My Irish Squad for the Autumn

First topic message reminder :

This is obviously hypothetical as it is well in advance and there is some rugby to be played and of course players will go in and out of form and of course some may get injured.

I'd like something of a revamp compared to what has been going on in the Irish team for the past 12 months or so. I am picking this squad to play fast, off the deck rugby and I would want the team to be coached as such and the tactics to reflect this. For that reason there could be some big name absentees.

Am leaving out some of the injured lot who may not make it back in time.

Please bare in mind this is the training squad and thus some are in who won't play albeit to make up numbers or for experience
LH's: Healy-Court-McAllister
TH's: Ross-Fitzpatrick-Hagan
Hk's: Best-Strauss-Cronin
Locks: POC-Ryan-Tuohy-Toner-DOC
Backrow: Ferris-Ryan-POM-Henry-Wilson-Heaslip
Scrumhalves: Reddan-Murray-Marshall
Flyhalves: Sexton-Madigan-Jackson
Centres: Downey-BOD-Cave-McFadden
Back 3: Bowe-Earls-Gilroy-Zebo-Kearney-Trimble

20 forwards and 16 backs

Not considered due to injury: SOB, Kearney Jr, Fitzgerald, Ruddock, Jones

Reasonings:

1) McAllister I think could be a great shout and has looked promising when he gets gametime, better than Wilkinson anyways. Hopefully McGrath can start making an impression at Leinster.
2) Strauss in as he is just a league above Sherry
3) Hagan I think has more talent than Loughney I think and would like to see Macklin more often.
4) DOC is in there really to make up the numbers to be honest, not sure if Nagle is ready may benefit from playing while others are away anyways. Toner deservedly in the squad ahead of McCarthy.
5) Ryan in instead of Jennings. Jennings hasn't performed at International level so going with youth. Wilson I believe could get in there but will be behind Heaslip.
6) I'd have the 9's in that order and if there was a 4th spot would take Stringer.
7) Not taking ROG due to the desire to play attacking rugby which I don't feel he can do right from the off. I think Madigan is much better at that and could be an excellent player for Ireland in the future. Excellent impact sub too. Jackson in as well as one for the future.
8 ) Downey in to try and fill the void in terms of size in the backs and bring physicality at 12. McFadden hopefully will have overtaken Darcy at 12 and all will be well with the world. Earls could be understudy to BOD but I don't think he is a 13 (he is a born winger) it could well be Cave but he needs to up it as do others like EOM, Spence etc.
9) I decided to include both Zebo and Gilroy and would ahve included Kearney Jr too if he wasn't injured ahead of Trimble.

My 22:

Healy-Best-Ross
Ryan-POC
Ferris-Heaslip-POM
Reddan-Sexton
Downey-BOD
Earls-Kearney-Bowe

Strauss-Fitzpatrick-Tuohy/Toner-Henry-Marshall-Madigan-Gilroy

I think that is a good attacking team who are mobile and yet abrasive. Downey and Bowe give the backs a target man. The locks in particular are really well balanced and the backrow looks tasty too.

The aim would be to play off quick ball and try and keep the tempo high, attacking before the defence has time to fully re-set. Use dummy runners and bring in the likes of Earls and Bowe into the line to create mismatches. Ferris, healy and POM would be the primary carriers in the pack and the entire backrow are more than capable lineout options. Scrummaging-wise I'd expect even more of an improvement due to POC in there but not sure I'd want him touching the ball much in terms of keeping the tempo up.

The bench would be used to increase the temp again with possibly Madigan or Sexton going in at 12 and Strauss injecting some pace as well. Tuohy/Toner would come on for POC in the last 15 all things going to plan.

What do people think?
Would you include/leave out someone?
Is that a good split?
Are there any other young guys who could be in there?
Can McFadden get ahead of Darcy?
Is Fitzpatrick worth a bench spot ahead of Court?
Would others bring ROG?
Is Ryan (the flanker) too green?
Is Nagle worth a shot?
Is there anywhere where we are weak?
Is Downey going to get a chance?

PLEASE DON'T LET THIS TURN INTO A NIQ DEBATE RE: STRAUSS.

I think Ireland's problems are principally in the backs.

A halfback who can clear the ball quickly and run at the line to ask questions of the defence.

A centre partnership. A crash test dummy is not necessary on attack but someone who can provide reliable defence is very much needed. D'Arcy and BOD have that rock solid defence partnership. Unfortunately they offer very little in the way as an attacking unit. BOD invariably comes up with individual skill but that is not enough at test level. You need a unit who has an understanding on defence as well as attack. If you don't have that, which appears to be the case, then you need to choose players who could potentially have that partnership. From an outsider's perspective, it's sad to see someone like Fitzgerald been moved around the park from IC to wing to fullback. A little more faith placed in him when he was at IC and the problem wouldn't be much of a one now or at least not as bad as finding a 12 as well as a 13.

Bowe coming back will alleviate the wing problem but in the meantime nothing looks settled there either. For all the talk of replacing the so-called golden generation, only the centres seem to be affected by the possibility of retirements. So why the areas where Ireland seemed to be alright for depth?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think it would be great to be able to play the fluid offloading slick handling game and I think we are fully capable of it but we need:

1) quicker ball
2) support runners
3) dummy runners
4) the whole team to know their role inside out

We don't do any of those things and add in the lack of physicality to that and we are going nowhere. I think we need to have a target in the backs and while Bowe, Fitz, Gilroy are strong guys who can really explode through the line, if the line is set are these guys going to make it over the advantage line carrying 2 defenders? I don't think so.

I get that guys like Cave, Wallace and Darcy and others are holding back the likes of Spence, Marshall, McFadden, EOM, JJ et al but they are the best guys at this particular time for their provinces. The young lads I think could be great but they need week in week out games playing against the best opposition to see if they can hack it.

How long before Wallace, Cave, BOD, Darcy all retire? Cave has a while but the other 3 could be at the end of this season.

Pete, some facts here about Cave.

Cave is only 25
Cave is not holding anyone back!
Cave will probably look to retire in about 8 or 9 years

Well you could say he is holding back Spence.

Tommy Bowe is the answer at 13. You know it, I know it, the world knows it..... even those who don't know it know it.

If everyone in the Ulster 3/4 line moved in a position then the world would be a better place .

I'd agree with Pete and have been saying it for a while. As a nation we don't have the build to play the game we're trying to play now we are suited to playing a game akin to Leinster, we have decent speed going throughout the pack and backs and thrive on quick all we have backs that can damage guys if they get good ball and show some creativity.

Rava I am fully aware what age Cave is but thanks
Personally I don't think he is going to make it as an international in the top class sense and I don't think he will even get that close. I like him but that is what my gut is saying. If Spence can improve his distribution, he could be the answer as he has good defence and has the physical attributes needed.

For that reason, while Cave is currently better than Spence, I feel from an Irish perspective that it would be better for Spence to be starting 13 for Ulster.

I actually agree that Bowe could make an excellent 13 myself and I hope but don't expect to see him there.

Thomond-
I don't think any of our crash guys are ever going to be big enough or good enough to play that game plan so I think quick ball should be priority number 1 (it should be anyway) we are really bad at this. Sexton loves playing quickly as it means he can attack the line against an unorganised defence and look for the holes for his runners.

That is the way I want Ireland to play however I don't think Kidney is capable of coaching a team to play that way. He has become content with the 09 template of "kicker-lineout-breakdown-defence" and with good reason considering his success but when the rules changed I think it really affected how effective a coach he is. After the Irish job I don't see him getting anything near as good a coaching role again

Just as an aside:

My 23 vs S.Africa:[/b]

Healy-Best-Ross (1st choice front row)
Ryan-POC (bulk and athleticism)
Ferris-Heaslip-POM (No SOB so POM in at 7)
Reddan-Sexton (quick ball, running rugby, halfbacks)
Downey-BOD (try Downey as a go forward man see how it works)
Earls-Kearney-Bowe (attacking back 3)

Strauss-Fitzpatrick-Court-Tuohy-Henry-Marshall-Madigan-Gilroy
(lots of impact on bench to be used around 60mins)

My 23 vs Argentina if we beat S.Africa:

Healy-Strauss-Fitzpatrick (try out Fitzpatrick & Strauss against good scrummagers)
Ryan-Tuohy (test this combination again)
Ferris-Henry-POM (try Henry at
Reddan-Sexton
McFadden-BOD (Leinster partnership see if that works better than Downey)
Earls-Kearney-Gilroy (see how Gilroy gets on)

Cronin-McAllister-Ross-POC-Ryan-Murray-Madigan-Downey
(Again lots of impact while still giving guys a go)

My 23 vs Fiji:

McAllister-Cronin-Fitzpatrick (experimental frontrow, game time for Cronin&Fitzp)
Tuohy-Toner (Toner deserves game time)
Ryan-Wilson-Henry (very experimental backrow)
Marshall-Madigan (Madigan to get a start and I'd like if he kicked)
McFadden-Cave (Cave needs to bounce back internationally)
Zebo-Conway-Gilroy (young back 3 plenty of pace)

Strauss-Court-Hagan-Ryan-Heaslip-Reddan-Jackson-Earls

We would benefit more by playing a quick game as you say, with Deccie there and nnot really havign a backs coach it wont happen. Ireland are suited to a qucik ball, quick backplay type game. We can occasionally match the big guys like SA in the physicality stakes but won't sustain it for that long.

Pete, in terms of trying new players, I strongly believe single games are barely better than none. You get picked, and then dropped leaves you feeling deflated, wondering what you did wrong, over analysing your performance, being hard on yourself or resentful.

If we are going to try any of zebo / gilroy / downey / cave / madigan, they should get two games if not all three.

You need time to become accustomed to the higher level and with those around you. One game doesnt tell us anything IMO. If theres as big a jump in standard as everyone says there is, then how to we expect these guys to manage the jump in one game?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:After the Irish job I don't see him getting anything near as good a coaching role again

I can see him going back teaching and chasing that public sector pension!!

Yous are missing the point.

The elephant in the room.

There's far too many overseas players at the provinces and too many aging players with IRFU contracts.

Time to be bold and do what the Welsh did and clear out the dead wood , slash the provincial budgets, 3 NIQs max, maximum 1 year contracts to over 30's players, restrict the number of games NIQs can play.

Youth and Irish is the ticket across all levels. Bring the U20s guys through and build for the 2019 RWC.

Time to forget about the Heino and think big

Downey should not be considered until we see what he is like at Munster. He is an average player from what I have seen, yet we want to play him so that we have a poor man's Roberts type player at 12. We don't even need that either.

If we do want a big 12 who actually looks to be pretty clever as well, we should look at either Farrell or Whitten.

We really do need a poor man's roberts if we continue to play without an attack coach. If we just signed a good attack coach, none of these problems would exist.

Well, I don't personally think that will make a difference. Do you think Downey will be the catalyst that allows us to start beating teams? I certainly don't. We are far too static in general.

Nobody, not even Roberts, can break the line when they are taking the ball as static as we are currently. Defences are just too good these days to be as slow as we are. They immediately realign themselves while we seem to take 10 minutes thinking about how to break the defence.

If you see any of the best ball carriers in today's game, they are good because they take the ball at pace and run absolutely fantastic lines. Usually a playmaker will be able to create a gap for them to hit. In the tight exchanges when needed these carriers can wriggle a metre or so forward, but that is all we seem to use our carriers for. They get no chances to make any impact.

BOD and D'arcy aren't going to find an extra yard of pace and Earls, Cave and McFadden aren't going to become world beaters just because we sign a new attack coach.

We aren't making best use of our players but the fact is across a number of positions the options aren't that great.

There simply aren't many Irish 3/4s who teams fear with the ball in their hands right now.

Getting Fitzgerald fit is key I think because he's one of the few players, along with Sexton, Bowe, O'Driscoll and Kearney who can actually create opportunities with the ball.

Comparing Downey to Roberts is like comparing McFadden to Conrad Smith. They are leagues apart. Downey is an average player, Roberts is world class.

I'm really starting to think Fitz should really be our future 13. However he might be too injury prone. How long is he out?

rodders wrote:Comparing Downey to Roberts is like comparing McFadden to Conrad Smith. They are leagues apart. Downey is an average player, Roberts is world class.

Roberts is pretty one dimensional, but he is very good at what he does and Wales use him correctly. Again though, the reason Roberts is so good is because he hits the line like a train. When have we seen any irish player do that?

SOB for Leinster and a few times for Ireland. Rodders, while we tend to overrate our players I thin kyou're being a bit too pessimistic. Earls certainly has the potential to be a very solid players in any back position. Winger or full back more than likely.

That was last season though Thomond, he hasn't had nearly as many chances recently. SOB hasn't been doing that because every time he seems to get the ball he is standing still. However, that really bugs me because we do have some of the best ball carriers around in Ferris, Heaslip and O'Brien. None of them have been all that effective with ball in hand for Ireland though, in recent times at least.

I don't think roberts is one dimensional, he plays a certain game for Wales that is extremely effective.

For the Lions he showed how good a footballer he is alongside O'Driscoll. His hands are very good and hes clever too.

People confuse big powerful 3/4s with being 1 dimensional and limited, SBW and Nonu are too of the most skillfull players around and Roberts/Davies are no dummies either.

Sticking a big lump with limited ability in is not the answer. I'd have Trimble, Spence or Bowe in midfield ahead of Downey any day. They need to be playing there at provincial level though.

And like I said if you pick anyone who is a world class ball carrier and give them the ball standing still, they are going to get either knocked back or just not make any impact, it is that simple. We don't put anyone on the ball at pace.

rodders wrote:I don't think roberts is one dimensional, he plays a certain game for Wales that is extremely effective.

For the Lions he showed how good a footballer he is alongside O'Driscoll. His hands are very good and hes clever too.

People confuse big powerful 3/4s with being 1 dimensional and limited, SBW and Nonu are too of the most skillfull players around and Roberts/Davies are no dummies either.

Sticking a big lump with limited ability in is not the answer. I'd have Trimble, Spence or Bowe in midfield ahead of Downey any day. They need to be playing there at provincial level though.

I think Nonu and Davies are very skilful actually, but not Roberts. He has decent enough hands, but he isn't really a clever footballer IMO. He is one dimensional in that he does one thing but like I said it works.

I don't think Bowe/Trimble should be considered at 13 either, in another life I would say Trimble would have made a fantastic 13 for Ireland but it is a bit late now IMO. They will not get many chances there for Ulster. Spence should be considered at 13, IMO he is very similar to a young Trimble, with more physicality. His distribution needs work, and he needs to unlearn bad habits (running straight for contact and forgetting that he actually has wonderful foot work) but he is a great raw option who needs to be developed.

BTW Rodders - good to see you back.

Thomond wrote:Earls certainly has the potential to be a very solid players in any back position. Winger or full back more than likely.

He does Thomond, but solid isn't good enough against the top teams. Earls and McFadden simply aren't top standard players. Decent squad men at international level but thats about it. The same applies unfortunately to Trimble and possibly Cave, who in fairness hasn't got a decent run yet.

Bowe is top class for sure and Fitzgerald possibly too. That's it I think for now until Madigan, Hanaran, Conway, Kearney jr, Zebo, Spence, O'Malley and Gilroy come through. We need a couple of those guys to really step up a few levels asap.

Thanks Rory

Is it September yet???

rodders wrote:

Thomond wrote:Earls certainly has the potential to be a very solid players in any back position. Winger or full back more than likely.

He does Thomond, but solid isn't good enough against the top teams. Earls and McFadden simply aren't top standard players. Decent squad men at international level but thats about it. The same applies unfortunately to Trimble and possibly Cave, who in fairness hasn't got a decent run yet.

Bowe is top class for sure and Fitzgerald possibly too. That's it I think for now until Madigan, Hanaran, Conway, Kearney jr, Zebo, Spence, O'Malley and Gilroy come through. We need a couple of those guys to really step up a few levels asap.

Arnt we talking about Madigan, Hanaran, Conway, Kearney jr, Zebo, Spence, O'Malley and Gilroy in the same way we used to talk about the others you say arent top drawer? Is there anything we can do to raise the roof of their talent in a way that the others didnt?

Putting trust in them earlier, giving them top level experience sooner?

Clive a player is neither top drawer nor not top drawer in my eyes until hes been tested at a level and/or has reached his peak.

There's no reason to believe that any of those guys will fair any better other than they haven't been tested yet.

They are at different stages of development obviously and it will take some of them a while to reach international level.

The point is that Trimble, Earls, McFadden haven't developed (yet) into international standard players capable of replacing the likes of BOD, Horgan and D'arcy in the way Bowe and Kearney have.

We need to hope that in the next batch of talented backs coming through that some of them reach that level.

I think the generation of players that Rodders refers to have indeed been wasted. Certain players do end up excelling when thrown in the deep end simply because they adapt and play to their strengths. Players that show initial promise have been selected by other teams despite their weaknesses, because they trust they will make an impact. Hence why North, Cuthbert, O'Connor etc have all had their chances from an early age. We seem to think they need the most experience they can get first, before moving to international rugby, and at that point other players at that age are way ahead in development. Our players struggle to catch up. I find it baffling why the IRFU cannot see this.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't think Bowe/Trimble should be considered at 13 either, in another life I would say Trimble would have made a fantastic 13 for Ireland but it is a bit late now IMO. They will not get many chances there for Ulster. Spence should be considered at 13, IMO he is very similar to a young Trimble, with more physicality. His distribution needs work, and he needs to unlearn bad habits (running straight for contact and forgetting that he actually has wonderful foot work) but he is a great raw option who needs to be developed.

He's all we've got for future 13. Cave, mcfadden et all just aren't up to par, and if they arent at thier age, they never will be. Bowe is a bonafide winger, he should stay on wing. In response to earlier, I dont think downey (or any other big, but average skilled player) would be the catalyst for ireland, but he would offer 1 more option to make the hard yards, and therefore free up the forewards to concentrate on quick ball, creating space the rest.

Ealrs hasn't reached his peak. He has certainly more talent to be more than what he is now. He has shown glimpses of it but hasn't thrived although only two of our backs have really stood out over Deccie's reign Kearney and Bowe. I think you are writing him off too early.

Here is a scenario - in the 2010/11 season, Spence was one of the best emerging 13s around, and he was selected for the 6 nations. Of course he was a tackle bag holder and got no game time. Yet I do wonder what would have happened had he been capped? Could he have made a real impact and we could have had the successor to BOD right there and then? At that point in time he was ready IMO. Now his development has been stalled. Like many players in Ireland.

The same applies for the likes of Gilroy, Zebo and Madigan. Hanrahan this season NEEDS game time for Munster. As does Hendy for Ulster. They are as ready as they are ever going to be. I know the likes of Sin will say they haven't had enough exposure in the Pro 12, then in the HEC, then the Ireland As, before getting a chance for Ireland. Though that is nonsense it really is. No other team has this experience ladder that the players need to go through.

I expect Hanrahan will get a lot of gametime for Munster this year. Downey is his only real competition at 12 along with the equally green but less impressive Ivan Dineen.

Thomond wrote:Ealrs hasn't reached his peak. He has certainly more talent to be more than what he is now. He has shown glimpses of it but hasn't thrived although only two of our backs have really stood out over Deccie's reign Kearney and Bowe. I think you are writing him off too early.

That is part of my point Thomond, Earls should be in his prime at this point, but he isn't. Other players at his age or younger are already making a huge impact on the international stage while Earls is still in early to mid development stage. We don't even know what his best position is, and I don't even think he is the best option in any position at this point.

Being a tackle bag holder for Ireland isn't enough either. Kidney seems to think this will help their development while the other players at their age are thriving in the international game for other countries. Sometimes a player who shows promise and who could be the answer we need should get his chance despite his apparent weaknesses. What better way to improve than against the best opposition possible.

I'm a big believer in playing your best team at international level.

Sometimes that means the 18 year old uncapped player who brings the fearlessness of youth and the element of surprise to the table.

Other times it means the 34 year old who knows what he is doing and been there before.

It is the job of an international coach to decide when the time is right. Same as it is the job of a flyhalf to decide when to kick away possession, when to pass and when to run.

I think we are certainly not seeing this from the Irish National Team management.

The current system seems to be play 6-7 new players against the Barbarians or Fiji or Canada and wait for injuries to force the rest of the decisions.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Here is a scenario - in the 2010/11 season, Spence was one of the best emerging 13s around, and he was selected for the 6 nations. Of course he was a tackle bag holder and got no game time. Yet I do wonder what would have happened had he been capped? Could he have made a real impact and we could have had the successor to BOD right there and then? At that point in time he was ready IMO. Now his development has been stalled. Like many players in Ireland.

The same applies for the likes of Gilroy, Zebo and Madigan. Hanrahan this season NEEDS game time for Munster. As does Hendy for Ulster. They are as ready as they are ever going to be. I know the likes of Sin will say they haven't had enough exposure in the Pro 12, then in the HEC, then the Ireland As, before getting a chance for Ireland. Though that is nonsense it really is. No other team has this experience ladder that the players need to go through.

I agree Rory, but have no evidence to provide. I just have a niggling feeling that the players who become top class benefit from being trusted rather than years of tirelessly proving themselves for recognition.

Take George North for example just before he got called up for international duty. I dont think Gilroy, Zebo etc... have been any less 'special' than he was then for his club. He got the call, and he got the run of games.

Classic chicken and the egg though. Did he get selected because management new he was going to be brilliant? Or did he become brilliant because of what the selection did to his mentality and self belief?

Thomond wrote:Ealrs hasn't reached his peak. He has certainly more talent to be more than what he is now. He has shown glimpses of it but hasn't thrived although only two of our backs have really stood out over Deccie's reign Kearney and Bowe. I think you are writing him off too early.

No I agree he hasn't reached his peak and he can still improve but for me he is nowhere near the level he needs to be.

He's been around a while now and for me he has only ever produced one performance of note in an Ireland jersey (vs England in 2011). He's shown glimpses of class and has notched up a decent try tally against weaker international sides but he just hasn't looked up to scratch against the better teams, in defence or attack. Take out his pace and every aspect of his game is substandard. He just drifts in and out of games and has little influence.

That might seem harsh but I rarely don't think hes a great player in any position.

To give you an idea of how long Earls has been around.

In 11 months the Lions travel to Australia.

Earls was selected for the last Lions tour on the back of a very good season. He has been playing top flight rugby for nearly 4 years.

Dineen could be the big kinda centre guys want, he won't get much game time I'd say but he is pretty big, fast, and good at breaking the line.

Is that all Earls' fault though Rory? The guy hardly wants to be moved from position to position. I doubt Fitz does either. We moved him round at Munster a lot but by and large he has played 13, Ireland don't see him as that so he plays anywhere. Can he really be expect to be great in a position he gets little game time in? You could say similar things when Luke Fitz was being moved around

All very valid points, the Irish in general are conservative people, suppose it translates into sport! However, before we can consider playing younger players, we need to change our game. I know I've said it about 10 times now. But we probably have the worst coached backline around, when Eddie was in charge we had a cracking backline. Think of what bradley did for edinbrugh, schmidt for leinster, deans for aus, etc etc. Our young guns will all be wasted playing with the most stale team in world rugby.

red_stag wrote:I'm a big believer in playing your best team at international level.

I'm a believer that it takes 6-8 years to build a RWC winning side...... that means building now for 2019.

Maybe we could split the difference and win in 2015?.....

kunu wrote:All very valid points, the Irish in general are conservative people, suppose it translates into sport!

+ 10 million.

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:After the Irish job I don't see him getting anything near as good a coaching role again

I can see him going back teaching and chasing that public sector pension!!

This the same guy who turned down a job upstairs in the IRFU after he was made redundant by EOS we're talking about. He didn't go back to his public sector teaching job then, and I doubt if he'll do it now considering he hasn't been teaching since about 1997!

The thing is Earls has been tossed all over the place in those 4 years and now he wants to focus on playing 13, at this stage in his career. So he has to adjust. He played 13 alongside BOD at 12 in 2010 and did well, and he could have been developed as his backup from that point onwards but he hasn't been. BOD has been seen as irreplaceable with no thought towards the future. He has only really got his chances at 13 this season. And he is adjusting. Yet I don't think he is making the right decision. Would Foden be as good as he is had he remained at 9?

To expand on having a back up option, we all saw the debut of Cane against Ireland. Cane is 20 years old. He is seen as the back up to McCaw, but obviously McCaw is still first choice. The coaches still thought they had a wonderful opportunity to see what Cane could do so they started him at 7. Now they have a fantastic back up to McCaw. We could have done this for BOD, D'Arcy, POC etc but we leave it to the last possible moment.

I know Stag you believe in picking the best players available - well I do too, but you still have to look to the future. Or just the present, injuries are a common thing in today's game and teams must prepare for that. Yet we haven't been developing ANY back up to certain positions, just stop gaps or average players who can do a job. We haven't actually thought about who will genuinely get the shirt when a player retires or isn't good enough.

Building for the future is important but it doesn't take 3 years to build a World Cup side. The crux of the Oz side got the majority of their experience from late 2009 onwards.

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:After the Irish job I don't see him getting anything near as good a coaching role again

I can see him going back teaching and chasing that public sector pension!!

This the same guy who turned down a job upstairs in the IRFU after he was made redundant by EOS we're talking about. He didn't go back to his public sector teaching job then, and I doubt if he'll do it now considering he hasn't been teaching since about 1997!

But that makes no sense.

He is much more likely to go back now. He coached Munster he coached Ireland. He won the Heineken Cup and Grandslam. He was made redundant about 10 years ago and clearly had so much to do.

He strikes me as a very family orientated man (as we saw with his time in charge of Dragons and Leinster). I don't see him heading off to be the next Zebre coach and as you say he turned down a job upstairs in the IRFU.

I think he could very easily go back teaching. The pension thing was tongue in cheek but I am sure it played a part. He could combine that with Munster / Ireland Schools as a lot of teachers do and he did himself once upon a time.

Thomond wrote:Dineen could be the big kinda centre guys want, he won't get much game time I'd say but he is pretty big, fast, and good at breaking the line.

Is that all Earls' fault though Rory? The guy hardly wants to be moved from position to position. I doubt Fitz does either. We moved him round at Munster a lot but by and large he has played 13, Ireland don't see him as that so he plays anywhere. Can he really be expect to be great in a position he gets little game time in? You could say similar things when Luke Fitz was being moved around

Mate, I don't think any of it is Earls' fault. He isn't the first guy in rugby to say what his favourite position is but not play there. SBW came from league not really knowing where to play, and the coaches saw he could make a promising 12. Foden wanted to play 9, and he even moved clubs to play there, but the coaches knew he had the most potential at 15. A coach should be able to spot these things, and develop the player to fulfil his potential.