Irish Autumn Squad-BOD AND BEST OUT!

First topic message reminder :

So Kidney announces his squad today, a 32 man panel against the boks and pumas. More players come into consideration for the Fiji game.

A 31 man Ireland squad including four uncapped players has been named by Ireland Coach Declan Kidney for the 2012 Guinness Series games against South Africa, Fiji and Argentina.

Centre Luke Marshall and forward Iain Henderson named in the panel and who were involved in the Ireland training camp in September are included in the squad as are prop David Kilcoyne and hooker Richardt Strauss, who is now eligible to play for Ireland based on his residency for the past three years.
In addition to the naming of the Ireland squad for the 2012 Guinness Series, there were also changes announced to the makeup of the national coaching staff with current Munster Assistant Coach and former international Anthony Foley joining the Ireland coaching team.

Foley will be now be leading the defence plans and systems allowing Assistant Coach Les Kiss to lead the attack shape for the team as well as continue to coach the backline. Foley will remain working with Munster Rugby outside of the international window. It was also confirmed that Leinster scrum coach, Greg Feek will continue providing his expertise to the Ireland team during competition time.

Commenting on the Guinness Series games and the addition of Anthony Foley, Ireland Coach Declan Kidney said: "We have three incredibly competitive games ahead of us in November and while there have been quite a few injuries and niggles in the early part of the season, it has opened up opportunities for other players to step into the squad. There are world ranking points on offer, so the underlying challenge for us is to work towards retaining and improving our ranking position ahead of the Rugby World Cup pool draw. While that is the end goal, our focus will be getting our preparations right to match the intensity of international games.

"I'm pleased that Anthony has taken up the offer of working with the squad to assist during this vital period in November. His previous experience of working with the team during the last RBS 6 Nations championship was important, but his own abilities and experience were central to bringing him onboard. I would like to thank Rob Penney and Joe Schmidt for being so positive and giving Anthony Foley and Greg (Feek) the scope to be part of the plans that we have."

Anthony Foley said: "I was delighted when Declan approached Rob and me about the possibility of working with the Ireland team again. I enjoyed the opportunity I got during the Six Nations working with the players and I felt once we were all comfortable with the balance between Munster and Ireland, I jumped at the chance. I certainly feel I can contribute positively and when you get the chance to coach with your country, you don't want to pass it up.

Ticket sales have reached over 46,000 for the South Africa game with only a limited number of categories available for purchase from IrishRugby.ie and www.ticketmaster.ie

While the Argentina game is a full month away, ticket sales are at just over 37,000 tickets and are selling quickly and have already surpassed the attendance the last time Argentina visited the Aviva.

Ah Gibbo, Horgan was ok. A plucky guy who always gave his best. Got on the end of a few tries against a poor English team and earned plaudits that outweighed him.

O'Mahony is developing nicely at 6/8, Henry on the other hand is specialising at 7.

For once, we should make a decision on form! O'Mahony could be a great 7. If he gets to play there every week. He's not going to do better than the guy who's starting week in week out with just one game. He may well do if he gets the same opportunities to start at openside as Henry has, but Henry has had a lot more gametime there.

This is my biggest problem with the relationship between Ireland and the provinces. The provincial coaches who spend most time with the players identify their best position- be it Tom Court is definitely a loosehead, Paddy Wallace is an inside centre, O'Mahony is a 6/8, McFadden is a 12 etc.

Then the coaches come along and say "Right. Give him a game at 3, him a game at 10, him a game at 7 and him a game on the wing". And then they suddenly expect these guys to be expert in those positions and ready to take on the cream of the crop.

I appreciate we have to make the best of a small player base in a limited number of teams. But it seems very amateurish. They have very little time to prepare a side, how do they expect to do that efficiently if players are adapting to positions they don't normally play?

Notch wrote:O'Mahony is developing nicely at 6/8, Henry on the other hand is specialising at 7.

For once, we should make a decision on form! O'Mahony could be a great 7. If he gets to play there every week. He's not going to do better than the guy who's starting week in week out with just one game. He may well do if he gets the same opportunities to start at openside as Henry has, but Henry has had a lot more gametime there.

This is my biggest problem with the relationship between Ireland and the provinces. The provincial coaches who spend most time with the players identify their best position- be it Tom Court is definitely a loosehead, Paddy Wallace is an inside centre, O'Mahony is a 6/8, McFadden is a 12 etc.

Then the coaches come along and say "Right. Give him a game at 3, him a game at 10, him a game at 7 and him a game on the wing". And then they suddenly expect these guys to be expert in those positions and ready to take on the cream of the crop.

I appreciate we have to make the best of a small player base in a limited number of teams. But it seems very amateurish. They have very little time to prepare a side, how do they expect to do that efficiently if players are adapting to positions they don't normally play?

+1

Totally agree Notch.

We aren't awful at it, there are a large number of our prefered starting Irish team who play that position week in week out (Healy-Best-Ross-POC-Heaslip-Reddan-Sexton-BOD-Kearney) was gonna put in Bowe but he is a 15 all of a sudden!!!!

Henry and Jennings are not good enough for international. POM is a very good backrower. Whether it 6,7 or 8 and is good on the ground. Good call I would say.

How do you know Henry isn't good enough for international level DOD? He's only had one cap really and that was 2 years ago away in OZ and he played 8.

He's bang in form at the moment and should be given a chance, especially at 7 when what we need is a 7, not a 6.5. POM's a good 6/8 but hasn't played 7 this year.

DOD wrote:Henry and Jennings are not good enough for international. POM is a very good backrower. Whether it 6,7 or 8 and is good on the ground. Good call I would say.

Is POM going to be the new Keith Earls.Is he the sticky plaster for our back row and just gets shoved into whatever position there's an injury while never developing properly in any one.

Thats it, we have a small player base and a man on form is dismissed as being not good enough despite never having started an international game in that position. Sums it up because Kidney might even be thinking the same.

You can't afford to be this conservative unless you have genuine quality in depth. We don't have that. We need to take risks on players sometimes to see if they can do it. We simply can't afford to dismiss players out of hand, we don't have the depth to do it.

red_stag wrote:Ah Gibbo, Horgan was ok. A plucky guy who always gave his best. Got on the end of a few tries against a poor English team and earned plaudits that outweighed him.

Love it. So subtle.

Simon Geoghegan! Forgot about him. Now there was a winger and a half.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:Henry and Jennings are not good enough for international. POM is a very good backrower. Whether it 6,7 or 8 and is good on the ground. Good call I would say.

Is POM going to be the new Keith Earls.Is he the sticky plaster for our back row and just gets shoved into whatever position there's an injury while never developing properly in any one.

POM is another of Deccies pets. Just another honest Munster mullacker. He´s not fit to lick Jennos boots at 7. Any other(decent) coach and Jenno would be nailed on at 7.

Wont be long now...

Ooo, Gibson, our best winger ever. Man, I cannot even remotely agree with that. Our best of that type of physical winger, no arguements at all. aside from being pretty much our only physical winger ever, he was excellent in that role, but in an Ireland jersey was never that good, NEVER world class. Ever. And point in time in his career he wouldn't have been within an Ass's roar of a World 3rd XV, never mind a World XV. Hickie, Geoghegan, Bowe, Earls, Trimble (now, not when they were competing for a place) Sir Anthony, are all better wingers.

Gibbo,

Geoghegan was a class act. Hickie was a class act.

Shane Horgan was a decent player who gave 100% but wasn't a Hickie or a Geoghegan.

For me, Shaggy was more effective than all the aforementioned players. For a big lump, he had sweet feet and magic hands.

I love Shaggy. In a manly way like.

Debaters is right. We are comparing different types of wingers. Geoghegan & Hickie were so special. I have to concede that.

Henry should get the nod at 7. He deserves it and I'm sure he will get at least 1 game there. POM will be on the bench.

Id rather see Henry start than POM. Even if he is no Jenno... Hes more of a natural 7 than POM. Its what we have been lacking for yonks.

Gibson wrote:Id rather see Henry start than POM. Even if he is no Jenno... Hes more of a natural 7 than POM. Its what we have been lacking for yonks.

Jennings is also a natural 7, anytime he had a chance for IReland he was sho1te. POM will be around for a long time...

The only time Jennings is going to get a run in a green jersey is the golden oldies matches in Dubai.

DOD wrote:

Gibson wrote:Id rather see Henry start than POM. Even if he is no Jenno... Hes more of a natural 7 than POM. Its what we have been lacking for yonks.

Jennings is also a natural 7, anytime he had a chance for IReland he was sho1te. POM will be around for a long time...

The only time Jennings is going to get a run in a green jersey is the golden oldies matches in Dubai.

As soon as that Cork gobshite is gone... Jenno will get his chance. He has never been given a proper run. Injuries stopped him at key times over the years. And Wally wasn´t bad either. We´ll see.

i cant remember jennings ever having a consistent run of games in a green jersey. He has played poorly in a few dreadful team performances.

I am not sure how Henry can be branded as not international class given he has eh two caps. He is the form number 7 and should start v South Africa. Which probably means he will not. i would like to see a back row of Ferris,Henry,Heaslip with OMahony on the bench. If something happens to Ferris, Kevin Mc Loughlin can deputise

debaters1 wrote:Ooo, Gibson, our best winger ever. Man, I cannot even remotely agree with that. Our best of that type of physical winger, no arguements at all. aside from being pretty much our only physical winger ever, he was excellent in that role, but in an Ireland jersey was never that good, NEVER world class. Ever. And point in time in his career he wouldn't have been within an Ass's roar of a World 3rd XV, never mind a World XV. Hickie, Geoghegan, Bowe, Earls, Trimble (now, not when they were competing for a place) Sir Anthony, are all better wingers.

earls and trimble better than the one and only shaggy?

Personally I would like to see Heaslip dropped. He can spend all his time on the bench checking his hair.

Nits in the Irish camp? Paulie knows how to keep 'em at bay - do the medieval shave. Himself and Strauss should avoid the buggars

Its funny that theres so much complaining about 23 year old POM and nothing said about kevin McLoughlin who is much older and less talented. Bias maybe? Heaslip too is immune to any sort of criticism.

Bias...never how dare you. I don't like Jamie's new perm though. But I bet the rugger huggers do.

profitius wrote:Its funny that theres so much complaining about 23 year old POM and nothing said about kevin McLoughlin who is much older and less talented. Bias maybe? Heaslip too is immune to any sort of criticism.

When did you come out from under your rock.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

profitius wrote:Its funny that theres so much complaining about 23 year old POM and nothing said about kevin McLoughlin who is much older and less talented. Bias maybe? Heaslip too is immune to any sort of criticism.

When did you come out from under your rock.

You just proved my point that Heaslip has to be immune from criticism.

How did I do that?

Edit:Actually reading my post it may have come off as aggressive,I meant it to be more like you've been hiding under a rock if you think Heaslip is immune from criticism,he has got and deserved plenty of it over the last few years.

But apparently not immune from the pseudo teams put together by the blue rinse brigade

DOD wrote:But apparently not immune from the pseudo teams put together by the blue rinse brigade

It's like the Mike Ross problem,nobody else has shown an ability to replace even an out of form Heaslip.

Ah but you are wrong. POM is already a better player...simples

Lol maybe he'll show it on a pitch some day.

Well considering Jamie and his perm has been carried in leinster by one OAP and in an Ireland shirt by Ferris and SOB, whereas POM has been the best player in the Munster pack over the last 12 months....

DKs loyalty to some players is too obvious at times...

Jamie (and his hair) like Sexton are now past their sell by date...

Sorry for being a sook yesterday lads. Best wishes to Deccie and whoever takes the field in the AIs. 3 wins please

profitius wrote:Its funny that theres so much complaining about 23 year old POM and nothing said about kevin McLoughlin who is much older and less talented. Bias maybe? Heaslip too is immune to any sort of criticism.

To be honest I'm baffled with McLaughlins inclusion but I don't expect him to be near the matchday squad unless there are injuries.

I would happily see O'Mahony start ahead of Heaslip as well. Don't really care though. Neither of them has shown much form so far this season. In fact the only backrows I can think of off hand who are really playing consistently well are Henry and Jennings. I'm sure I'm forgetting someone though.

Henderson, Dougal and Ferris have been in good form imo (along with the 2 you've mentioned). Muldoon has been playing well too.

I actually think Heaslip has been ok.

Sometimes with players like him and Ferris, who have set such high standards, they can appear to not be playing well when they dip below top form, when they're still actually playing better than everyone else.

Ferris has played 2 games. Just not a big enough sample. He's hardly stretched his legs in anger. He certainly hasn't been playing better than everyone else. By no means playing badly but he's got a lot more to offer once he gets his match sharpness back.

Yes, Dougall and Henderson have been going well. Wouldn't throw them in against the Boks at all mind you, they've plenty to work on in their game. Looking forward to seeing their progress.

No you are right but in the games he played he was pretty good without catching the eye as much as last year, its unfortunate he got injured again.

Henry and Jennings are the men in form.

rodders wrote:Henderson, Dougal and Ferris have been in good form imo (along with the 2 you've mentioned). Muldoon has been playing well too.

I actually think Heaslip has been ok.

Sometimes with players like him and Ferris, who have set such high standards, they can appear to not be playing well when they dip below top form, when they're still actually playing better than everyone else.

According to Rob Penney, Dougall is 2/3 years off being a top openside (he needs to develop his physicality and his nous).

There is an interview with him on Munster Rugby tv. The guy comes across as being super focussed on making the most of his talents and being the best there is. Apparently he really impressed in preseason - seems he had done his own before he even arrived.

Muldoon is just back (got injured in early sept). Didn't see the Zebre HC game, but he looked off the pace against 'quins.

Henderson has started 3/4 games in his entire career!

rodders wrote:Henderson, Dougal and Ferris have been in good form imo (along with the 2 you've mentioned). Muldoon has been playing well too.

I actually think Heaslip has been ok.

Sometimes with players like him and Ferris, who have set such high standards, they can appear to not be playing well when they dip below top form, when they're still actually playing better than everyone else.

I think heaslip was on of our best players in our last 3 games (Leinster) he also was excellent in 2nd test against AB's

POM is a decent blindside, but he's not a number 8. He was completly outplayed by Heaslip in the game in Lansdowne in Oct.

And speaking of captain material, Heaslip still has a 100% record as captain for Leinster.

Sin é wrote:
Muldoon is just back (got injured in early sept). Didn't see the Zebre HC game, but he looked off the pace against 'quins.

Henderson has started 3/4 games in his entire career!

Muldoon came on against Ulster and caused a few problems at the breakdown for us. He's a player I really rate. I have to confess to being a bit shorted sighted though so if I made the first bit up then please someone correct me.....

I'm not saying Dougal should be capped, just that he is playing well.

Re Henderson...well if they're good enough then they're old enough. This lad is good too go and I'd have no problem throwing him in against the Boks. Physicality won't be a problem for him anyways...

Is Henderson good enough to displace Ferris, Henry, Heaslip or POM though?

I would doubt it I have to say.

I was very disappointed that Smal thinks of him as a 6 and not a lock. That really rubbed me up the wrong way, he has looked good at 6 but he was a monster at lock in the JWC.

There's an article in the Times now saying that Bent has a chance of getting called up!?!?!?!

This sh!t is crazy!

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Is Henderson good enough to displace Ferris, Henry, Heaslip or POM though?

Well Ferris is the only out and out blindside in that group, and he is in my opinion the current worlds best (certainly top 3)... so the short answer is no, not right now.

I do think Henderson is potentially better than the lot though. He looks to me like a guy we can build our pack around post O'Connell. Whether thats at 6 or lock time will tell.

I really hope it's as a lock, i think we're very well served in the backrow but there's no potential WC locks coming through. Either way, it's good to see him in the squad, he's going to be a star.

I don't think we are as well served in the backrow as some would have us believe.

Ferris and SOB are world class for sure but the formers cartlidge is ground to dust so you have to take it a game at a time with him. Heaslip isn't as poor as some are making out but isn't the player he was in 2009. O'Mahoney has come through well but isn't on par with those 3. Henry is playing out of his skin but is already 28, and Jennings 32. There's a few other guys around who can do a job but none you would say are World class.

The fact the Henderson is athletic enough to do both is a big boost for the national side.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Is Henderson good enough to displace Ferris, Henry, Heaslip or POM though?

I would doubt it I have to say.

I was very disappointed that Smal thinks of him as a 6 and not a lock. That really rubbed me up the wrong way, he has looked good at 6 but he was a monster at lock in the JWC.

There's an article in the Times now saying that Bent has a chance of getting called up!?!?!?!

This sh!t is crazy!

For the autumn internationals?That's got to be just paper talk,hasn't it?

rodders wrote:I don't think we are as well served in the backrow as some would have us believe.

Ferris and SOB are world class for sure but the formers cartlidge is ground to dust so you have to take it a game at a time with him. Heaslip isn't as poor as some are making out but isn't the player he was in 2009. O'Mahoney has come through well but isn't on par with those 3. Henry is playing out of his skin but is already 28, and Jennings 32. There's a few other guys around who can do a job but none you would say are World class.

The fact the Henderson is athletic enough to do both is a big boost for the national side.

This shouldn't be a problem,sometimes you need a guy to come in and do a job for a year or two.Not every player needs to start at 21 and play until they're 35.POM should be ready by that time and if not there are other young lads coming through.

I think Heaslip is really coming back into form at the minute,he's been top class for Leinster in a poorly performing team,he's not making the eye catching carries he used to but he's working like a demon at the ruck and in the tackle and still makes ground when he is asked to carry.

rodders wrote:Henry is playing out of his skin but is already 28.

Ah FFS lets just cart him away to the old folks home so.

Back up the truck there lads...don't get age concern on to me yet!

What I mean is at 28 Henry isn't one for the long term. He's already older than the current incombents. He is certainly an option for now and the next few seasons but the point is in the longer term we aren't that healthy in the backrow department that we can dismiss options like Henderson.

We need to stop getting hung up on the future. Now and again there is an exception to the rule - i.e. tighthead situation but by and large if you just always pick your best team and best squad you'll be fine.

The issue is that Kidney is not doing it but equally we can't forget about lads in their late 20s on the basis that they "only" have 3-4 years left in them.

BTW I rate Henderson very very highly. I think he will do well be it at lock or #6.

I think we'll be fine in the backrow in the long term. Its an area we seem to produce loads of players. In the JWC Conor Gilsenan looked like he could be top class. Dave O'Callaghan and Paddy Butler have potential too and you have a few more fringe players would could make the step up.

rodders wrote:I don't think we are as well served in the backrow as some would have us believe.

Ferris and SOB are world class for sure but the formers cartlidge is ground to dust so you have to take it a game at a time with him. Heaslip isn't as poor as some are making out but isn't the player he was in 2009. O'Mahoney has come through well but isn't on par with those 3. Henry is playing out of his skin but is already 28, and Jennings 32. There's a few other guys around who can do a job but none you would say are World class.

The fact the Henderson is athletic enough to do both is a big boost for the national side.

I was doing a coaching course a few weeks ago and the lecturer said that SOB could end up the same way as Ferris to a lesser extent as he is very inflexible. Apparently that is where is injury has come from, wasn't a bang or contact just wear and tear due to not being flexible enough

I think Heaslip is playing very well at the moment, he Strauss and Jennings do so much work on the floor