My Irish Squad for the Autumn

First topic message reminder :

This is obviously hypothetical as it is well in advance and there is some rugby to be played and of course players will go in and out of form and of course some may get injured.

I'd like something of a revamp compared to what has been going on in the Irish team for the past 12 months or so. I am picking this squad to play fast, off the deck rugby and I would want the team to be coached as such and the tactics to reflect this. For that reason there could be some big name absentees.

Am leaving out some of the injured lot who may not make it back in time.

Please bare in mind this is the training squad and thus some are in who won't play albeit to make up numbers or for experience
LH's: Healy-Court-McAllister
TH's: Ross-Fitzpatrick-Hagan
Hk's: Best-Strauss-Cronin
Locks: POC-Ryan-Tuohy-Toner-DOC
Backrow: Ferris-Ryan-POM-Henry-Wilson-Heaslip
Scrumhalves: Reddan-Murray-Marshall
Flyhalves: Sexton-Madigan-Jackson
Centres: Downey-BOD-Cave-McFadden
Back 3: Bowe-Earls-Gilroy-Zebo-Kearney-Trimble

20 forwards and 16 backs

Not considered due to injury: SOB, Kearney Jr, Fitzgerald, Ruddock, Jones

Reasonings:

1) McAllister I think could be a great shout and has looked promising when he gets gametime, better than Wilkinson anyways. Hopefully McGrath can start making an impression at Leinster.
2) Strauss in as he is just a league above Sherry
3) Hagan I think has more talent than Loughney I think and would like to see Macklin more often.
4) DOC is in there really to make up the numbers to be honest, not sure if Nagle is ready may benefit from playing while others are away anyways. Toner deservedly in the squad ahead of McCarthy.
5) Ryan in instead of Jennings. Jennings hasn't performed at International level so going with youth. Wilson I believe could get in there but will be behind Heaslip.
6) I'd have the 9's in that order and if there was a 4th spot would take Stringer.
7) Not taking ROG due to the desire to play attacking rugby which I don't feel he can do right from the off. I think Madigan is much better at that and could be an excellent player for Ireland in the future. Excellent impact sub too. Jackson in as well as one for the future.
8 ) Downey in to try and fill the void in terms of size in the backs and bring physicality at 12. McFadden hopefully will have overtaken Darcy at 12 and all will be well with the world. Earls could be understudy to BOD but I don't think he is a 13 (he is a born winger) it could well be Cave but he needs to up it as do others like EOM, Spence etc.
9) I decided to include both Zebo and Gilroy and would ahve included Kearney Jr too if he wasn't injured ahead of Trimble.

My 22:

Healy-Best-Ross
Ryan-POC
Ferris-Heaslip-POM
Reddan-Sexton
Downey-BOD
Earls-Kearney-Bowe

Strauss-Fitzpatrick-Tuohy/Toner-Henry-Marshall-Madigan-Gilroy

I think that is a good attacking team who are mobile and yet abrasive. Downey and Bowe give the backs a target man. The locks in particular are really well balanced and the backrow looks tasty too.

The aim would be to play off quick ball and try and keep the tempo high, attacking before the defence has time to fully re-set. Use dummy runners and bring in the likes of Earls and Bowe into the line to create mismatches. Ferris, healy and POM would be the primary carriers in the pack and the entire backrow are more than capable lineout options. Scrummaging-wise I'd expect even more of an improvement due to POC in there but not sure I'd want him touching the ball much in terms of keeping the tempo up.

The bench would be used to increase the temp again with possibly Madigan or Sexton going in at 12 and Strauss injecting some pace as well. Tuohy/Toner would come on for POC in the last 15 all things going to plan.

What do people think?
Would you include/leave out someone?
Is that a good split?
Are there any other young guys who could be in there?
Can McFadden get ahead of Darcy?
Is Fitzpatrick worth a bench spot ahead of Court?
Would others bring ROG?
Is Ryan (the flanker) too green?
Is Nagle worth a shot?
Is there anywhere where we are weak?
Is Downey going to get a chance?

PLEASE DON'T LET THIS TURN INTO A NIQ DEBATE RE: STRAUSS.

Part of Earls' fault is he has shown he can be good at every position (Fitz floundered a bit at full back). While I know some were pished he said he wanted to play 13, I like the fact he had to cojones to come out and say he wanted to play one position.

Rava wrote:Cave is only 25
Cave is not holding anyone back!
Cave will probably look to retire in about 8 or 9 years

The one thing I feel about Cave is... he had some tough competition to get the Ulster 13 jersey back, and he wasn't gifted it back. He got it by playing better than Spence. If Spence ups his game and performs well in pre-season and in the early part of the Pro12 season, he will be the one wearing the Ulster 13 jersey next season.

But we talk about picking on form. Well, Cave got on that tour on form. 10 bad minutes in a test we were losing heavily and he's suddenly holding players back. If the players he's 'holding back' were as good as him- or at least as in form as him- he'd have been at home and they would be on tour. Maybe next year they'll overtake him again. Thats called picking on form. Do we want that to stop at the provinces?

I'm really baffled at the criticism of Ulster for picking Wallace and Cave. The reason they got picked is because they were our best 12 and our best 13. I imagine they'll have some good competition this season to hold onto those jerseys at Ulster, in fact I think there's a good chance they won't. But beware and remember that the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

What it illustrates how our lack of a top-down gameplan affects the national side. Ulster have a gameplan which has revolved around creative playmaking centres so they pick the best players to suit that gameplan. Ireland have a gameplan that would work better if they had at least one powerful bosher in the centre, maybe even two. They don't have the players available because thats not the way the provinces play at all. The only good crash ball centre in Ireland last season was Lifiemi Mafi.

I think what we need is an ethos of how we play rugby in this country. Now I'm fine with the approach if we have the very best coaches at the pinnacle of the organisation. I would have no problem with someone of genuine stature in the game laying down a blueprint for all the provinces to follow. If it comes down to Declan Kidney laying down that blueprint... I'm not fine with it. I'm not fine with it at all.

What do you think the reaction from the fans and the IRFU would have been if Earls said 2 years ago.

"I cannot develop as a player in Ireland. I am being moved from pillar to post and for the good of my career I will have to leave Ireland if this continues"

That isn't actually true Notch - Cave really was just gifted the 13 shirt back at the beginning of the season. He came back and he was given the 13 shirt while Spence was asked to play at 12, where he isn't half as good. Cave plays well, Spence doesn't. Shocker, the guy who actually got to play in the position he is best at ended up playing better.

Thomond wrote:Building for the future is important but it doesn't take 3 years to build a World Cup side. The crux of the Oz side got the majority of their experience from late 2009 onwards.

How did they do in the RWC?

3 years isn't long enough, it takes 2 cycles to peak for a RWC. All the teams who've won it have had the backbone of the side in their 2nd or sometimes 3rd RWC.

We are 2-3s season too late for 2015, 2019 needs to be the focus now.

Wales, England and Australia have been building for 2015 since 2011. They are the frontrunners.

Our age profile is a mess........a 1/4 of the side won't be there in 2015 and their replacements will have < 30 caps and very little big match experience. England, Scotland and Wales will have a core of their side in their mid 20's who've played in a RWC and Lions tour.

They got to a semi final and came third something Ireland have never done. Rodders, I can see your logic alright, the German football side took 7 years of great work being down to completely dismantle and rebuild their youth system. I don't think ours is that broken though. I don't think we need to build that long or look that far ahead. Half the guys playing in that tournament are probably not even in academies at this stage!

red_stag wrote:

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:After the Irish job I don't see him getting anything near as good a coaching role again

I can see him going back teaching and chasing that public sector pension!!

This the same guy who turned down a job upstairs in the IRFU after he was made redundant by EOS we're talking about. He didn't go back to his public sector teaching job then, and I doubt if he'll do it now considering he hasn't been teaching since about 1997!

But that makes no sense.

He is much more likely to go back now. He coached Munster he coached Ireland. He won the Heineken Cup and Grandslam. He was made redundant about 10 years ago and clearly had so much to do.

He strikes me as a very family orientated man (as we saw with his time in charge of Dragons and Leinster). I don't see him heading off to be the next Zebre coach and as you say he turned down a job upstairs in the IRFU.

I think he could very easily go back teaching. The pension thing was tongue in cheek but I am sure it played a part. He could combine that with Munster / Ireland Schools as a lot of teachers do and he did himself once upon a time.

He is only in his early '50s (Ian McGeechan is 15 years older than him). I'd say it would be practicably impossible to head back to a school room for him now and to start teaching again having been out of the classroom for so long.

The reason why he went back to Cork from Leinster was because his mother was dying (and she did die about 6 months later). Wayne Smith didn't take the England job because he wanted to be near his aging parents in NZ. At this stage Kidney's kids have grown up and so he is much more mobile. With his present job he seems to be away a lot, so I doubt if its a factor anymore.

I think there are any number of clubs in the UK who would be more than happy to have Kidney as a coach with his record with Munster (which he built-up). Irish coaches seem to be very popular there.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Rava I am fully aware what age Cave is but thanks

For that reason, while Cave is currently better than Spence, I feel from an Irish perspective that it would be better for Spence to be starting 13 for Ulster.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well you could say he is holding back Spence.

I don't think Spence should be replacing Cave anyway soon, or at least until he has added some skill to his bish-bash game. And, Rory, in answer to your comment about Cave getting the 13 jersey back easily I don't agree. He is the better of the two and if Spence is to be considered in the centre then his "current" game is probably better suited to 12. Of the young centres available to both Ulster and Ireland, unfortunately I see Spence too far down the list.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:BTW Rodders - good to see you back.

Guys, I encouraged him ...........

That is all totally based on this season though Rava - again people have forgotten just how effective Spence was in the 2010/11 season. There was a reason he was selected for the 6 nations, he was a tremendous talent in both defence and attack. He has fantastic foot work, alongside his physicality and pace. This season he plays 12, and he picks up the habit of running straight for contact. Not really a coincidence, he plays a position he isn't as good at and is used to play that "bish-bash" game you describe.

Cave is better at certain things, while Spence is also better at certain things. I actually think that while Cave is better at putting people into space and in distribution, Spence is MUCH more dangerous with ball in hand. Cave just doesn't have his footwork, his pace or his strength. Spence really needs to unlearn this running straight for contact business, which he picked up from his games at 12, and improve his distribution, but he has been mismanaged this season in general.

Rava wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:BTW Rodders - good to see you back.

Guys, I encouraged him ...........

Never poke a sleeping dog Rava......

..besides I aways planned to return and share my 2019 RWC masterplan with you guys....

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think the generation of players that Rodders refers to have indeed been wasted. Certain players do end up excelling when thrown in the deep end simply because they adapt and play to their strengths. Players that show initial promise have been selected by other teams despite their weaknesses, because they trust they will make an impact. Hence why North, Cuthbert, O'Connor etc have all had their chances from an early age. We seem to think they need the most experience they can get first, before moving to international rugby, and at that point other players at that age are way ahead in development. Our players struggle to catch up. I find it baffling why the IRFU cannot see this.

For every North, Cuthbert etc. you have a Danny Cipriani, Denis Hickie & Tommy Bowe who all foundered when they were thrown in too early. Denis Hickie was dropped like a hot potato by Gatland for 2 years after SA nilled Ireland in SA.

Rods, just as well you are not making the decisions on who isn't going to make it - you'd have cut Tommy Bowe off at the ripe old age of 24 if in charge!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Thomond wrote:Dineen could be the big kinda centre guys want, he won't get much game time I'd say but he is pretty big, fast, and good at breaking the line.

Is that all Earls' fault though Rory? The guy hardly wants to be moved from position to position. I doubt Fitz does either. We moved him round at Munster a lot but by and large he has played 13, Ireland don't see him as that so he plays anywhere. Can he really be expect to be great in a position he gets little game time in? You could say similar things when Luke Fitz was being moved around

Mate, I don't think any of it is Earls' fault. He isn't the first guy in rugby to say what his favourite position is but not play there. SBW came from league not really knowing where to play, and the coaches saw he could make a promising 12. Foden wanted to play 9, and he even moved clubs to play there, but the coaches knew he had the most potential at 15. A coach should be able to spot these things, and develop the player to fulfil his potential.

Very true, Deccie is a phsychologist more than a coach. To actually mould our players, we have a specialist forwards coach, and a defence coach.

Thomond wrote:They got to a semi final and came third something Ireland have never done. Rodders, I can see your logic alright, the German football side took 7 years of great work being down to completely dismantle and rebuild their youth system.

7 years is about right Thomond.

Think about it... if you took our U-20s side, started filtering them through with the aim that the core of them would be coming into the side straight after the 2015 RWC, with a few of them actually being part of that tournament surrounded by players in their mid twenties who may make the next RWC too.

That means heading into 2019 with the core of the side between 27 and 31 and with at least 5 6N under their belts (and 2 GSs).

Lift the Web Ellis trophy, go home, Celtic tiger starts again, everyones a winner. Simple. .

The difference is the core of this German side is young, so you would be talking abou guys who are now 14/15/16..

Sin é wrote:Rods, just as well you are not making the decisions on who isn't going to make it - you'd have cut Tommy Bowe off at the ripe old age of 24 if in charge!

I actually did write Bowe off at 24..... what can I say, you can't be right all the time..... ...

Rory_Gallagher wrote:That is all totally based on this season though Rava - again people have forgotten just how effective Spence was in the 2010/11 season. There was a reason he was selected for the 6 nations, he was a tremendous talent in both defence and attack. He has fantastic foot work, alongside his physicality and pace. This season he plays 12, and he picks up the habit of running straight for contact. Not really a coincidence, he plays a position he isn't as good at and is used to play that "bish-bash" game you describe.

Cave is better at certain things, while Spence is also better at certain things. I actually think that while Cave is better at putting people into space and in distribution, Spence is MUCH more dangerous with ball in hand. Cave just doesn't have his footwork, his pace or his strength. Spence really needs to unlearn this running straight for contact business, which he picked up from his games at 12, and improve his distribution, but he has been mismanaged this season in general.

No sorry Rory, you aren't getting away with that one. His one big fault in his first season was his inability to distribute good ball to anyone outside him. I lost count of the number of times I said "he can't/won't pass". There is no doubting his defence and, as I have said before, his pace would be better utilised on the wing.

So are you saying Spence wasn't good in the 2010/11? I don't understand what you think I am getting away with, I agree with you about his distribution. Like I already said, his distribution needs work, but that doesn't undo an entire season of sheer excellence. He was fantastic, and it wasn't just irish fans who noticed him. Distribution can be taught. NZ stuck with Nonu despite his poor distribution and now he is one of the best playmakers in the game. He has a lovely pass and knows when to go outside. Something he was once criticised for. Spence needs better distribution and awareness but does that undo his raw talent? No. He can be developed into something great.

This is what I mean though, we focus on a player's faults rather than their strengths. Lack of experience especially is a criticism. Then lack of defence, or lack of awareness, or lack of pace/strength. I have done it too about Earls, Cave, McFadden etc. The Ireland team play in a very conservative and safe way, the game where we try not to lose rather than try to win. We don't play to the strengths of our players. Which is why we will never reach our potential.

Personally I think Dom Ryan is a better player than POM. He is more physical. They are both the same weight but Ryan seems to be a bigger hitter. POM is an aggressive and very comitted player but for some reason gets bossed around a bit. Ryans cause isnt helped by the fact that the leinster back row is very strong and as a result he doesnt get enough game time. Anytime I have seen him start or come on he has made a difference and had an impact on the game.

I don't think POM does get bossed about at all. Some of his carries recently have been very effective, despite the fact he gets the ball static. I still think he should bulk up in the off season, especially if he wants to play 8. I do agree though that Ryan might be just as talented as POM is. Hopefully he will get plenty of game time for Leinster this season.

Guns - do you see him as a 6 or 7 ultimately?

Interestingly both players have very similar stats. Same age, weight, height, position. Really thought Ryan would be capped by now.

Ryan is a victim of Leinster's great backrow success. While POM is a product of the retirements and injuries of Quinlan, Wallace and Leamy. He would have got gametime last year but he really brokew through due to injuries I feel.

I have said before our future back row may be this:

6) O'Mahony
7) Ryan
8) O'Brien

Or

6) Ryan
7) O'Brien
8) O'Mahony

Might be a bit lightweight though.

Rava wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Rava I am fully aware what age Cave is but thanks

For that reason, while Cave is currently better than Spence, I feel from an Irish perspective that it would be better for Spence to be starting 13 for Ulster.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well you could say he is holding back Spence.

I don't think Spence should be replacing Cave anyway soon, or at least until he has added some skill to his bish-bash game. And, Rory, in answer to your comment about Cave getting the 13 jersey back easily I don't agree. He is the better of the two and if Spence is to be considered in the centre then his "current" game is probably better suited to 12. Of the young centres available to both Ulster and Ireland, unfortunately I see Spence too far down the list.

As a matter of interest, can anyone tell me when Spence last played 13? Is it possible management didnt just play him at 12 because Wallace was away, and in fact Ulster now see Spence as a 12? Did he play 13 last season? I don't remember.

Ulster management would not be doing their job if they ignored the fact that Payne and Bowe are excellent 13s, possibly better than Spence or Cave at the minute. You play your best 15. If that means Trimble gets a wing spot and Cave loses out in midfield, potentially it might be our best 15.

It could also be very likely that the IRFU may look at Bowe at 13 and have a word in Ulsters ear.

Oooh thats an interesting one. So you'd be looking at:

09 Pienaar
10 Jackson
11 Gilroy
12 Wallace
13 Bowe
14 Trimble
15 Payne

Interesting.

Arguably, considering Jackson greeness, our best 15 might be to move Wallace into 10 and play Spence at 12. To be clear, I'm not saying i want this.

It proves adequatly though that teams dont always play there best possible 15 because they are planning for the future.
Something, Kidney does not understand, instead opting for best possible 15 every time regardless of what that means for a developing (or lack thereof) team.

Clive, I don't think Wallace will play at 10 even when Pienaar is away. Jackson will be grand.
Bowe at 13 is an interesting option. Not one I would advocate mind but stranger things have happened. I expect Anscombe will be studying some video and having a good look at his options in the backs.

Rava, I also dont think Wallace will play 10. But would you agree that, if we ignored player development and were just asked to pick the best 15, it would have Wallace at 10? Of course your right, Jackson will be grand. Grand - Not excellent, not 100%, but thats the way teams develop, perserverence and trust and certain amount of blind hope for the future.

As for Kidney. Maybe the first NZ test saw him take a few chances, But very quickly like a scared little boy, who didnt like the uncertainty and risk, he ran back to his method of picking the best 15 players regardless of what that means for development.

If Kidney picked the Ulster team tomorrow, the thought of Jackson would drive him to panic. Kidney would pick Wallace at 10.

12 and 13 are not different positions. 6 and 7 are.

Discuss.....

Re Bowe I think its pretty clear from the noises coming from Bowe that he sees his future (and perhaps present too) at 13...

I would actually see Paddy Wallace being the player to make way for Bowe, not Cave or Trimble..maybe not initially but beyond this season.

The bigger question is whether Kidney sees Bowe as a midfield option, I would say he doesn't but I would be very surprised if he doesn't play there for Ulster.

Really thought Kidney would have been sacked after the 60-0 embarassment. What does he have to do to get the sack. Bizarre really.

I think Kidney is shipping way too much flak.

Yes seriously I do.

And no my account hasn't been hacked .

Kidney hasn't done a great job (understatement) but the provincial coaches and management have to take a big share of the blame too for the failings of the national side, as do the IRFU. The whole set up needs evaluated from top to bottom.

Most of all the players need to carry the can for the performances on tour.

It wasn't Kidney falling off tackles, throwing silly 50:50 offloads, backpeddling in defence and hoofing the ball down the ABs throats....getting beasted at the contact. Kidneys selections may have at times helped facilitate the losses, and scorelines, but ultimately the players weren't up to the standard required.

rodders wrote:, but ultimately the players weren't up to the standard required.

The players showed in the second test v nz, the 2011 6ns game v England, and the 2011 wc Australia game that they can play at a very high standard, showing true potential. Coach's job is to utilise and develop that potential. That has simply not happened. Instead we have become the most inconsistant team in the world. The bulk of the failings of our international team are absolutely due to the management. Dont think the blame can lie with provinces either. Leinster played a massive amount of players this season, munster too did a decent job giving youngun's gametime. Ulster are really only province who rely too heavily on overseas. No potential international players have been prevented from playing for their clubs other than marshall at ulster

rodders wrote:I think Kidney is shipping way too much flak.

Yes seriously I do.

And no my account hasn't been hacked .

Kidney hasn't done a great job (understatement) but the provincial coaches and management have to take a big share of the blame too for the failings of the national side, as do the IRFU. The whole set up needs evaluated from top to bottom.

Most of all the players need to carry the can for the performances on tour.

It wasn't Kidney falling off tackles, throwing silly 50:50 offloads, backpeddling in defence and hoofing the ball down the ABs throats....getting beasted at the contact. Kidneys selections may have at times helped facilitate the losses, and scorelines, but ultimately the players weren't up to the standard required.

These same players dont do that either normally, not for their clubs.

So what is it then? Long season tiredness, or their hearts arnt in it for their country?

What other options are there to explain it Rodders?

If the players arent up to the standards required then that is the coach's and the management's fault. Thats to do with coaching rather than ability in my opinion. The players we have all have ample ability.

The only exception I would ever make to this is getting hammered 60-0. No matter how bad your manager and coaching you should never lose by so much. It was a disgrace so yes the players deserve a lot of criticism for that. However, it was Kidney's abysmal tactics, lack or creativity/forward thinking management etc. that got us to that point. So why is he still Ireland manager? Surely the IRFU are assessing potential sucessors? Id actually take EOS back at this point.

clivemcl wrote:These same players dont do that either normally, not for their clubs.

So what is it then? Long season tiredness, or their hearts arnt in it for their country?

What other options are there to explain it Rodders?

Well Clive I'm not Kidney fan but I would bet my last dollar that he didn't tell the players to fall off tackles.

The standard is simply much higher against the AB's and we weren't able to live with the pace, physicality and intensity.

The Rabo/ HEC set up creates an enviroment where the players peak for one off big performances, at most 2 weeks running followed by a rest or big drop in intensity.

That is what is reflected in the National side, they simply aren't able to produce consistant performances and the Heino performances are masking 2 things:

1) Too many players are simply past their primes - BOD, D'arcy, ROG, DOC, Ross.. maybe POC. Physically and mentally they can't produce top performances consistantly anymore over 80 min.

Some of the younger guys who should be at their peaks are squad players for their provinces and are neither experienced or mentally tough enough to play weak in weak out at a high intensity.

2) The lack of quality and/or depth in certain positions is being covered up by NIQ imports.

The enviroment to produce top level performances consistantly does not exist in Ireland right now, Kidney is just one part of that. There's too many NIQs, too many aging players, not enough competition for places, too much conservatism regarding young players, too much provincial bickering.

All these can resolved but just papering over the cracks and making Kidney a scapegoat isn't enough.

We all wet our pants with excitment when our provinces sign players like John Afoa or BJ Botha and then hide behind the couch when our national teams scrum gets butchered or Mike Ross gets injured.

We all want to have our cake and eat it too.

Rodders, that is a good post.

clivemcl wrote:
If Kidney picked the Ulster team tomorrow, the thought of Jackson would drive him to panic. Kidney would pick Wallace at 10.

Nonsense - ever hear of O'Gara & Stringer? (and neither of those 2 had the comfort of someone minding them). Then of course there is Conor Murray more recently

You're being a bit harsh on POC being over the hill, I mean the fella hasn't played since March. I think the gameplan we play is also a bit at fault, we play a game that no Irish team plays currently or hasn't played in the past and we don't have the physicality for it. We can bring it at times but not consistently, hence the brilliant and shoite performances.

Rods - Has someone kidnapped you? I'm going to have to lie down after reading that post.



Edit: I don't agree about POC either - just he has been carrying some injuries lately. He is really missed.

A good post, but surely we've all been guilty of 'wetting our pants' with the NIQ signings. I for one in the space of a week went from saying 'we shouldnt be looking to sign an NIQ backrower' to googling Jaques Botes like a kid on Christmas morning, all in the space of a week!

Truth is, I'd happily see a reduction to 3 NIQs if it were across the board. But for now, I wont apologise that we made better purchases in our NIQ spots whilst sticking within the rules.

Out of interest, would a reduction in NIQs really hurt Ulster more than it would Leinster/Munster?

NIQs isnt the full story either. On the face of it, bringing Wilson and bowe back is a good thing, but not really if it still means other players dont get gametime.
The AIL is not good enough for the squad/development players.

Should we create a Rabo A team league?

clivemcl wrote:A good post, but surely we've all been guilty of 'wetting our pants' with the NIQ signings

yes I'm guilty of it too....but after the 6N and NZ tour, and regressively looking back at last summer..I'm starting to feel differentely.

Against Wales * 2 and England we were outgunned and against NZ we looked like boys (and oaps) against men. The tight 5 isn't good enough against the best teams, the backs lack pace, skill and power and we expect miracles of our backrow to keep us afloat. Everything has become about shutting other teams down because we don't have enough fire power of our own.

Re POC, agreed hes still world class, the best maybe, its not a criticism of him directly but a general point about the age profile v consistancy.

It's not doom and gloom though, there's plenty of talent around..not least in the U-20s. Turning the talent into top level players is the challenge though and for a decade the IRFU (and the provinces) have struggled to do this generally. The chickens are coming home to roost now as the old guard fall away, some quicker than expected.

rodders wrote:

clivemcl wrote:These same players dont do that either normally, not for their clubs.

So what is it then? Long season tiredness, or their hearts arnt in it for their country?

What other options are there to explain it Rodders?

Well Clive I'm not Kidney fan but I would bet my last dollar that he didn't tell the players to fall off tackles.

The standard is simply much higher against the AB's and we weren't able to live with the pace, physicality and intensity.

The Rabo/ HEC set up creates an enviroment where the players peak for one off big performances, at most 2 weeks running followed by a rest or big drop in intensity.

That is what is reflected in the National side, they simply aren't able to produce consistant performances and the Heino performances are masking 2 things:

1) Too many players are simply past their primes - BOD, D'arcy, ROG, DOC, Ross.. maybe POC. Physically and mentally they can't produce top performances consistantly anymore over 80 min.

Some of the younger guys who should be at their peaks are squad players for their provinces and are neither experienced or mentally tough enough to play weak in weak out at a high intensity.

2) The lack of quality and/or depth in certain positions is being covered up by NIQ imports.

The enviroment to produce top level performances consistantly does not exist in Ireland right now, Kidney is just one part of that. There's too many NIQs, too many aging players, not enough competition for places, too much conservatism regarding young players, too much provincial bickering.

All these can resolved but just papering over the cracks and making Kidney a scapegoat isn't enough.

We all wet our pants with excitment when our provinces sign players like John Afoa or BJ Botha and then hide behind the couch when our national teams scrum gets butchered or Mike Ross gets injured.

We all want to have our cake and eat it too.

I disagree. I am one of the few posters who has continously agrued that the IRFU's new policies on foreign players are a good idea. I am in favour of Isa Nacewa moving on etc.

I do think Kidney deserves a lot of the criticism directed at the team though rodders. For me there are 3 main faults:

1) The mentality - I think Kidney is happy enough with certain performances and will make plenty of excuses as to why his team lost, or say it is "a game of small margins". He seems to like having the underdog status and this is something we want to move on from. We should not be content with mediocrity. If the coach is, then clearly his players aren't going to perform at their best.

2) Bizarre selections - Rodders, you went mental at this during the tour, as did I. Some of the selections Kidney made, and his reasons for making these decisions, were just insane. Picking a centre on the wing because left and right wing are so different. Sticking with Murray (which I am fine with) but dropping anyone else who wasn't good enough. It was bizarre to say the least.

3) Out of his depth - He just can't keep up with the pace. There is a total lack of structure and organisation to our team. Our attack is non existent. We are not even remotely a threat with ball in hand. Now that our defence coach is also our attack coach, our defence has lacked any structure. Which used to be our one strength. I do think the missed tackles are largely due to this.

All in all, I think Kidney does play a large part in all this. However, you are right rodders about the other factors involved.

clivemcl wrote:
Truth is, I'd happily see a reduction to 3 NIQs if it were across the board. But for now, I wont apologise that we made better purchases in our NIQ spots whilst sticking within the rules.

Out of interest, would a reduction in NIQs really hurt Ulster more than it would Leinster/Munster?

Yes 3 NIQs or maybe 1 forward-1 back or something is what I am thinking too.

I'm not asking anyone to apologise, I'm an Ulster fan too! It's something that is hurting us though and does need adressed if we want a stronger national side.

The IRFU giving guys like D'arcy 2 year contracts too. It's not just about NIQs.

I think a reduction in NIQs would hurt all the provinces initially, Leinster the least who I think would still be HEC contenders but not maybe 3 time champs. I think all 3 would do a lot better than you would think though.

Look at the Ospreys though, they did it are a better side for it.

I find it odd then that people are so negative about irish granny players and project players. I personally have no issue with it.

I also think our problems are with Connacht being too weak and too many players with a shout are warming benches or worse.

For example, will it be good for Ireland that only two of Trimble, Bowe, Gilroy will start for Ulster?

i wouldnt want to see them leave, but it would certainly help ireland if more players of the standard of Faloon or greater were able to play first team rugby with Connacht.

Ulster have brought 4* Irish eligable players (back) to Ireland this season. Good thing? Not for those who have more competition to get gametime.

Like I say the clubs squad players need more opportunities to play a higher level than AIL.


*EDIT - Actually its 5

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I do think Kidney deserves a lot of the criticism directed at the team though rodders. For me there are 3 main faults:

1) The mentality - I think Kidney is happy enough with certain performances and will make plenty of excuses as to why his team lost, or say it is "a game of small margins". He seems to like having the underdog status and this is something we want to move on from. We should not be content with mediocrity. If the coach is, then clearly his players aren't going to perform at their best.

2) Bizarre selections - Rodders, you went mental at this during the tour, as did I. Some of the selections Kidney made, and his reasons for making these decisions, were just insane. Picking a centre on the wing because left and right wing are so different. Sticking with Murray (which I am fine with) but dropping anyone else who wasn't good enough. It was bizarre to say the least.

3) Out of his depth - He just can't keep up with the pace. There is a total lack of structure and organisation to our team. Our attack is non existent. We are not even remotely a threat with ball in hand. Now that our defence coach is also our attack coach, our defence has lacked any structure. Which used to be our one strength. I do think the missed tackles are largely due to this.

All in all, I think Kidney does play a large part in all this. However, you are right rodders about the other factors involved.

I agree. To add. Why does Murray always partner Sexton and O'Gara Reddan. This makes no sense.

clivemcl wrote:I find it odd then that people are so negative about irish granny players and project players. I personally have no issue with it.

I also think our problems are with Connacht being too weak and too many players with a shout are warming benches or worse.

For example, will it be good for Ireland that only two of Trimble, Bowe, Gilroy will start for Ulster?

i wouldnt want to see them leave, but it would certainly help ireland if more players of the standard of Faloon or greater were able to play first team rugby with Connacht.

Ulster have brought 4 Irish eligable players (back) to Ireland this season. Good thing? Not for those who have more competition to get gametime.

Like I say the clubs squad players need more opportunities to play a higher level than AIL.

Granny and project players playing for Ireland are not ideal. However, where there is a need for a quality import in a provincial set up then granny and project players are the best solution. It is the best solution for a difficult problem and I commend the IRFU for it.

Rory I agree with you, I just think he's taking all the flak when some of it needs directed elsewhere too.

The project players do not sit well with me, if I am being totally honest. I am not a fan. The suggestions that Payne should be the Ulster and possibly future irish 13 does not sit well with me when we have Cave, Spence and Farrell already as options.

rodders wrote:Rory I agree with you, I just think he's taking all the flak when some of it needs directed elsewhere too.

Yeah certainly. Certain players were not good, however, there are some players who really did come out of that tour on a high note. The 4 players for me that did that are Healy, O'Brien, Ryan and Best. That is the core of our pack right there, and something we can build upon. Add Ferris to that and that is the majority of the forwards. A good place to work from.

The backs however, are just a mess IMO. I think there needs to be a lot of change there.