Where now for Ireland?

First topic message reminder :

Is the question posed by the year we've had. I'm trying to take a long view of our entire season rather than focusing on the tragicomedy of that last disgraceful game. 2011-2012 has been an unusually long and exceptionally disappointing season of test rugby for Ireland. It started with a lot of pessimism around the Ireland team (losing all 4 RWC warm-up tests consecutively) and ended in a similarly distressing fashion (Ireland's worst ever result and performance in the Southern Hemisphere). The statistics tell a similar story; in the seventeen matches we've played we have won just six, having drawn one and suffered ten defeats.

Wins over Australia, Italy (x2), Scotland, the USA and Russia are all we have to show for this year. For many the win we had over Australia was a triumphant validation of Kidney, who had come under heavy criticism following a string of incoherent and error-strewn performances in the lead up to that game. But it's worth noting it was Irelands only win against a side in the Top 8 of the world rankings in the last 12 months.

On the other hand we've had defeats to Scotland, England (x2), Wales (x2), France (x2) and New Zealand (x3). And one draw against France. It's distressing reading for any Irish fan. Putting the All Blacks series aside, since around 2005 we have always aimed to compete at the top end of the Six Nations table. But now the stats show that not only are we losing out to France, England and Wales- they've been fairly consistent and well practiced at beating us as well. We look comfortably a bottom three side in the NH rather than a top 3 team based on these results.

So my question is; how do we get back to the standard that is now demanded and expected of Ireland on the international stage i.e. being one of the top European sides? Can we even do that? Are we in for feast and famine over the next five years? What new ideas need to come into the set-up- could a clear out of senior players such as the one that led to Hayes, Horgan, Stringer, BOD and ROG getting capped in 2000 benefit us come the autumn? Do we need to make a break with the current coaching regime? Or is it just a case of fine tuning- a few new faces working under Kidney in the coaching set-up, a few new players coming in... gradual evolution of the sort Kidney has been trying so hard to make work.

What do you think 606v2? I am at a loss.

Sin é wrote:Fly, did Graham Henry go into a tv studio and explain to the NZ public why NZ were knocked out of the world cup in '07 and what he planned to do to rectify the situation?

I think if he'd have lost a game by 60 points he would have had to leave the country, never mind explain himself.

Henry had to reapply for his job didn't he?

Regardless he was still clearly the best man for the job, which is something only a lunatic would say about Kidney.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:Fly, did Graham Henry go into a tv studio and explain to the NZ public why NZ were knocked out of the world cup in '07 and what he planned to do to rectify the situation?

I think if he'd have lost a game by 60 points he would have had to leave the country, never mind explain himself.

Henry had to reapply for his job didn't he?
Regardless he was still clearly the best man for the job, which is something only a lunatic would say about Kidney.

He did. He wasn't given a 4 year extension before the world cup as a sign of faith by the NZRU. They have more cop on than that.

Mickado wrote:Graham Henry lost how many games as NZ coach?

There is no sensible comparison between GH and DK so why bother making it?

Situations are comparable - both teams suffered a bad loss (and NZ being knocked out of the world cup by France is worse than losing to NZ on a summer tour).

GH's neck was on the line for that - I want to know did he go on tv in NZ to explain the loss and what he was going to do to rectify it.

How are the situations comparable in any way Sin??

This is just another loss out of many more!

Mickado wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:Fly, did Graham Henry go into a tv studio and explain to the NZ public why NZ were knocked out of the world cup in '07 and what he planned to do to rectify the situation?

I think if he'd have lost a game by 60 points he would have had to leave the country, never mind explain himself.

Henry had to reapply for his job didn't he?
Regardless he was still clearly the best man for the job, which is something only a lunatic would say about Kidney.

He did. He wasn't given a 4 year extension before the world cup as a sign of faith by the NZRU. They have more cop on than that.

I don't think Kidney was either.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Graham Henry lost how many games as NZ coach?

There is no sensible comparison between GH and DK so why bother making it?

Situations are comparable - both teams suffered a bad loss (and NZ being knocked out of the world cup by France is worse than losing to NZ on a summer tour).

GH's neck was on the line for that - I want to know did he go on tv in NZ to explain the loss and what he was going to do to rectify it.

That's the worst use of schoolyard logic i've ever seen on 606.

Sin é wrote:Fly, did Graham Henry go into a tv studio and explain to the NZ public why NZ were knocked out of the world cup in '07 and what he planned to do to rectify the situation?

Always a question, Siné...always a question. Never too many ideas about what's wrong or how to correct it but always a neat question for those who do. Maybe I'll get you to be the interviewer on the Decco RTE gig .

Anyway, here's your answer. I don't care what Graham Henry did or didn't do post NZ and '07. I do passionately care about Ireland. I own it - I, you, and all the other guys here and all the ones out there who don't do the forum chats, they all own it, have a vested interest in it and have a right to the "How" answer when a coach claims he "knows how to fix it" after a 60 - 0 defeat. Oh yeah? You know how to fix it? You're declaring you still have the answers? Well, tell your shareholders so that they can judge whether or not they still want you around.

If he doesn't want to be asked a question on that declaration then, please, don't declare it at such a time on such a date.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Graham Henry lost how many games as NZ coach?

There is no sensible comparison between GH and DK so why bother making it?

Situations are comparable - both teams suffered a bad loss (and NZ being knocked out of the world cup by France is worse than losing to NZ on a summer tour).

They are incomparable indeed.

NZ lost one game whereas Ireland have lost 60% of theirs.

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Graham Henry lost how many games as NZ coach?

There is no sensible comparison between GH and DK so why bother making it?

Situations are comparable - both teams suffered a bad loss (and NZ being knocked out of the world cup by France is worse than losing to NZ on a summer tour).

GH's neck was on the line for that - I want to know did he go on tv in NZ to explain the loss and what he was going to do to rectify it.

That's the worst use of schoolyard logic i've ever seen on 606.

This. Even by your standards Sin!

I think Sin has totally lost the plot, just like Kidney. No point trying to reason with him.

On another note, Did anyone see some of the reactions from certain players with each other at times? I remember at one stage Sexton throwing his hands up in the air at earls after a try. I know this is just a personal opinion, and most people will say its just standard, but i dont like seeing players react to each other this way. To me Sextons actions were as good as saying "Why do I have to work with these sub standard players around me"

I just wonder if this is telling of the mood and relationships within the camp? Is there more to deal with psychologically for Ireland than just the rugby? Are their issues getting in the way of cohesion and trust. Are they really playing for each other?

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Graham Henry lost how many games as NZ coach?

There is no sensible comparison between GH and DK so why bother making it?

Situations are comparable - both teams suffered a bad loss (and NZ being knocked out of the world cup by France is worse than losing to NZ on a summer tour).

They are incomparable indeed.

NZ lost one game whereas Ireland have lost 60% of theirs.

There's that number again. Maybe we'll lose 60 games in a row before old Dekkie is given the heave ho.

clivemcl wrote:On another note, Did anyone see some of the reactions from certain players with each other at times? I remember at one stage Sexton throwing his hands up in the air at earls after a try. I know this is just a personal opinion, and most people will say its just standard, but i dont like seeing players react to each other this way. To me Sextons actions were as good as saying "Why do I have to work with these sub standard players around me"

I just wonder if this is telling of the mood and relationships within the camp? Is there more to deal with psychologically for Ireland than just the rugby? Are their issues getting in the way of cohesion and trust. Are they really playing for each other?

WOHOO! Another tangent!

Between Graham Henry's TV career and Sexton's (probable) on feild prima donna antics I think Dekkie could slip out the back door while we're not looking lads!

Mickado wrote:

clivemcl wrote:On another note, Did anyone see some of the reactions from certain players with each other at times? I remember at one stage Sexton throwing his hands up in the air at earls after a try. I know this is just a personal opinion, and most people will say its just standard, but i dont like seeing players react to each other this way. To me Sextons actions were as good as saying "Why do I have to work with these sub standard players around me"

I just wonder if this is telling of the mood and relationships within the camp? Is there more to deal with psychologically for Ireland than just the rugby? Are their issues getting in the way of cohesion and trust. Are they really playing for each other?

WOHOO! Another tangent!

Between Graham Henry's TV career and Sexton's (probable) on feild prima donna antics I think Dekkie could slip out the back door while we're not looking lads!

Not at all! I would argue that a coach is responsible for team comradary and unity!

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:Fly, did Graham Henry go into a tv studio and explain to the NZ public why NZ were knocked out of the world cup in '07 and what he planned to do to rectify the situation?

Always a question, Siné...always a question. Never too many ideas about what's wrong or how to correct it but always a neat question for those who do. Maybe I'll get you to be the interviewer on the Decco RTE gig .

Anyway, here's your answer. I don't care what Graham Henry did or didn't do post NZ and '07. I do passionately care about Ireland. I own it - I, you, and all the other guys here and all the ones out there who don't do the forum chats, they all own it, have a vested interest in it and have a right to the "How" answer when a coach claims he "knows how to fix it" after a 60 - 0 defeat. Oh yeah? You know how to fix it? You're declaring you still have the answers? Well, tell your shareholders so that they can judge whether or not they still want you around.

If he doesn't want to be asked a question on that declaration then, please, don't declare it at such a time on such a date.

My way of getting you to think. Hopefully you will realise that it is a ludicrous idea to have the coach/manager of any team interrogated on tv for the benefit of the 'hurting public.' It would destroy the team trust. They will have their own review no doubt and I'm sure BOD will give a full account when he writes his book.

clivemcl wrote:On another note, Did anyone see some of the reactions from certain players with each other at times? I remember at one stage Sexton throwing his hands up in the air at earls after a try. I know this is just a personal opinion, and most people will say its just standard, but i dont like seeing players react to each other this way. To me Sextons actions were as good as saying "Why do I have to work with these sub standard players around me"

I just wonder if this is telling of the mood and relationships within the camp? Is there more to deal with psychologically for Ireland than just the rugby? Are their issues getting in the way of cohesion and trust. Are they really playing for each other?

If you're asking are Ireland suffering rampant ego issues in camp (some believing they are better than others) well yeah, I'd say it happens. The world isn't perfect and you need an ego in a career - any career. So yes... I'm sure it happens.

Only point I'd make though is that it probably does the rounds in the Scottish set-up, it probably raises its head in the Welsh set-up, and the Aussie one and, indeed, that home of large egos, the ABs themselves - now the competitiveness there must be huge.

But most sides seem to be able to ride that storm and either use it to keep team standards up or bypass it all in the interests of team. Why should it be a specific issue for Irish players, why should it impact on our performances so much? I think we overdo this Provincial rawness, or player competitivness even within the one side thing. Many areas of the world have their own equally passionate rivalries - is Ireland's main weakness the childishness of not being able to overstep that bunk once in while?

Pete330v2 wrote:Christ Sin you are a rare case. Every thread you enter you start a row, always have, always will it seems.

Does Sin start the row, or are there people pre-set to jump on anything he says. Not saying you Pete, but there is a lot of presumption about what Sin would say before he is even on a thread. Everyone can have their view.

SecretFly wrote:is Ireland's main weakness the childishness of not being able to overstep that bunk once in while?

IMO yes. If harnessed we could have an excellent internal rivalry. As it stands I believe our team is not one unit.

For example there has always been a great Limerick v Cork rivalry within Munster rugby that has spurred the team on to do better.

Why could we not get that for Ireland.

Ugh, the sensible discussion never lasts

Good blog here; http://whiffofcordite.com/2012/06/25/last-tango-in-hamilton/

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:Fly, did Graham Henry go into a tv studio and explain to the NZ public why NZ were knocked out of the world cup in '07 and what he planned to do to rectify the situation?

Always a question, Siné...always a question. Never too many ideas about what's wrong or how to correct it but always a neat question for those who do. Maybe I'll get you to be the interviewer on the Decco RTE gig .

Anyway, here's your answer. I don't care what Graham Henry did or didn't do post NZ and '07. I do passionately care about Ireland. I own it - I, you, and all the other guys here and all the ones out there who don't do the forum chats, they all own it, have a vested interest in it and have a right to the "How" answer when a coach claims he "knows how to fix it" after a 60 - 0 defeat. Oh yeah? You know how to fix it? You're declaring you still have the answers? Well, tell your shareholders so that they can judge whether or not they still want you around.

If he doesn't want to be asked a question on that declaration then, please, don't declare it at such a time on such a date.

My way of getting you to think. Hopefully you will realise that it is a ludicrous idea to have the coach/manager of any team interrogated on tv for the benefit of the 'hurting public.' It would destroy the team trust. They will have their own review no doubt and I'm sure BOD will give a full account when he writes his book.

I think enough for both of us, Sin é. Don't you worry about my brain wave activity

Trust is already far down on the list of priorities in that squad, trust me. You somehow think that the Irish players returning home won't be sore, sick and angry? They might have played the games, but they'll also have our human emotions about it. Team trust? I don't think they care, right now.

And as for the old Internal reviews............................... haven't we been there before? "We had a little chat and we've come to the conclusion that we don't really know what happened to us in the WC meltdown of '07. Maybe Graham can answer it but we sure as hell can't" - signed by Players, Spouses, waterboys and Coaches.

A review is it???? Yeah, do call me when it's finished, I'll be rivetted to the spot

red_stag wrote:

SecretFly wrote:is Ireland's main weakness the childishness of not being able to overstep that bunk once in while?

IMO yes. If harnessed we could have an excellent internal rivalry. As it stands I believe our team is not one unit.

For example there has always been a great Limerick v Cork rivalry within Munster rugby that has spurred the team on to do better.

Why could we not get that for Ireland.

Tell the players to grow up and be adults not children? Tell them too that if they forget the bull of Provinces (and the rugby playing world don't quite care nomatter how we try to big it all up and sensationalise it) they might actually be part of something very special indeed - winning games against top 3 sides more regularly.

I'm not so certain it's as big an issue as some might believe actually - but again, if it is - if it is disrupting patterns of play and unity of purpose in the gameplans, then again it's the job of head coach to rectify that one pronto and insist it won't be tolerated. We had our reviews about all that before, and our hotel meetings - it shouldn't be something even mentioned now if the coach and the IRFU were serious about ending it as a factor at International level. That it is being mentioned again menas some think the problem was brushed under the carpet and neglected as soon as the heat went out of the last episode.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:Fly, did Graham Henry go into a tv studio and explain to the NZ public why NZ were knocked out of the world cup in '07 and what he planned to do to rectify the situation?

Always a question, Siné...always a question. Never too many ideas about what's wrong or how to correct it but always a neat question for those who do. Maybe I'll get you to be the interviewer on the Decco RTE gig .

Anyway, here's your answer. I don't care what Graham Henry did or didn't do post NZ and '07. I do passionately care about Ireland. I own it - I, you, and all the other guys here and all the ones out there who don't do the forum chats, they all own it, have a vested interest in it and have a right to the "How" answer when a coach claims he "knows how to fix it" after a 60 - 0 defeat. Oh yeah? You know how to fix it? You're declaring you still have the answers? Well, tell your shareholders so that they can judge whether or not they still want you around.

If he doesn't want to be asked a question on that declaration then, please, don't declare it at such a time on such a date.

My way of getting you to think. Hopefully you will realise that it is a ludicrous idea to have the coach/manager of any team interrogated on tv for the benefit of the 'hurting public.' It would destroy the team trust. They will have their own review no doubt and I'm sure BOD will give a full account when he writes his book.

I think enough for both of us, Sin é. Don't you worry about my brain wave activity

Trust is already far down on the list of priorities in that squad, trust me. You somehow think that the Irish players returning home won't be sore, sick and angry? They might have played the games, but they'll also have our human emotions about it. Team trust? I don't think they care, right now.

And as for the old Internal reviews............................... haven't we been there before? "We had a little chat and we've come to the conclusion that we don't really know what happened to us in the WC meltdown of '07. Maybe Graham can answer it but we sure as hell can't" - signed by Players, Spouses, waterboys and Coaches.

A review is it???? Yeah, do call me when it's finished, I'll be rivetted to the spot

So Fly, now that you have thought about it, do you still think its a good idea to have the manager/coach reviewed/interrogated on tv/public forum to satisfy the grieving public? And if you still think its a good idea, do you think the players would be happy with that?

---

Sin é wrote:Some of you might be interested - I'm watching the Cork v Tipp semi hurling final. Conor Sweetnam is the No. 8 for Cork is also on the U20s Munster rugby. Think he also plays hockey for Munster as well. By the way, he has just done his Leaving Cert. Scored a great point for Cork already.

Interesting to see where he will end up.

Anyway, g'wan tipp.

here is a link to to those who can't access it on rte2.

http://tykestv.eu/channel2.php

It's Darren Sweetnam! Looks a bit light for rugby to be honest, he did alright yesterday. Cork weren't in it till the sending off. The propensity for GAA players to give away ridiculous frees and cards always astounds me.

Secret,

It is an issue but just one of many I agree with the conscensus that the coaching team needs to go.

I'm just wacthing Wales Australia match here from the weekend. Despite not managing wins either, Wales look a totally different league to us this past few weeks.

Has anyone been watching Spain attempting to win their third major tournament on the trot? I know a national coach has less time with the players than a club coach. But Spain have done the smart thing picked a lot of the players and copied exactly the playing style of multiple European Cup champions, Barcelona.

Thomond wrote:

---

Sin é wrote:Some of you might be interested - I'm watching the Cork v Tipp semi hurling final. Conor Sweetnam is the No. 8 for Cork is also on the U20s Munster rugby. Think he also plays hockey for Munster as well. By the way, he has just done his Leaving Cert. Scored a great point for Cork already.

Interesting to see where he will end up.

Anyway, g'wan tipp.

here is a link to to those who can't access it on rte2.

http://tykestv.eu/channel2.php

It's Darren Sweetnam! Looks a bit light for rugby to be honest, he did alright yesterday. Cork weren't in it till the sending off. The propensity for GAA players to give away ridiculous frees and cards always astounds me.

Opps Darren. I was watching the match, so was in a bit of a hurry posting. He must be only 18 - has a bit of time to develop.

Good game actually. Cork put it up to us. In another year or two, Cork will be putting one over us (and we have a good team).

Sin é wrote:So Fly, now that you have thought about it, do you still think its a good idea to have the manager/coach reviewed/interrogated on tv/public forum to satisfy the grieving public? And if you still think its a good idea, do you think the players would be happy with that?

Here's what I think Sin é...and I'll 'type' it slowly to emphasise it.

If a coach who has just seen his team beaten badly in one game and absolutely obliterated in another, if after a tour like that (and with the recent few years of history up there and apparent to all - WC build up games, WC game against Wales, 6N campaign, comfortably sitting at 8th in the World with no sign of a rising) if after being in charge of all that (and that's what an International coach is - in charge....................) if he can then readily hit back with an "I know how to fix it" comment, then he should have the good grace to know people will be waiting for him to elaborate. Understand that mechanism?

I don't care whether it's on TV, on Radio, to a newspaper or his mutterings to O'Driscoll that will appear in a bestselling book - I don't care what platform he uses, I do say if you say something like that after the few seasons we've had, then you better have the detail ready, because people will be very interested in why you think so.

"I know how to fix it" - I think we'd like some elaboration on that one, Declan, given that I'm afriad many of us don't believe you.

That's what I think, Sin é.

Clive - seriously?? Our lineouts and restarts were utter pants and our forwards a yard off the pace. It was amazing and v annoying that we got that close to Australia (annoying coz we were a bit crap and still could have won)

Rugbydreamer, i did a bit of background watching tbh, only looking up when the commentator sounded excited. But I saw Wales attacking with confidence, supporting each other well, showing confidence, and some offloading Ireland could only dream of....

Yeah I didn't think Wales had a good tour at all and they still did a LOT better than we did. They were not on top form.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:So Fly, now that you have thought about it, do you still think its a good idea to have the manager/coach reviewed/interrogated on tv/public forum to satisfy the grieving public? And if you still think its a good idea, do you think the players would be happy with that?

Here's what I think Sin é...and I'll 'type' it slowly to emphasise it.

If a coach who has just seen his team beaten badly in one game and absolutely obliterated in another, if after a tour like that (and with the recent few years of history up there and apparent to all - WC build up games, WC game against Wales, 6N campaign, comfortably sitting at 8th in the World with no sign of a rising) if after being in charge of all that (and that's what an International coach is - in charge....................) if he can then readily hit back with an "I know how to fix it" comment, then he should have the good grace to know people will be waiting for him to elaborate. Understand that mechanism?

I don't care whether it's on TV, on Radio, to a newspaper or his mutterings to O'Driscoll that will appear in a bestselling book - I don't care what platform he uses, I do say if you say something like that after the few seasons we've had, then you better have the detail ready, because people will be very interested in why you think so.

"I know how to fix it" - I think we'd like some elaboration on that one, Declan, given that I'm afriad many of us don't believe you.

That's what I think, Sin é.

Fly, admit it, it would be crazy to go on tv/radio/newspaper and announce to the world what needs to be fixed

i.e., what if his solution was to just play Leinster players (i.e., drop Best, POC, Ryan, Ferris etc).
How do you think Fergus McFadden /Ryan/Tuohy/Wallace would feel if he said "well I'm missing some key players through injury. Thats why we lost so badly in NZ. When POC, D'Arcy (or whoever becomes the next Ireland 12), or god forbid let Sexton know he is going to be moved to 12 and bring in Madigan.

That kind of stuff should not be aired in public.

I agree with SinÉ this stuff has no place in public.

He should be answering these to the IRFU

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Christ Sin you are a rare case. Every thread you enter you start a row, always have, always will it seems.

Does Sin start the row, or are there people pre-set to jump on anything he says. Not saying you Pete, but there is a lot of presumption about what Sin would say before he is even on a thread. Everyone can have their view.

Yes he usually does and the rows are more often than not diverted towards his own agenda as opposed to the general subject of the thread I'm afraid. I've nothing against Sin's views etc but each topic seems to be ambushed for his Munstercentric ideals.

He is right, I just dont like that nobody has talked about this in strong terms yet. I just dont think Kidney knows what 'strong term'. I think we struggle to belive how serious he is because of the way he talks. You know what I'm talking about.

He just doesnt come across like he means business. Its hard to trust his ability to rectify the mess based on the front we see through the media.

Sin-what would you like to see changed in the national team? Or do you think that nothing needs to be changed?

Sin é wrote:
Fly, admit it, it would be crazy to go on tv/radio/newspaper and announce to the world what needs to be fixed

i.e., what if his solution was to just play Leinster players (i.e., drop Best, POC, Ryan, Ferris etc).
How do you think Fergus McFadden /Ryan/Tuohy/Wallace would feel if he said "well I'm missing some key players through injury. Thats why we lost so badly in NZ. When POC, D'Arcy (or whoever becomes the next Ireland 12), or god forbid let Sexton know he is going to be moved to 12 and bring in Madigan.

That kind of stuff should not be aired in public.

You're thinking hard now, Sin é - but I'm not thinking you're thinking too straight The pressure of never admitting you're wrong (or better still, that in your heart of hearts you know you agree with me ) is a difficult one to keep going on the old logic front.

I think knowing how to fix things suggests he might be going to attempt to (yet again). Don't you? So - in the likelihood that he'll be attempting to fix the train wreck...the world will be looking on, as it's going to have to happen on the big screen - where International games of import go So first done deal is no need for the clichéd need for privacy.

Second - if he thinks the world don't already know what needs to be fixed..................................? Well, let's not go there. He's a nice man and an intelligent one - he knows the world knows what needs to be fixed. So second done deal in no need for privacy.

Thirdly... how will certain players feel if he tells them they can't be part of his fix? The same as they always do because he's told enough of them in his time and they get over it and so does he. But again, you make the continuing mistake that a fix is always players coming in or going away. I'm suggesting not so and therefore I'm suggesting an explanation of fixing does not require blunt public statements about individual players. Not needed in the slightest. The gameplan is the issue (or lack thereof) not the players chosen to play it this week or that.

How do I know it's the gameplan and not the players? Well that's the easiest bit. If it was the players that needed fixing, Declan would have achieved lift off quite some time ago as he's been our fixer and has always known how to fix it. If it's players, then why hasn't he? If it's players then why does he need to choose this point in time to 'fix it'? He's implicating himself no matter which way you look at it.

It's the overall structure he's alluding to when he says he knows how to fix it. He's only begun to acknowledge truths recently so he knows it's his and his coaches plans that are the thing that needs fixing. He's said on this tour two things and I'm only paraphrasing him. He's said "Maybe we're kicking the ball away" - truth. "Consistency is a problem" - truth. First time he's admitted either of those things though.
The thing that needs fixing is the battleplan and he knows it.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Sin-what would you like to see changed in the national team? Or do you think that nothing needs to be changed?

I think we need to get some better players for a start. As a measure, I'd say that the team out in NZ is a long way behind the team of 2007 ('07 6Ns when I think Ireland peaked). Some players might grow into being as good as that team were, but they are still a work in progress.

What kind of coaching staff do you think is best placed to develop the players we have into a winning team?

Sin é wrote:Fly, did Graham Henry go into a tv studio and explain to the NZ public why NZ were knocked out of the world cup in '07 and what he planned to do to rectify the situation?

No. But he did submit a detailed report to the NZRU explaining the failure* and outlining what he would do differently going forward. And the report was released publically.

I see no reason why Kidney shouldn't do the same.

*from memory the reasons were
- excessive resting of players in Super Rugby prior to the tournament impacted match fitness
- injuries to Carter and Evans during the quarter final
- a lack of tough matches in pool play (Scotland put their reserves out)
- Wayne Barnes**


** Actually I made up the last one

Kiwi, he mightn't have referred to Barnes directly but I think we all know who "That blind pommy basterd" was.

Kiwi...you're a devil!

Notch - I think the provinces now have some very good coaches available to nurture our younger generation. For example, Read citing Penney as a real influence earlier in his career, he seems to work very well with the younger players and know how to bring the best out of them. Anscombe has been in charge of the NZ U20s of course and led them to many victories, bringing through some really talented young guys. Plus we all know Schmidt has been doing a great job giving game time to the younger guys at Leinster.

Our '07 report was that knowbody really knew what went wrong and wouldn't be tellin' anyway.

Clinical.... given that all the negatives were quickly rectified in time for New Zealand 2012

I think the difference was with Henry he had an impressive record and the quarter final exit was seen as an aberration. The main alternative was Robbie Deans who was involved with another World Cup disappointment and the NZRFU went with the man who seemed best for the job.

Kidney has not brought the same level of consistency to Ireland. His contract was extended though. Are their serious contenders for the jobs though? Sometimes change for the sake of change is not the answer. But Kidney does appear to have run out of lives and so a justification to the IRFU does seem in order and if he is deemed unable to justify Ireland's recent record, then he should fall on his sword.

[quote="SecretFly"]

Sin é wrote:
Fly, admit it, it would be crazy to go on tv/radio/newspaper and announce to the world what needs to be fixed

i.e., what if his solution was to just play Leinster players (i.e., drop Best, POC, Ryan, Ferris etc).
How do you think Fergus McFadden /Ryan/Tuohy/Wallace would feel if he said "well I'm missing some key players through injury. Thats why we lost so badly in NZ. When POC, D'Arcy (or whoever becomes the next Ireland 12), or god forbid let Sexton know he is going to be moved to 12 and bring in Madigan.

That kind of stuff should not be aired in public.

You're thinking hard now, Sin é - but I'm not thinking you're thinking too straight The pressure of never admitting you're wrong (or better still, that in your heart of hearts you know you agree with me ) is a difficult one to keep going on the old logic front.

Fly, I don't have to think too hard to know you are wrong on this one. I wouldn't need to be Freud to figure out that you are talking about yourself when you talk about the difficulty of admitting that you are wrong.

I think knowing how to fix things suggests he might be going to attempt to (yet again). Don't you? So - in the likelihood that he'll be attempting to fix the train wreck...the world will be looking on, as it's going to have to happen on the big screen - where International games of import go So first done deal is no need for the clichéd need for privacy.

You use an awful lot of words to say nothing.

Second - if he thinks the world don't already know what needs to be fixed..................................? Well, let's not go there. He's a nice man and an intelligent one - he knows the world knows what needs to be fixed. So second done deal in no need for privacy.

If this thread is a reflexion of the world I'd be quite confident that the world hasn't a clue what needs to be fixed!

Thirdly... how will certain players feel if he tells them they can't be part of his fix? The same as they always do because he's told enough of them in his time and they get over it and so does he. But again, you make the continuing mistake that a fix is always players coming in or going away. I'm suggesting not so and therefore I'm suggesting an explanation of fixing does not require blunt public statements about individual players. Not needed in the slightest. The gameplan is the issue (or lack thereof) not the players chosen to play it this week or that.

He doesn't tell them in public. Team matters are not discussed in public which is what you want.

If the gameplan is the issue, then why do you need Kidney to go on TV to say that. You've made your mind up.

As for the gameplan - back in the Enfield meeting (xmas 2008), it was reported that the players were asked about the gameplan of the autumn internationals, so it would seem that the players are asked to buy into it and just not instructed to do what they are told.

How do I know it's the gameplan and not the players? Well that's the easiest bit. If it was the players that needed fixing, Declan would have achieved lift off quite some time ago as he's been our fixer and has always known how to fix it. If it's players, then why hasn't he? If it's players then why does he need to choose this point in time to 'fix it'? He's implicating himself no matter which way you look at it.

Lets see now - Leo Cullen needs an op. Leinster sign Brad Thorn to cover. Paul O'Connell is injured. Ireland get Dan Tuohy instead. Brad Thorn is a better player than Leo Cullen. Dan Tuohy is not a better player than Paul O'Connell. Similar situation for D'Arcy & Bowe. Wallace & McFadden are not as good.

It's the overall structure he's alluding to when he says he knows how to fix it. He's only begun to acknowledge truths recently so he knows it's his and his coaches plans that are the thing that needs fixing. He's said on this tour two things and I'm only paraphrasing him. He's said "Maybe we're kicking the ball away" - truth. "Consistency is a problem" - truth. First time he's admitted either of those things though.
The thing that needs fixing is the battleplan and he knows it.

He actually said after the first test that the ball was being given away far too cheaply which would suggest that kicking it away was not part of the game plan. Just the players were not able to execute it.

I don't expect things to immediately improve when we get a new coach. I hope people do not expect that. However, I believe that if we can get the right person, given time, they will be able to create a team, capable of competing at the highest level, with a consistent, structured game plan that suits the players. I hope they can create a team where everyone will be on the same wavelength, and where there will be both an organised defence and an organised attack. Then we can really see what players form the best team, and which players will be left behind.

Right now we have 15 individuals running around not really sure what they are doing. It is easy to pinpoint individuals in these situations, and say who did what wrong. If you take a good functioning team, even the unspectacular, hard working player who doesn't win the MOTM awards has a real part to play and overall the entire team does well. If there is a chink in the armour, and something isn't working, you can fix it. You need to have a team first though.

The coach creates the team, and Kidney has had 4 years to do so. He has failed.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I think the difference was with Henry he had an impressive record and the quarter final exit was seen as an aberration. The main alternative was Robbie Deans who was involved with another World Cup disappointment and the NZRFU went with the man who seemed best for the job.

Kidney has not brought the same level of consistency to Ireland. His contract was extended though. Are their serious contenders for the jobs though? Sometimes change for the sake of change is not the answer. But Kidney does appear to have run out of lives and so a justification to the IRFU does seem in order and if he is deemed unable to justify Ireland's recent record, then he should fall on his sword.

He was heavily criticised for leaving Doug Howlett in the stands and not having any real backup for Dan Carter as far as I can recall. Henry with Wales & the Lions didn't have a great record. Who he is coaching might have a lot to do with his success.

Can't see too many wanting the Ireland job. Last time around there were 12 applicants for the munster job and 2 for the Ireland one. Jake White & Meyer are among those who turned it down (and thats when most this Irish team were still in their prime).

SecretFly wrote:Our '07 report was that knowbody really knew what went wrong and wouldn't be tellin' anyway.

Clinical.... given that all the negatives were quickly rectified in time for New Zealand 2012

They were undercooked. Eddie wrapped them in cotton wool (and hence this time Ireland had a load of tough warm-up matches). Also said the facilities/living conditions were horrible in France and why they based themselves in Queenstown at this world cup.

Main thing was that they were undercooked and then they panicked.

Sin é wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I think the difference was with Henry he had an impressive record and the quarter final exit was seen as an aberration. The main alternative was Robbie Deans who was involved with another World Cup disappointment and the NZRFU went with the man who seemed best for the job.

Kidney has not brought the same level of consistency to Ireland. His contract was extended though. Are their serious contenders for the jobs though? Sometimes change for the sake of change is not the answer. But Kidney does appear to have run out of lives and so a justification to the IRFU does seem in order and if he is deemed unable to justify Ireland's recent record, then he should fall on his sword.

He was heavily criticised for leaving Doug Howlett in the stands and not having any real backup for Dan Carter as far as I can recall. Henry with Wales & the Lions didn't have a great record. Who he is coaching might have a lot to do with his success.

Can't see too many wanting the Ireland job. Last time around there were 12 applicants for the munster job and 2 for the Ireland one. Jake White & Meyer are among those who turned it down (and thats when most this Irish team were still in their prime).

False. Meyer expressed an interest but the IRFU never approached him for the job. They wanted Jake White but he wasn't interested as he wanted the England job.

[quote="Sin é"]

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Fly, admit it, it would be crazy to go on tv/radio/newspaper and announce to the world what needs to be fixed

i.e., what if his solution was to just play Leinster players (i.e., drop Best, POC, Ryan, Ferris etc).
How do you think Fergus McFadden /Ryan/Tuohy/Wallace would feel if he said "well I'm missing some key players through injury. Thats why we lost so badly in NZ. When POC, D'Arcy (or whoever becomes the next Ireland 12), or god forbid let Sexton know he is going to be moved to 12 and bring in Madigan.

That kind of stuff should not be aired in public.

You're thinking hard now, Sin é - but I'm not thinking you're thinking too straight The pressure of never admitting you're wrong (or better still, that in your heart of hearts you know you agree with me ) is a difficult one to keep going on the old logic front.

Fly, I don't have to think too hard to know you are wrong on this one. I wouldn't need to be Freud to figure out that you are talking about yourself when you talk about the difficulty of admitting that you are wrong.

I think knowing how to fix things suggests he might be going to attempt to (yet again). Don't you? So - in the likelihood that he'll be attempting to fix the train wreck...the world will be looking on, as it's going to have to happen on the big screen - where International games of import go So first done deal is no need for the clichéd need for privacy.

You use an awful lot of words to say nothing.

Second - if he thinks the world don't already know what needs to be fixed..................................? Well, let's not go there. He's a nice man and an intelligent one - he knows the world knows what needs to be fixed. So second done deal in no need for privacy.

If this thread is a reflexion of the world I'd be quite confident that the world hasn't a clue what needs to be fixed!

Thirdly... how will certain players feel if he tells them they can't be part of his fix? The same as they always do because he's told enough of them in his time and they get over it and so does he. But again, you make the continuing mistake that a fix is always players coming in or going away. I'm suggesting not so and therefore I'm suggesting an explanation of fixing does not require blunt public statements about individual players. Not needed in the slightest. The gameplan is the issue (or lack thereof) not the players chosen to play it this week or that.

He doesn't tell them in public. Team matters are not discussed in public which is what you want.

If the gameplan is the issue, then why do you need Kidney to go on TV to say that. You've made your mind up.

As for the gameplan - back in the Enfield meeting (xmas 2008), it was reported that the players were asked about the gameplan of the autumn internationals, so it would seem that the players are asked to buy into it and just not instructed to do what they are told.

How do I know it's the gameplan and not the players? Well that's the easiest bit. If it was the players that needed fixing, Declan would have achieved lift off quite some time ago as he's been our fixer and has always known how to fix it. If it's players, then why hasn't he? If it's players then why does he need to choose this point in time to 'fix it'? He's implicating himself no matter which way you look at it.

Lets see now - Leo Cullen needs an op. Leinster sign Brad Thorn to cover. Paul O'Connell is injured. Ireland get Dan Tuohy instead. Brad Thorn is a better player than Leo Cullen. Dan Tuohy is not a better player than Paul O'Connell. Similar situation for D'Arcy & Bowe. Wallace & McFadden are not as good.

It's the overall structure he's alluding to when he says he knows how to fix it. He's only begun to acknowledge truths recently so he knows it's his and his coaches plans that are the thing that needs fixing. He's said on this tour two things and I'm only paraphrasing him. He's said "Maybe we're kicking the ball away" - truth. "Consistency is a problem" - truth. First time he's admitted either of those things though.
The thing that needs fixing is the battleplan and he knows it.

He actually said after the first test that the ball was being given away far too cheaply which would suggest that kicking it away was not part of the game plan. Just the players were not able to execute it.

What's that Sin? You're what? - Oh right, you're never wrong. Thought I was going to hear something different. Carry on, I'll keep reading the abridged versions of what you say. Can we fix it, Yes we can!