting tooth and nail and will be doing so in the middle of the Heineken Cup next season to ensure qualification for the season after.
"Make it more meritocratic and everyone will have to take their leagues seriously.”
Any chance of getting that initiative through the ERC board? Not while the four French and English representatives can be out-voted by a cabal of eight Celtic and Italian directors keen to preserve their privileged, untrammelled passage into Europe’s elite.

Why don't England and France drop the size of their leagues so that there are only 7 or 8 teams in it and then almost all their teams will know they've qualified before the season starts?Why should the Rabo teams be forced to change,the English are struggling to keep up so they should try to improve rather than dragging us down to their level.

"Make it more meritocratic and everyone will have to take their leagues seriously

But like we've already said, how can you say Leinster aren't taking the Pro12 seriously?? They're top. How can you say Munster aren't taking it seriously?? They're the current champions! They have squads that can compete on both fronts and win in both. They're not fiddling around at the bottom of the Pro12 waiting for the Heineken Cup. They're producing youngsters from their academies that can win and learn in the league, while also using it to get their stars to peak for the Heineken Cup. They're using squad rotation and producing home grown talent far better than the English sides.

If English teams can't it's really their own problem. Even the premier Rugby Chief executive is making excuses now. Seriously, they really have to stop this and just look at themselves and see how they can produce better rugby teams. Whinging and calling for changes in other leagues and demanding changes in other unions to make it easier for English teams is not a solution to England's lack of success in the Heineken Cup.

I'm reminded of England's RWC final against Australia. When the ref was making it extremely difficult for England, at what point did they start crying and calling for a change in ref? Oh I remember now, they didn't. They just got on with it and won the RWC anyway. It's that bloody mindedness that made England great. At what point did the English stop being the toughest bunch of b*****ds in World rugby, and start feeling sorry for themselves?

Why was this issue not raised when England and France dominated the HC ?
Each country is given a quota on how many teams they are allowed to put into the HC how each country decides who goes through should be their choice.

22 places are awarded by country, with each country deciding how to allocate their alloted places
England: six teams France: six teams Ireland: three teams Wales: three teams Scotland: two teams Italy: two teams
So France and England already have a advantage by being able to field twice as many teams so I cant understand why they are complaining that Ireland are doing so well.

The problem is not with the Pro12 it's all to do with England and France's refusal to believe that the Irish system could be better than theirs and it's them that needs to change their aproach..

Treviso 17-13 Saracens

8th placed Pro12 vs 2nd placed Premiership

Edit:

Treviso 20 -23 Saracens

Normal service has resumed

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:A quote from Mark McCafferty,Premier Rugby Chief Executive,

“The real change over the past four or five years,” McCafferty argues, “is that the Irish sides have become more successful in Europe because of the priority they have put on it.
"After round four of this season’s tournament I looked at the starting line-ups of Ulster, Leinster and Munster [all through to the quarter-finals] and only four of the 45 starters in the Heineken Cup were retained for their Pro 12 league games the next weekend.
“Take a model where the top eight clubs qualify from each league and they wouldn’t be able to take as many risks. That’s the issue our clubs have.
"At the moment pretty much everyone in the Pro 12 knows they’ve qualified for next year’s Heineken, whereas French and English sides are still fighting tooth and nail and will be doing so in the middle of the Heineken Cup next season to ensure qualification for the season after.

We've heard this from McCafferty a while back and I think there was a thread devoted to the response.

So his problem (and we all pity him.....!) His problem is that his sides have to prepare too hard to actually get into the HC, and that curtails their ability to commit to actually trying to win it... when in it? Sad story.

No, his problem is money and greed. His sides (AP) want it all. They want an intense AP, where all the best players show up and put money on seats and into advertising and sponsorship. They also then want to use the same players...(and their 6 guaranteed English spots on the HC!!! - no questions asked about the abilites of those 6 BTW!!!) to compete in the HC. He wants it all.

However, the sides that win the HC know they can't have it all. Well they certainly know that a player has only so much battery power in a season and they know how to manage him. That's crafty, that' joined up thinking and that not only allows you compete (on merit! - three Irish HC spots, three HC champions) but allows you to possibly win.

I'd suggest to McCafferty that instead of telling the Pro12 how to conduct its League or the Nations involved how to take care of their HC business, he should be talking to his own teams and telling them to get smarter, manage their squads better and indeed, improve on the idea of first 15 so that their first 15 can have breaks without a decline in standards from the fill ins.

But far be it from me to tell him how to run his particular league or what rights his guaranteed 6 HC sides should have (regardless of ability to compete)!

You don't actually hear the French whinge about the Pro12 much. It's "Anglo-Saxon referee's" that are the biggest problem according to them and is the main reason for all their defeats.

Cymroglan wrote:Why was this issue not raised when England and France dominated the HC ?
Each country is given a quota on how many teams they are allowed to put into the HC how each country decides who goes through should be their choice.

22 places are awarded by country, with each country deciding how to allocate their alloted places
England: six teams France: six teams Ireland: three teams Wales: three teams Scotland: two teams Italy: two teams
So France and England already have a advantage by being able to field twice as many teams so I cant understand why they are complaining that Ireland are doing so well.

The problem is not with the Pro12 it's all to do with England and France's refusal to believe that the Irish system could be better than theirs and it's them that needs to change their aproach..

Actually England have 7 but the argument put forward is that there should be the top 8 from the 3 different leagues making it more meritocratic.

Places are awarded to the countries involved in the six nations so the top 8 in the Pro12 will never work.

Cymroglan wrote:Places are awarded to the countries involved in the six nations so the top 8 in the Pro12 will never work.

It wouldnt be voted in because of the 4 countries involved in the Pro12 league but it would arguably produce a better overall quality 24 team HC.

And just what IS 'Europe's Elite'???

Europe's Elite are the sides that have won it, not the leagues that contribute to it....but don't actually run it.

So Europe's elite are:
Toulouse and Brive for France,
Wasps, Tigers, Saints and Bath for England,
Munster, Leinster and Ulster for Ireland.

That's Ireland five times winners, France five times winners and England six times winners. That's the elite.

So, if we must have a vote of the Elite as to what's best for the HC and who should be allowed in it, - we Irish, as representatives of the Pro12, say the Scots and Italians can retain their rights to HC spots within our league.

Those in favour say Aye? Those against say No? ____ The Aye's have it.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:Places are awarded to the countries involved in the six nations so the top 8 in the Pro12 will never work.

It wouldnt be voted in because of the 4 countries involved in the Pro12 league but it would arguably produce a better overall quality 24 team HC.

Would it?

Treviso are having a brilliant game against Sarries at the moment. Would the overall quality improve if it was Wasps or Newcastle or Bayonne instead?