Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[super_realist]

First topic message reminder :

Can't see anything wrong with oil companies. Like every other business they are out to make money, but somehow it is frowned upon to make more than anyone else.
It is not the fault of the oil companies if there is future harm to the environment, as if there wasn't a demand or the product they wouldn't be continuing to invest in finding it. (if there even is an issue with the environment)
Oil companies probably put more money into alternatives than anyone else. Statoil in particular.

As for climate change, there is no doubt it is occurring, however considering the age of the earth is measured in billions of years and we are only able to go back as far as the last ice age (10-15000 years) to measure climate trends. I'm yet to be convinced of man's actual contribution. The number one greenhouse gas is not C02, CH4 or any other by product of our use, but infact naturally occuring water vapour, which our burning of fossil fuels barely make a dent in. Of course it's all about tolerances and thresholds, but with the likes of India, China and America being the worlds biggest polluters, I'm not going to feel guilty about European energy consumption. It seems very convenient that as people are reliant on fossil fuel then it is easy to tax it by both increasing it's price and the guilt associated with using it.

Anyway, all these lentil knitters who go on about the "evil" of oil have never ever given a viable alternative.
Personally I think Nuclear power is the way forward, but the uneducated hippies will never allow it.

[super_realist]

I hate hate hate the type of "music" that the likes of her produce. Absolutely dreadful, so for me, I shall not miss her one jot.

[kwinigolfer]

Whatever you think of her music, she had an all-time fabulous voice.

But where were these friends and family when Whitney Houston needed them? MIA.

[Fader]

I too am no real fan of her music, but can agree that the strength of her voice was leagues beyond anything that is coming off the literal manufactured production line of modern day singers.

However anyone that chooses to pile that filth into their bodies irrespective of what they claim to be the reasons behind it, its a choice they made to do so therefore I can't see why the world goes into shock when they die as a result.

The one annoying thing is now we will be subject to hearing her voice over and over again on radios as they go into overdrive of "what a sad loss this is"

[Diggers]

To be honest I struggle to empathise with anyone dying I dont personally know. Be they sportsmen, actors, musicians or even soldiers. So many people die every day Im not going to just mourn the ones the media tell me to.

[super_realist]

To be honest I struggle to empathise with anyone dying I dont personally know. Be they sportsmen, actors, musicians or even soldiers. So many people die every day Im not going to just mourn the ones the media tell me to.

Especially ones responsible for some truly criminal records

[super_realist]

Rangers file for administration.

[Doon the Water]

Relegate them to League Three I say, trouble is they will still be playing my team Hearts and Berwick Rangers.

[Fader]

So now Celtic will win the league by default for a few years. Making Scottish football even more pointless than it already is.

[hend085]

it could really spell the end of the spl. tv revenue will surely go down now that the 2 horse race will probably be a one horse procession for the next couple of years

[Nay]

Relegate them to League Three I say, trouble is they will still be playing my team Hearts and Berwick Rangers.

Get rid of Davie Weir and all hell breaks loose,

[delToro87]

Are Celtic fans happy about this? This year, sure, it means they win the league, but if Rangers were to go under (unlikely, but you never know) would they be pleased with that? They need each other, if one disappears, soon Scottish football will be no better than Irish or Welsh football (excluding Swansea and Cardiff).

[Doon the Water]

This comes at quite a bad time for Scottish Football.
Some of the teams like St Johnstone, St Mirren, ICT, Ross County and Falkirk were starting to play some pretty decent football. Falkirk with a team of kids knocked Rangers out of the Cup and showed Celtic a first half football lesson.

I have always thought that Scottish football would be better without the OF and all thier baggage.

[Nay]

Doon,

you keep saying but as a hearts fan you must know they bring more than enough baggage themselves.

Should we get rid of them to?

[Lairdy]

I've wanted Rangers to make the transition from a buying club to a development club for years... just hoped that the transition wouldnt be this messy!

[kwinigolfer]

Not wishing to introduce the forbidden four-letter word on this thread, but not a great week for the Johnstons.
I know Alastair Johnston is a former Chairman of Rangers, and I don't know for certain that his (step-?) daughter is still teaching an old Tiger new tricks, but still . . . . . .

Given the wealth of Alastair Johnson, and his alleged feeling for the Club, why doesn't he step back in or was he just an egotistical figurehead?

[Lairdy]

Kwin, the previous people in charge are chastising Whyte in the press for not having the funds to run Rangers yet did the likes of Johnston put his hand in his pocket when he was chairman? Not significantly by any means. Most of them were all part of the spending (the banks money) beyond our means that got us into this trouble. From what I can tell the previous owner Murray has selected Whyte to guide the club through these ugly times - of all the Holly Wilaboobie for tat between old and new guard zero has been directed at Murray. I'm no financial expert but I dont think there is another way forward for our club without facing up to some harsh realities. Be it with another name or in another league the sooner Rangers can come out this at the other end the better.

[kwinigolfer]

Lairdy,
As a Portsmouth fan who has seen Mandaric, Redknapp, Storrie and the ne'er-do-wells who followed (not the managers though), I can only sympathise. I need to win the Lottery, fast.

Johnston is worth a not-so-small fortune; time to put up or shut up.

[Lairdy]

That's that then. Administration it is. Whyte takes assets to new rangers and old rangers cant pay tax man. Wind up old rangers. New Rangers now more attractive to buyers than before and Whyte hopes to sell to cover his ticketus loan, plus some profit if he can. Tricky bit will be convincing SPL, SFA etc to keep Rangers in the Premier League.

Wont be as painless as I've made out but hopefully it'll be done quickly enough for next season. Sad thing for Scottish Football is we are still 2nd in the league with the 10 point reduction!

[Nay]

I see Murray and Johnston laying the full blame fully at Whytes feet.

Am i missing something with regards to the Tax Bill as this was not on his watch. I don't think Whyte is blameless by any means.

But these people need to get together and figure out an action plan, instead of bickering

[navyblueshorts]

Sorry, let me get this straight.

Rangers are FUBAR and probably owe HMRC much moolah.
By going in to administration, with their own appointed administrator, they can avoid paying HMRC their due tax and the secured creditor (Whyte?) gets their money back w/o having to pay the owed tax.
They set up another club with the same name, no HMRC bill and carry on as if nothing has happened leaving the original club to be wound up with all the innocent parties accepting the losses? The new club would undoubtedly expect to be OK'd by the SFA.
This is perfectly acceptable business practice in the U.K.????? Am I missing something here?? No wonder this Country is a cess pit.

[Doon the Water]

Interesting that it is a PAYE and VAT bill of £9m that brought in the administrators. The tax case is on top of that with the figure expected to be £40m to £60m. Two Tax departments fighting over the bones of a once great team...very sad.
Years of mis-managment have led to this moment.
Whyte must have been a total numpty to get involved in this.

I agree NBS but it has happened to countless other teams Leeds, Portsmouth x2.

I hope the SFA take a stong stance on this [unlikely] as it is quite conceivable that Rangers could still play in Europe next year.

[JAS]

Sorry, let me get this straight.

Rangers are FUBAR and probably owe HMRC much moolah.
By going in to administration, with their own appointed administrator, they can avoid paying HMRC their due tax and the secured creditor (Whyte?) gets their money back w/o having to pay the owed tax.
They set up another club with the same name, no HMRC bill and carry on as if nothing has happened leaving the original club to be wound up with all the innocent parties accepting the losses? The new club would undoubtedly expect to be OK'd by the SFA.
This is perfectly acceptable business practice in the U.K.????? Am I missing something here?? No wonder this Country is a cess pit.

In a nutshell NBS probably (The EBT case hasn't been decided either way but if Rangers do lose then yes £40m - £75m would qualify as much moolah)

I wouldn't say it's acceptable business practice for employees or shareholders but yes this sort of thing does happen and I know from bitter experience. I once lost a few grand by holding shares in a company which got ran into the ground. Went into administration, got wound up. Only for the directors to start again with most of the assets and leave the previous shareholders with diddly squat...Poopie happens!!

[Lairdy]

Whyte is no numpty. He knew what he was doing all along. He's going to end up re-packaging Rangers debt free and sell. Its basically what he does and I dont get why the press are not speculating on this. I've heard it almost doesnt matter if Rangers win their case with HMRC as the tax man will appeal any loss ad infinitum.

Morally its totally wrong plus I think Murray has known Whytes intentions all along. Probably part of the planning. Whyte never had a good reputation with the business world, press and fans to begin so whats he got to lose? He's told a few white lies to the fans but if he told the truth the tax man would have stopped this from happening. If the tax man got in with administrators then the club would be wound up with nothing to start a new one with.

SFA & SPL know that their tv deal will be worth far less without the old firm so I think Whyte sees that as leverage to stay in the SPL at the end of this. From a Rangers fan point of view I hope they get this sorted before the european deadline for published accounts.

[Diggers]

It is morally wrong but its hardly just a football issue. Company I worked for went into administration, sold as a prepack to a pre arranged buyer and rise like a phoenix as exactly the same business but having offloaded all it's debt and left a load of unhappy creditors. Hard to believe its legal really but it is.
And all those creditors still do business with the "new" business just as will happen with Rangers.
The regulations governing administration need looking at for sure.

[SpacemanSpiff]

Can't HMRC insist on all their assests being sold of ie the ground etc?
Surely got to be worth a few million? Or is this only possible through bankruptcy? Seems a shame so many small businesses, and other smaller teams who are all due money lose out when there are clearly assests. Not to mention HMRC/PAYE etc. As a tax payer they should be paid bedore you can continue trading. Administration seems a complete cop out.

[super_realist]

Cant see Rangers getting back to any sort of "big" team again. Not enough interest in the SPL and the standard is atrocious.

Thankfully we'll never have to endure them or Celtic in Europe ever again.

[Bob_the_Job]

Can't HMRC insist on all their assests being sold of ie the ground etc?
Surely got to be worth a few million? Or is this only possible through bankruptcy? Seems a shame so many small businesses, and other smaller teams who are all due money lose out when there are clearly assests. Not to mention HMRC/PAYE etc. As a tax payer they should be paid bedore you can continue trading. Administration seems a complete cop out.

This. I believe (no expert, but have put a company into administration) that HRMC is always the first creditor, then secured creditors, then the banks, then everyone else. I would imagine a deal will be struck whereby any sizeable assets will change hands and the club will be left operational at a P&L level but with no assets. I think this is what happened to Leeds a few years back, and the issue then becomes one of being unable to leverage any borrowing because there are no assets left to secure it against. So large capital expenditure such as buying good players is impossible, and a spirited if steady decline ensues.

[super_realist]

Perhaps Tesco can build a supermarket over Ibrox?

[Lairdy]

Spaceman - I'm no expert but based on what I've read this is what I understand. HMRC could have done that had they been the ones to put Rangers into administration but they didnt. Craig Whyte did as a creditor. He took on Rangers' previous debt (£18m) to Lloyds bank. So Lloyds left happy but Rangers still have the £18m debt to Whyte. As the main creditor he could appoint an administrator who could also happen to be his mates... which they are. As he's now an approved creditor in the process he can control the assets while non approved creditors, HMRC, get in line at the back. That now allows him, if he wishes, to move the main assets, along with the Rangers brand, into a new holding company.

Super - Whilst there will be a lot of pain for employees and creditors I think long term this will ultimately be a good thing for Scottish football - forcing teams to find their own financial level and encouraging the development of players. I look back on the successes of Rangers over the past decade or so and I actually dont see a great difference in terms of domestic and european results when the spending was considerably more.

[super_realist]

Lairdy, the problem with the old firm is that they still think they are top teams.

The league is on a par with Norway or Denmark so if Rangers do come back then they are going to be no better than a Rosenberg or Brondby.

[The Galveston Giant]

Lairdy, the problem with the old firm is that they still think they are top teams.

The league is on a par with Norway or Denmark so if Rangers do come back then they are going to be no better than a Rosenberg or Brondby.

Still better than Dundee Utd you sad little man.

[super_realist]

Galveston, just accept that The Old Firm are now minnows in European football and are no longer big teams.
Time to cancel the SPL?

[Lairdy]

That will be the biggest problem in this and whoever is in charge when Rangers come out the other end of this should be implicit that a change in direction WILL be implemented. The biggest problem the old firm have in developing players is if they dont make an immediate impact their chance is gone. Everything is short term so not to lose ground to the other side. If the focus of the club moves to development rather than buying in then I see no reason why Rangers or Celtic for that matter cant be competitive. Its alright saying there is no talent in Scottish football but I just dont believe that. There is a lack of focus and effort though! When Giggs and Scholes were youth players SAF used to follow them and haul them out of night clubs etc ha! Thats commitment to development.

and I always cringe when I hear fellow fans commenting on how we shouldnt be losing to Swedish, Slovakian etc club teams! Looking at football across europe I see no reason to ever believe that! They almost sound like England fans when they say that...

[The Galveston Giant]

I have accepted that and have for a long time.

[super_realist]

Exactly Lairdy, on another thread I said that Rangers would really struggle against Malmo, and so they did, yet all the blinkered Rangers fans thought the tie was a foregone conclusion.

The SPL is ranked 24th by UEFA for a reason. It's rubbish.

[The Galveston Giant]

And the Premiership is ranked where it is at the moment due to foreign investment, something the scottish game does not have. If all the foreign money and players left what would you be left with. Money is the difference.

[super_realist]

Probably because it's a product worth investing in Galveston. No one cares about the SPL, so it's always going to remain a tinpot league with no money going around, except Rangers thought they knew better and hawked themselves up to the eyeballs, naive and arrogant enough to think that creditors wouldn't ask for it back.
Hilarious.

[The Galveston Giant]

It's not but with that same investment it wouldn't be a tinpot league, so you can't compare the two. I try to enjoy the league for what it is and not pretend that it should be like the Premiership. The huge spending clubs have been doing won't go on for ever.

[super_realist]

Galveston, I've no problem with that, but it's hard to argue that it isn't a rubbish league and that it will ever be anything other than that.

My issue is with the OF thinking they carry some sort of international weight, they are no more than a faded and unfashionable hoolywood star now, doing variety instead of hollywood films.

It will never attract investment, because you need to have an interest in something for anyone to invest. I can't see the league getting better, and can only see Celtic and Rangers become more and more insignificant in the future.

[navyblueshorts]

Was an interesting comment on Radio 5 this morning that there are known to be (I think) 7 teams in The Championship in England that currently have outgoings to players etc in excess of 100% of their income. That's almost a third of the League. Barmy.

[Lairdy]

Galveston - I think money only helps when you get past a certain level. You think teams like Maribor receive any more investment than Rangers do? I think the Scottish International U21s would have gave them a better game than Rangers did at the start of the season. The incessant focus buying players has pretty much ended the club. We already missed an opportunity to change direction when we werent signing anyone for years on end. I couldnt believe the thousands if not millions that McCoist wasted on foreign journeymen squad players when the youth team squad players we had last season did fine. Bedoya, Ortiz and MacKay are not better than Hutton, Ness and Wylde. If this opportunity gets missed then I'll be pretty much done with supporting something I dont believe in.

[The Galveston Giant]

I agree some of the transfers going out and most coming in were confusing to say the least. They have totally scewed certain things that will be hard to repair.

[super_realist]

Why don't the BBC just call their Golf Section "Man Sausage Woods".

These days it's nothing but him.

[kwinigolfer]

Every "golf section" is the same though, isn't it? Except this one!

[super_realist]

I don't know any other sport where they'd gush so much about the World Number 20.

The editors should be ashamed.

[Diggers]

Bit pot kettle really Super considering the amount of time you devote to discussing the guy.

[Fader]

Have to say I don't look at BBC golf section after seeing it so onesided,problem is finding somewhere that isn't just bleating on about the same stories.

[super_realist]

Bit pot kettle really Super considering the amount of time you devote to discussing the guy.

Depends, I'm usually giving him the derision he deserves in response to a comment. Can't see why the BBC devote so much time to him, it's as if they still treat him as the Number 1 golfer, after all their football pages aren't full of David Beckham. If he was #1 I'd have no problem, but he's barely top 20, so treat his column inches accordingly.
The golf section almost looks as if it's been turned over to someone who has never played the game and is not even interested in it.

[Diggers]

Did the viewing figures not go through the roof for the event Tiger played in the other week ? Think kwini mentioned this.
Supply and demand. Very simple really.

[super_realist]

Does that not strike you as sad though Diggers? It's like tabloid/celebrity journalism, and not really about sport, which is what it should be.

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