Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[super_realist]

First topic message reminder :

Can't see anything wrong with oil companies. Like every other business they are out to make money, but somehow it is frowned upon to make more than anyone else.
It is not the fault of the oil companies if there is future harm to the environment, as if there wasn't a demand or the product they wouldn't be continuing to invest in finding it. (if there even is an issue with the environment)
Oil companies probably put more money into alternatives than anyone else. Statoil in particular.

As for climate change, there is no doubt it is occurring, however considering the age of the earth is measured in billions of years and we are only able to go back as far as the last ice age (10-15000 years) to measure climate trends. I'm yet to be convinced of man's actual contribution. The number one greenhouse gas is not C02, CH4 or any other by product of our use, but infact naturally occuring water vapour, which our burning of fossil fuels barely make a dent in. Of course it's all about tolerances and thresholds, but with the likes of India, China and America being the worlds biggest polluters, I'm not going to feel guilty about European energy consumption. It seems very convenient that as people are reliant on fossil fuel then it is easy to tax it by both increasing it's price and the guilt associated with using it.

Anyway, all these lentil knitters who go on about the "evil" of oil have never ever given a viable alternative.
Personally I think Nuclear power is the way forward, but the uneducated hippies will never allow it.

[super_realist]

Does anyone think Salmond will live that long?

His health certainly looks in question with the weight he's carrying.

[super_realist]

Always suffered with sleeping Doon.
Sorry to hear about your incident. Any idea what caused it?

[Diggers]

This insomnia I have is intolerable, looks like i'll be awake all night.

Thats no fun at all. Am not sleeping great at the moment myself. I think its basically my bodies way of preparing for having no sleep when the new baby comes, personally Id rather be able to sleep soundly right now. With my wife not being able to sleep more than a few hours at a time and me the same the only one getting a good nights sleep is our 2 year old.

[Diggers]

My own view on the Scotland scenario would be to have a referenum the sooner the better. No problem at all if the Scots want to be a completely seperate entity, or the Welsh or Northern Irish for that matter.
But if the vote is no I would dissolve the Scottish Parliament. You are either in or you are out, I dont agree with devolution of power away from Westminster.
If there is a Union and it has any relevance at all then it should be goverened as one state IMO. No differering NHS scenarions, the same education policy.

[navyblueshorts]

700 years after Bannockburn as well.
At least the SNP are good at choosing dates!

You think? If that's his raison d'etre he's more childish than I thought.

[super_realist]

Navy, as far as I can tell the whole raison d'etre of the SNP is to tap in and exploit the general ignorance of the Scottish public and their indoctrinated and senseless dislike of all things English as well as their preponderance for living in the past and the small nation mentality.
The fact that they don't currently have enough public support for independence is the over-riding reason why they are waiting until 2014, prior to which I'm sure the wretched Braveheart and numerous Wembley Scottish victories will be shown ad nauseum.
That hopeless woman with the lego man haircut visits the same coffee shop as me, perhaps I could drop some cyanide in it.

One thing which no one has asked though, If Scotland wants a referendum to be indepependent, then surely every other nation in the union ought to have a say on any potential break up of the union. Bloody thick sweaties.

Another thought. Should Salmond gets his way, what happens to The Open? Like it or not it is geographically known as The British Open, vis a vis, if Scotland isn't part of Britain, then no more Open's at TOC, every cloud!!!!

[Doon the Water]

Cheers SR
Not really, the best guess is some Scampi I had for tea.
At one time my face looked like I had double mumps and Lesley Ash Lips. I could hardly recognise myself. If it gets to your throat you are in trouble and it reached the back of my jaw. Quite lucky really.

[Doon the Water]

PSSR

They say a half hour nap at lunchtime is a good idea.
Thatcher and Churchill only slept for about 4 hours a night. Churchill said that his lunchtime nap worked wonders [after his bottle of champagne]

[barragan]

my wife once refered to her as a 'worthers original in a mullet'!

i'm pretty down about this independance nonsense. despite it being utterly irresponsible to even be contemplating such a 'split' at the current time, i get this feeling like circumstances are being engineered toward it and the result is not really in doubt. i mean, who is in place to fight it: cameron, clegg, miliband, lamont... none of them are going to be taken seriously when it comes down to it. whoever is controlling things has everything ticking along nicely with the most puppet like bunch of politicians under their control and its going to take something pretty spectacular to turn it round. i really don't trust salmond as far as i could throw him, and i have an uncomfortable feeling something sinister has his back.

[super_realist]

It drives me mental Ban, I simply can't see how there would be sufficient tax revenue in Scotland to even contemplate it. Still not seen how Salmond intends to make up the shortfall in the Barnet formula.

[ScottieD18]

Navy, as far as I can tell the whole raison d'etre of the SNP is to tap in and exploit the general ignorance of the Scottish public and their indoctrinated and senseless dislike of all things English as well as their preponderance for living in the past and the small nation mentality.

If I was you I'd stop sitting on the fence and say what you really think of us in Scotland.

Since devolution and our own parliment I think most Scots understand the pros and cons of independance better than poeple in Englandshire. We do have a minority of fundamental nationaists but I guess in England these people join the BNP or UKIP.

Salmond is leaving the vote as late as he can so he has time to prove SNP can be trusted with power and to give him time to turn the poles. He is perfectly entitles to do this as the SNP won a majority despite the system being set-up to prevent any single party getting a majority. Cameron is palying the same game by trying to force an early vote.

I can't see him winning the vote. Recent events have proved no country has control over thier own ecconomy and if anything we need to be forming closer ties with like minded states rather than going off on our own. It's not like Cameron and the Conservatives are showing a better example with recent events in Europe.

[super_realist]

Scottie, To me the Scottish Parliament is a complete joke, a noble idea, but run by utter imbeciles, if you ever watch any so called debates, I've seen more intellect in a playground brawl.

Pretend politics by pretend politicians..

[navyblueshorts]

FWIW, I'm with Diggers. Scotland wants a referendum? Fine, let it be a binding yes/no. Final. None of this "devo-max"; can't have the best bits of Union and none of the headaches.

Scotland gets (most of the) oil, Scotch whisky, cashmere and other wollen jumpers and whatever else. You also get your own policing, military, health service, share of the current National debt, education, pharmaceuticals etc and the funding thereof.

While we're at it, if NI want out (I'm fed up with their ridiculous sectarian nonsense although it's got a lot better over recent years) and the same goes for Wales.

Just for clarity, I'm a Unionist and I think this drive for independence is daft and a retrograde step but I'm fed up to the back teeth with this constant harping. Let's get it over with. Put up or shut up time.

[super_realist]

I'd happily annexe/blow up Glasgow for it's sectarian childishness too.

What happens next though, should Salmond get it. People in Perth, Inverness, Aberdeen etc start complaining that they don't want to be run by Edinburgh and want their own autonomy, and the whole thing starts all over again.
It's a waste of time, money and potentially very damaging as I've seen no proof whatsoever that Scotland could survive on it's own, probably the benefits system and NHS would cripple the country on it's own, before you even start with infrastructure, education and anything else which requires massive cash injections.

[ScottieD18]

Super,

To be honest I don't see much of the Scottish Parliment but I do see a fair bit of Westminster. Is there really much of a difference? In both cases the decisions are not made in Parliment but behind closed doors.

Scotland is a more socialist country than England and our Parliment has given us reduced University fees and free prescriptions (probably not for long as the recession continues). For a "joke" boby they have made some real changes for the benefit of Scots.

Love or hate Salmond I think most would rate him as a very shrewd politician. Even Paxman can't trip him up. Personally I find him too smug and superior.

If I was English I'd defintely resent the Scottish Parliment as we seem to be getting our cake and eating it in recent years. But if we lost the Scottish Parliment and reverted back to Westminster control then we would have little say as most policies are driver by what the marginal seat want. Labour and SNP get our votes anyway. SNP would get some seats but have no influence at Westminster and the Conservatives have all but given up in Scotland.

Status quo for me, but would agree this gives us an advantage over the good people in England.

[super_realist]

Scottie, Westminster does at least have educated ministers. The Scottish Parliament seems to be populated by some of the most stupid people I've ever seen, not sure whether they even went to school, whilst the content of the debate is so petty it is beyond belief. I dread to think how much these people are making for their so called jobs.

Also, Why does EVERYONE need free prescriptions? I can afford to pay, just as I can for eye tests etc. In fact i'd be happy to pay per doctors visit to if i miss one.

Scotland does very well from Westminster as it is. I simply can't see how things would improve any by being independent, other than satisfying their dislike for English authority. Spite, Face , Nose.
I once saw Salmond on a stairwell at University, should have kicked him down them.

[Diggers]

Super,

To be honest I don't see much of the Scottish Parliment but I do see a fair bit of Westminster. Is there really much of a difference? In both cases the decisions are not made in Parliment but behind closed doors.

Scotland is a more socialist country than England and our Parliment has given us reduced University fees and free prescriptions (probably not for long as the recession continues). For a "joke" boby they have made some real changes for the benefit of Scots.

Love or hate Salmond I think most would rate him as a very shrewd politician. Even Paxman can't trip him up. Personally I find him too smug and superior.

If I was English I'd defintely resent the Scottish Parliment as we seem to be getting our cake and eating it in recent years. But if we lost the Scottish Parliment and reverted back to Westminster control then we would have little say as most policies are driver by what the marginal seat want. Labour and SNP get our votes anyway. SNP would get some seats but have no influence at Westminster and the Conservatives have all but given up in Scotland.

Status quo for me, but would agree this gives us an advantage over the good people in England.

A lot of counties in England are more socialist than others. They dont have a say over how policies are made other by electing MP's of their choice to represent them in Parliament. That IMO should be exactly the same scenario for Scotland, Wales and NI.

[super_realist]

I think it has been glossed over, but how would people feel about The Open not being able to be held in Scotland anymore following independence, after all it would be a foreign country, and regardless of nomenclature, The Open IS The British Open.

[Diggers]

If Scotland went maybe Wales and NI would follow and there wouldnt be any such thing as Britain. Interesting thought.
Does sport have to follow political and geographical divides ? The Irish have one golf association but are they one country ? The Lions still tour, what are they representing really.....but does anyone actually care, they just like the concept of the team and its history.
Im sure the Open could follow in a similar vein.

[super_realist]

That's the whole thing though Diggers, If Salmond wants proper independence then he can't pick and chose which elements he wants, so he can't have sporting events continuing to be British and hold The Open in Scotland.

You know what? I think I hate Salmond more than I hate Woods, because he's dangerous.

[Diggers]

No everything in the sporting world is bound by country though SR. Look at FIFA or the European tour of the IAAF.
If the R&A chose to want to carry on hosting the Open in various countries so what. Strewth, even the Tour de France has stages in other nations now.

[super_realist]

Agreed Diggers, but Salmond is vehemently seeking total independence from the UK and so would boycott The Open, 2012 Football at Hampden or anything else with "British" connotations, as I assume he wants no association at all with the rest of the UK, incidently I bet it is the UK Electoral Commision that tends up paying for any referendum.

However, Should the R&A still consider Scotland suitable or British in a geopolitical sense (and considering they have pictures of The Queen in the R&A clubhouse I assume they do) what is to stop them considering any other country holding it? I'd be happy to see it elsewhere, i.e Holland, Sweden, ROI etc. After all, they insist on it being called The Open, and not The British Open.

[Doon the Water]

Not 100% sure about this but I remember reading that the Scottish tax revenue and social service payouts compared pro rata to England more or less knocks out the Barnet [or is it Barrett] formula.

It is going to be interesting. The way I see it the SNP have made a decent job of running the country over the last 5 years. I think that is why they got such a big vote at the last election.
Nearly every poll in the last 60 years has independance at about 30%. I think that this will go up a bit in the next couple of years. We have some thriving new technology, add the feel good factor of the Commonwealth Games and Ryder Cup and I think it will be a pretty close call.
An.....Whit aboot the 10% of the population who come from Englandshire.
Joking apart nearly all the English folk living in Scotland that I know want Scottish independance.

[super_realist]

I wouldn't be so sure about that Doon. When you look at the population of the country, take out the young, unemployed, disabled, lead swingers, benefit scroungers and pensioners I just can't see how the tax revenue would be sufficient to base a country's economy on. Of course I'm not in receipt of the figures or the business tax figures (Mac, get on your favourite source, WIki) but it seems so unlikely to be feasable, and is more about flag waving and petty bickering than real political reasons.

When you look at capital projects like the new Forth crossing or Edinburgh tram system you have to ask how on earth you can pay for things like that in addition to education, social security, councils,military etc.

The only way I can see is to raise tax business, and once they get a wift of that they'll be away before you know it, and you can't run a country on the sales of shortbread and "see you jimmy" hats.

[ScottieD18]

One problem is that Salmond has not made it clear what is in and what is out. He has stated defence and foreign affairs is out, but as this thread has highlighted Scotland is fully integrated within Britain therefore it will be difficult to decide where to draw the line for the vote and difficult for us Scots to full appreciate the implications of a Yes vote.

I caught an interesting discussion earlier this week on Radio Scotland just after the Scottish Minister made the announcement at Westminster which basically said the Scottish Parliment does not have the power to leave the Union. An expert in International law said that in his view if Scotland had a fair vote and the majority said Yes then the International community would probably accept Scotland as an independant country. Apparently the president has already been set when Russia's satilite states voted for independance despite Russia saying they did not the power to do so.

One thing is for sure. We're going to have a spicey debate for the next two and a half year. Although I am not a fan of Salmond I think he will beat any Westminster Minister in a face to face debate.

Sorry, but one more point. If we say No but SNP continues to win the majority in future elections are we going to get a referendum every 4 years until Salmond gets the answer he wants. I think fundamental votes on constitutions should require more than a 50% majority. I know my old gold club applied such a rule if motions conflicted with the constitution.

[super_realist]

That's the whole point Scottie, the referendum will be so complicated for your average sweatie that you'll never get a straight result.

Did you see Question Time last night? The silly SNP woman was absolutely battered by some fairly lightweight opposition. Paddy Ashdown tore her apart.

To justify the lack of education of MSP's, it was only a couple of months ago that some daft moronic woman who was an MSP was pictured going to work with a Celtic shirt on.
Laughable.

[navyblueshorts]

One problem is that Salmond has not made it clear what is in and what is out. He has stated defence and foreign affairs is out, but as this thread has highlighted Scotland is fully integrated within Britain therefore it will be difficult to decide where to draw the line for the vote and difficult for us Scots to full appreciate the implications of a Yes vote.

I caught an interesting discussion earlier this week on Radio Scotland just after the Scottish Minister made the announcement at Westminster which basically said the Scottish Parliment does not have the power to leave the Union. An expert in International law said that in his view if Scotland had a fair vote and the majority said Yes then the International community would probably accept Scotland as an independant country. Apparently the president has already been set when Russia's satilite states voted for independance despite Russia saying they did not the power to do so...

In which case, the rest of the U.K. gets to say (I believe this is the case anyway via the Scotland Act of '98 and also the Treaties of Union) what Scotland takes away with it i.e. if Scotland wouldn't want or want to fund something, tough, they'd be getting it. If international lawyers think an advisory referendum is good enough (I'm not convinced they can ride roughshod over Treaties' do's and don'ts just like that) then so be it. Scotland would still get all the headaches as well as their wonderful (diminishing) oil revenues. Salmond quoted slightly less than £10bn per annum to the Exchequer over the last 30 years the other day. Enough to run a country on (with whatever other incomings) when they'll have to fund free healthcare for the elderly, free prescriptions, NHS, military, police, education, infrastructure projects etc etc?

[ScottieD18]

Super,

Appears we have similar views on the referendum. It just winds me up that you have such a low opinion of your fellow Scots.

[ScottieD18]

Navy,

I agree with you. Makes no sence to be fully independant so lets just keep the status quo.

If Scotland does vote Yes and it does not work can you imagine the collective shame having to go back to Westminster with cap in hand and tale between the legs. If I was English I would not let us back into the Union.

[Diggers]

Super,

Appears we have similar views on the referendum. It just winds me up that you have such a low opinion of your fellow Scots.

Do you have to like the majority of your fellow countryfolk ? Im not a fan of an awful lot of the English population. Especially when you see a massive decline in some of the core values that were admirable, like simple good manners. Very disapointing.

[super_realist]

Navy, Scottish unemployment is 229,000 (as of Dec 2011) if you add those on long term sick, disabled, other malingerers, lead swingers and layabouts on other kinds of benefits then you are probably looking at 500,000.
If you give each of these just £50 a week (most will be on more when you add in housing benefit etc) then that equates to £1.3bn a year. Over 10% of Salmonds predicted GDP. Surely unworkable when you have so much else to pay for.



Scottie, I've lived all over Scotland and the over-riding impression that I have is that of small mindedness and negativity. I've always experienced the English to be far more upbeat, although I imagine it depends where you go, I wasn't visiting a Peckham housing estate at the time.

[Doon the Water]

Super~ do you know the full story of the Celtic shirt, I think it was to do with a good cause.

Good point Scottie.
I think when the SNP were elected many folk though that they would sit back and watch them implode. They really surprised many by making a pretty good job of it [rather like the first year of the Blair government.]

Simple fact is that there is now no reasonable opposition party in Scotland.
Most folk thought the Liberals would rise in their traditional standing grounds. Wee Cleggy as put a sharp end to that. Labour still can't shake off their Glasgow 'old Labour'coat. Perhaps we should start a party?

[Lairdy]

I'm with super on this. Absolutely hate Salmond and especially how his fat mush always appears next to some succesful Scottish sportsperson etc. on the news.

The Scottish Parliament is just another level of bureaucracy filled with petty politicians.

and when you look at it on the surface the SNP seemed to have changed a lot of things for the good but I always wonder how they pay for things. Nothings free and you always pay one way or another. On a personal note they dont like large infrastructure projects, which doesnt do me much good, and you cant avoid those forever.

[barragan]

Super, Appears we have similar views on the referendum. It just winds me up that you have such a low opinion of your fellow Scots.

Not difficult when a large percentage of the population count 'drinking alcohol' as one of their preferred pastimes. Not particularly bright, but also not solely applicable to Scots.

[NedB-H]

I think it has been glossed over, but how would people feel about The Open not being able to be held in Scotland anymore following independence, after all it would be a foreign country, and regardless of nomenclature, The Open IS The British Open.

Firstly, given that R&A HQ is in Scotland, more likely it'd be England that lost its Opens than Scotland. Secondly, Scotland would still be in Britain. Great Britain is a geographical term that describes the main island shared by England, Scotland and Wales, so unless they get a load of tugs and tow Scotland off towards the Faroes, it'll still be in Britain. It won't be in the UK, which is the political country formed by the various unions. The interesting thing(ish) is that the UK would have to change its official name... currently it's "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", but clearly if part of GB was independent it wouldn't be that any more. Dunno what it'd change to, "UK of England, Wales and NI" maybe?

[Doon the Water]

How about.
'UK of Them, Wales & NI''

[McLaren]

The most important thing, and I can’t quite get my head around it, is the currency issue. We currently have a currency/exchange rate (sterling) shaped by the balance of payments benefits (or not depending on how you see it) of North Sea oil. The make up of our economy in the uk has also been shaped by this. So if Scotland gets the oil and keeps the pound and the rest of the UK looses the oil. What happens to the pound?

I think this is a really difficult concept to understand let alone answer yet I have yet to see someone even try. As the eurozone crisis has shown, common currencies and lack of exchange rate control is a lot more complicated than we ever thought.


Or worse, one nation makes payments to the other through some sort of compensation scheme related to the oil (or anything else) out side normal trade. Whatever happens there is no way one currency can accommodate two nations with differing exchange rate needs.

Further where the hell would this leave a Scottish central bank? It would be a bit of a non event.

[super_realist]

Michael McIntyre does a great sketch about Scottish money. (before he became over exposed)

"One pound to the pound, that's no bad eh?"


What would Scottish money be called anyway? The Coronary perhaps.

[Diggers]

I think you'd have to have your own Royal family as well as we wouldnt want you to share ours, though Queenie might shed a tear about losing Balmoral.
King Alex ? Or would Sean Connery come home to claim his crown ?

[Doon the Water]

Diggers, you of all people should know that Oor Lizzie is Queen of Scots.
Whatever happens she will still remain that.

Some goukie talkin heed thought we should aline ourselves to the USA dollar.

The Scots pound is good enough for me, after all it is older than the English one, that is before that Scots guy broke away and founded the Bank of England.

[McLaren]

Doon

The implication from fatty salmond was that we would use the current pound, and hence my question.

[NedB-H]

What I don't understand is people saying "they'll have to drop the pound". They may well have to have a different currency from sterling, but they can still have a decimal currency measured in pounds and pence if they want, no different to dozens of countries all having their own versions of dollars and cents. And presumably they could tie their Scottish Pound to whatever they decided too.


Not that any of it will ever happen...

[super_realist]

Cyprus use a decimal version called The Pound.

When the oil runs out we can always use the fat on Salmonds ghastly body. Would last for years.

[JAS]

Super, Cyprus have been in the Euro for several years now. Well...I say several...when I went out 4 years ago they had dual currency (Cypriot £ and Euro) now they are totally Euro and I think that's been the case for at least 3 years.

[Diggers]

Possibly not for much longer Jas, another Eurozone crisis after yesterday's ratings downgrades.
Does anyone else think those agencies are a bit like newspapers predicting house price falls. They help to fulfill the prophecy by talking about it.

[McLaren]

Ratings agencies may well be one of the biggest issues harming our economies yet no one really mentions there part in 2008/2009 and now. They are seriously dodgy for lack of a better term.

[kwinigolfer]

Quite right, Mac.
And: Wouldn't Europe feel S&P's actions are purely political - "Europe" is getting a terrible rap over here right now? Politically correct for every Republican to slag Europe off.

"European-style socialist" is their favourite condemnation of Obama.

[McLaren]

The problem is that they seem unregulated and see no harm in taking advice from bank as a basis for downgrading another.

[McLaren]

PS

You watching any EPL kwini?

[kwinigolfer]

Mac,
Watching Chelsea vs Sund/Digg-ers.
Almost Rooney-esque from Torres.

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