England v SA - KO 14:30 Sat 24th NOV at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions

Game 1: Eng v Fiji 54-12 World class performance.
Game 2: Eng v Aus 14-20 We was robbed, by ourselves.
Game 3: Eng v SA ??-??
Game 4: Eng v NZ ??-??

England team to face South Africa:

Alex Goode (Saracens, 4 caps);
Chris Ashton (Saracens, 27 caps),
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 15 caps),
Brad Barritt (Saracens, 9 caps),
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 9 caps);
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps),
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps);
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 16 caps),
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps),
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps),
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 2 caps),
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps),
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 11 caps),
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 10 caps),
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 7 caps).

Replacements: David Paice (London Irish, 4 caps), David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 21 caps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 2 caps), Mouritz Botha (Saracens, 9 caps), James Haskell (London Wasps, 43 caps), Danny Care (Harlequins, 35 caps), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 10 caps), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 3 caps).


South Africa team:
Z Kirchner (Blue Bulls);
JP Pietersen (Sharks),
J de Jongh (Western Province),
J de Villiers (Western Province, captain),
F Hougaard (Blue Bulls);
P Lambie (Sharks),
R Pienaar (Ulster);
G Steenkamp (Toulouse),
A Strauss (Cheetahs),
J du Plessis (Sharks),
E Etzebeth (Western Province),
J Kruger (Blue Bulls),
F Louw (Bath),
W Alberts (Sharks),
D Vermeulen (Western Province).

Replacements: S Brits (Saracens), H van der Merwe (Leinster), P Cilliers (Western Province), F van der Merwe (Blue Bulls), M Coetzee (Sharks), E Jantjies (Golden Lions), J Taute (Golden Lions), L Mvovo (Sharks).

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Looking at the provisional match stats it appears the side have been taking revenge on Tuilagi for his imability to pass.

5 possessions all game, and at least one of those was a turnover.

Simply not good enough for the only player who looked genuinely threatening. The outside backs need to be in the game

And someone needs to tell Brown and Goode where to stand

[gregortree]

Glaws need him more we don't get picked for national duty, so why do we care ?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

We need 36.

Yep.

Foden back fit, Croft for Wood, and Hask for Robshaw. Captaincy by internet and phone voting, it would be quicker than asking Robshaws opinion.

[Duty281]

i agree barney- but i have a feeling we are gonna do NZ which will make it a success! why everyone will think i am in fantsy land- but i think we can beat em up.

That's the spirit lad.

[Irishhoneymonster]

Commiserations to all England fans, really thought you would win today. Was shouting at the TV for most of the match and even more so when Robshaw went for the 3 points at the end. Silly decision but somehow he must have been thinking about being lambasted for decisions last week. Still he should have realised what was the right thing to do 4 points down with 2 or 3 mins to go. Despite today's result I don't think you played too badly and think you have the makings of a very good team

[gregortree]

thanks Irish We have one more humiliation to bear yet.

[yappysnap]

Ouch, Robshaw boy wonder in the summer and now the most hated man in England? We are fickle aren't we all?

Quick get Wood in there! No Haskell! No Vunipola! No Croft! Change change change change, jerk those knees!

Let's forget the Poopie lineout, missed kicks at goal, aimless kicking from hand, knock ons and almost zero creativity in attack.

Let's blame everything on one poor decision not to kick for touch at the death, because the lineout had been great before that and we'd been tearing them up hadn't we?

Congrats SA, always looked comfy in defence especially when allowed to get penalised non stop. Unlucky England

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Woods already in their Yapp, no need to panic

[yappysnap]

Thank god for that!! We'll def win with him playing right?? Right?

[Bathman_in_London]

Despite the slating Robshaw is getting, England looked like they would struggle to brake through a paper bag let alone a line break from a set piece. Add in The dodgy lineout and I can see the thinking about securing the kickoff and working back up field for a drop goal.

It wasn't the best call but the game was lost long before that I think.

[yappysnap]

Despite the slating Robshaw is getting, England looked like they would struggle to brake through a paper bag let alone a line break from a set piece. Add in The dodgy lineout and I can see the thinking about securing the kickoff and working back up field for a drop goal.

It wasn't the best call but the game was lost long before that I think.

Finally some one with a bit of common sense.

Thank you Bathman (well done last night too, he say's through gritted teeth).

[Geordie]

By god....why so much cr#p

The guys did ok...things to work on yes....but.they'll get there. We are getting.the base of a decent side...and slowly workingon who's the best players...

I thought we'd beat Fiji and no more but over the weeks I've seen signs that we can have a very strong side soon....but just need to iron out a few things...Morgan was a big influence...as was launchbury...Cole excellent, corbs showed he's no 1 but the attack showeddecision making.is.still an issue.

Robshaw will learn his captaincy

We'll get there no hangings needed

[bedfordwelsh]

Geordie,

Why was Morgan left out intil today for Waldron was it just a bit of rotatio by Lancaster?

[Bathman_in_London]

Well frankly some of the dog bath showed last night could have been used today.
Aside from the fact that the 2 youngs brothers seemed determined to hand possession back to south africa surely a big issue is our backline? Awful kicking, no attacking backs moves at all, what was going on? Manu is out most potent threat but he only seemed to get the ball during that intercept. Why wasn't he running hard at Lambie, who's about 13 stone?

I'm generally hacked off, I'm bored of the 'lessons learned, things to build on' chat.

[Barney McGrew did it]

I’ve been waiting for a turnaround in England’s fortunes since 2005 and frankly am getting fed up of it. We lost, at home, to 2 distinctly average teams in the last 2 weeks and yet no-one’s to blame and apparently the team is slowly developing. I can see that Robshaw was caught between a rock and a hard place today, but he does have form. However, my main gripe is that it’s clear to me than SL needs proven world class coaching experience around him. I might be persuaded to give CR another chance, but the RFU have got to give Wayne Smith (or someone else with similar pedigree) absolutely anything they ask for to join SL’s team. The most underperforming part of the England team is the coaching staff.

[Geordie]

Bedford

Yes.mate I think they wanted to see Waldrom for two and Morgan for two. And Morgan had a good game. I'm not getting the doom and gloom.

Over reactions

[emack2]

Unable to view the match but saw the freak try playback,result looked very close was it?
Boks back at number 2 and closing on the All Blacks looked like a massive defensive effort was it?
Have England progressed ,what are there chances next week? See the Wallabies
only just scraped by Italy,Samoa gave France a scare,Tonga did Scotland.
Ireland are really turning it on 14 tries in two weeks.!!!

[Guest]

Not a freak try, just forward dominance payed off, just a bouncing ball collected by a switched on player

[thomh]

wum alert

[thomh]

emack2

England could and probably should have won it. Dominated territory and possession but kept making errors at crucial times, and our lineout didn't go well at all. Both sides defended well, but the weather was awful, so attacking play wasn't brilliant. Encouraging, but I wouldn't give us much of a shot against the All Blacks.

[Big]

We need 36.

Yep.

Foden back fit, Croft for Wood, and Hask for Robshaw. Captaincy by internet and phone voting, it would be quicker than asking Robshaws opinion.

Team selection by public vote... Rob Andrew would love that, it gives him a few million extra people to shift the blame onto.

[Big]

emack2

England could and probably should have won it. Dominated territory and possession but kept making errors at crucial times, and our lineout didn't go well at all. Both sides defended well, but the weather was awful, so attacking play wasn't brilliant. Encouraging, but I wouldn't give us much of a shot against the All Blacks.

Definitely could have won it, but I don't think we should have - precisely because we kept making crucial errors at crucial times. There's part of me that says it is a young side and will get better, but another that says these are really really basic errors and aren't fully excused by lack of experience - be it Lawes not passing when we had numbers outside in the 6 nations, quick taps from Youngs against Aus or Robshaw opting to go for goal with a 4 point defecit and 2 minutes left...

[mystiroakey]

well we shouldnt have won it- because we didnt- SA won and held o well enoughn. The what ifs are bs, because in fairness you cant expect to win from a decsion in the last minutes of a game- we should have been comfortable at that point.

I am not dissapointed by the loss- i think we are gonna come up good v NZ and everyone ends happy

[thomh]

well we shouldnt have won it- because we didnt-

What do the words "should have" mean if you can't use them about something that didn't happen?

[yappysnap]

I'm pretty dissapointed about some of the handling and control.

Total lack of strike moves as well.

Do we have a backs or attack coach??

[mystiroakey]

I would use that in different sense- like to an employee- you should have got the job sheet signed off!

at the end of the day, saying we should have won is a bit disrespectfull to the winner.. we could have is probally a better use of words!


But then as most know my English is pretty lame!

[thomh]

Surely that's not too far off the context I used them in though?

i.e, it was within their power to do it, and it was either a bad error or bad luck not to.

[mystiroakey]

oh its fine-It just hate the what if/ we should done this or that/we should have won that one/we played better attitude in sports- yeah i am the same sometimes. I am happy to just accept defeat in this case and move on tbh

we dominated the stats - but how many times do we get the close wins and have less of the play- it happens loads(in footy and rugby) , and i accept the win every time

[thomh]

That's a fair point, but I wasn't trying to have a moan - just give a quick run-down of the game for someone who hadn't seen it. In that context I don't see that using that language is wrong.

[mystiroakey]

Thats fine- Trust me I didnt want to bring up a bad use of English argument..I know what you meant

[fa0019]

The crazy thing is... this is the fourth time ENG have played SA this year and its like they are playing them for the first time in years each time.

They have no idea how to play SA, how to neutralise their strengths or what game plan to adopt.

ENG have 1 trump card in Manu... but not only did they not use him at all on Saturday, when they do use him... they give him standing start ball. Whats the point.

You want to give him the ball at max pace running straight over and beyond the gain line, you want Ashton on his Shoulder.

Someone like Tom Youngs should know his role... its all good being willing and up for it... but he shouldn't be ENG primary ball carrier... he's easily neturalised... but he's perfectly built for clearing rucks out... small and powerful.

Brian Moore never carried the ball for the same reason... but he was a pitbull in the rucks and mauls and thats where he built his whole game around and became a legend..... if he tried to carry more he probably wouldn't have even started the games.

How many times did I see guys like Youngs take it in from Midfield and Manu come in and clear the ruck out?

[Hood83]

The crazy thing is... this is the fourth time ENG have played SA this year and its like they are playing them for the first time in years each time.

They have no idea how to play SA, how to neutralise their strengths or what game plan to adopt.

ENG have 1 trump card in Manu... but not only did they not use him at all on Saturday, when they do use him... they give him standing start ball. Whats the point.

You want to give him the ball at max pace running straight over and beyond the gain line, you want Ashton on his Shoulder.

Someone like Tom Youngs should know his role... its all good being willing and up for it... but he shouldn't be ENG primary ball carrier... he's easily neturalised... but he's perfectly built for clearing rucks out... small and powerful.

Brian Moore never carried the ball for the same reason... but he was a pitbull in the rucks and mauls and thats where he built his whole game around and became a legend..... if he tried to carry more he probably wouldn't have even started the games.

How many times did I see guys like Youngs take it in from Midfield and Manu come in and clear the ruck out?

Spot on, this is it in a nutshell. I happen to think we haven't picked the right team for some time. I still think we're short of genuine ball carriers, but then again I'm not convinced we have anyone who could match the Boks in this area.

The truly frustrating thing as you say is not using players strengths. But perhaps it's just a result of them not being as good as we thought. Youngs, as you say is excellent in the rucks, and his line speed on defence is also brilliant. I actually thought he did well in those areas, but he had to carry more because our other carriers were not doing enough. Corbs, fair enough, probably not 100% fit. Morgan - I like him, his work-rate has improved, but I sort of preferred the lumbering tubby who at least broke some tackles. Hard on him I know because it was SA.

I think the biggest issue we have in the backs is inside centre. Barritt is fine, but offers no kicking game. Opposition know he is either taking it in or shovelling it on. The defence just blitzes up and any depth or momentum our runners might have (normally none) is negated. Unless we have someone who can threaten a chip or grubber through, some basic variety (like Lambie did) we're stuffed.

[EnglishReign]

England actually played quite well, only they were not remotely clinical. I thought SA were there for the taking, but if they had been presented with some of the breaks we had (like the Manu interception), I have no doubt they would've got an easy try out of it.

We made life difficult with poor passing, poor decision making etc. It's a shame because both this game and Aus I think we really should've won.

[belovedfrosties]

i agree barney- but i have a feeling we are gonna do NZ which will make it a success! why everyone will think i am in fantsy land- but i think we can beat em up.

It's pretty hard to call the ABs game to be honest, against both Wales and Scotland they only played for about half the match and in that time scored enough points to just sit back for the rest of the game. Those teams did score a couple of tries against them, but it was down to taking one off opportunities in the Scotland game and then by a brilliant (again, one off) set-piece move from Wales followed by the ABs not really caring anymore.

Englands attack is woeful and i think its more down to coaching than players, also for the life of me i cannot understand why our forwards take the ball standing still and with no-one near them. Either take it on at pace or have a player by you to drive you through the tackle, this is basic forward play which somehow seems to elude the english elite players. I really wish that we had got Wayne Smith, or even brian ashton, for all his weaknesses as a manager he was a brilliant attack coach.

[yappysnap]

Don't worry, i'm sure the Scots will give us a kick in the teeth by signing Wayne Smith or Graham Henry.

England will never perform well until we sort out our coaching and mindset. I don't mean kick out Lancaster, but I do mean change his team. One of them needs to go and be replaced with an experience proven international coach, even if it costs a bomb we need someone with a clear understanding of the modern game and the ability to put those ideas in to practice.

Look at the effect a quality coach has had on clubs like Bath or Quins, or Saracens or Newcastle or further afield the Chiefs or Brumbies. Or at international level look at Argentina now compared to the horrific games we played against them in '11 and '09 and look at France now playing with a qualified Int coach.

You can't chuck a bunch of amateurs in to the very hightest level of the game and expect results, it's just insane, SL on his own would have been alright, but with noobs like Farrel and Catt around him it's just going to be a disaster.

[Hood83]

Don't worry, i'm sure the Scots will give us a kick in the teeth by signing Wayne Smith or Graham Henry.

England will never perform well until we sort out our coaching and mindset. I don't mean kick out Lancaster, but I do mean change his team. One of them needs to go and be replaced with an experience proven international coach, even if it costs a bomb we need someone with a clear understanding of the modern game and the ability to put those ideas in to practice.

Look at the effect a quality coach has had on clubs like Bath or Quins, or Saracens or Newcastle or further afield the Chiefs or Brumbies. Or at international level look at Argentina now compared to the horrific games we played against them in '11 and '09 and look at France now playing with a qualified Int coach.

You can't chuck a bunch of amateurs in to the very hightest level of the game and expect results, it's just insane, SL on his own would have been alright, but with noobs like Farrel and Catt around him it's just going to be a disaster.

Agreed. I really didn't want SL there. I didn't see it as either a brave or sensible choice. Nothing suggests to me that he can get the best out of this team, especially not with Catt and Farrell.

[yappysnap]

SL with better support team may have been alright, if he could stand back from the hands on coaching and be more of a press man, but I get the feeling he's coaching a lot and to be honest he's Love sacks.

Farrel is thankfully a good defence coach (only two tries against second and third placed teams) .

[FerN]

Sorry, I wanted to comment during game time, but I couldn't log in with my phone (any specific reason why?) and lighting took my pc out.

But I just thought that I will give Naas' comments:

1. He said he texted Andre Watson and that Andre said that Vermeulen was in an offside position when he scored the try so it shouldn't have been allowed.

2. He also showed areal footage of the scrums where he showed that Corbs was scrumming in illegally and that all the scrum penalties except the first one should have gone to South Africa.

There were some other stuff as well, but I couldn't remember what he said now.

Brendan Venter also had a few things to say, but I am not going to go into what he said.

[FerN]

A whole article about the laws and the try.

Seems Naas was wrong.

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SpringboksintheUK/Willem-Alberts-Try-or-no-try-20121126

[gregortree]

I do not feel as downhearted, disappointed, or as furious, as various parts the overboiled British / English media would like like me be.

A greenhorn England played S Africa (IRB rank 2) home and away, fronted up well in the physical aspects (which had been a concern) and in last 2 home/away games were one point off the no2 team.
Not bad for a young 'naive' side, with, yes quite a few errors under this new kind of pressure.
Given the low collective cap count it is obvious England can only get older and wiser and better from here.
Well done young England.

[bluestonevedder]

I agree gregortree.

I think there are a lot of positives to take away from that game.

Personally I thought our forwards performed very well around the park, and gained parity with the huge Springbok pack. They were physical in the tackle and at the breakdown, as well as carrying the ball strongly. I thought the backrow was good too, despite Robshaw's obvious errors in judgement.

Wood was a breath of fresh air, and showed genuine grit and determination. I like the fact that he didn't seem to take a step back. He didn't control the ball leading up to SA's try, but that was incredibly unlucky. Morgan played well, and looks so much fitter than he did over the summer. Well done Gloucester.
Haskell was very decent off the bench too.

I was impressed by the lock pairing also. Launchbury just looks like a quality act, and was completely unfazed by the scale of the match. I'd even say he once more outperformed his JRWC buddy Etzebeth, who seemed only interested in starting fights.
Parling was very good in the loose, but the lineout failings rest heavily on his shoulders, as well as Youngs'.

If we could just find someone to spark the backs!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

A whole article about the laws and the try.

Seems Naas was wrong.

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SpringboksintheUK/Willem-Alberts-Try-or-no-try-20121126

Yeah its complicated and everyone was confussed at the time...but did appear to be corect...hence the lack of howls of injustice over it.
The scrums, certainly the one that lead to Louw punching someone, Corbs was clealry going in diagonaly. Again no-ones denying this.

[gregortree]

Bluestone,
put it better than I could have done.
Yes, I retain a doubt about our centres 'passing' to the wingers, or to anyone for that matter. Catt needs to get them back on the paddock for offload / passing coaching.

[AlastairW]

I do not feel as downhearted, disappointed, or as furious, as various parts the overboiled British / English media would like like me be.

Me either

and +1 to the rest of your post and Bluestones post. Bang on the money.

[Ozzy3213]

I do not feel as downhearted, disappointed, or as furious, as various parts the overboiled British / English media would like like me be.

Me either

and +1 to the rest of your post and Bluestones post. Bang on the money.

I feel a little disappointed and frustrated, mainly because both games have been there for England to win had they been a bit smarter.

[HERSH]

Would we have won if Borthwick was Captain or at the very least in the team?

Borthwick +'s

He is experienced, could help guide Robshaw.
He is still one of the best if not the best lineout operator in England.
He has a cool head.
He likes to talk to Refs in a polite manner.

[gregortree]

...... He will not be around in top flight come 2015

[Bathman_in_London]

To be honest, our second rows looked pretty good and his lineout ability wouldnt have made Youngs throw it straight!

[HERSH]

...... He will not be around in top flight come 2015

Maybe, maybe not

But England could have been 3-0 to the good (if they had an old head in the team) going into the All Blacks game.

I firmly believe you pick the best team for the here and now, not worrying about 2015.

[Geordie]

Surely the players need to question themselves in Attack also.

Ashton should have pinned his ears back and gone for it...instead of throwing that stupid pass back to Brown (i think)
Also had he done so and been tackled...he still would have had brown outside him to pass too!

Its not a coaches fault if players cant make the correct decisions ON THE PITCH....

Cant blame Parling for some of those throws by youngs...truely bad.

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