My Irish Squad for the Autumn

First topic message reminder :

This is obviously hypothetical as it is well in advance and there is some rugby to be played and of course players will go in and out of form and of course some may get injured.

I'd like something of a revamp compared to what has been going on in the Irish team for the past 12 months or so. I am picking this squad to play fast, off the deck rugby and I would want the team to be coached as such and the tactics to reflect this. For that reason there could be some big name absentees.

Am leaving out some of the injured lot who may not make it back in time.

Please bare in mind this is the training squad and thus some are in who won't play albeit to make up numbers or for experience
LH's: Healy-Court-McAllister
TH's: Ross-Fitzpatrick-Hagan
Hk's: Best-Strauss-Cronin
Locks: POC-Ryan-Tuohy-Toner-DOC
Backrow: Ferris-Ryan-POM-Henry-Wilson-Heaslip
Scrumhalves: Reddan-Murray-Marshall
Flyhalves: Sexton-Madigan-Jackson
Centres: Downey-BOD-Cave-McFadden
Back 3: Bowe-Earls-Gilroy-Zebo-Kearney-Trimble

20 forwards and 16 backs

Not considered due to injury: SOB, Kearney Jr, Fitzgerald, Ruddock, Jones

Reasonings:

1) McAllister I think could be a great shout and has looked promising when he gets gametime, better than Wilkinson anyways. Hopefully McGrath can start making an impression at Leinster.
2) Strauss in as he is just a league above Sherry
3) Hagan I think has more talent than Loughney I think and would like to see Macklin more often.
4) DOC is in there really to make up the numbers to be honest, not sure if Nagle is ready may benefit from playing while others are away anyways. Toner deservedly in the squad ahead of McCarthy.
5) Ryan in instead of Jennings. Jennings hasn't performed at International level so going with youth. Wilson I believe could get in there but will be behind Heaslip.
6) I'd have the 9's in that order and if there was a 4th spot would take Stringer.
7) Not taking ROG due to the desire to play attacking rugby which I don't feel he can do right from the off. I think Madigan is much better at that and could be an excellent player for Ireland in the future. Excellent impact sub too. Jackson in as well as one for the future.
8 ) Downey in to try and fill the void in terms of size in the backs and bring physicality at 12. McFadden hopefully will have overtaken Darcy at 12 and all will be well with the world. Earls could be understudy to BOD but I don't think he is a 13 (he is a born winger) it could well be Cave but he needs to up it as do others like EOM, Spence etc.
9) I decided to include both Zebo and Gilroy and would ahve included Kearney Jr too if he wasn't injured ahead of Trimble.

My 22:

Healy-Best-Ross
Ryan-POC
Ferris-Heaslip-POM
Reddan-Sexton
Downey-BOD
Earls-Kearney-Bowe

Strauss-Fitzpatrick-Tuohy/Toner-Henry-Marshall-Madigan-Gilroy

I think that is a good attacking team who are mobile and yet abrasive. Downey and Bowe give the backs a target man. The locks in particular are really well balanced and the backrow looks tasty too.

The aim would be to play off quick ball and try and keep the tempo high, attacking before the defence has time to fully re-set. Use dummy runners and bring in the likes of Earls and Bowe into the line to create mismatches. Ferris, healy and POM would be the primary carriers in the pack and the entire backrow are more than capable lineout options. Scrummaging-wise I'd expect even more of an improvement due to POC in there but not sure I'd want him touching the ball much in terms of keeping the tempo up.

The bench would be used to increase the temp again with possibly Madigan or Sexton going in at 12 and Strauss injecting some pace as well. Tuohy/Toner would come on for POC in the last 15 all things going to plan.

What do people think?
Would you include/leave out someone?
Is that a good split?
Are there any other young guys who could be in there?
Can McFadden get ahead of Darcy?
Is Fitzpatrick worth a bench spot ahead of Court?
Would others bring ROG?
Is Ryan (the flanker) too green?
Is Nagle worth a shot?
Is there anywhere where we are weak?
Is Downey going to get a chance?

PLEASE DON'T LET THIS TURN INTO A NIQ DEBATE RE: STRAUSS.

Thomond wrote:He is a project player but it's also important to note he only has a 2 year deal, chances of him actually playing for Ireland are pretty slim I'd say.

Which is why he might as well just be any NIQ player. I think he has the option to stay on with Munster though after those two years.

rodders wrote:Guns SA don't have a policy of not selecting foreign based players.

Project players can't represent another country. That is why they are projects.

They do, they just dont enforce it. Of course project players can represent their country of birth. They choose not to. Provided they remain uncapped there is no contractual reason why they they cant change their mind.

Guns - no, the whole point is that when the project player signs, they are saying they would be ready to possibly represent Ireland in the future. Therefore they cannot represent their country while they are with the provinces. Otherwise they are just NIQs.

That is the whole point of the project players. They can't represent another country while they are at the provinces. When they finally become IQ I'm sure they are able to make the choice then. But until then, no.

Isnt it against IRB rules to have restrictions against playing for your country in any contract?
So a project player can still play for his own country. Just greatly decreases the likelihood of getting another contract with the IRFU!

I'll eat my hat if Stander isn't capped by SA. Even his wiki entry make it sound that the only reason he was signed was that Munster cannot sign a capped player!

Also think it suits the Bulls/SA. Useful experience for young Stander which will stand to him in years to come and Rob Penney (a backrower himself) as his coach who brought through Kieran Read among other Kiwi household names.

I'd say he will become NIQ next year if/when Dougie/Botha retire/leave and Munster have another NIQ spot.

SirJohnnyEnglish wrote:Isnt it against IRB rules to have restrictions against playing for your country in any contract?
So a project player can still play for his own country. Just greatly decreases the likelihood of getting another contract with the IRFU!

But the IRFU are paying for their contracts, that is the whole point. Meaning that they are basically signing a contract that ties them with Ireland for the next few years.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Guns - no, the whole point is that when the project player signs, they are saying they would be ready to possibly represent Ireland in the future. Therefore they cannot represent their country while they are with the provinces. Otherwise they are just NIQs.

That is the whole point of the project players. They can't represent another country while they are at the provinces. When they finally become IQ I'm sure they are able to make the choice then. But until then, no.

No NIQ are players that are already capped for another country. Project players are non capped players with whom the possibility of playing for Ireland may have been a factor in signing for an Irish province. Provided they remain uncapped there is no reason why they cannot return to their home nation and play for them. Even if it is contained in their contract that they cannot represent their home nation while contracted to an Irish province and I doubt very much that this is the case then it would still be possible to break that contract as in any job and return home.

Sin é wrote:I'll eat my hat if Stander isn't capped by SA. Even his wiki entry make it sound that the only reason he was signed was that Munster cannot sign a capped player!

Also think it suits the Bulls/SA. Useful experience for young Stander which will stand to him in years to come and Rob Penney (a backrower himself) as his coach who brought through Kieran Read among other Kiwi household names.

I'd say he will become NIQ next year if/when Dougie/Botha retire/leave and Munster have another NIQ spot.

Then will the IRFU still be paying him? If he is just NIQ.

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:Guns SA don't have a policy of not selecting foreign based players.

Project players can't represent another country. That is why they are projects.

They do, they just dont enforce it. Of course project players can represent their country of birth. They choose not to. Provided they remain uncapped there is no contractual reason why they they cant change their mind.

No they can't. They are signed on the basis that they are uncapped and thus available for Ireland after the residency period.

If they accept a call up then they no longer fulfill that criteria and thus can't be signed under the 'project' rule.

That is the stipulation in the contract and the player knows that when he signs.

So if SA say next season they want Stander to play for SA (like I said, Meyer thinks he is one of a few young players to be capped within the year) the IRFU are going to let him go? Despite the fact they are paying his contract, and he has signed as a player who could represent Ireland in the future?

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:Guns SA don't have a policy of not selecting foreign based players.

Project players can't represent another country. That is why they are projects.

They do, they just dont enforce it. Of course project players can represent their country of birth. They choose not to. Provided they remain uncapped there is no contractual reason why they they cant change their mind.

No they can't. They are signed on the basis that they are uncapped and thus available for Ireland after the residency period.

If they accept a call up then they no longer fulfill that criteria and thus can't be signed under the 'project' rule.

That is the stipulation in the contract and the player knows that when he signs.

That was my understanding too, rodders.

Sorry Guns just saw your last comment, of course once he's finished his contract he can play for whoever he wants.

I'm talking about whilst he has a project contract, not after.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the way it works is that the IRFU make a contribution to all players employed by the provinces* - its up to the provinces then to top them up.

*provincial contracts and central contracts

Rory_Gallagher wrote:So if SA say next season they want Stander to play for SA (like I said, Meyer thinks he is one of a few young players to be capped within the year) the IRFU are going to let him go? Despite the fact they are paying his contract, and he has signed as a player who could represent Ireland in the future?

No not if SA say he has to go but if Stander wants to leave then there is nothing stopping him from leaving whatsoever. All he needs to do is say he wants to leave and transfer back to a SA club. Exactly what is stopping him from leaving? Players break their contracts all the time.

Rodders, I agree that the provincial squads are bloated and i feel we do not make enough use of Connaught especially with them being in the HC. Faloon is better off playing for Connaught then being a bit part player at Ulster lets see how he gets on next year. Likewise Rhys Ruddock and Ian Nagle would be better served at Connaught. There are many others.

Also if players do end up leaving the emerald isle and do the business abroad they have to be considered. Wilson and Downey should have been in the reckoning when Northampton were flying. Just because Downey is now at Munster coming off a poor season should not mean he walks into the squad.

Its great to have your top players in Ireland but it can be an issue when your best up and coming youngsters are still miles away from starting week in week out

I still think a dedicated backs/attack coach would make a huge difference. There is no reason that we cannot put together a half decent international back division from:reddan,murray,marshall,sexton,madigan,jackson,hanrahan,downey,odriscoll,cave,earls,mc fadden, fitzgerald,bowe,trimble,gilroy,zebo,kearney
however if we persist in playing the game at such a tempo and using the backs sparingly it will not make a jot of a difference who plays nos 11-15. We might aswell pick the biggest lads who can go somewhere off crap ball and who can kick the ball the furthest

GunsGerms wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:So if SA say next season they want Stander to play for SA (like I said, Meyer thinks he is one of a few young players to be capped within the year) the IRFU are going to let him go? Despite the fact they are paying his contract, and he has signed as a player who could represent Ireland in the future?

No not if SA say he has to go but if Stander wants to leave then there is nothing stopping him from leaving whatsoever. All he needs to do is say he wants to leave and transfer back to a SA club. Exactly what is stopping him from leaving? Players break their contracts all the time.

Yeah of course he can, but it means he won't have actually fulfilled his part contract, which he signed Therefore he would be released by Munster for good. He must be getting paid a fair amount too, if the Bulls/SA can't even match it.

The money is exactly what would stop him from leaving.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:So if SA say next season they want Stander to play for SA (like I said, Meyer thinks he is one of a few young players to be capped within the year) the IRFU are going to let him go? Despite the fact they are paying his contract, and he has signed as a player who could represent Ireland in the future?

I don't think it works like that. To fullfill his contract all Stander has to do is not get himself capped until this time next year when, more than likely if he works out, Munster will be able to give him a NIQ spot for the remainder of his contract.

Exactly though. He isn't actually allowed to get capped otherwise he hasn't fulfilled the contract.

If there is an injury crisis in November or during the 3N though are S.Africa not allowed to call him up by rule?

They can call him up but he can't make himself available.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:If there is an injury crisis in November or during the 3N though are S.Africa not allowed to call him up by rule?

They are - but more than likely they won't so as not to urine him off. He has been in a Bok squad and Meyer has spoken to him so I'd say they know the situation and will leave him alone for the year or so.

Seem to remember hearing just before Jean de Villiers came to Munster that SA were delighted if some of their players headed off to Europe for a season or two to a team who were going to be playing in Europe as it gave them a bit of an advantage come international time. Its like we'd be delighted if Ireland had someone playing Super Rugby for a season or two and then to come back home.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The money is exactly what would stop him from leaving.

I doubt if he would be on huge money for the Bulls with only 13 caps for them and huge competition in their backrow.

dublin_dave wrote:Rodders, I agree that the provincial squads are bloated ...

Not sure about this. Ulster have 34 full-time contracts.

If, as has been suggested, 20% of your squad in injured at any time, that leaves 28 players. So during the AIs or 6Ns, we either need the njiuries to be spread very evenly over different positions, or to be suffered solely by out international players, who we'd be doing without anyway. We have three wingers, two of whom may well be called up for international duty (Bowe and Trimble), and the third deserves it (Gilroy). It would take one injury to our wingers during an international window and we'd be fielding a development contract winger (Cochrane) and someone playing out of position (D'Arcy or Spence). Potentially in an important game.

Whitten and Faloon have gone. Whitten got plenty of gametime last season - not only at IC, but on the wing. He would still have been 2nd choice IC to a 32-year old Paddy Wallace at the start of this season. Faloon, despite seriously going off the boil, was second choice openside for much of last season.

Yet both have gone.

With all the talk of players being "clogged up" in various positions, and how they should move on (which I agree with in principle, and can't actually begrudge Whitten or Faloon), I think we need to remember that you need at least two decent players for each position. Whitten was no further down the pecking order in the Ulster backs than Ryan is at the back row at Leinster.

I don't think I actually said the provincial squads were bloated, just that there were too many NIQs and aging players across the provinces?

From a provincial point of view you need big squads with depth and competition for places.

Ulsters problem has been getting a big enough squad whilst retaining players who harbour ambitions of being first choice. It would have been slightly better for us to retain Whitten and Faloon, however I'm happy they won't be blocking the development of Marshall and Birch.

It's definitely better for Ireland to see Marshall and Birch get more game time. I think it's better for Ulster in the long term, at least in the case of Luke Marshall. Short term it's something that may hold us back.

Funnily enough, I'd have the opposite take. Whitten we'll miss (including on the wing), Birch is a more than adequate replacement for Faloon, who only plays one position. I am hoping for big things from Marshall, but if we ever have to play P. Marshall - Jackson - L. Marshall, or especially Mcilroy or Heaney instead of L. Marshall, that is a ludicrously inexperienced line-up. We could lose to anybody if two of those three get the jitters. Whilst not amazing, Whitten is good and could have steadied the boat.

Yep, thats what I mean by bad in the short term for Ulster. It's also quite likely we'll be fielding that line-up in the first few games.

I was hoping Paddy Wallace would be available in the early part of the season given his omission from the tour, but kindly uncle Declan Kidney had a crisis of confidence and... well, we know the story.

Don Alfonso wrote:Funnily enough, I'd have the opposite take. Whitten we'll miss (including on the wing), Birch is a more than adequate replacement for Faloon, who only plays one position. I am hoping for big things from Marshall, but if we ever have to play P. Marshall - Jackson - L. Marshall, or especially Mcilroy or Heaney instead of L. Marshall, that is a ludicrously inexperienced line-up. We could lose to anybody if two of those three get the jitters. Whilst not amazing, Whitten is good and could have steadied the boat.

Don, you mentioned having to play players out of position in an injury crisis. Truth is, this is fairly standard practice. If you watch any super 15 you will know that most of the top level players are trusted in positions you wouldn't normally see them in.

Also, (and I'm not massively knowledgeable about S15) I'm pretty sure its not uncommon for S15 sides to play a player during injury crisis that the commentators barely know about. It just so happens that in the southern hemisphere, their random squad players are a heck of a lot better than our squad players. I'm thinking about the equivalents of say Ulsters Cochrane or Heaney. You rarely see a player in S15 and think "oh this is embarrassing, hes so far off the standard".

I think for example, any Irish player who could be starting for another club in the league but instead is a squad player for a club is a waste, or at the very least its less than ideal from an international development perspective.

What about the idea of loan deals? Whats people opinions of that?

Or back to my earlier point, creating a higher standard 'A' team league of sorts?

clivemcl wrote:
Also, (and I'm not massively knowledgeable about S15) I'm pretty sure its not uncommon for S15 sides to play a player during injury crisis that the commentators barely know about. It just so happens that in the southern hemisphere, their random squad players are a heck of a lot better than our squad players. I'm thinking about the equivalents of say Ulsters Cochrane or Heaney. You rarely see a player in S15 and think "oh this is embarrassing, hes so far off the standard".

That actually reminds me of something John Afoa was saying a few months ago, that our schools system doesn't prepare our players to the required standard the way it does in NZ.

He said that in NZ the school players had regular coaching from the pro coaches and were on intense training regimes, once they reached academy level then they were already physically, mentally and technically ready to play 1st grade rugby, they were just waiting on the opportunity.

By contrast in Ulster, and I presume this extends to the rest of Ireland, he said the young guys coming into the Academy were being exposed to high level training for the first time and still needed a lot of work to reach the standard needed to play pro rugby and many had never done serious weights training at that stage.

He was pretty shocked at how low the standard was in our academies and it was something he was keen to help address.

Notch wrote:Yep, thats what I mean by bad in the short term for Ulster. It's also quite likely we'll be fielding that line-up in the first few games.

I was hoping Paddy Wallace would be available in the early part of the season given his omission from the tour, but kindly uncle Declan Kidney had a crisis of confidence and... well, we know the story.

Paddy should never have accepted that cenetral contract. Pity Ruan Pienaar won't be available - costly for Ulster those 3 x 20 minute or so cameos for SA from the bench

rodders wrote:I don't think I actually said the provincial squads were bloated, just that there were too many NIQs and aging players across the provinces?

From a provincial point of view you need big squads with depth and competition for places.

The NIQ are in brackets follwed by the next best IQ player

15- Kearney, Jones, (Terblanche) -- Darcy
14- (ISA)-- Mcfadden, Johne Murphy, Trimble
13- BOD, Earls,Cave
12- Darcy, (Mafi)--Hanrahan, Wallace
11- Fitz, Zebo, Gilroy
10- Sexton, ROG/Keatley, Humph/Jackson
9- Reddan/Boss, Murray, (Peinnaar)--Marshall
8- Heaslip, Coughlan, (Wannenburg)--Jury's out
7- SOB, Ronan/O Donnell, Henry
6- Mclaughlin, POM, Fez
5- (Thorne)- Toner, POC, Tuohy
4- Cullen, Ryan, (Muller)--?
3- Ross, (Botha)--? (Afoa)--Fitzpatrick
2- Strauss/Cronin, Sherry, Best
1- Healy, (Du Preez)--?, Court


Its farily clear the only 2 positions NIQ players are filling in is prop and second row, neither of which were in any way our weakness v nz. Every other position has at least 2 other regular IQ Heineken players where there is 1 NIQ. Some positions have 2 Irish Qualified Heineken finalists where there is 1 NIQ. Besides these players, there is D Kearney and Spence who have both played sufficient HC rugby to merit being on the brink of the national side (spence moreso last year), the onus is on the national side to bring them in.

Thats still far too many Kunu, in nearly every position one of the top 3 best players in the country is an NIE, particularly so in the pack.

That is contributing to inflated expectations for the national side as the tight 5's at provincial level are being heavily bolstered by top class oversees players.

Thats not to excuse Kidney, or the players for underperforming but it can't be ignored when we analyse why the National side is so inconsistant and relatively poor compared to the provinces.

When you throw the number of players >30 into the mix its not rocket science, you will struggle to perform at the highest level over an intense period.

A better test would be to see how many IQ players, younger than 28 who are in the top 3 players in the country right now...that will show some positions where we are threadbare in terms of depth and quality I think.

Yeah that's a good point with regards to future developement Rodders. We need to throw caution to the wind selection-wise more often. But for the nz tour, and the present, 12 of our starting XV were HC final starters, therefore the best players that the best 2 provinces in Europe had to offer. Losing so dramatically makes me firmly believe we could have absolutely brilliant players, but they would all be ruined by our management.

Your argument pretty much suggests rodders that 90% of Ulster and leinsters success this past season was down to Pienaar, Muller, Isa and Thorn. Surely we arnt so reliant on them that with them we get HC finalists, and without them we lose 60-0 to NZ?

clivemcl wrote:Your argument pretty much suggests rodders that 90% of Ulster and leinsters success this past season was down to Pienaar, Muller, Isa and Thorn. Surely we arnt so reliant on them that with them we get HC finalists, and without them we lose 60-0 to NZ?

Thats not my argument at all, thats you misinterpreting what I am saying.

Kunu its not about throwing caution to the wind, its about creating an infrastructure and enviroment where the best talents can rise to the top, at a younger age and be best prepared for top level international rugby.

NZ have that enviroment and we don't.

If you only have 4 professional teams and in those teams you have 20 highly paid overseas players + 18 established centrally contracted Irish players of whom a fair percentage are 28+ years old occupying 1st team places then that leaves very limited opportuntity for younger players to play at the highest level compared to some other countries.

Unfortunately what is clear is that the Rabo and Wolfhounds do not prepare young players to compete with the top 6 international sides and facing players like McCaw, SBW and Gear.

The academies need to be improved, the schools/underage system needs revamped and opportunities need created at provincial level for the younger players. The AIB needs invested in because the gap is too big between club and provincial rugby.

All great in theory but unfortunately the Ruan Pienaars, Brian O'Driscolls, Paul O'Connells are what brings in the crowds and sponsorship not the Dave Kearneys, Declan Fitzpatricks and Dave O'Callaghans.

I still dont buy it. Ireland have always had pretty much the same system, and its only now that people are turning on it. Its different to nz's, because we dont have the same meteoric talents coming through. In my opinion, its another scapegoat for the shortcomings of the management. Remember the "natural 7" business a couple of months ago? same deal.

rodders wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Your argument pretty much suggests rodders that 90% of Ulster and leinsters success this past season was down to Pienaar, Muller, Isa and Thorn. Surely we arnt so reliant on them that with them we get HC finalists, and without them we lose 60-0 to NZ?

Thats not my argument at all, thats you misinterpreting what I am saying.

Sorry if i misinterpreted Rodders, but i did say 'pretty much suggests' so basically it was me taking your complaint about NIQs to its logical end. I still dont believe NIQs can be held responsible for losing 60-0. Not when they only account for 8 of the 46 squad players on heineken cup final day.

I dont believe theres any more benefit to Gilroy being backup to Bowe than to some other foreigner. The main problem lies with far too many people with 'potential' and not enough opportunities to explore that potential at a higher level.

I'm glad Bowe is back, but I'm not convinced its good for Ireland to have either Trimble or Gilroy demoted from regular first team action. Theres plenty could be done before scapegoating our big name signings.

kunu wrote:I still dont buy it. Ireland have always had pretty much the same system

And we have never ever been successful internationally.

kunu wrote:Its only now that people are turning on it.

The reason is that in 2006, 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2012 Irish teams have won the European Cup. However in that same period we have only got 1 Six Nations title to show for it. In both Rugby World Cups during this time we got knocked out of pool stages in one, and got to our usual quarter finals in the other. We are in a rut.

Replacing the management is not a silver bullet. It won't make everything better and we'll magically win the World Cup.

clivemcl wrote:

I think for example, any Irish player who could be starting for another club in the league but instead is a squad player for a club is a waste, or at the very least its less than ideal from an international development perspective.

What about the idea of loan deals? Whats people opinions of that?

Or back to my earlier point, creating a higher standard 'A' team league of sorts?

I wonder if we could go back to these points i made earlier. Any merit in these do you think?

red_stag wrote:

kunu wrote:I still dont buy it. Ireland have always had pretty much the same system

And we have never ever been successful internationally.

kunu wrote:Its only now that people are turning on it.

The reason is that in 2006, 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2012 Irish teams have won the European Cup. However in that same period we have only got 1 Six Nations title to show for it. In both Rugby World Cups during this time we got knocked out of pool stages in one, and got to our usual quarter finals in the other. We are in a rut.

Replacing the management is not a silver bullet. It won't make everything better and we'll magically win the World Cup.

Is that what people are looking for?Winning the World Cup isn't really what I'm hoping for.

I think a change to a top class management team would make us competitive again and that's all I want.We should be winning most of our home games maybe 80% and challenging for the 6 Nations every year,winning it occasionally.We should never be humiliated like we were in the last Test,results like the 1st Test v NZ can and will happen again but the last one was unacceptable.

red_stag wrote:

kunu wrote:I still dont buy it. Ireland have always had pretty much the same system

And we have never ever been successful internationally.

kunu wrote:Its only now that people are turning on it.

The reason is that in 2006, 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2012 Irish teams have won the European Cup. However in that same period we have only got 1 Six Nations title to show for it. In both Rugby World Cups during this time we got knocked out of pool stages in one, and got to our usual quarter finals in the other. We are in a rut.

Replacing the management is not a silver bullet. It won't make everything better and we'll magically win the World Cup.

Well considering most of the players are IQ who have been winning the HC during those years, as ive just pointed out, is it not clear that we have a serious case of mismanagement?

Never said it would solve all our problems. But it is absolutely the most obvious path to take at the moment. Any other country would have sacked Deccie at least a year ago. We play the completely wrong brand of rugby for the players we have, playing a game that suits them will make a massive difference.

I'm not denying that we need to restructure. But I am very much of the opinion that the management is the primary source of Ireland's woe right now

Asoreleftshoulder and Kunu

Clearly management needs to be replaced. I agree in full.

But a lot more needs to be done.

clivemcl wrote:
Sorry if i misinterpreted Rodders, but i did say 'pretty much suggests' so basically it was me taking your complaint about NIQs to its logical end. I still dont believe NIQs can be held responsible for losing 60-0. Not when they only account for 8 of the 46 squad players on heineken cup final day.

No I don't believe that either but I do believe that they are a key part of a system that is enabling us to be extremely successful at provincial/European club level but is hindering us from putting out a side that can consistantly win Grand slams and compete for RWCs.

I'm not scapegoating anyone, there are things that need adressed across the board: Kidney and his coaching team, the provincial setups, NIQs, Central contracts, the schools system, the club system, the players fitness and skill levels. Non of these are quite where they need to be right now.

Whats the common denomenator? The IRFU.

Bringing in new and better national coaches will help I believe but it won't address the fact that too many of our international rivals now have players that are bigger, stronger, faster, fitter, more skillfull and crucially younger than we do now, at national level, and unless we can get our talented youngsters up to speed quicker (and in greater volumes) than we currently do then that gap will widen I fear over the next 2 seasons leading up to 2015.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with that rodders, that the top teams have bigger, stronger, fast, and more skilful players than we do. I mean, it doesn't get much better than O'Brien, Ferris, Kearney, Healy, Bowe etc. A few youngsters who do look just as good as anyone else coming through also. However, you are right about the fact that the other international teams are bringing through players younger, which in turn gives them vital experience and they can actually learn how to beat quality defences. Our young players just don't get that kind of exposure and therefore their physicality and mentality is lacking.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I'm not sure I entirely agree with that rodders that everywhere else has bigger, stronger, fast, and more skilful players. I mean, it doesn't get much better than O'Brien, Ferris, Kearney, Healy, Bowe etc. .

Ah now I didn't say everywhere Rory, but if you look at the SH teams and then look at Wales, England and even with limited resources Scotland then thats enough to be concerned.

It depends on ambitions I suppose, I mean if you are happy with being a top 8 side and challenging for RWC QFs and beating the odd SH on tour then everything is hunky dory. Throw a few Heinos in and pints all round.

I'm not happy with that though, I want more Grandslams, to head into RWCs as contenders, to actually beat the ABs in my life time. No more 60-0 capitulations. That means looking at what can be improved across the board, not just Kidney.

Agree we have some brilliant players, and more on the horizon BUT there are areas where we are weak and I'm trying to point out the reasons why I think that is and sometimes that means accepting things we don't want to, especially when our provinces are doing well.

Sorry I didn't mean everywhere else either, not sure why I said that. I shall edit!

Its a two tier problem.

Firstly youngtsers dont get enough opportunity at club level because of a combination of NIQs and conjgested squads (in certain positional areas)

Secondly, again at test level where players like Zebo get one shot against NZ and thrown to the wayside.

I know teams like Ulster like to know they have players like Adam Darcy as backup for Payne. But truth is, if we were forced to play Nelson in a few games, we have no idea how much that could benefit him.

I have no proof. But I have a feeling that young players really push on when ever they are thrown to the wolves. And if you throw them in and they get torn up, well as harsh as it sounds, maybe that just means they arnt cut out for it.

Instead, ulster want to win (understandably), which in turn means Nelson will probably not get any significant gametime over the next three years, and is expected to one day be the future of Ireland having played AIL rugby...

Despite what I've said I don't think we are too far off, we do have a spine of top players. Our u20s team is doing very well.

To kick on though and really compete and beat the top sides regularly things need adressed.

The prop situation is a disaster and 2 of the best second rows in the country over the last few years have been NIQ(Hinds/thorn and Muller)..thats a 1/4 of the starting players, a 3rd if you exclude Connacht . Donacha Ryan and Tuohy at a push are the only locks in the country who are IQ and under 30 that you could argue are in the top 6 players in the country in their positions.

The best SH in the country is a South African and 2 of the other top 4 are 30+.

At inside centre the starting players at the 3 main provinces have been a Kiwi and two 32 year olds. The Kiwi goes out and another 30 something and another Kiwi comes in. One of the 32 year olds has a 2 year central contract. Is that progress? Not for Ireland.

Is all of that down to Kidney? No.

Are other things Kidneys fault? Yes for sure.

Rodders - sent your CV in yet for the next irish coach? I would support you all the way.