Where now for Ireland?

First topic message reminder :

Is the question posed by the year we've had. I'm trying to take a long view of our entire season rather than focusing on the tragicomedy of that last disgraceful game. 2011-2012 has been an unusually long and exceptionally disappointing season of test rugby for Ireland. It started with a lot of pessimism around the Ireland team (losing all 4 RWC warm-up tests consecutively) and ended in a similarly distressing fashion (Ireland's worst ever result and performance in the Southern Hemisphere). The statistics tell a similar story; in the seventeen matches we've played we have won just six, having drawn one and suffered ten defeats.

Wins over Australia, Italy (x2), Scotland, the USA and Russia are all we have to show for this year. For many the win we had over Australia was a triumphant validation of Kidney, who had come under heavy criticism following a string of incoherent and error-strewn performances in the lead up to that game. But it's worth noting it was Irelands only win against a side in the Top 8 of the world rankings in the last 12 months.

On the other hand we've had defeats to Scotland, England (x2), Wales (x2), France (x2) and New Zealand (x3). And one draw against France. It's distressing reading for any Irish fan. Putting the All Blacks series aside, since around 2005 we have always aimed to compete at the top end of the Six Nations table. But now the stats show that not only are we losing out to France, England and Wales- they've been fairly consistent and well practiced at beating us as well. We look comfortably a bottom three side in the NH rather than a top 3 team based on these results.

So my question is; how do we get back to the standard that is now demanded and expected of Ireland on the international stage i.e. being one of the top European sides? Can we even do that? Are we in for feast and famine over the next five years? What new ideas need to come into the set-up- could a clear out of senior players such as the one that led to Hayes, Horgan, Stringer, BOD and ROG getting capped in 2000 benefit us come the autumn? Do we need to make a break with the current coaching regime? Or is it just a case of fine tuning- a few new faces working under Kidney in the coaching set-up, a few new players coming in... gradual evolution of the sort Kidney has been trying so hard to make work.

What do you think 606v2? I am at a loss.

Sin é wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I think the difference was with Henry he had an impressive record and the quarter final exit was seen as an aberration. The main alternative was Robbie Deans who was involved with another World Cup disappointment and the NZRFU went with the man who seemed best for the job.

Kidney has not brought the same level of consistency to Ireland. His contract was extended though. Are their serious contenders for the jobs though? Sometimes change for the sake of change is not the answer. But Kidney does appear to have run out of lives and so a justification to the IRFU does seem in order and if he is deemed unable to justify Ireland's recent record, then he should fall on his sword.

He was heavily criticised for leaving Doug Howlett in the stands and not having any real backup for Dan Carter as far as I can recall. Henry with Wales & the Lions didn't have a great record. Who he is coaching might have a lot to do with his success.

Can't see too many wanting the Ireland job. Last time around there were 12 applicants for the munster job and 2 for the Ireland one. Jake White & Meyer are among those who turned it down (and thats when most this Irish team were still in their prime).

We had Nick Evans who wasn't too shabby. Unfortunately both Evans and Carter got injured and we didn't have Stephen Donald to bring onto the field and score the winning goal. We had Luke McAlister instead and he got a yellow card in the first half and seemed clueless about how to drop a goal.

Evans, at the time of the 2007 world cup, was the 2nd best out half in world rugby.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Our '07 report was that knowbody really knew what went wrong and wouldn't be tellin' anyway.

Clinical.... given that all the negatives were quickly rectified in time for New Zealand 2012

They were undercooked. Eddie wrapped them in cotton wool (and hence this time Ireland had a load of tough warm-up matches). Also said the facilities/living conditions were horrible in France and why they based themselves in Queenstown at this world cup.

Main thing was that they were undercooked and then they panicked.

Undercooked because you've already said they were the best we've had?

Nice one. Try over-rated. I know you know that word - you use it abundantly for the present lot.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I think the difference was with Henry he had an impressive record and the quarter final exit was seen as an aberration. The main alternative was Robbie Deans who was involved with another World Cup disappointment and the NZRFU went with the man who seemed best for the job.

Kidney has not brought the same level of consistency to Ireland. His contract was extended though. Are their serious contenders for the jobs though? Sometimes change for the sake of change is not the answer. But Kidney does appear to have run out of lives and so a justification to the IRFU does seem in order and if he is deemed unable to justify Ireland's recent record, then he should fall on his sword.

He was heavily criticised for leaving Doug Howlett in the stands and not having any real backup for Dan Carter as far as I can recall. Henry with Wales & the Lions didn't have a great record. Who he is coaching might have a lot to do with his success.

Can't see too many wanting the Ireland job. Last time around there were 12 applicants for the munster job and 2 for the Ireland one. Jake White & Meyer are among those who turned it down (and thats when most this Irish team were still in their prime).

We had Nick Evans who wasn't too shabby. Unfortunately both Evans and Carter got injured and we didn't have Stephen Donald to bring onto the field and score the winning goal. We had Luke McAlister instead and he got a yellow card in the first half and seemed clueless about how to drop a goal.

Fair enough on Evans, I'd forgotten him. Just remember Luke McAlister having a 'mare. If he had Doug on he probably wouldn't have had to worry about NZ needing a drop goal!

And how did you get you hands on that top secret keep-it-in-the-backrooms report??!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There's a bloomin' leak!

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Our '07 report was that knowbody really knew what went wrong and wouldn't be tellin' anyway.

Clinical.... given that all the negatives were quickly rectified in time for New Zealand 2012

They were undercooked. Eddie wrapped them in cotton wool (and hence this time Ireland had a load of tough warm-up matches). Also said the facilities/living conditions were horrible in France and why they based themselves in Queenstown at this world cup.

Main thing was that they were undercooked and then they panicked.

Undercooked because you've already said they were the best we've had?

Nice one. Try over-rated. I know you know that word - you use it abundantly for the present lot.

I'm saying the report said they were undercooked & that the facilities were poor. You are claiming that no one was going to tell the public what went wrong.

Edit: That team peaked in the '07 6Ns. It was downhill after that.

Joe Schmidt is the obvious candidate for me. Doesn't his contract with Leinster end at the same time as Kidney's Ireland contract? Makes sense to get him. Ireland should have been building a winning test team around this great Leinster side for the last two years. But Kidney's tactics are completely different to what is obviously successful on the field.

The wheels started coming off pretty much directly after the tackle laws changed and the "anti-rugby" ELV era ended. It was obvious that Kidney's Ireland and PDV's South Africa started to struggle immediately. The Saffers probably felt like PDV's reign would never end. But it did. Unbelievably, we gave Kidney a new contract before the RWC, when alarm bells were ringing loudly at the teams poor performances. Crazy decision from the IRFU.

It's been depressing watching Ireland for the last three years. The only thing harder to look at than our list of results, is actually watching the team repeatedly kick the ball away, or sometimes shuffle the ball out to the wing and be pushed into touch. Where now for Ireland? We badly need a new coaching team and have done for years.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Kidney has not brought the same level of consistency to Ireland. His contract was extended though. Are their serious contenders for the jobs though? Sometimes change for the sake of change is not the answer. But Kidney does appear to have run out of lives and so a justification to the IRFU does seem in order and if he is deemed unable to justify Ireland's recent record, then he should fall on his sword.

Yeah thats it. Thats why I think we should bring in a new guy (Ruddock? Schmidt? O'Shea?) and let him pick his coaching team between the AI and 6N. I think the national team has such deep-rooted problems that a) appointing a new coach for the sake of appointing a new coach is a bad move, we need to take our time over the next appointment and get the right man to put the appropriate structures in place and b) we shouldn't expect improvement, we need the new guy to clear the rubble and build from the ground up again.

It will take time and patience. It's not just the coach that needs to be examined; it's the relationships between the provinces and national side, it's the whole structure of how we prepare for international games, how the Player Management system works in practice and how the central contracting system works, how provinces expose young players to gametime, how talent is distributed amongst the provinces... the coaching staff is a big problem but if we're serious about getting back into the To 3 in the World Rankings and competing for Grand Slams and beating the SH sides we need to look at a MUCH bigger picture.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Our '07 report was that knowbody really knew what went wrong and wouldn't be tellin' anyway.

Clinical.... given that all the negatives were quickly rectified in time for New Zealand 2012

They were undercooked. Eddie wrapped them in cotton wool (and hence this time Ireland had a load of tough warm-up matches). Also said the facilities/living conditions were horrible in France and why they based themselves in Queenstown at this world cup.

Main thing was that they were undercooked and then they panicked.

Undercooked because you've already said they were the best we've had?

Nice one. Try over-rated. I know you know that word - you use it abundantly for the present lot.

I'm saying the report said they were undercooked & that the facilities were poor. You are claiming that no one was going to tell the public what went wrong.

And you were suggesting they shouldn't. What went wrong in '07 had much to do with the players but little to do with preparation.... and it wasn't on any report. The truth isn't a report, the truth is the truth. Are his players at fault for the constant underperformances (even though they are not always the same players doing it) or has his overview been wrong? He'll never say which and you'll never want him to. Fine, so he should keep the "I know how to fix it" comments for the backroom meetings too. Problem solved.

Things I’d like to see happen in Irish rugby:

1. Schmidt to be appointed national coach.
2. Schmidt to meet with provincial coaches and develop a national game plan
3. An end to central contracts
4. The committee for rubber stamping foreign signings to include a member of national coaching staff
5. A gradual reduction in the number of NIQ players in each provincial squad to 3
6. Get rid of provincial A sides
7. All provincial players on the fringe of selection/returning from injury to be allowed to play in the AIL

Would hate to see Schmidt leave Leinster but it would be for the greater good. He should be allowed to pick his coaching ticket himself but I’d love it if Gibbs stayed at Leinster. We need a national rugby philosophy, and there’s no better thinker in the game today than JS, the kiwi coaches at the other provinces will make this a bit easier.

Get rid of central contracts, it creates an “elite” player at international level, all players would still be subject to the player welfare program and would have to attend national team meetings if required, i.e. the IRFU still have the same control but they don’t pay the wage directly.

The national coach should have some say in who the provinces are allowed to sign. At the moment this committee meets behind closed doors and nobody really knows who they are, why not make things more transparent. No need for position specific signings, just get these guys to think about the national team interests when they approve signings (but they gave me a rubber stamp, a RUBBER STAMP!!).

3 quality NIQ players per province is doable and sustainable. I think we’re heading in this direction already though. so I’ll say no more on it.

The provincial A sides, what purpose do they serve? Player development? How many games do they actually play? 6 or 7 per year in the B&I cup? That’s not much use to a developing player. They’d be better served playing proper competitive rugby at AIL level, but at the moment they can’t because AIL clubs are only allowed have 2 pro contracted players on their books.

I said this in another thread a week ago. I have been disappointed with Kidney for the past year but was prepared to give him this summer series. The difference between Ireland, Wales, England and this French team is marginal. The real test for where we are in the world game is against the southern hemisphere. We utterly failed. There are many theories about why we are failing and plenty of delighted outsiders taking the opportunity to stick the boot into the Irish provinces. Just to put it in perspective, Leinster are doing well. Ulster, my province and don't anyone mistake me for being anything other than a passionate Ulsterman, were incredibly lucky to get the draw we did to Heineken Cup final. We got a painfully average Munster team in the quarter finals and Edinburgh in the semis. Sure, from a provincial point of view we had a pretty good season, but we were outside the Rabo playoffs which Munster and Glasgow got to. Munster were destroyed in their match against the Ospreys. Irish rugby is not in a rosy field of excellence and the success of Leinster is distorting the picture. Munster are very average. Aside from Ryan, O'Connell and possibly Earls they just don't have the players. For sure, I think they have some talented players coming through and I particularly like the look of some of the young backrowers, but they are a couple of season from being ready for international rugby. Look at Ulster, where are our Irish players? Best for sure, and certainly Ferris. Two of our best performers in Cave and Henry don't get a look in for the Irish side, and in Cave's case Kidney prefers to bring someone from off a Portuguese beach than give him a start. Trimble is a solid player but little more than that.

I've said it before and I'll repeat it, comments that we need to play the 'Leinster way' are nonsense. We need to play in a way that suits the players in a green shirt. That might be in a similar fashion to Leinster. Thats grand. But Kidney steadfastly wants to play in the same fashion as his Munster sides. The problem is that he doesn't have the backrow to do it, and he doesn't have a 10 to carry out that style of play. This isn't about O'Gara vs Sexton and I hope discussion doesn't descend to that. Sexton is simply not good enough at trying to dictate a match when Ireland are on the back foot. O'Gara, in his pomp which he is nowhere near now, could do that. Sexton suits a certain style of play but Kidney plays a tactical game that accentuates his weaknesses. Lunacy. It is difficult to play with quick phase rugby when you pick three ball carriers in the backrow. Credit to Sean O'Brien, he is really growing into the 7 shirt and had two very good games where he outplayed McCaw and that is not to be sniffed at. Why are we so obsessed with playing the best individuals and not pick someone who, on the face of it, might not be as rounded a player but does a simple task very well? Dan Lydiate is the perfect example for me. I just don't get him as a player- he doesn't carry the ball well, he doesn't personally turn the ball over much, but what he does is tackle all day long and allow the other players in the unit to excel. If you pick who is the better player I would pick Ryan Jones, or even try Tipuric. Gatland goes for the best unit that will carry out a tactical gameplan. People might have different solutions to who this is, I think it could be Chris Henry. It is no surprise that Ferris plays much better with Henry in the side, and the mark of Henry's importance is how out pack fared without him against Ednburgh and with him less than half fit in the final.

We don't have a big physical 12, so why does Kidney try and play Wallace as a crash ball merchant? It is absolutely insane. Wallace is good at what he does, but in a green shirt he is a square peg in a round hole. We don't have physical backs. In fact, Earls aside, we don't have really quick backs. So what do we have, and how can they be used to our strengths? To my mind what we have and where we should have an advantage over our Six Nations rivals is we have really good, natural footballers. It might be that O'Driscoll should play 12 where his natural skills can make room for others. It might be that Luke Fitzgerald, a young player who I think has an outstanding rugby brain, could play 12 where his vision, distribution and quick step could make round for others. It might be that Keith Earls has that eye for a gap and speed to go on the outside shoulder. Maybe it might be Tommy Bowe whose skills are his lines of running and vision. We have just finite resources and yet the minds of the Irish coaching staff seems to be fixed on what other sides do and how we can counteract that. Is it so hard to say 'bugger to Wales, France and England, South Africa and Australia' and look at the players we have and try and find a system and tactics that suit them, that help us to try and win games rather than going out not to lose?

Kidney is not a man if vision. That much is clear. There aren't many candidates for the job. We we get rid of Kidney then we have to do it soon so a new coach can be appointed before the start of the Rabo or English premiership. If not, then appoint and interim coach where Mike Ruddock would be an outstanding choice in that regard. I don't think he could be a permanent solution given the problem he had with player power whilst in charge of Wales. But he would make an excellent backs or attack coach under any head coach. Conor O'Shea has done a very good job in charge of Harlequins and I think he could do a good job with the right coaching team. Obviously Schidmt is going to be a favourite. Wayne Smith could be contender, and certainly could form part of a coaching team. Greg Feek has done a superb job with the scrum, and until this season I doubt there would be many supporters who could criticise the work that Les Kiss did in defence. Gert Small has produced a poor pack in the past three seasons where our counter rucking and work at the breakdown is just not good enough. Our fitness and conditioning has gone way downhill, and a skills coach is obviously needed given the basic schoolboy handling errors we made in this series, but across the previous two seasons. Brian McLaughlin could fill this role.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't expect things to immediately improve when we get a new coach. I hope people do not expect that. However, I believe that if we can get the right person, given time, they will be able to create a team, capable of competing at the highest level, with a consistent, structured game plan that suits the players. I hope they can create a team where everyone will be on the same wavelength, and where there will be both an organised defence and an organised attack. Then we can really see what players form the best team, and which players will be left behind.

Right now we have 15 individuals running around not really sure what they are doing. It is easy to pinpoint individuals in these situations, and say who did what wrong. If you take a good functioning team, even the unspectacular, hard working player who doesn't win the MOTM awards has a real part to play and overall the entire team does well. If there is a chink in the armour, and something isn't working, you can fix it. You need to have a team first though.

The coach creates the team, and Kidney has had 4 years to do so. He has failed.

I think that's a bit unfair on Kidney and is perhaps coloured by the defeat last saturday.........one grand slam in 4 years is not bad............whether it's time for a new man at the helm though, perhaps.........

Notch wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Kidney has not brought the same level of consistency to Ireland. His contract was extended though. Are their serious contenders for the jobs though? Sometimes change for the sake of change is not the answer. But Kidney does appear to have run out of lives and so a justification to the IRFU does seem in order and if he is deemed unable to justify Ireland's recent record, then he should fall on his sword.

Yeah thats it. Thats why I think we should bring in a new guy (Ruddock? Schmidt? O'Shea?) and let him pick his coaching team between the AI and 6N. I think the national team has such deep-rooted problems that a) appointing a new coach for the sake of appointing a new coach is a bad move, we need to take our time over the next appointment and get the right man to put the appropriate structures in place and b) we shouldn't expect improvement, we need the new guy to clear the rubble and build from the ground up again.

It will take time and patience. It's not just the coach that needs to be examined; it's the relationships between the provinces and national side, it's the whole structure of how we prepare for international games, how the Player Management system works in practice and how the central contracting system works, how provinces expose young players to gametime, how talent is distributed amongst the provinces... the coaching staff is a big problem but if we're serious about getting back into the To 3 in the World Rankings and competing for Grand Slams and beating the SH sides we need to look at a MUCH bigger picture.

I would be happy for whoever the new coach is to come in and set his stall out and say 'I'm building for the World Cup. We need to go back to basics and find a tactical plan and style that suits the players we have. The next two Six Nations might not herald great results, but we are heading in a direction to bring long term success'. Pretty much the attitude Robbie Deans had when he took the Australian job. More long term planning and less short termism.

Its sad that this whole discussion is moot. The IRFU will not get rid of Kidney.

Notch wrote:it's the whole structure of how we prepare for international games, how the Player Management system works in practice and how the central contracting system works, how provinces expose young players to gametime, how talent is distributed amongst the provinces... the coaching staff is a big problem but if we're serious about getting back into the To 3 in the World Rankings and competing for Grand Slams and beating the SH sides we need to look at a MUCH bigger picture.

You're right Notch, but to be honest I can't see to much wrong with what the provinces are doing. They're very well run. They're quite successful. Only one of our pro sides hasn't been champions of Europe. The other three have, two of them multiple times. What are they doing wrong? What are they doing that could be detrimental to the Ireland team? They're delivering well coached, successful, confident players to Kidney. One failure of the provinces has been producing native tightheads and playing them. But the IRFU has final say on signing foreign tightheads, and they didn't have to give the go ahead on those foreigners.

Everything that's wrong seems to be at the top end. The coaching team is a shambles; the IRFU are incompetent. There are players on central contracts that shouldn't be on central contracts. Are they getting selected to justify the contracts or because they're the best in their position? Why did Kidney and co get a new contract? Was it because he was doing an excellent job, with all those defeats in the two years before he got it? Or was there politics in the IRFU. Did someone who saw Kidney as "his man" have influence at the time? Because the team were playing poorly.

Ireland's failures can't be blamed on anything the provinces do (except the tighhead issue). We comb over every defeat in detail here. It's always the same. Bad selections. Lots of them. Poor use of the bench. Bad gameplan that's ridiculously easy to predict and deal with for opposing teams. And worse still, it's a gameplan that isn't particularly well suited to the players we have.

Do you think Ireland and Wales would have both benefited from playing a game vs a Barbarians or S15 side on SH soil, rather than home fixtures the week before the first test?

I don't think those kinds of games are suitable for anybody unless you have a big enough squad to put in other players. Far better to arrive and put out your first squad and have enough preparation time together.

In these games, the opposition has a chance to see the players they are going to face and their strengths and weaknesses. Obviously they have a pretty good idea of past matches but often I think it's best just to go straight in and play.

Mickado wrote:Things I’d like to see happen in Irish rugby:

1. Schmidt to be appointed national coach.
2. Schmidt to meet with provincial coaches and develop a national game plan
3. An end to central contracts
4. The committee for rubber stamping foreign signings to include a member of national coaching staff
5. A gradual reduction in the number of NIQ players in each provincial squad to 3
6. Get rid of provincial A sides
7. All provincial players on the fringe of selection/returning from injury to be allowed to play in the AIL

A great list to get things churning Mickado (and at this point any stir up would be advantageous because stagnancy is creeping and catching). I been thinking I'd like to see Schmidt as national coach too over the year or two, but then I moved on and now I think I'd also like to see him stay put (for continuity that is proving successful) and let's find another coach with the same philosophy of how to play the game to take on Ireland....then work on from there with your list, especially the discussions about developing a more cohesive version of rugby amongst the Provinces so that we truly do get players 'slotting in' when called up to International.

John Cregan wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't expect things to immediately improve when we get a new coach. I hope people do not expect that. However, I believe that if we can get the right person, given time, they will be able to create a team, capable of competing at the highest level, with a consistent, structured game plan that suits the players. I hope they can create a team where everyone will be on the same wavelength, and where there will be both an organised defence and an organised attack. Then we can really see what players form the best team, and which players will be left behind.

Right now we have 15 individuals running around not really sure what they are doing. It is easy to pinpoint individuals in these situations, and say who did what wrong. If you take a good functioning team, even the unspectacular, hard working player who doesn't win the MOTM awards has a real part to play and overall the entire team does well. If there is a chink in the armour, and something isn't working, you can fix it. You need to have a team first though.

The coach creates the team, and Kidney has had 4 years to do so. He has failed.

I think that's a bit unfair on Kidney and is perhaps coloured by the defeat last saturday.........one grand slam in 4 years is not bad............whether it's time for a new man at the helm though, perhaps.........

Unfair on Kidney?? Where have you been the past few years? To say he has failed is an understatement, I think he has caused lasting damage to this team and made it that much harder for our next coaching staff, whoever that may be.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I said this in another thread a week ago. I have been disappointed with Kidney for the past year but was prepared to give him this summer series. The difference between Ireland, Wales, England and this French team is marginal. The real test for where we are in the world game is against the southern hemisphere. We utterly failed. There are many theories about why we are failing and plenty of delighted outsiders taking the opportunity to stick the boot into the Irish provinces. Just to put it in perspective, Leinster are doing well. Ulster, my province and don't anyone mistake me for being anything other than a passionate Ulsterman, were incredibly lucky to get the draw we did to Heineken Cup final. We got a painfully average Munster team in the quarter finals and Edinburgh in the semis. Sure, from a provincial point of view we had a pretty good season, but we were outside the Rabo playoffs which Munster and Glasgow got to. Munster were destroyed in their match against the Ospreys. Irish rugby is not in a rosy field of excellence and the success of Leinster is distorting the picture. Munster are very average. Aside from Ryan, O'Connell and possibly Earls they just don't have the players. For sure, I think they have some talented players coming through and I particularly like the look of some of the young backrowers, but they are a couple of season from being ready for international rugby. Look at Ulster, where are our Irish players? Best for sure, and certainly Ferris. Two of our best performers in Cave and Henry don't get a look in for the Irish side, and in Cave's case Kidney prefers to bring someone from off a Portuguese beach than give him a start. Trimble is a solid player but little more than that.

I've said it before and I'll repeat it, comments that we need to play the 'Leinster way' are nonsense. We need to play in a way that suits the players in a green shirt. That might be in a similar fashion to Leinster. Thats grand. But Kidney steadfastly wants to play in the same fashion as his Munster sides. The problem is that he doesn't have the backrow to do it, and he doesn't have a 10 to carry out that style of play. This isn't about O'Gara vs Sexton and I hope discussion doesn't descend to that. Sexton is simply not good enough at trying to dictate a match when Ireland are on the back foot. O'Gara, in his pomp which he is nowhere near now, could do that. Sexton suits a certain style of play but Kidney plays a tactical game that accentuates his weaknesses. Lunacy. It is difficult to play with quick phase rugby when you pick three ball carriers in the backrow. Credit to Sean O'Brien, he is really growing into the 7 shirt and had two very good games where he outplayed McCaw and that is not to be sniffed at. Why are we so obsessed with playing the best individuals and not pick someone who, on the face of it, might not be as rounded a player but does a simple task very well? Dan Lydiate is the perfect example for me. I just don't get him as a player- he doesn't carry the ball well, he doesn't personally turn the ball over much, but what he does is tackle all day long and allow the other players in the unit to excel. If you pick who is the better player I would pick Ryan Jones, or even try Tipuric. Gatland goes for the best unit that will carry out a tactical gameplan. People might have different solutions to who this is, I think it could be Chris Henry. It is no surprise that Ferris plays much better with Henry in the side, and the mark of Henry's importance is how out pack fared without him against Ednburgh and with him less than half fit in the final.

We don't have a big physical 12, so why does Kidney try and play Wallace as a crash ball merchant? It is absolutely insane. Wallace is good at what he does, but in a green shirt he is a square peg in a round hole. We don't have physical backs. In fact, Earls aside, we don't have really quick backs. So what do we have, and how can they be used to our strengths? To my mind what we have and where we should have an advantage over our Six Nations rivals is we have really good, natural footballers. It might be that O'Driscoll should play 12 where his natural skills can make room for others. It might be that Luke Fitzgerald, a young player who I think has an outstanding rugby brain, could play 12 where his vision, distribution and quick step could make round for others. It might be that Keith Earls has that eye for a gap and speed to go on the outside shoulder. Maybe it might be Tommy Bowe whose skills are his lines of running and vision. We have just finite resources and yet the minds of the Irish coaching staff seems to be fixed on what other sides do and how we can counteract that. Is it so hard to say 'bugger to Wales, France and England, South Africa and Australia' and look at the players we have and try and find a system and tactics that suit them, that help us to try and win games rather than going out not to lose?

Kidney is not a man if vision. That much is clear. There aren't many candidates for the job. We we get rid of Kidney then we have to do it soon so a new coach can be appointed before the start of the Rabo or English premiership. If not, then appoint and interim coach where Mike Ruddock would be an outstanding choice in that regard. I don't think he could be a permanent solution given the problem he had with player power whilst in charge of Wales. But he would make an excellent backs or attack coach under any head coach. Conor O'Shea has done a very good job in charge of Harlequins and I think he could do a good job with the right coaching team. Obviously Schidmt is going to be a favourite. Wayne Smith could be contender, and certainly could form part of a coaching team. Greg Feek has done a superb job with the scrum, and until this season I doubt there would be many supporters who could criticise the work that Les Kiss did in defence. Gert Small has produced a poor pack in the past three seasons where our counter rucking and work at the breakdown is just not good enough. Our fitness and conditioning has gone way downhill, and a skills coach is obviously needed given the basic schoolboy handling errors we made in this series, but across the previous two seasons. Brian McLaughlin could fill this role.

Hook - that was a good read, I agree with a lot of what you are saying. We need an Ireland team, not a provincial team.

SecretFly wrote:

Mickado wrote:Things I’d like to see happen in Irish rugby:

1. Schmidt to be appointed national coach.
2. Schmidt to meet with provincial coaches and develop a national game plan
3. An end to central contracts
4. The committee for rubber stamping foreign signings to include a member of national coaching staff
5. A gradual reduction in the number of NIQ players in each provincial squad to 3
6. Get rid of provincial A sides
7. All provincial players on the fringe of selection/returning from injury to be allowed to play in the AIL

A great list to get things churning Mickado (and at this point any stir up would be advantageous because stagnancy is creeping and catching). I been thinking I'd like to see Schmidt as national coach too over the year or two, but then I moved on and now I think I'd also like to see him stay put (for continuity that is proving successful) and let's find another coach with the same philosophy of how to play the game to take on Ireland....then work on from there with your list, especially the discussions about developing a more cohesive version of rugby amongst the Provinces so that we truly do get players 'slotting in' when called up to International.

That’s the thing Fly, I suggest Joe as coach now because right now his methods are working. In 3 or 4 years time, maybe there’s another rule change, maybe this style doesn’t work. But if he was there now and these measure were in place then we wouldn’t be so inert to the evolution of the way the game is played.

Rory,

Your comments are way OTT on Kidney....."lasting damage"????

In 4 years he has one a Grand Slam and Ireland had their BEST EVER World Cup. Undoubedly, there have been some poor performances in there, but some top class ones also............

At the end of the day, Rugby is the 4th Sport in Ireland behind Soccer, Gaelic Football & Hurling and for a small country, what are our expectations??

Personally, i think a new coach might be the way to go to freshen things up, but i have no issue with Kidney continuing.........

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Notch wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Kidney has not brought the same level of consistency to Ireland. His contract was extended though. Are their serious contenders for the jobs though? Sometimes change for the sake of change is not the answer. But Kidney does appear to have run out of lives and so a justification to the IRFU does seem in order and if he is deemed unable to justify Ireland's recent record, then he should fall on his sword.

Yeah thats it. Thats why I think we should bring in a new guy (Ruddock? Schmidt? O'Shea?) and let him pick his coaching team between the AI and 6N. I think the national team has such deep-rooted problems that a) appointing a new coach for the sake of appointing a new coach is a bad move, we need to take our time over the next appointment and get the right man to put the appropriate structures in place and b) we shouldn't expect improvement, we need the new guy to clear the rubble and build from the ground up again.

It will take time and patience. It's not just the coach that needs to be examined; it's the relationships between the provinces and national side, it's the whole structure of how we prepare for international games, how the Player Management system works in practice and how the central contracting system works, how provinces expose young players to gametime, how talent is distributed amongst the provinces... the coaching staff is a big problem but if we're serious about getting back into the To 3 in the World Rankings and competing for Grand Slams and beating the SH sides we need to look at a MUCH bigger picture.

I would be happy for whoever the new coach is to come in and set his stall out and say 'I'm building for the World Cup. We need to go back to basics and find a tactical plan and style that suits the players we have. The next two Six Nations might not herald great results, but we are heading in a direction to bring long term success'. Pretty much the attitude Robbie Deans had when he took the Australian job. More long term planning and less short termism.

Its sad that this whole discussion is moot. The IRFU will not get rid of Kidney.

Wasn't that what was happening after the GS year? Don't think the fans were too happy with what was happening then. The team has changed radically since. Of that team that started on Saturday only Best, Wallace, BOD & Kearney have won a GS, with ROG & DOC on the bench. That is a lot of change over 2 years, with probably Best, BOD & Kearney considered as certain starters now.


Robbie Dean's plans didn't work out for the world cup, did they?

John Cregan wrote:Rory,

Your comments are way OTT on Kidney....."lasting damage"????

In 4 years he has one a Grand Slam and Ireland had their BEST EVER World Cup. Undoubedly, there have been some poor performances in there, but some top class ones also............

At the end of the day, Rugby is the 4th Sport in Ireland behind Soccer, Gaelic Football & Hurling and for a small country, what are our expectations??

Personally, i think a new coach might be the way to go to freshen things up, but i have no issue with Kidney continuing.........

Making the QFs is not as much of an achievement as you seem to think. Fiji, Samoa have all equaled our BEST EVER and Argentina and Wales (among others) have beaten it.

John Cregan wrote:Rory,

Your comments are way OTT on Kidney....."lasting damage"????

In 4 years he has one a Grand Slam and Ireland had their BEST EVER World Cup. Undoubedly, there have been some poor performances in there, but some top class ones also............

At the end of the day, Rugby is the 4th Sport in Ireland behind Soccer, Gaelic Football & Hurling and for a small country, what are our expectations??

Personally, i think a new coach might be the way to go to freshen things up, but i have no issue with Kidney continuing.........

There is no point even responding properly to this. If you are happy with rubbish performances, fair enough.

Mickado wrote:
That’s the thing Fly, I suggest Joe as coach now because right now his methods are working. In 3 or 4 years time, maybe there’s another rule change, maybe this style doesn’t work. But if he was there now and these measure were in place then we wouldn’t be so inert to the evolution of the way the game is played.

But it's a pretty big risk for Joe too and therefore for Irish rugby, in the sense that Joe goes to Ireland and has it all to do (starting from scratch almost)...and to be loyal to all Provinces that will take time getting players from the other Provinces into his mindset and playing to his standards.

Added to that, as he sets about his work, still probably suffering in the results field as he beds down, Leinster has been given to a new coach - another up in the air project of "hope we're doing the right thing here"

I know and agree with your reading of Joe as a good candidate, Mick, the best currently operating in Ireland certainly.... but if Ireland could get their restart coach from the same kinda ranch in terms of how he likes the game to be played and not disrupt Leinster and Schmidt... well, that would be one question mark rather than two. I wouldn't mind Schmidt getting the job at all but I just worry that two areas might suffer to solve one problem.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

John Cregan wrote:Rory,

Your comments are way OTT on Kidney....."lasting damage"????

In 4 years he has one a Grand Slam and Ireland had their BEST EVER World Cup. Undoubedly, there have been some poor performances in there, but some top class ones also............

At the end of the day, Rugby is the 4th Sport in Ireland behind Soccer, Gaelic Football & Hurling and for a small country, what are our expectations??

Personally, i think a new coach might be the way to go to freshen things up, but i have no issue with Kidney continuing.........

There is no point even responding properly to this. If you are happy with rubbish performances, fair enough.

You seem to have a lot to say so maybe you should have tried.......putting up a silly caption of a man holding his head doesn't make your points any cleverer......im not happy with rubbish performances but in a 4 year period there will be some rubbish performances.

Can you point out a better RWC Ireland had under any other coach??

Kidney deserves a LOT of respect for what he has done.

John Cregan wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

John Cregan wrote:Rory,

Your comments are way OTT on Kidney....."lasting damage"????

In 4 years he has one a Grand Slam and Ireland had their BEST EVER World Cup. Undoubedly, there have been some poor performances in there, but some top class ones also............

At the end of the day, Rugby is the 4th Sport in Ireland behind Soccer, Gaelic Football & Hurling and for a small country, what are our expectations??

Personally, i think a new coach might be the way to go to freshen things up, but i have no issue with Kidney continuing.........

There is no point even responding properly to this. If you are happy with rubbish performances, fair enough.

You seem to have a lot to say so maybe you should have tried..............im not happy with rubbish performances but in a 4 year period there will be some rubbish performances.

Can you point out a better RWC Ireland had under any other coach??

Kidney deserves a LOT of respect for what he has done.

He also deserves a lot of critisism for what he is doing

That's ok too Leinster, of course criticism is merited, do you think he deserves the sack though?? I was more standing up for his achievements whuich were seemingly being airbrushed away................

SecretFly wrote:

Mickado wrote:
That’s the thing Fly, I suggest Joe as coach now because right now his methods are working. In 3 or 4 years time, maybe there’s another rule change, maybe this style doesn’t work. But if he was there now and these measure were in place then we wouldn’t be so inert to the evolution of the way the game is played.

But it's a pretty big risk for Joe too and therefore for Irish rugby, in the sense that Joe goes to Ireland and has it all to do (starting from scratch almost)...and to be loyal to all Provinces that will take time getting players from the other Provinces into his mindset and playing to his standards.

Added to that, as he sets about his work, still probably suffering in the results field as he beds down, Leinster has been given to a new coach - another up in the air project of "hope we're doing the right thing here"

I know and agree with your reading of Joe as a good candidate, Mick, the best currently operating in Ireland certainly.... but if Ireland could get their restart coach from the same kinda ranch in terms of how he likes the game to be played and not disrupt Leinster and Schmidt... well, that would be one question mark rather than two. I wouldn't mind Schmidt getting the job at all but I just worry that two areas might suffer to solve one problem.

A fair point. Maybe Vern Cotter would be interested in some international coaching...?

Kidney deserves credit for getting Ireland accross the finishing line in 2007 to win the Slam. Thats about it really.

I did not see the All Black tests as i was in Poland for the Euros (dont get me started) but it sound like a typical Deccie tour. Dreadful start, One good backs to the wall performance, expectations rise then we are mangled in the final test. Brining Wallace in from his holiers as opposed to trying a midfield of Drico Earls, Drico Cave, Mc Fadden Drico etc etc is the final straw for me. It defies any kind of logic. He has been a great coach for Munster but he is out of his depth and has lost the plot

He needs firing if we are to make any progress. I will not be changing my mind. We are an absolute rabble. I will be voting with my feet for the autumn internationals. Just couldnt be bothered anymore

To all his supporters on here, how low do we have to become before he gets the boot?????? a wooden spoon? a defeat to Italy??

John Cregan wrote:That's ok too Leinster, of course criticism is merited, do you think he deserves the sack though?? I was more standing up for his achievements whuich were seemingly being airbrushed away................

If we can find the right man for the job, then yes i think kidney should go

Rory_Gallagher wrote:How would Leinster have a bigger pool to draw from than Ireland?? With Leinster the only player it is different with is Nacewa, and we have a fantastic option on the wing in Bowe anyway. The difference between Ireland and Leinster, apart from the players/coaching, is that Leinster play to their strengths. It is that simple.

Only Nacewa? Not familiar with leinster that well but thorn was there wasnt he. And how many others who learnt their trade outside ireland? How many not eligible for ireland. Would leinster have won without its foreign players? honestly?

Nacewa and thorn alone would have probably helped irelwnd on this tour. Apples and pears

Dave,
A bit harsh on Kidney, although the Wallace selection was Bizzare. Wallace was NEVER going to cut it against the All Blacks.

Probably deserves another shot at a 6 Nations. The last campaign was unlucky in that the defeat to Wales was harsh (despite not playing well) and ultimately down to referee error............the defeat knocked the stuffing out of the campaign..............

He's probably on borrowed time alright.

Do you want to start a thread on Trap??!!

[quote="Mickado"]Things I’d like to see happen in Irish rugby:

1. Schmidt to be appointed national coach.
2. Schmidt to meet with provincial coaches and develop a national game plan.
Its up to Schmidt & his coaches to develop the national gameplan. The provincial coaches have their own job to do.

3. An end to central contracts. Don't see what the big deal is about here. Its also a reward to provinces for developing international players and enabling the province to hold onto them. See Luke situation at the moment.
4. The committee for rubber stamping foreign signings to include a member of national coaching staff. It has. Paul McNaughton was on it up to his retirement as Ireland Team Manager.
5. A gradual reduction in the number of NIQ players in each provincial squad to 3. Think it should be position specific myself. i.e., no more foreign THs for Munster & Ulster.

6. Get rid of provincial A sides. Why? Interpros / B+I Cup can be very competitive. I think a lot of the Munster players have benefited from the B+I Cup.

7. All provincial players on the fringe of selection/returning from injury to be allowed to play in the AIL. They are allowed - just not more than 2 in a side. Its the clubs that wanted this rule as I think they were fed up of Cork Con & Belvedere fielding Munster/Leinster academy and winning everything. Belvedere has dropped like a stone in the AIL since that ruling has come in. As well as that Ulster have no club in the Top Division in the AIL. Incidentally, the Mike Ruddock coached Lansdowne came in 5th in the AIL this year.

nope : ) im pretending the 270 minutes of football didnt happen and were just some odd dream.

the not playing well lark is something that Ireland do 80% of the time.

I will give him a one game amnesty if he hires and attack/backs coach. There good will ends

Taylorman wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:How would Leinster have a bigger pool to draw from than Ireland?? With Leinster the only player it is different with is Nacewa, and we have a fantastic option on the wing in Bowe anyway. The difference between Ireland and Leinster, apart from the players/coaching, is that Leinster play to their strengths. It is that simple.

Only Nacewa? Not familiar with leinster that well but thorn was there wasnt he. And how many others who learnt their trade outside ireland? How many not eligible for ireland. Would leinster have won without its foreign players? honestly?

Nacewa and thorn alone would have probably helped irelwnd on this tour. Apples and pears

The Leinster side that won the HC had 4 players who are not eligible for Ireland, Nacewa, Thorn, Strauss and Heinke Van Der Merwe. Strauss is marginally preferred to Sean Cronin and he'll be IQ this year, VDM is our backup Loosehead and started a few games in pool. Nacewa and Thorn are our only two nailed on starters, both very good. Would we have won without players of that quality, no. But to level the playing field if you took every foreginer out of the other teams in Europe, then we would have won, arguably we'd have won more convincingly. The only non-Leinster player to win a MOTM award this year (in a game involving Leinster) was Georgian flanker Gorgodze playing for Montpellier.

Are you honestly saying you don’t think we would benefit from a national coaching strategy (ala NZ)?

Also, Paul McNaughton is NOT part of the coaching team…

Mickado wrote:Are you honestly saying you don’t think we would benefit from a national coaching strategy (ala NZ)?

Also, Paul McNaughton is NOT part of the coaching team…

I didn't say that. I said it was up to the National Manager/IRFU to draw up the strategy, not the provincial coaches who have other priorities.

Paul McNaughton was on that committee in his capacity as Ireland Team Manager. More than likely the new Team Manager (Kearney) is also on this committee.

Edit: From what I've read about the set-up in NZ, the coaches meet and have a look at the outstanding features of a particular team and try to adopt them across the board. i.e., Chiefs defence is superb this year, the others will probably be looking at how they are executing it.

Taylorman wrote: Not familiar with leinster that well but thorn was there wasnt he. And how many others who learnt their trade outside ireland? How many not eligible for ireland. Would leinster have won without its foreign players? honestly?

Nacewa and thorn alone would have probably helped irelwnd on this tour. Apples and pears

That question comes up quite a bit and I'll give you the Get Out of Jail Unfamiliarity Card on that one. The answer is Yes - Leinster had every chance of winning without its foreign players. Honestly too

SH have a few misconceptions about NH, just as I'm perfectly sure we have a bundle of misconceptions about the SH. But a primary misconception is that the small nations, if they're competing at all at any level, club or country, then they must have some foreign influence there. Whereas the same attitude doesn't apply to the big lads like England and France. And yet, how many South Africans and foreigners have played for England International? And more to the point, how many foreigners play for the big English and French clubs?

I'll tell you how many - many more than can get into any Irish side. When Leinster played Clermont this year (their strongest challenger according to many previews and reviews) they played a team with something like ten non-French players (Leinster had far fewer due to IRFU controls on foreign imports) In short, Leinster was much more Irish than Clermont was French. The same is true when you look up some English clubs. Leicester for example - many more foreigns than an Irish side.

So, if the playing field was leveled and Leinster couldn't call on their foreigners (but also, the French and English sides couldn't call on theirs)...hmm, I think Leinster would have easier routes through the HC than harder ones...to be quite, quite honest

Sin é wrote:
I didn't say that. I said it was up to the National Manager/IRFU to draw up the strategy, not the provincial coaches who have other priorities.

Yes, their priority is to be as successful as possible in Pro12 and most expecially in HC is they're involved. And their priority is not to rest players when they don't feel it's necessary and don't want to. And another one is to play players in the positions they want to play them in and not the positions the International coach is requesting them to be played in.

But as we all know, those priorities suffer because the first priority is to make the boss happy and the provinces aren't the bosses.

Mickado wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:How would Leinster have a bigger pool to draw from than Ireland?? With Leinster the only player it is different with is Nacewa, and we have a fantastic option on the wing in Bowe anyway. The difference between Ireland and Leinster, apart from the players/coaching, is that Leinster play to their strengths. It is that simple.

Only Nacewa? Not familiar with leinster that well but thorn was there wasnt he. And how many others who learnt their trade outside ireland? How many not eligible for ireland. Would leinster have won without its foreign players? honestly?

Nacewa and thorn alone would have probably helped irelwnd on this tour. Apples and pears

The Leinster side that won the HC had 4 players who are not eligible for Ireland, Nacewa, Thorn, Strauss and Heinke Van Der Merwe. Strauss is marginally preferred to Sean Cronin and he'll be IQ this year, VDM is our backup Loosehead and started a few games in pool. Nacewa and Thorn are our only two nailed on starters, both very good. Would we have won without players of that quality, no. But to level the playing field if you took every foreginer out of the other teams in Europe, then we would have won, arguably we'd have won more convincingly. The only non-Leinster player to win a MOTM award this year (in a game involving Leinster) was Georgian flanker Gorgodze playing for Montpellier.

The difference is that France is picking from 14 teams, not 4. If 50% of the starters in Europe are non French qualified, that would equal a player pool of 105 starters to pick from.

In Ireland 4 teams x 15 starters = 60 to pick from.

As a matter of interest, who got the MOTM awards for Leinster during the season. Obviously Kearney. Sexton? O'Brien?

I don't recall them all but I think Kearney got the one for the QF and SF, Healy in the final.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I didn't say that. I said it was up to the National Manager/IRFU to draw up the strategy, not the provincial coaches who have other priorities.

Yes, their priority is to be as successful as possible in Pro12 and most expecially in HC is they're involved. And their priority is not to rest players when they don't feel it's necessary and don't want to. And another one is to play players in the positions they want to play them in and not the positions the International coach is requesting them to be played in.

But as we all know, those priorities suffer because the first priority is to make the boss happy and the provinces aren't the bosses.

Well Kidney must have made EOS very happy when he was coaching Munster. 14 of the 15 starters for the 2006 HCup final were Ireland qualified. Trevor Halstead was the only player that wasn't IQ.

Where now for Leinster? Oh I thought it was Ireland. Sorry for all the other off topic posts.

Sin é wrote:
Well Kidney must have made EOS very happy when he was coaching Munster. 14 of the 15 starters for the 2006 HCup final were Ireland qualified. Trevor Halstead was the only player that wasn't IQ.

Thanks for that update. Now here's one for you, as every good turn deserves another Today is Monday, 25th June...2012. Post New Zealand Tour Blues thread. That date might shock you Sin...but I'm afraid it's accurate.

That final test was extremely poor and showed a team that had given up. There was no real fight left in them. WHY? Was it too many players over the hill.? Too many injuries? Stale coaching? Whatever it was it was not pretty.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Well Kidney must have made EOS very happy when he was coaching Munster. 14 of the 15 starters for the 2006 HCup final were Ireland qualified. Trevor Halstead was the only player that wasn't IQ.

Thanks for that update. Now here's one for you, as every good turn deserves another Today is Monday, 25th June...2012. Post New Zealand Tour Blues thread. That date might shock you Sin...but I'm afraid it's accurate.

Well the fact that Ireland have moved up to No. 7 in the world rankings will really urine you off then

1(1) NZLNEW ZEALAND 91.43
2(2) AUSAUSTRALIA 87.05
3(3) RSASOUTH AFRICA 84.87
4(5) ENGENGLAND 83.09
5(7) FRAFRANCE 83.03
6(4) WALWALES 82.26
7(8) IREIRELAND 79.85
8(6) ARGARGENTINA 79.25
9(10) SCOSCOTLAND 77.97
10(9) SAMSAMOA 76.23

I used to really enjoy this board and enjoyed interacting with other Irish fans in having debates about our provinces and the Irish team. This thread is just once too often for me where it has been hijacked and ruined by certain posters. That's enough for me. I'm out. All the best lads. I really enjoyed chatting to some of you here, and meeting a couple of ye down in Ravenhill.

get a grip dude, just go on another thread, or leave and just dont tell anyone

Taylorman wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:How would Leinster have a bigger pool to draw from than Ireland?? With Leinster the only player it is different with is Nacewa, and we have a fantastic option on the wing in Bowe anyway. The difference between Ireland and Leinster, apart from the players/coaching, is that Leinster play to their strengths. It is that simple.

Only Nacewa? Not familiar with leinster that well but thorn was there wasnt he. And how many others who learnt their trade outside ireland? How many not eligible for ireland. Would leinster have won without its foreign players? honestly?

Nacewa and thorn alone would have probably helped irelwnd on this tour. Apples and pears

I can tell you aren't familiar. Of course they would have won it without them - honestly. Nacewa and Thorn are the only starters. Strauss will be IQ, but it is debatable if he is better than Cronin (who I think will overtake him soon). Thorn obviously is world class, but before him they were doing fine with Toner (who had a very good season) and Cullen, who partnered Thorn anyway. Thorn was there for 3 months. Nacewa is one of their very best players for sure, but Leinster have some fantastic options in the back three. In fact, a few of them will be challenging for Ireland very soon (Fitz, Kearney Jr).

So do you really think the players who won the competition for them was Nacewa and Thorn? Not a chance. On tour with O'Connell fit we would have had two world class second rows. Or at least one, with another guy who is getting there IMO. For Nacewa, Ireland have Bowe, who is an established world class winger, but again he was injured. So no, I don't think Nacewa and Thorn would have helped anymore than O'Connell and Bowe would have.