South Africa vs England 2nd Test - Teams and Live match thread

[robshaw4england]

First topic message reminder :

Edit: Actual squads added to OP for reference
South Africa vs England
2nd test, Ellis Park, Johannesburg (capacity 62,500)

South Africa
Pat Lambie, JP Pietersen, Jean de Villiers (capt), Francois Steyn, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Francois Hougaard, Pierre Spies, Willem Alberts, Marcell Coetzee, Juandre Kruger, Eben Etzebeth, Jannie du Plessis, Bismarck du Plessis, Tendai Mtawarira.
Reserves: Adriaan Strauss, Werner Kruger, Flip van der Merwe, Keegan Daniel, Ruan Pienaar, Wynand Olivier, Bjorn Basson.

Only changes are due to injuries to Zane Kirchner and Coenie Oosthuizen - Lambie starts at fullback, with Basson and Kruger on the bench.

Weather: Sunny, should be around 10deg C for kickoff http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/993800


England: 15 Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
14 Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
13 Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
12 Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
11 David Strettle (Saracens)
10 Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins)
2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
4 Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
5 Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
6 Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
7 Chris Robshaw (capt, Harlequins)
8 Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Replacements
16 Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
17 Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
18 Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
19 Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
20 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
21 Owen Farrell (Saracens)
22 Alex Goode (Saracens)

Tour Previews:
http://www.v2journal.com/the-south-african-perspective-on-englands-summer-tour.html
http://www.v2journal.com/englands-summer-tour.html

15. M.Brown (Quins)
14. C.Ashton (Saints)
13. M.Tuilagi (Leicester)
12. B.Barritt (Saracens)
11. B.Foden (Saints)
10. T.Flood (Leicester)
09. B.Youngs (Leicester)

08. B.Morgan (Gloucester)
07. C.Robshaw (Quins)
06. J.Haskell (Wasps)
05. G.Parling (Leicester)
04. M.Botha (Saracens)
03. D.Cole (Leicester)
02. D.Hartley (Saints)
01. A.Corbisiero (Irish)

16. J.Marler (Quins)
17. J.Gray (Quins)
18. T.Palmer (Wasps)
19. T.Johnson (Exeter)
20. D.Care (Quins)
21. O.Farrell (Saracens)
22. J.Joseph (Irish)

*If Brad Barritt is unable to play next week then I would start Tuilagi at inside and have Joseph at outside, with Turner-Hall or Allen coming onto the bench.

With Flood back at 10, England will be able to exploit his partnership with Youngs and get the best out of our centres in attack. He will also help to bring Foden, Ashton and Brown into the line with his strong passing game. Farrell looked completely out of his depth in attack today.

I'd bring Haskell in for his ball carrying ability and physicality to match the springboks. Johnson impressed me today, however he may suit coming on as an impact sub later in the game.

If Corbisiero is fit and firing I'd start him ahead of Marler simply because of Corbisiero's impressive scrummaging and form in the six nations. Marler went well today, but he is still learning and could make a huge impact off of the bench.

Thoughts?

[Effervescing Elephant]

Worried about that bench. No real impact there at all!

[formerly known as Sam]

Very concerned over the bench, the only player there capable of offering additional attacking intent is Goode. His introduction would see Foden either leave the field or move to the wing, neither of which is ideal if we need a try though.

Flood at 10 is a massive bonus, Steyn's defence will be tested and if Flood can just make one of his little half breaks and offload to Manu then we'll be in business, especially, if Manu can orchestrate a big smash on little Lambie on his way to the line. Just knock the stuffing out of the little Bok dynamo a tad. PDV didn't look to quick in the first test and with Flood playing flat the Bok drift should be slowed and Joseph given time to take him on. Need to be careful with the PDV/winger switch that caught us out twice in the first test for big returns.

[Effervescing Elephant]

Inciteful comments there Port. think we've all learnt something here today...

England team looks just about what everyone wanted to see, big concerns over the bench. Doesn't seem to bring anything new to the starting 15. Would have at least liked to see Care and Haskell on the bench in place of Dickson and Dowson.

[Triangulation]

We are all agreed that the bench is not offering much.

Zero impact there.

I like everyone on here am very concerned about it.

Just to play Devil's advocate though....

Is it not possibly a bench designed to close a game out?

A game that we anticipate leading in at the 60-65 minute mark?

If so then perhaps it is a more positive bench than one full of impact players?

[Effervescing Elephant]

That did cross my mind Tri. With Dickson, Farrell and Dowson it really couldn't be anything else!

[Triangulation]

That did cross my mind Tri. With Dickson, Farrell and Dowson it really couldn't be anything else!

Yes Carpe! Feeling better already. We plan to be 7-10 ahead at 65mins when the closers come on! Hurrah!


The really really cunning part though is............


Mears.

As a plan it is as hot as my pants!!

He comes on and rope-a-dopes the Boks into wasting 5-10 minutes trying to kill our front row with endless timewasting resets the result!

[Effervescing Elephant]

I like it!

[propdavid_london]

I think that this selection is what I was hoping for. With the exception of Care.

Farrell on bench and Flood starting - good move
Joseph starting - good, give the kid a decent shot (sink or swim) but I think that he will do well.
Hopefully Flood can get Tuilagi runing good lines and making pockets of space for Joseph to nip through.

Strettle - well, I thought that he may have gone for the more defensively solid and bigger boot of Monye but, I suppose Strettle was next in line.

Waldrom could have made the bench instead of Dowson. And Care in place of Dickson, but maybe SL doesnt want to make it too easy for DC to get back in the team - he just has to work a bit harder.

Corbisero is good to see back, hopefully he can develop a good level of competition in the front row. And Alex Goode presumably offering cover of all back 3 positions (if needed due to wing injury he could come on and Foden shift to wing again).

[formerly known as Sam]

It is a good point actually, England have very little in form of tactical kicking. It is a strong point of neither Youngs nor Flood (both are attacking and skillfull players we need in order to get the backline moving) and none of the back three or the centres could be considered to offer a tactical kicking option. There are options on the bench in Farrell and Goode who both have excellent boots but come with their own issues (Farrell's limited passing/attacking game and Goode's zero experience at this level).

[jeffwinger]

I'm disappointed to see Strettle back on the wing, he isn't very creative any more and hasn't finished brilliantly this season. Having said that there isn't an alternative screaming for selection. Monye would have offered a similar solid all round game but with even less spark and Wade would make me nervous at this stage in his career against a test side. He simply isn't ready yet. I suppose Strettle never did anything particularly to warrant being dropped, and as the man in possession it seems the easiest selection. He should slot in to the systems comfortably. So in terms of what is available I wouldn't dispute the choice, but it's a bit depressing that the options are all a bit rubbish. I've been saying since the squad was announced we're a winger light. I think there are players left at home who would do better than Strettle in the test side.

[Triangulation]

I'm disappointed to see Strettle back on the wing, he isn't very creative any more and hasn't finished brilliantly this season. Having said that there isn't an alternative screaming for selection. Monye would have offered a similar solid all round game but with even less spark and Wade would make me nervous at this stage in his career against a test side. He simply isn't ready yet. I suppose Strettle never did anything particularly to warrant being dropped, and as the man in possession it seems the easiest selection. He should slot in to the systems comfortably. So in terms of what is available I wouldn't dispute the choice, but it's a bit depressing that the options are all a bit rubbish. I've been saying since the squad was announced we're a winger light. I think there are players left at home who would do better than Strettle in the test side.

Johnny May

springs to mind...

[wam]

Yeah the only change I would make is care instead of dickson. I thought haskell looked ordinary against the SA baa Baas

I also think Monye has a hamstring issue otherwise he would be playing. As they pulled strettle out of the team to play the baa baas at the last minute due to it.

[propdavid_london]

jeff - agree, after Wades performance yesterday - he isnt ready yet for international. I hope Wasps can sort his defense out, I would hate for this kid to be thought of as another Varndell.

Strettle was the easy option and should slot back in. I think I heard someone saying yesterday that Monye was out with a stretched calf muscle or something similar!

Youngs is given another chance - lets hope that he works better with his club man Flood and improves his kicking accuracy. Fingers crossed that there is a bit of zip injected into the side. It already has that attacking feel to the back line by having Joseph selected there.

[jamesandimac]

Very interested to see how this backline operates. This selection represents a complete shift in mindset of how England will play. This backline won't excel playing the tactics of the 6 Nations or of last week, so could this be the first sign of Catts influence? He did say before he was selected for the job, in an interview with Sky, that he thought the future England centre pairing was Tuilagi 12 and Joseph 13.

Will be interesting to see how he utilises Tuilagi, because I'm not sure he's a 12, and if they use him in the same vein as Barritt its a waste.

[Islingtonv2]

A slightly bizarre change of direction from Lancaster, i don't have an issue with the selections per se but it demands a very different game plan to take advantage of their obvious strengths, i doubt that can be engineered in a week. I forsee Strettle fielding and chasing high balls and JJ running crash ball, not exactly using their strengths.

[Triangulation]

Flood and Youngs

Both have to shine or for mine they can be phased out.

Unless our pack get mullered then they have no excuses not to go well.

Youngs was defended by many on here for his play in T1 by reference to Farell's positioning too deep etc.

He has his chum now.


Flood for his part has team mates either side of him.

BOTH have gone missing when the acid has come on before. I am thinking of the tilt at the GS under MJ in Ireland vs Ireland.

Boks will be looking to do something similar so massive career games for both.

Strettle looks like a school kid in test rugby.

[Triangulation]

A slightly bizarre change of direction from Lancaster, i don't have an issue with the selections per se but it demands a very different game plan to take advantage of their obvious strengths, i doubt that can be engineered in a week. I forsee Strettle fielding and chasing high balls and JJ running crash ball, not exactly using their strengths.

I dont understand this really.

Could you please expand?

[propdavid_london]

I didnt see much evidence of a game plan in the first test!

[jamesandimac]

Put this on another thread thought it would be better here.

Very interested to see how this backline operates. This selection represents a complete shift in mindset of how England will play. This backline won't excel playing the tactics of the 6 Nations or of last week, so could this be the first sign of Catts influence? He did say before he was selected for the job, in an interview with Sky, that he thought the future England centre pairing was Tuilagi 12 and Joseph 13.

Will be interesting to see how he utilises Tuilagi, because I'm not sure he's a 12, and if they use him in the same vein as Barritt its a waste.

[Chjw131]

Glad to see Flood starting, not that I think he should be number 1 choice going forward, but until Burns and Ford develop a bit more then he's the best option by a long shot.

Strettle on the wing was inevitable once Monye was confirmed as injured. I'm not a huge fan of Monye but he would've offered something different and a bit more physical. Strettle is used to catching and chasing so he's the next best bet.

Manu to 12 was the best choice with JJ, but they're going to need a run of games to cement a good partnership and I hope Lancaster gives that to them and doesn't hoof Barritt straight back in. I was let down in my prediction that Barritt would open up and distribute a bit more once he was out of Sarries colours. Maybe Jonno was right??

Overall i'm happy with the starting 15 but the bench is another matter entirely. As a lot of guys here have said it's frankly woeful. As i've said before I think Lancaster really struggles with the concept of bench selection having not had the experience of needing to pick a cohesive one!

Particularly at altitude I would expect a bench to offer impact and intensity once everyone starts fading. Morgan clearly needs replacing at around 60, as does Botha. How bringing on Dowson and Mears can help is anyone's guess.

Bearing in mind the varying performances from the Baa Baa's game my bench would be:

16. T Youngs (Gray was poor)
17. A Corbisiero
18. T Palmer (Robson and Kitchener hardly staked a claim)
19. T Waldrom (It's Morgan as priority replacement)
20. D Care (Looked sharp and adds tempo)
21. C Hodgson (No more Farrell please)
22. A Goode (If Lowe was fit i'd have him here, he looked very sharp)

Overall I think it adds far more impetus than the bench Lancaster is sticking with.

[Portnoy]

https://www.606v2.com/t30646-england-xv-for-the-second-test

Someone by-passing the stickies?

[Bullsbok]

Very concerned over the bench, the only player there capable of offering additional attacking intent is Goode. His introduction would see Foden either leave the field or move to the wing, neither of which is ideal if we need a try though.

Flood at 10 is a massive bonus, Steyn's defence will be tested and if Flood can just make one of his little half breaks and offload to Manu then we'll be in business, especially, if Manu can orchestrate a big smash on little Lambie on his way to the line. Just knock the stuffing out of the little Bok dynamo a tad. PDV didn't look to quick in the first test and with Flood playing flat the Bok drift should be slowed and Joseph given time to take him on. Need to be careful with the PDV/winger switch that caught us out twice in the first test for big returns.

Lambie played 80min at fullback vs Samoa . i dont think he'll be overawed by one Samoan in the english backline. The English defensive line looks weaker than last week. Farrell and Barritt may be one dimensional but they were very solid defensively. Now we have Toby Flood and a new 12 .13 pairing vs 120 caps of big Springbok centers . I;m interested to see Mr Flood , theres no doubting he's a big attacking plus for England but the last time he found himself up against the Boks he was battered by Willem Alberts and Schalk burger

[pbuk0]

I'm disappointed to see Strettle back on the wing, he isn't very creative any more and hasn't finished brilliantly this season. Having said that there isn't an alternative screaming for selection. Monye would have offered a similar solid all round game but with even less spark and Wade would make me nervous at this stage in his career against a test side. He simply isn't ready yet. I suppose Strettle never did anything particularly to warrant being dropped, and as the man in possession it seems the easiest selection. He should slot in to the systems comfortably. So in terms of what is available I wouldn't dispute the choice, but it's a bit depressing that the options are all a bit rubbish. I've been saying since the squad was announced we're a winger light. I think there are players left at home who would do better than Strettle in the test side.

Johnny May

springs to mind...

Good Shout... I still can't believe he was never in the squad..

[Effervescing Elephant]

Seriously? This is how you choose to spend your retirement?

[Triangulation]

Very concerned over the bench, the only player there capable of offering additional attacking intent is Goode. His introduction would see Foden either leave the field or move to the wing, neither of which is ideal if we need a try though.

Flood at 10 is a massive bonus, Steyn's defence will be tested and if Flood can just make one of his little half breaks and offload to Manu then we'll be in business, especially, if Manu can orchestrate a big smash on little Lambie on his way to the line. Just knock the stuffing out of the little Bok dynamo a tad. PDV didn't look to quick in the first test and with Flood playing flat the Bok drift should be slowed and Joseph given time to take him on. Need to be careful with the PDV/winger switch that caught us out twice in the first test for big returns.

Lambie played 80min at fullback vs Samoa . i dont think he'll be overawed by one Samoan in the english backline. The English defensive line looks weaker than last week. Farrell and Barritt may be one dimensional but they were very solid defensively. Now we have Toby Flood and a new 12 .13 pairing vs 120 caps of big Springbok centers . I;m interested to see Mr Flood , theres no doubting he's a big attacking plus for England but the last time he found himself up against the Boks he was battered by Willem Alberts and Schalk burger

Fair enough.

Frankly though we are not concerned one bit by the attacking threat posed by your experienced centres.

If we were we wouldnt be blooding a brand new 21 year old centre pairing.

Flood will hold up just fine in defence and attack.

[Zander]

I'll be interested to see how the new centre pairing goes this weekend. I think both players complement eachother well in attack, but will they be solid enough in defence? We shall see.

[Bullsbok]

Fair enough.

Frankly though we are not concerned one bit by the attacking threat posed by your experienced centres.

If we were we wouldnt be blooding a brand new 21 year old centre pairing.

Flood will hold up just fine in defence and attack.

Thats understandable , its not like both Bok tries involved their number 13

[EnglishReign]

Would've preferred Care somewhere, but otherwise it's good. Little adventure on the wings though, I suppose injuries haven't helped.

[Effervescing Elephant]

I'd like to think that this selection says "Ok Boks we tried it your way and failed. Have a go at this." I like that we aren't trying the same thing over and over again. We tried, we failed, we changed. If we fail again then we just aren't good enough (yet)! Does anyone think that these changes would have happened if Barritt hadn't been injured?

[Barney McGrew did it]

Well SL is learning - slowly. But still some scary names on the bench. And I don't mean in a good way. More of a for-the-love-of-God way.

When Morgan needs a sit down at 40, on will trundle ... Dowson.
When the front row is shattered and a bit worse for wear at 60, on will skip ... Mears.
Still, after Flood has released Ashton for his hat-trick, Farrell can come on in the last 10 and kick a penalty or two.

[Portnoy]

https://www.606v2.com/t30967-south-africa-vs-england-2nd-test-teams-and-live-match-thread

replies 6
views 125

https://www.606v2.com/t30646-england-xv-for-the-second-test#

replies 171
views 3064

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

https://www.606v2.com/t30967-south-africa-vs-england-2nd-test-teams-and-live-match-thread

replies 6
views 125

https://www.606v2.com/t30646-england-xv-for-the-second-test#

replies 171
views 3064

[/quote]

Comparing a 3-day old thread speculating about England's likely selection with a 4 hour old thread containing the actual ones isn't exactly comparing like with like Portnoy

Though if you want to do not-like comparisons...
https://www.606v2.com/t30789-ireland-vs-new-zealand-2nd-test-team-announcements-and-matchday-thread
replies 510
views 5345

[FerN]

Very concerned over the bench, the only player there capable of offering additional attacking intent is Goode. His introduction would see Foden either leave the field or move to the wing, neither of which is ideal if we need a try though.

Flood at 10 is a massive bonus, Steyn's defence will be tested and if Flood can just make one of his little half breaks and offload to Manu then we'll be in business, especially, if Manu can orchestrate a big smash on little Lambie on his way to the line. Just knock the stuffing out of the little Bok dynamo a tad. PDV didn't look to quick in the first test and with Flood playing flat the Bok drift should be slowed and Joseph given time to take him on. Need to be careful with the PDV/winger switch that caught us out twice in the first test for big returns.

You do know PDV is our previous coach and JDV is our captian/outside centre?

[Geordie]

I like the line up.

Tiger fans have said Manu isnt really a 12...but lets see how he goes any way. Flood can control the game...and i think JJ's defence is better than many might think...
At least its a shift from trying to win the game defence first so to speak.
We still need a big defensive effort ...but we might now actually give the Boks something to think about this time...the best defence is a good offence.

Im looking for much more ball carrying from the forwards especially Morgan, TOm Johnson etc...to create gaps...suck in defenders to allow these backs the chance to create things.

[formerly known as Sam]

You do know PDV is our previous coach and JDV is our captian/outside centre?

Apologies force of habit. I meant JDV obviously.

[FerN]

You do know PDV is our previous coach and JDV is our captian/outside centre?

Apologies force of habit. I meant JDV obviously.

No problem, just that I get scared when PDV is mentioned...

[Effervescing Elephant]

FerN don't pretend that there isn't a tiny part of you that wouldn't enjoy watching PDV getting mullered by Manu T!

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Very concerned over the bench, the only player there capable of offering additional attacking intent is Goode. His introduction would see Foden either leave the field or move to the wing, neither of which is ideal if we need a try though.

Flood at 10 is a massive bonus, Steyn's defence will be tested and if Flood can just make one of his little half breaks and offload to Manu then we'll be in business, especially, if Manu can orchestrate a big smash on little Lambie on his way to the line. Just knock the stuffing out of the little Bok dynamo a tad. PDV didn't look to quick in the first test and with Flood playing flat the Bok drift should be slowed and Joseph given time to take him on. Need to be careful with the PDV/winger switch that caught us out twice in the first test for big returns.

You do know PDV is our previous coach and JDV is our captian/outside centre?

FerN, i thought that PdV was you current forwards coach?

[hugehandoff]

[quote="Triangulation"]other point to note....

a lot of us wanted Haskell at least on bench.

He did himself no favours in the dirt tracker game though. Idiot.

Please qualify the above remark. His yellow yesterday should not even have been a penalty IMHO. As we saw yesterday there was a different interpretation re a player being on his feet challenging for the ball. Haskell was on his feet but put a hand on the ground which is not allowed technically but is not pinged in the Northern Hemisphere but was yesterday a few times. A bit harsh to brand the Brand an idiot. He did not play well enough overall to warrant selection, but I would still prefer him to Dowson.

[Triangulation]

Fair enough.

Frankly though we are not concerned one bit by the attacking threat posed by your experienced centres.

If we were we wouldnt be blooding a brand new 21 year old centre pairing.

Flood will hold up just fine in defence and attack.

Thats understandable , its not like both Bok tries involved their number 13

Yeah that is true but then again my granny could have had the same involvement as the Bok 13 for those tries.

[Effervescing Elephant]

Is she available for the third test Tri?

[Triangulation]

[quote="hugehandoff"]

other point to note....

a lot of us wanted Haskell at least on bench.

He did himself no favours in the dirt tracker game though. Idiot.

Please qualify the above remark. His yellow yesterday should not even have been a penalty IMHO. As we saw yesterday there was a different interpretation re a player being on his feet challenging for the ball. Haskell was on his feet but put a hand on the ground which is not allowed technically but is not pinged in the Northern Hemisphere but was yesterday a few times. A bit harsh to brand the Brand an idiot. He did not play well enough overall to warrant selection, but I would still prefer him to Dowson.

He played poorly when given his big chance. He got repeatedly penalised for failing to adapt to the ref and then he got himself carded. Just what we needed from him. The coach couldnt have picked him even if he had wanted to after that. Nice one Haskell. Bitterly disappointed.

[yappysnap]

What the Poopie does Care have to do to get a place in the test team?! wake up Lancester please, Dickson is Poopie compared to him!

Otherwise interesting team I guess

[Triangulation]

Look here's the news....

i dont think were going to win, for one im not convinced we can cope defensively with the multi wave running of the bok bashers or with their territorial kicking game particularly now brown is gone.

also our bench blooooooooows. well need to be 20+ up at 60 to stand a chance

BUT....

I am pleased to see a team bristling with attacking intent 8-15 (not that strettle is very good)

we offer threats all over the park if the tight 5 can get their act together.

we need to see carrying from our front row and botha.

i hope to see flood , tuilagi, ashton operating as a lethal try scoring Triangle of death for SA near to scrums and rucks or off lineout ball.

I want us to Triangulate our way to that magical 20 point lead! ....and then hang on grimly with Dowson Mears and co......

[Geordie]

We need to see carrying from the back row aswell!! ALOT more than the last test. And I could do a better job than Mears. Youngs should have been on the bench

[formerly known as Sam]

Got to agree with you there Geordie, Tom Youngs would have really added something to that bench. He might not have added a brilliant lineout throwing option but he would off a lot more in the scrum and around the park than Mears. He was a stand out player coming off the bench against the SA Southern Baabaas. Big carries and big tackles are what we'll need in the latter stages of the game and he could have offered that. Hell, there's Gray as well and he'd have offered a much better all round game than Mears.

Yappy we all wanted Care on the bench ahead of Dickson. Lancaster is nothing if not loyal though.

[Wydnej]

People calling for Youngs on here to be on the bench. I really cannot understand the logic. The kid may be good in the loose, I have yet to be convinced, but he is an absolute liability in the line out!

Look at the Jeff Final, he came on and the Tigers needed solid line out ball to come back at Quins and he fluffed his lines continually. That could very well be the situation he'd be called into if he was on the bench.

For me Joe Gray, whilst not the biggest, offers secure line out ball and he gets around the park to assist scramble defence.

As for the whole team selection, well it's do or die by Bomber isn't it? He's got to gamble on this or the series is gone. As others have rightly pointed out that is a bench to close out a tight game, maybe he's thinking if we haven't done it by 60 mins with the team we put out then it's highly unlikely we'd be able to do any more with regards to expansive play putting pressure on the Bok with variety.

I don't know whether to applaud his bravery or wish to god we had a Plan B for once...

Wyddy

[Chjw131]

Gray generally is good in the line-out I will agree, but in the Southern Baa Baa's game his throwing was very poor and he didn't exactly make up for that in the loose.

Tom Youngs, as I outlined in my original posts would add far more dynamism in the loose and some real impetus going into the last 20. He may struggle at line-out time but with Parling calling the shots that may offer him some degree of comfort.

Put it this way, as far as his line-out goes it can go one of two ways:

a) He has a mare and misses every throw, in which case nobody expected him to be ultra-relaible and he will make up for it in the loose

b) He has a reasonable go and hits a majority of targets, in which case his confidence goes through the roof and he's further down the road to becoming a test hooker.

There's very little to lose by giving him a go, we desperately need some depth at hooker and he's determined enough to correct his throwing over time.

[Barney McGrew did it]

There is absolutely no place in international rugby for a hooker who can't throw-in. None. Let Tom Youngs practice for his club (if they can put up with it) and be considered for selection when he's ticked that box.

How about we pick a winger (ie. someone can defend as well as finish) for the wing, a no 8 who can last more that 40 mins, a bench that has impact rather than just injury replacements, a FH who can pass (to his back 3 as well as his centres), and a gameplan for grown-up rugby players. SL's righted a few wrongs for T2 but still has a bit to learn.

[Triangulation]

There is absolutely no place in international rugby for a hooker who can't throw-in. None. Let Tom Youngs practice for his club (if they can put up with it) and be considered for selection when he's ticked that box.

How about we pick a winger (ie. someone can defend as well as finish) for the wing, a no 8 who can last more that 40 mins, a bench that has impact rather than just injury replacements, a FH who can pass (to his back 3 as well as his centres), and a gameplan for grown-up rugby players. SL's righted a few wrongs for T2 but still has a bit to learn.

Yes we have a LOT of growing up to do.

We are much improved selectors under Bomber at least but still making mistakes that do not happen elsewhere. I just hope we put our best side for one test one day before the better players have to retire and were back to rebuilding....

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