England v SA - KO 14:30 Sat 24th NOV at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions

Game 1: Eng v Fiji 54-12 World class performance.
Game 2: Eng v Aus 14-20 We was robbed, by ourselves.
Game 3: Eng v SA ??-??
Game 4: Eng v NZ ??-??

England team to face South Africa:

Alex Goode (Saracens, 4 caps);
Chris Ashton (Saracens, 27 caps),
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 15 caps),
Brad Barritt (Saracens, 9 caps),
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 9 caps);
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps),
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps);
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 16 caps),
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps),
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps),
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 2 caps),
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps),
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 11 caps),
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 10 caps),
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 7 caps).

Replacements: David Paice (London Irish, 4 caps), David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 21 caps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 2 caps), Mouritz Botha (Saracens, 9 caps), James Haskell (London Wasps, 43 caps), Danny Care (Harlequins, 35 caps), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 10 caps), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 3 caps).


South Africa team:
Z Kirchner (Blue Bulls);
JP Pietersen (Sharks),
J de Jongh (Western Province),
J de Villiers (Western Province, captain),
F Hougaard (Blue Bulls);
P Lambie (Sharks),
R Pienaar (Ulster);
G Steenkamp (Toulouse),
A Strauss (Cheetahs),
J du Plessis (Sharks),
E Etzebeth (Western Province),
J Kruger (Blue Bulls),
F Louw (Bath),
W Alberts (Sharks),
D Vermeulen (Western Province).

Replacements: S Brits (Saracens), H van der Merwe (Leinster), P Cilliers (Western Province), F van der Merwe (Blue Bulls), M Coetzee (Sharks), E Jantjies (Golden Lions), J Taute (Golden Lions), L Mvovo (Sharks).

[Breadvan]

I think we did alright.. bar our attack. Agree with Barney, we desperatly need a proven quality offensive co-ordinator, as they say in the NFL.

[eirebilly]

Didnt watch the game, was only reading the updates but is it true that Robshaw went for the 3 points with 2 minutes left while 5 down?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

There is absolutely no evidence of a gameplan in attack.

T Youngs is simply not test quality given he’s got just 1 job he absolutely has to nail.

Our SR is beginning to look decent.

Both Ashton & B Youngs need to get some form at their clubs.

Flood doesn’t like being roughed up.

Morgan’s improving.

Robshaw is not a good tactical captain.

When fit Croft in at 6, Wood to 7, Morgan/Haskell at 8.

Pretty sure you need to be able to catch and hold the ball to play rugby.

We must lobby the IRB to prevent God getting involved in future test games.

SL absolutely has to get a proven world class attack coach.

There is absolutely no evidence of a gameplan in attack.

Add in that Owen Farrell has no business being in the England set up currently. Nor Vunipola in the senior squad. Nor Brown anywhere near the wing.

This was a poor SA side who did their best to hand the game to England. I guess whilst we can rightly slate SLs inability to get Englands backs into any kind of organised meaningful attacking force SA are arguably even worse there....but then they arent picking a side fukll of runners, they are picking to play to a plan that works for them.
If all England have is workrate form the forwards and a couple of guys who can exploit mistakes form the opposition then why bother with the rest of the game...pick a bunch of tacklers and kickers play territory and stop wasting Brown, Youngs and Floods talents.

#rant

[GavinDragon]

only saw the last 30mins nd a neutral so my take on what i saw...

South Africa offered nothing in attack...

England matched them in most facets of the game (bar lineout) and just lacked a cretive spark in the backs to really unlock the saffa defence.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Didnt watch the game, was only reading the updates but is it true that Robshaw went for the 3 points with 2 minutes left while 5 down?

There was 3 minutes...but by the time hed stopped arguing with Farrell and asking the ref what he should do there was only 2

What made even less sense was only a few minutes before theyd turned down a kickable chance

[mystiroakey]

4 down billy!!

[Guest]

Two words to summarize each team,
South Africa- tired and slow.

England- impotent and lateral.

[eirebilly]

Thats a shame that he did that then. So close to the end of a match and down by +3 points should always mean kick for corner.

Not the best leadership. I was really hoping for an England win today as well. I was certain they would out muscle SA.

[majesticimperialman]

WHY!!!!!

I totaly agrre with you theer. WHY! ! !

Wrong decision by Robshaw.

But again England lose because "FLOOD" did not kick his goals.

Was it 6 point he cost England?

Well played SA though. A tough game for both teams.

[Hood83]

There is absolutely no evidence of a gameplan in attack.

T Youngs is simply not test quality given he’s got just 1 job he absolutely has to nail.

Our SR is beginning to look decent.

Both Ashton & B Youngs need to get some form at their clubs.

Flood doesn’t like being roughed up.

Morgan’s improving.

Robshaw is not a good tactical captain.

When fit Croft in at 6, Wood to 7, Morgan/Haskell at 8.

Pretty sure you need to be able to catch and hold the ball to play rugby.

We must lobby the IRB to prevent God getting involved in future test games.

SL absolutely has to get a proven world class attack coach.

There is absolutely no evidence of a gameplan in attack.

Add in that Owen Farrell has no business being in the England set up currently. Nor Vunipola in the senior squad. Nor Brown anywhere near the wing.

This was a poor SA side who did their best to hand the game to England. I guess whilst we can rightly slate SLs inability to get Englands backs into any kind of organised meaningful attacking force SA are arguably even worse there....but then they arent picking a side fukll of runners, they are picking to play to a plan that works for them.
If all England have is workrate form the forwards and a couple of guys who can exploit mistakes form the opposition then why bother with the rest of the game...pick a bunch of tacklers and kickers play territory and stop wasting Brown, Youngs and Floods talents.

#rant

All these points are bang on. This SA team missed Bekker, Bismarck and Burger. Think what the damage might have been

[eirebilly]

Oh well, onto the Wales match soon. Sadly i expect a thumping for them.

[AlastairW]

Oh dear the knives are going to be out for Robshaw. Well played South Africa, a ground out win.

I think CR's on field management was good, but there are areas we can definatley improve on and these AI's have shown we can't cut it with the top 3 as yet.

Let's not forget before assembling the Robshaw lynch mob that there were missed pens and shaky line outs. We made plenty of errors before a call 3 minutes from the bell.

For me, we're still less than a year out of a brand new team and i have faith.

[Hood83]

Not his fault, but Brown on the wing was an utter failure.

Picked for his boot but found out positionally.

[anotherworldofpain]

Very close. England the better team on the day, and unlucky with the SA try. SA played clever game management from there on in and ENG could not match it!. Again descent in the ranks, and again poor captaincy from Robshaw. Agree Farrell is pants and the ENG backline can't pass.

[belovedfrosties]

Youngs is still a relatively inexperienced hooker, admittedly he should be throwing straight, its criminal not to but he is playing in his 3rd test and will improve. His work around the loose and in the rucks has been brilliant, with Hartley back we have a good starting hooker and an excellent impact one.

I agree with you Barney on a lot of things and to me, attack has yet again let us down. I was devastated when Wayne SMith turned us down, as with him i thought we truly had a coaching team that would have moved us up several gears.

Second row was great, Parling made lots of carries and always seemed to make yards by running into space, and not whoever is in front of him!!! Launchberry was brilliant for a test starter, got all over the place and matched the bok power. If Lawes gets fit and hits his form again, we have the makings of a great 2nd row and good subs.

Morgan looked good and shows why we should stay with him and develop him further. Would like to see B. Vunipola brought in to the EPS over Waldrom come january, but we'll see.

Care isn't hitting his Quins form where he has been sensational, Youngs just isn't hitting his form full stop.

Tuilagi was better, used more sparingly and ended up having a greater effect. Decent pass to Ashton, and i was hoping that brown would come in and do a wrap around with Ashton to set him free down the wing. Instead he stayed out wide and Ashtons pass wasn;t the greatest. Had Sharples been there, who knows what may have happened.

Back 3 were decent enough, Goode was strong under the highball, Ashton went looking for work and was solid enough in defence. Brown took some highballs and always made yards in little space. The 2 fullbacks also made some nice linebreaks.

Robshaw

[Morgannwg]

SL is doing well in the post match interview.

[Hood83]

Oh dear the knives are going to be out for Robshaw. Well played South Africa, a ground out win.

I think CR's on field management was good, but there are areas we can definatley improve on and these AI's have shown we can't cut it with the top 3 as yet.

Let's not forget before assembling the Robshaw lynch mob that there were missed pens and shaky line outs. We made plenty of errors before a call 3 minutes from the bell.

For me, we're still less than a year out of a brand new team and i have faith.

Agreed, well done to SA who must have been knackered frankly. A fine effort.

But entirely disagree. Currently our set piece is a complete lottery - good one week, poor the next. Our kicking game is woeful. Our basic handling skills awful. Our ball carrying rubbish...etc etc.

Yeah I'm whinging but what on earth from the last few performances or from SL gives you faith?

[protea438]

Very close. England the better team on the day, and unlucky with the SA try. SA played clever game management from there on in and ENG could not match it!. Again descent in the ranks, and again poor captaincy from Robshaw. Agree Farrell is pants and the ENG backline can't pass.

Well if England were the better team they should have won.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Any captain who cant talk a ref into giving a yellow when the opposition has conceded 18 penalties (and been given 3 warnings for persitant infringement) isnt worth his salt.

Inexperienced and clueless. A couple of the guys who came on dont look like they have big match brains either or just arent ready yet.

Its frustarting because we clealry do have players capable of taking on SA and Australia ... its the first time in an age we've really been close to SA and frankly they did try to chuck the game to us.

Its a shadow of the teams they sent over in 2008 and 2010, and nothing like the one that humped us in 2007.

[mattygoat]

we won the post match interview

Does anyone else think that Nigel Owens should have been quicker warn the South Africans about the number of penalties

[Hood83]

Very close. England the better team on the day, and unlucky with the SA try. SA played clever game management from there on in and ENG could not match it!. Again descent in the ranks, and again poor captaincy from Robshaw. Agree Farrell is pants and the ENG backline can't pass.

Spot on. We were pish in so many areas. As usual. Slightly more pleased with the physicality - against a tired and injury depleted Bok team.

[Guest]

At least England won the Anthems, well so reckon the SKY crew.

Also this who witch hunt on Robshaw is just stupid, what more could he do?
I he said kick for corner and no points came he would have been blasted,
the like of Barnes would have said take the points win the kick off and get back down field!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

SL is doing well in the post match interview.

Whats he said

" At least Im better than Howley ...LOL Wales"

" Yeah maybe you shouldve employed someone that professional attack coaches were willing to work with"

"Dont worry I have a headline grabbing if someone meangliess pep talk with the womens rythmic gymnastics coach and Lance Armstrong planned for next week"

"Heres my letter of resignation"

[Morgannwg]

He refused to single out his captain in spite of the reporter who kept probing him. Thought everything else he said was honest and accurate. Stood out for me. I think he's a good coach and yes he is 100 times better than the Howler.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

So kind of like the sort of interview Johnosn used to give and get murdered for then?

[AlastairW]

Also this who witch hunt on Robshaw is just stupid, what more could he do?
I he said kick for corner and no points came he would have been blasted

Well said View. I just wanted Barnes to shut his mouth for 80 minutes straight, Robshaw misses one tackle and made a call that was as close to catch 22 as a you can make and he totally ignores the other 79 minutes of utter graft. i really dislike that guy.

And as you say, he was lambasted last week for not taking the posts, and he was put in a nigh on lose/lose situation this week. I might pass on reading the 'news' this week as i have no doubt our dipstick 'journo's' will be rubbing their hands together having a field day putting the boot into a home nations team less than a year out the gate.

[Guest]

Think the SKY team pre match analysis was cringe worthy,
Will Greenwood and Clive giving the run down on the big screen on what they used to do was cringe worthy!
What difference showing what they used to do, help England with what they need to do right now? the game is almost unrecognizable from a decade ago.

Also well done Italy today,they lost but a respectful score line against the Aussies

[Guest]

Also this who witch hunt on Robshaw is just stupid, what more could he do?
I he said kick for corner and no points came he would have been blasted

Well said View. I just wanted Barnes to shut his mouth for 80 minutes straight, Robshaw misses one tackle and made a call that was as close to catch 22 as a you can make and he totally ignores the other 79 minutes of utter graft. i really dislike that guy.

And as you say, he was lambasted last week for not taking the posts, and he was put in a nigh on lose/lose situation this week. I might pass on reading the 'news' this week as i have no doubt our dipstick 'journo's' will be rubbing their hands together having a field day putting the boot into a home nations team less than a year out the gate.

[thomh]

In fairness, I don't think anyone would have criticised Robshaw if he'd gone to the corner and not come up with the points. It wasn't the same scenario as last week's at all. It was a real long shot that we'd have got all the way up the pitch without losing possession to get a drop goal.

[AlastairW]

But entirely disagree. Currently our set piece is a complete lottery - good one week, poor the next. Our kicking game is woeful. Our basic handling skills awful. Our ball carrying rubbish...etc etc.

Yeah I'm whinging but what on earth from the last few performances or from SL gives you faith?

10 months ago we were scoring lucky charge down tries in the 6N. Last few weeks we pushed the world no.2 & 3. You're looking for a really quick turn around, this isn't week in/week out club play.

It's not all washing clean for sure, set peice inconsistent, kicking wasn't dire but not exactley great either. I just think it's too soon to call this England team a failure, of course a lose at home stings, but there is progress for last 6N to now and mud slinging isn't going to help. That's just my opinion though.

[mystiroakey]

thomh i agree with ya no one would have complained had egland kicked corner/..

anyway i am not gonna concentrate on the what ifs- there was alot of them in this game tbh.. but we have been on the winning side of these type of games before.. its all about the wins however they come- alot of positives for england in the fact they never ever give up.. but thats it- our handling was shocking but our game actually looked ten times more expanise than SA

[thomh]

The conditions will have played a big part in that though.

On a positive note, Launchbury looks ace.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Also this who witch hunt on Robshaw is just stupid, what more could he do?
I he said kick for corner and no points came he would have been blasted

Well said View. I just wanted Barnes to shut his mouth for 80 minutes straight, Robshaw misses one tackle and made a call that was as close to catch 22 as a you can make and he totally ignores the other 79 minutes of utter graft. i really dislike that guy.

And as you say, he was lambasted last week for not taking the posts, and he was put in a nigh on lose/lose situation this week. I might pass on reading the 'news' this week as i have no doubt our dipstick 'journo's' will be rubbing their hands together having a field day putting the boot into a home nations team less than a year out the gate.

Youre missing the point completely. the decisions were very very different, made at different points in the games. the panic in his expression was visible, his players were telling him it was wrong but yes he clealry had been affected by the roasting he got from the press ....thats not the presses fault its his for not having the strength of character, experience and clarity of thought to make sensible decisions. That he spent a whole minute asking questions and flapping like a beached porpoise on both the late penalties made the situation even worse.
As for his all round performance it was more than the one (bad) missed tackle, there was the stupid penalty early on as well as various handling errors and other things..but yeah he was by no means the worst player out there and was busy. But as a capatin he failed to work the ref, he failed to use Englands dominance in the scrum and he appears to have lost the confidence of his own team.

But then who else could be captain? Steve Borthwicks not retired
He'll keep it

[anotherworldofpain]

"Is it too late to change the decision ref?" says it all...

[Hood83]

"Is it too late to change the decision ref?" says it all...

Ha, i actually cringed on hearing that. Beginning to feel sorry for Robshaw. He's going to get a pasting, quite rightly.

[AlastairW]

Fair do's PSW

As for the press though, i really do despise them, i saw that as a direct affect of their armchair muckings around for the short term sensaionalist story on a player on the field. Maybe you're right, maybe i am. That issue is a matter of perception and we could all come up with a different answer.

Anyways, time for me to go off for a most (un)enjoyable dinner with a gloating South African Have fun all.

[Hood83]

But entirely disagree. Currently our set piece is a complete lottery - good one week, poor the next. Our kicking game is woeful. Our basic handling skills awful. Our ball carrying rubbish...etc etc.

Yeah I'm whinging but what on earth from the last few performances or from SL gives you faith?

10 months ago we were scoring lucky charge down tries in the 6N. Last few weeks we pushed the world no.2 & 3. You're looking for a really quick turn around, this isn't week in/week out club play.

It's not all washing clean for sure, set peice inconsistent, kicking wasn't dire but not exactley great either. I just think it's too soon to call this England team a failure, of course a lose at home stings, but there is progress for last 6N to now and mud slinging isn't going to help. That's just my opinion though.

Fair enough, we'll agree to disagree. I never wanted SL in the first place and don't rate a number of his selections, so i'm pre-programmed to see him as a failure. Just feel he's proving me right.

[HammerofThunor]

"Is it too late to change the decision ref?" says it all...

Yes it did. I didn't know whether to or when he said that.

[Big]

He refused to single out his captain in spite of the reporter who kept probing him. Thought everything else he said was honest and accurate. Stood out for me. I think he's a good coach and yes he is 100 times better than the Howler.

No brainer really though. Better squad to hand yet lost by a larger margin to worse teams. It's really frustrating as I had thought that this year the NH might start to catch up with the SH (bar NZ). England and Wales really challenged in the summer tests, even if they did only get one draw between them I don't think any of the games were won by more than a score. I expected both sides to try and step up again, but instead they have regressed and totally failed to take the benefit of home advantage. I'd love it if England won next week, and Wales tonight or next week - but it's pretty hard to imagine that happening right now.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

"Is it too late to change the decision ref?" says it all...

Jesus I missed that. Tell you what if Owens was worth his Welsh nationalty he wouldve replied

"Well I can give them the penalty if you really want Chris"

[Geordie]

Ah no need for doom and gloom.

A few things we knew we're problems still are...but some things to. When we actually got a head of.steam up...we were all over them...but decision making continues to be an issue. Why Ashton passed instead of pinning his ears back...I have no idea.

Morgan and youngs huge pluses...bar youngs lineout which NEEDS to be fixed urgently. Parling.and launchbury were excellent. We shouldn't have lost that game likewise the oz game.

[Duty281]

This game shouldn't have been lost, the difference between the teams is a very lucky try following two deflections. Even then we had chances, but were far too static in attack again. I thought the Saffers were extremely lucky towards the end not to have a player binned - how many warnings did Owen give? And then right at the end, a stupid call from Robshaw cost us any chance of victory, we could have been 5m out against a creaking South African line. Does he have the right nouse and decision-making ability to be captain? He was clearly influenced by the press and when he chose to kick for goal, he later asked Nigel Owens if he could change his mind! Idiotic decision.

Overall, a massively encouraging display to follow last weeks. By the time the Six Nations roll around, we can start turning that potential and promise into results.

[Duty281]

The stats are very encouraging. England had more possession and territory, better at the scrum, better disciplined, better at the ruck, had less missed tackles and had more offloads and line breaks than the Saffers.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

...and lost

[Geordie]

Exactly Pete. So frustrating....but not.doom and gloom.

We're not far off....a little.bit more intelligence...launchbury etc coming in. Morgan showed he can do it. Parling impressed me, Goode was good...and I don't.get.the brown critics...yes I wouldn't have him on the.wing but.he was excellent.

Intelligence and taking.chances which will come...ok think we'll win the.6n.

[eirebilly]

Watching the England match highlights now, they dont look too bad.

[HERSH]

Great performance England.

Well played boys, but please try harder next time!

[Barney McGrew did it]

Come the 6Ns we're going to be very competitive. But look, both Aus and SA were very average this autumn and if we can't get even one result from them then this series is a resounding failure. I'm sick of waiting til tomorrow for an accomplished performance. I think SL has to take some flak from dodgy selection against Aus and non-existant attacking performance in both games. Poor old Nobshaw's penalty call was wrong (possibly down to the extra pressure he heaped on himself from last week's debacle) and he gifted SA a 3-pointer from an early scrum bind mistake right in front of our posts), Flood missed a straightforward penalty - another 3 points (I rate Flood but he loses his bottle when the oppo beat him up), and T Youngs can't cope when the opposition compete at the LO (you can't win a tight game if you can't win your own set-piece). Fortunately our next game is the ABs and if they play like they did for the last 15 mins today we should be able to keep the points difference down to 20.

[HERSH]

We need 36.

[mystiroakey]

i agree barney- but i have a feeling we are gonna do NZ which will make it a success! why everyone will think i am in fantsy land- but i think we can beat em up.

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