My Irish Squad for the Autumn

First topic message reminder :

This is obviously hypothetical as it is well in advance and there is some rugby to be played and of course players will go in and out of form and of course some may get injured.

I'd like something of a revamp compared to what has been going on in the Irish team for the past 12 months or so. I am picking this squad to play fast, off the deck rugby and I would want the team to be coached as such and the tactics to reflect this. For that reason there could be some big name absentees.

Am leaving out some of the injured lot who may not make it back in time.

Please bare in mind this is the training squad and thus some are in who won't play albeit to make up numbers or for experience
LH's: Healy-Court-McAllister
TH's: Ross-Fitzpatrick-Hagan
Hk's: Best-Strauss-Cronin
Locks: POC-Ryan-Tuohy-Toner-DOC
Backrow: Ferris-Ryan-POM-Henry-Wilson-Heaslip
Scrumhalves: Reddan-Murray-Marshall
Flyhalves: Sexton-Madigan-Jackson
Centres: Downey-BOD-Cave-McFadden
Back 3: Bowe-Earls-Gilroy-Zebo-Kearney-Trimble

20 forwards and 16 backs

Not considered due to injury: SOB, Kearney Jr, Fitzgerald, Ruddock, Jones

Reasonings:

1) McAllister I think could be a great shout and has looked promising when he gets gametime, better than Wilkinson anyways. Hopefully McGrath can start making an impression at Leinster.
2) Strauss in as he is just a league above Sherry
3) Hagan I think has more talent than Loughney I think and would like to see Macklin more often.
4) DOC is in there really to make up the numbers to be honest, not sure if Nagle is ready may benefit from playing while others are away anyways. Toner deservedly in the squad ahead of McCarthy.
5) Ryan in instead of Jennings. Jennings hasn't performed at International level so going with youth. Wilson I believe could get in there but will be behind Heaslip.
6) I'd have the 9's in that order and if there was a 4th spot would take Stringer.
7) Not taking ROG due to the desire to play attacking rugby which I don't feel he can do right from the off. I think Madigan is much better at that and could be an excellent player for Ireland in the future. Excellent impact sub too. Jackson in as well as one for the future.
8 ) Downey in to try and fill the void in terms of size in the backs and bring physicality at 12. McFadden hopefully will have overtaken Darcy at 12 and all will be well with the world. Earls could be understudy to BOD but I don't think he is a 13 (he is a born winger) it could well be Cave but he needs to up it as do others like EOM, Spence etc.
9) I decided to include both Zebo and Gilroy and would ahve included Kearney Jr too if he wasn't injured ahead of Trimble.

My 22:

Healy-Best-Ross
Ryan-POC
Ferris-Heaslip-POM
Reddan-Sexton
Downey-BOD
Earls-Kearney-Bowe

Strauss-Fitzpatrick-Tuohy/Toner-Henry-Marshall-Madigan-Gilroy

I think that is a good attacking team who are mobile and yet abrasive. Downey and Bowe give the backs a target man. The locks in particular are really well balanced and the backrow looks tasty too.

The aim would be to play off quick ball and try and keep the tempo high, attacking before the defence has time to fully re-set. Use dummy runners and bring in the likes of Earls and Bowe into the line to create mismatches. Ferris, healy and POM would be the primary carriers in the pack and the entire backrow are more than capable lineout options. Scrummaging-wise I'd expect even more of an improvement due to POC in there but not sure I'd want him touching the ball much in terms of keeping the tempo up.

The bench would be used to increase the temp again with possibly Madigan or Sexton going in at 12 and Strauss injecting some pace as well. Tuohy/Toner would come on for POC in the last 15 all things going to plan.

What do people think?
Would you include/leave out someone?
Is that a good split?
Are there any other young guys who could be in there?
Can McFadden get ahead of Darcy?
Is Fitzpatrick worth a bench spot ahead of Court?
Would others bring ROG?
Is Ryan (the flanker) too green?
Is Nagle worth a shot?
Is there anywhere where we are weak?
Is Downey going to get a chance?

PLEASE DON'T LET THIS TURN INTO A NIQ DEBATE RE: STRAUSS.

From a purely pragmatic point of view, a project player is no better than an NIQ if he isn't committed to playing for Ireland.

In all but name Jarod Payne is just another NIQ. Brilliant for Ulster, not so good for Ireland (ignoring the impact he'll have on the younger players). Its still 6* NIEs in the Ulster XV for most big games.

Players who qualify through residency or grandparents I have no issue with if they are committed and good enough. Thats another debate though.

* Edit: Sorry 5 this season but the point stands.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The project players do not sit well with me, if I am being totally honest. I am not a fan. The suggestions that Payne should be the Ulster and possibly future irish 13 does not sit well with me when we have Cave, Spence and Farrell already as options.

Thats the point though. Project or granny players will only be used where there is a lack of decent players. Cave and Spence will be used before any foreigners because they are class. With Kidney at the helm they might get overlooked for Munster and Leinster players though. Cant understand how either of them havent featured more for Ireland.

These forums are as addictive as crack. Must do some work.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The project players do not sit well with me, if I am being totally honest. I am not a fan. The suggestions that Payne should be the Ulster and possibly future irish 13 does not sit well with me when we have Cave, Spence and Farrell already as options.

Even if he is miles better than them? what if in two years time, Payne was the best IQ 13 option, would you really say no and choose a weaker team than you are allowed?

I also don't like the exclusive mentality. If a man choosesto up root and come to our country, pay taxes, do his job well, plays with his heart for his club and their fans, and settles down, and socialises and integrates with society. I don't see how he is any less worthy of a green shirt than someone else who happened to pop out from between their mums legs in this geographical area.

Regarding the project players - I find it embarrassing actually, if these guys are considered IQ in a few years. The reaction of biltong when he sees his SA youth heading overseas as potential future irish players says it all really. He is totally justified to feel that way too. I find that quite embarrassing that we would steal players from the likes of SA to potentially play for Ireland because we aren't good enough. Also, when players like Strauss aren't good enough for SA, we allow them the chance to play here. It just doesn't sit well with me.

clivemcl wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The project players do not sit well with me, if I am being totally honest. I am not a fan. The suggestions that Payne should be the Ulster and possibly future irish 13 does not sit well with me when we have Cave, Spence and Farrell already as options.

Even if he is miles better than them? what if in two years time, Payne was the best IQ 13 option, would you really say no and choose a weaker team than you are allowed?

I also don't like the exclusive mentality. If a man choosesto up root and come to our country, pay taxes, do his job well, plays with his heart for his club and their fans, and settles down, and socialises and integrates with society. I don't see how he is any less worthy of a green shirt than someone else who happened to pop out from between their mums legs in this geographical area.

I don't think he is miles better than them though. He is probably a better player, but the gap in quality won't be enough that we will have a weaker team. It is a team game anyway. If we were desperate for a 13 I might possibly be okay with it but we aren't. How do you think the likes of Cave, Spence, O'Malley etc would feel if that was the case? It would not go down well.

clivemcl wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The project players do not sit well with me, if I am being totally honest. I am not a fan. The suggestions that Payne should be the Ulster and possibly future irish 13 does not sit well with me when we have Cave, Spence and Farrell already as options.

Even if he is miles better than them? what if in two years time, Payne was the best IQ 13 option, would you really say no and choose a weaker team than you are allowed?

I also don't like the exclusive mentality. If a man choosesto up root and come to our country, pay taxes, do his job well, plays with his heart for his club and their fans, and settles down, and socialises and integrates with society. I don't see how he is any less worthy of a green shirt than someone else who happened to pop out from between their mums legs in this geographical area.

This mentality can only explain why Boss gets picked behind the likes of O'Leary and Murray etc.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Regarding the project players - I find it embarrassing actually

I don't. The players have their own free wills and there are rules in place.

What I don't agree with is the contractual set up...that the players are signed on the basis that they cannot play for their country for that period of contract. That is wrong imo.

If a player makes Ireland his home out of choice and is good enough for our team then I have no issue with their selection.

Until they qualify they are NIQs though and should be seen that way.

Seems to me that Cave is being written off a bit unfairly. I'd like to see him given a start in the game against Argentina (or Scotland or Italy during the 6N).

If he performs this season for Ulster as he did the last, he warrants a more substantial try-out than 10 minutes versus the ABs when the game is already lost.


Also, references to "stealing" players are a bit silly. It absolves them of any responsibility in the process. CJ Stander wants cash more than to play for SA. There we go.

"If a player makes Ireland his home out of choice and is good enough for our team then I have no issue with their selection"

That is residency. I have no problems with that.

I think the "Project Player" system is very different and if left unchecked could crush rugby.

Would you have an issue if a Japanese billionaire turned up and said to the Baby Blacks "I'll give each of you $3 million to come and live in Japan on the strict agreement that you will represent Japan then."

Because thats only a slight exaggeration of what the IRFU are doing.

It is embarassing.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The project players do not sit well with me, if I am being totally honest. I am not a fan. The suggestions that Payne should be the Ulster and possibly future irish 13 does not sit well with me when we have Cave, Spence and Farrell already as options.

Even if he is miles better than them? what if in two years time, Payne was the best IQ 13 option, would you really say no and choose a weaker team than you are allowed?

I also don't like the exclusive mentality. If a man choosesto up root and come to our country, pay taxes, do his job well, plays with his heart for his club and their fans, and settles down, and socialises and integrates with society. I don't see how he is any less worthy of a green shirt than someone else who happened to pop out from between their mums legs in this geographical area.

I don't think he is miles better than them though. He is probably a better player, but the gap in quality won't be enough that we will have a weaker team. It is a team game anyway. If we were desperate for a 13 I might possibly be okay with it but we aren't. How do you think the likes of Cave, Spence, O'Malley etc would feel if that was the case? It would not go down well.

The same way gilroy/trimble would feel about the signing of bowe? A players not supposed to argue about rules, they are supposed to try and be the best.

There was concern that Payne might not qualify as project because many tipped him to get an all Black squad call up with the injuries to Dagg and Muliaina before the RWC. You think Cave or Spence would have been anywhere near that close to an All Blacks squad?

I'd like to know, what attributes do you get with being brought up in Ireland compared with moving here when you are older? I get what you are saying, for me it really depends on the feeling I get from the project player, I would want to know their passion is up there with the rest of them.

I wouldnt say no, never.

I agree with a lot that has been said here over the last page or so:

Kidney as a head coach has done very poorly as we can see our potential is huge (last minute loss to the AB's in NZ) but then the next week we fall to pieces. People say he didn't fall off the tackles and throw the bad passes but the systems make it harder to make those tackles and harder to find those passes. Selection is poor too at times the first test compared to the second for instance and how he ran away from the experiement. How some guys can get dropped easily and some find it impossible to get dropped.

We are the worst coached team in the top 8 IMO.

I agree with the Connacht thing too, if Munster/Ulster/Leinster were to sacrifice some squad depth (a huge sacrifice it must be said, absolutley massive) then some guys would be playing much more rugby and we'd be able to keep guys like Gaston, Whitten, TOL, and others in Ireland as instead of being 3rd choice they may be 2nd.
Some NIQ's help some don't but we do make excuses for some of them.

Imagine this Connacht team

McAllister/Wilkinson-Cronin-Fitzpatrick
DOC/Swift-McCarthy
Ryan/Ruddock-Muldoon-Faloon
TOL/Marshall/Boss-Humphreys
Spence-O'Malley/Griffin
Gilroy-Duffy-Conway/Carr

Now imagine hwo good that could be for Ireland to have guys going up against each other like that. Albeit harder for the other 3 provinces than it has been.

Finally I'd like to agree with Rodders who mentioned POC on the decline, I think he has been majorally unlucky with injuries but he has held up so well physically and mentally I might add my issue is he is one of the players who would definitely make our starting XV but could find it exceptionally difficult to play open running rugby (that style), he may have to alter his game and can he at his age?

But at the same time, these players who might eventually represent Ireland were developed as rugby players for another country, then we scoop them up into our provincial teams. To me that looks like stealing. Offering a massive sum of money that their own country can't match, in order to prevent them from playing for their country is also rather poor IMO.

How on earth would it be the same way that Trimble/Gilroy feel about Bowe signing? Bowe is irish.

red_stag wrote:"If a player makes Ireland his home out of choice and is good enough for our team then I have no issue with their selection"

That is residency. I have no problems with that.

I think the "Project Player" system is very different and if left unchecked could crush rugby.

Would you have an issue if a Japanese billionaire turned up and said to the Baby Blacks "I'll give each of you $3 million to come and live in Japan on the strict agreement that you will represent Japan then."

Because thats only a slight exaggeration of what the IRFU are doing.

It is embarassing.

Stag summed it up better than I ever could.

red_stag wrote:"If a player makes Ireland his home out of choice and is good enough for our team then I have no issue with their selection"

That is residency. I have no problems with that.

I think the "Project Player" system is very different and if left unchecked could crush rugby.

Would you have an issue if a Japanese billionaire turned up and said to the Baby Blacks "I'll give each of you $3 million to come and live in Japan on the strict agreement that you will represent Japan then."

Because thats only a slight exaggeration of what the IRFU are doing.

It is embarassing.

Well now stag its a bit more than a slight exaggeration....

You are talking about 4 players (or is it 3 at Connacht?..thus 7) per every 3 year period. Over a 10 year period there would only be 12 players achieve qualification.

I don't agree with it but that isn't going to destroy Irish rugby or indeed SH rugby either.

Yes but Rodders my point is that if we start getting capping the likes of Jared Payne, Quinn Roux, Peter Borlase, CJ Stander, Rodney Ah You, Richard Strauss and succeeding with it then why won't such a scenario as I outline take place.

The principle is exactly the same.

If a player were to move to Ireland as a normal NIQ, not paid by IRFU or anything, and then after 3 years or so said that he wanted to play for us then yes no problem.

But this. No I feel this is the makings of something much more sinister.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:How on earth would it be the same way that Trimble/Gilroy feel about Bowe signing? Bowe is irish.

The sentence after that should have explained rory. As a player, your only job is to be the best. You cant gurn about a player becoming Irish eligible any more than you can gurn about your club signing someone else. No time for boo hoo, you just have to up your game or miss out. thats rugby.

Also a very interesting point you made there Pete about the provinces helping each other rather than each of us focusing on signings. Just think about the development of our players if that were to happen.

Leinster are weak at second row. Give them Tuohy, Stevenson or Hendy and each of those guys end up getting a ton of game time. Hendy would get either starting or bench time at the age of 20.

Ulster are weak at half back and back row. We take McGrath, Marmion, even Boss back, and the door will be open for one of those young 9s. Keatley as a 10. In the back row we need depth for Ferris, so someone like Dominic Ryan, or even Auva'a would be beneficial.

Munster are weak in the front row. They take Furlong, Macklin, McAllister, McGrath, Fitzpatrick.. any of these players and again our props are getting vital game time.

Connacht need a lot of depth overall. Certain players would do well helping the cause for Connacht, especially those who are sitting a fair bit down the pecking order right now (Ruddock, Macken, Cochrane).

Our provinces may suffer slightly as a result, but our young players would be getting more development than ever before. That makes my mouth water a lot more than any NIQ signing does.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Finally I'd like to agree with Rodders who mentioned POC on the decline

I think the POC example has been lifted out of context a bit. The point is we have a number of key players not able to produce the required level of consistancy because of their age profile...they get away with it in Europe but not at International level, where the standard is higher generally and the run of fixtures more intense. Its an issue for some of the younger players who don't start regularly at HEC level too. The individuals who fall into this criteria can be debated.

I categorically believe POC is one of the best locks in world rugby and if fit should start. There is a general issue though. POCs injury profile cannot be ignored though.

red_stag wrote:Yes but Rodders my point is that if we start getting capping the likes of Jared Payne, Quinn Roux, Peter Borlase, CJ Stander, Rodney Ah You, Richard Strauss and succeeding with it then why won't such a scenario as I outline take place.

The principle is exactly the same.

If a player were to move to Ireland as a normal NIQ, not paid by IRFU or anything, and then after 3 years or so said that he wanted to play for us then yes no problem.

But this. No I feel this is the makings of something much more sinister.

I agree totally with the bolded part, we are saying the same thing just expressing it differently.

I want the system changed, I just maybe don't agree with the scale of the problem but I'm not supporting it.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also a very interesting point you made there Pete about the provinces helping each other rather than each of us focusing on signings. Just think about the development of our players if that were to happen.

Sorry who? He was reinforcing my prior comment. And its a point I've made nmerous times. I even have suggested that the IRFU could add something to the contract for players making an inter-provincial move that benefits the national side, like a version of a central contract.

..Pete. He made a good point, I was just expanding on it.

rodders wrote:

red_stag wrote:Yes but Rodders my point is that if we start getting capping the likes of Jared Payne, Quinn Roux, Peter Borlase, CJ Stander, Rodney Ah You, Richard Strauss and succeeding with it then why won't such a scenario as I outline take place.

The principle is exactly the same.

If a player were to move to Ireland as a normal NIQ, not paid by IRFU or anything, and then after 3 years or so said that he wanted to play for us then yes no problem.

But this. No I feel this is the makings of something much more sinister.

I agree totally with the bolded part, we are saying the same thing just expressing it differently.

I want the system changed, I just maybe don't agree with the scale of the problem but I'm not supporting it.

Hey, here, now thats something I wasnt aware of? Does IRFU pay projects??

Clive - yes Project Players are employed by the IRFU. Its crazy.

"I'm going to Ireland as a project player and that basically means you go through the IRFU" - Peter Borlase 2010

I like your idea regarding incentives to help out provinces.

Example Jack McGrath could be encouraged to move to Munster or Connacht who need tightheads. Leinster have Mike Ross and Jamie Hagan.

The IRFU pays for most things clive. The money from the national side gets pumped into the provinces.

They fund the academies, subsidise or pay the wages of the NIQs and pay the central contracts.

red_stag wrote:Clive - yes Project Players are employed by the IRFU. Its crazy.

"I'm going to Ireland as a project player and that basically means you go through the IRFU" - Peter Borlase 2010

I like your idea regarding incentives to help out provinces.

Example Jack McGrath could be encouraged to move to Munster or Connacht who need tightheads. Leinster have Mike Ross and Jamie Hagan.

Jack mcgrath is a loosehead and leinster will need to hang onto him because vdm is on his last season at leinster. A better option would be if furlong who is a tighthead went to munster.

Yes, exaclty. Thanks Leinsterfan.

(PS we could do with a loosehead too)

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also a very interesting point you made there Pete about the provinces helping each other rather than each of us focusing on signings. Just think about the development of our players if that were to happen.

Leinster are weak at second row. Give them Tuohy, Stevenson or Hendy and each of those guys end up getting a ton of game time. Hendy would get either starting or bench time at the age of 20.

Ulster are weak at half back and back row. We take McGrath, Marmion, even Boss back, and the door will be open for one of those young 9s. Keatley as a 10. In the back row we need depth for Ferris, so someone like Dominic Ryan, or even Auva'a would be beneficial.

Munster are weak in the front row. They take Furlong, Macklin, McAllister, McGrath, Fitzpatrick.. any of these players and again our props are getting vital game time.

Connacht need a lot of depth overall. Certain players would do well helping the cause for Connacht, especially those who are sitting a fair bit down the pecking order right now (Ruddock, Macken, Cochrane).

Our provinces may suffer slightly as a result, but our young players would be getting more development than ever before. That makes my mouth water a lot more than any NIQ signing does.

There's a host of possible swaps that could be made here are but a few and I'm sure the benefits would be obvious:

Henderson to Leinster
Dominic Ryan to Ulster/Munster
Boss to Connacht
Keatley to Connacht
Spence to Leinster/Munster/Connacht
Stringer to Connacht
Avuv'a to Munster/Ulster
Hurley to Connacht

These are just some of the ones that could work and would actually block some of the NIQ's and render them less necessary. If Fitzpatrick went to Connacht instead of White to play tighthead then Fitzpatrick is getting constant game time, ulster still have Afoa and Macklin gets more of a chance to grow

Ian Nagle to Leinster could be another.
Sean Henry to Connacht.

Who is Sean Henry?

Ulster have Afoa, Fitz and Macklin at 3. Fitz and Macklin need consistent game time, but one of them won't get it. Munster need a tighthead. Why can't the IRFU see this sort of thing?

If IRFU got involved in this kind of thing, we wouldnt have just signed Nick Williams. (or Wannenberg before that).

Sean Henry is a young Munster hooker.

He has lots of B&I Cup experience and 5 Rabo league appearances. We have Damien Varley and Mike Sherry.

clivemcl wrote:If IRFU got involved in this kind of thing, we wouldnt have just signed Nick Williams. (or Wannenberg before that).

Clive I think thats the whole point.

rodders have you been kidnapped and brainwashed

I cannot see how Joel Schimdt, Brian McLaughlin, Tony McGahan and Eric Elwood can be blamed at all for Irelands poor performances. Their duty is to put the best structures in place at their provinces and pick what they see as being their best players. If your nit picking you could look at their refusal to throw in Irish tight heads for the big games but their brief is to win games.

I will reserve judgement on the Irish outside backs at international level until we get a proper attack/backs coach in. Drico is in his later years but does the business for Leinster against some serious centre partnerships (Rougerie,Fofana to name one). Yes he may not roast people on the outside anymore but his game has evolved. Even Darcy has had a solid year for Leinster. If we persist in playing this slow paced game and giving it to static backs to bash it up the middle we might as well turn SOB into a 12. We do not have a Jason Roberts or Sonny Bill Williams. Picking Murray over Reddan is a clear sign that we want to play a slower game and bash around the fringes. Murray is a gutsy competitor and a game lad who with coaching will become a good player but as of now his service is laborious. Even for the try in the 2nd test it was maddening to watch the build up. Leinster would have scored it 10 phases earlier.

If you drop off your intensity in the HC you are out see you later. If 2 teams from every group qualified you may have a point. To finish as best runner up you need bonus points which requires maximum effort, accurate attacking and commitment to attack for a full 80 minutes. Its a great system and rewards accurate attacking rugby. It is the polar opposite to the 6 nations when Ireland actually play well get a 10 point lead then actively shut up shop.

Most players you mentioned are past their best and need to be phased out as we have alternatives. Il give POC and Drico a stay of exectution for another season or so. I have no doubt all will be in the squad for the internationals. You need proven performers for the mighty Springboks and for the Argentinian pack. Yawn Yawn. Cant risk Madigan against Fiji etc etc

There is plenty of competition at the provinces. From a Leinster perspective their has been savage competition for the last 4 years and it keeps everyone on their toes. Darcy kept his place because he did well in an innovative attacking system that didnt require him to take the ball static and steam roll his opposite number. If he played crap for 12 games in a row as he did for Ireland he would be dropped.

3 NIQ's would be fine for me.

Again Kidney has us playing a plodding defensive game in which he expects us to steamroll teams and bludgeon them into submission at walking pace. Lots of pods of forwards static to draw defenses in. I concede even if we played a "Leinster" style attacking offloading game we would not be able to live with the all blacks at the back end of our gruelling season when they are fresh. The player were out on their feet in 3rd test and missed tackles galore. However i guarantee if we played a more suitable modern style of rugby we would have a far better win/loss ratio over the last 2 years

The Autumn Internationals are an ideal chance to freshen things up. However i am not excited in the slightest about them and will not be attending if the ticket prices are daft. A new attack coach may whet my appetite but i will believe it when i see it.

Of course we have some real talent in Ireland with the exception of the number 3 jersey but we are so slow to use it and always think of an excuse to hold back a player and try new things. If its broke dont fix it it will sort itself out somehow i hope. The Kidney mantra of the last year.

red_stag wrote:

clivemcl wrote:If IRFU got involved in this kind of thing, we wouldnt have just signed Nick Williams. (or Wannenberg before that).

Clive I think thats the whole point.

Of course its the whole point. I made the initial point. I know what the point is. If everyones in the game of suggesting possible switches, why can I not throw out an example of how the switches could have reduced NIQs? Yous are always on about us having too many. i'm saying, in the instance of backrow, we didnt have much option.

No bother Clive. I thought you were saying it was a bad thing that Ulster wouldn't have had Wannenburg or Nick Williams.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:But at the same time, these players who might eventually represent Ireland were developed as rugby players for another country, then we scoop them up into our provincial teams. To me that looks like stealing. Offering a massive sum of money that their own country can't match, in order to prevent them from playing for their country is also rather poor IMO.

The rules are the same for all countries. Irish project players dont get offered crazy money that their own country cant match. They are generally players that for whatever reason dont feel they will ever get picked for their own nation.

dublin_dave wrote:rodders have you been kidnapped and brainwashed

I cannot see how Joel Schimdt, Brian McLaughlin, Tony McGahan and Eric Elwood can be blamed at all for Irelands poor performances.

I've been kidnapped by Sin E!

No seriously I'm not saying they are to blame. Agreed their responsibility is to use the best resources they have available to win in the competitions there are in. Absolutely. That has to be the case.

But the IRFU have a big say in what resources they have and how they use them. The buck stops with them.

There is a collective responsibility across all levels from grassroots up to Kidney and there are things going on that aren't assisting the national side. That is all I am saying.

The players too need to look at themselves.

Some people think a new backs coach will turn things on their head and we'll be scoring tries like its 1999... sorry but that is a tad delusional.... better coaching will help a lot but there's a much bigger picture that needs to be looked at.

BOD and D'arcy aren't as good as they were and the alternatives aren't even as good as they are now. The backup for Bowe (and perhaps even Fitzgerald) isn't as good as we thought... so all of a sudden our backline is looking not so great.

In terms of the pack the fact is that the depth isn't great...it'll be better for this tour... but the front row options are thread bare, the next Paul O'Connell/Mal O'Kelly/Paddy Johns/Jeremy Davidson isn't yet on the horizon and the fact that the provincial packs have been bolstered heavily by top quality Boks and Kiwis has sort of been dismissed.

There's problems at the top....but theres problems at the middle and bottom too.

But its not that bad. The U20s are going well and there are good players at the provinces. The systems need to be tilted to get these guys on the field.

GunsGerms wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:But at the same time, these players who might eventually represent Ireland were developed as rugby players for another country, then we scoop them up into our provincial teams. To me that looks like stealing. Offering a massive sum of money that their own country can't match, in order to prevent them from playing for their country is also rather poor IMO.

The rules are the same for all countries. Irish project players dont get offered crazy money that their own country cant match. They are generally players that for whatever reason dont feel they will ever get picked for their own nation.

Actually, CJ Stander was apparently offered a contract that his club/country couldn't possibly match. They wanted to keep him, Meyer already said that he is part of a core group of young players who will be in the springboks very soon.

Rodders - I'm not sure a lot of that is entirely true. We do have options that might be better than D'Arcy - BOD right now, but we all know they will never get the chance until the last possible second. The longer we wait, the further behind we will be, and the longer their development stalls. There have been young players over the past few years that have shown the same promise as BOD/Bowe/etc when they were young. The difference is BOD was given a shot at a young age.

I do not accept that the likes of Gilroy hasn't shown at least the same amount of potential that Bowe ever has.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:But at the same time, these players who might eventually represent Ireland were developed as rugby players for another country, then we scoop them up into our provincial teams. To me that looks like stealing. Offering a massive sum of money that their own country can't match, in order to prevent them from playing for their country is also rather poor IMO.

The rules are the same for all countries. Irish project players dont get offered crazy money that their own country cant match. They are generally players that for whatever reason dont feel they will ever get picked for their own nation.

Actually, CJ Stander was apparently offered a contract that his club/country couldn't possibly match. They wanted to keep him, Meyer already said that he is part of a core group of young players who will be in the springboks very soon.

Never heard of him. In any case this it seems to me that this is an exception rather than the rule.

The Bulls player? He is only 22 and Munster have signed him.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The Bulls player? He is only 22 and Munster have signed him.

Are you saying that there is a clause in his contract that he cannot represent SA in the future?

Well he is a project player, so he can't represent them as long as he is at Munster. He would have probably been capped this season.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well he is a project player, so he can't represent them as long as he is at Munster. He would have probably been capped this season.

Why cant he represent SA while he is at Munster? Is it becuase SA have a policy not to select foreign based players or a term of his Munster contract is that he cannot play for SA even during the international window?

Unless it specifically states in his contract that he cannot play for SA I dont see what the problem is. Project player just means he is uncapped it doesnt mean he cant head back to SA if he wants and play for SA.

Nope, sure SA are playing Pienaar and at the world cup they played Muller. The project players aren't allowed to represent their country while playing for the provinces though, I thought that was the whole point. That would surely be on his contract.

He is a project player but it's also important to note he only has a 2 year deal, chances of him actually playing for Ireland are pretty slim I'd say.

Guns SA don't have a policy of not selecting foreign based players.

Project players can't represent another country. That is why they are projects.