England v SA - KO 14:30 Sat 24th NOV at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions

Game 1: Eng v Fiji 54-12 World class performance.
Game 2: Eng v Aus 14-20 We was robbed, by ourselves.
Game 3: Eng v SA ??-??
Game 4: Eng v NZ ??-??

England team to face South Africa:

Alex Goode (Saracens, 4 caps);
Chris Ashton (Saracens, 27 caps),
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 15 caps),
Brad Barritt (Saracens, 9 caps),
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 9 caps);
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps),
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps);
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 16 caps),
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps),
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps),
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 2 caps),
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps),
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 11 caps),
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 10 caps),
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 7 caps).

Replacements: David Paice (London Irish, 4 caps), David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 21 caps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 2 caps), Mouritz Botha (Saracens, 9 caps), James Haskell (London Wasps, 43 caps), Danny Care (Harlequins, 35 caps), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 10 caps), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 3 caps).


South Africa team:
Z Kirchner (Blue Bulls);
JP Pietersen (Sharks),
J de Jongh (Western Province),
J de Villiers (Western Province, captain),
F Hougaard (Blue Bulls);
P Lambie (Sharks),
R Pienaar (Ulster);
G Steenkamp (Toulouse),
A Strauss (Cheetahs),
J du Plessis (Sharks),
E Etzebeth (Western Province),
J Kruger (Blue Bulls),
F Louw (Bath),
W Alberts (Sharks),
D Vermeulen (Western Province).

Replacements: S Brits (Saracens), H van der Merwe (Leinster), P Cilliers (Western Province), F van der Merwe (Blue Bulls), M Coetzee (Sharks), E Jantjies (Golden Lions), J Taute (Golden Lions), L Mvovo (Sharks).

[thomh]

Only the second test was total nightmare for Steyn. Obviously I don't think we'll win this weekend, but we could push them reasonably close.

[Guest]

Not much was mentioned on 606 last week about the Aussie jibe at England's pretty boys behind the pack,
made me chuckle, the Aussies love sarcasm .

But nothing compared to the laughter that followed after Tobias Flood took it as a compliment and felt the need to comment about it to the press.

Does the lad see something we don't when he looks in the mirror?

To make my point i showed the missus and her friend a picture of him, they thought he looked and i quote "simple" "eww" "look at his ears"

[DaveM]

I would suspect the first two would be substantially different Thomh

But in the third game England matched them. Saturday is the chance to show they learnt lessons. I like the look of the pack we're likely to put out this week - I think we'll win, particularly if we can get the back play right.

[Hood83]

I would suspect the first two would be substantially different Thomh

But in the third game England matched them. Saturday is the chance to show they learnt lessons. I like the look of the pack we're likely to put out this week - I think we'll win, particularly if we can get the back play right.

When they didn't have Alberts. We need to stop him on the gainline. I don't know how but it starts there.

[Omelette]

lol, some of you people on here make me laugh. If you had it your way we'd have a different team each week because the last 15 had a single bad game.

Well your only as good as your last game

I wouldnt change loads...only a few...but as i said above it looks to me as though Lancs has had a plan to give certain members of the squad a certain number of games each this AI to see how they go...

v


I really think (hope) that this is not the case. This is international rugby, you don't go sharing out caps and pre determining selection, surely. I hope SL sits down every week and works out which team gives England the best chance of victory in the next game (from the players he thinks will still be available at the next world cup) then picks them.

I understand that by brining in fresh players, this may give us a better chance of victory, but surely this is done on a week by week basis and not something thought up in September/October.

[HERSH]

Can someone tell me why the BBC are using a picture of an overweight England fan as the main picture for their article?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20396722

[AlastairW]

Can someone tell me why the BBC are using a picture of an overweight England fan as the main picture for their article?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20396722

He looks like he's lost the Fat Controller. Poor Thomas.

[HERSH]

Life hasn't been kind to Mr Blobby since the end of Noels House Party

Spot the difference.

http://cakeheadlovesevil.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/snn1533bl-580_1__908443a.jpg?w=490

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20396722

[Guest]

Meanwhile, Lancaster says that Steffon Armitage isn't fit enough to play for England!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9689056/England-v-South-Africa-Stuart-Lancaster-to-freshen-up-after-Australia-loss-but-Chris-Robshaw-holds-captaincy.html

Remember Steffon also plays behind a dominant pack and is operating on front-foot ball. When you’re not on the front foot, running around for 80 minutes at high intensity, you’ve got to be fit.

[HERSH]

Maybe SL runs a pie shop on the side and Waldrom is his best customer?

[Geordie]

lol, some of you people on here make me laugh. If you had it your way we'd have a different team each week because the last 15 had a single bad game.

Well your only as good as your last game

I wouldnt change loads...only a few...but as i said above it looks to me as though Lancs has had a plan to give certain members of the squad a certain number of games each this AI to see how they go...

v


I really think (hope) that this is not the case. This is international rugby, you don't go sharing out caps and pre determining selection, surely. I hope SL sits down every week and works out which team gives England the best chance of victory in the next game (from the players he thinks will still be available at the next world cup) then picks them.

I understand that by brining in fresh players, this may give us a better chance of victory, but surely this is done on a week by week basis and not something thought up in September/October.

Ordinarily i would completely agree with you...you should give out free caps...however in this case maybe its a sensible idea...whos no.1 8 Morgan or Waldrom...we have numerous flankers....we need to see which ones can actually hack this level....etc...i wouldnt blame him if he was using these AI's to identify these question marks over players. If this was the case then i think Lancs is using these AI's intelligently...but its just a shame he hasnt given Garvey a shot...

[RubyGuby]

Maybe SL runs a pie shop on the side and Waldrom is his best customer?

[Omelette]

I also think he must have said in the squad get togethers he would give people games..ie Waldrom gets the first two then goes back to leicester then Morgan gets the next two ...likewise Haskell / Johnson etc etc...

[code]

Geordiefalcon,

Maybe this is more the part I was disagreeing with.

While I agree with you that we will only find out about these players through selecting them and therefore, I whole heartedly agree with a certain amount of rotation. Especially when it seems there is so little to chose between players. The part I was disagreeing with is that it was predetermined. I really hope it was not, for instance had Waldron had a shocker vs Fiji, I hope Morgan would have come straight in. Likewise had he played a blinder in a 50-0 thrashing of the Aussies (chance would be a fine thing) I hope he would have stayed in.

I agree that all players that look like they may have the class need to be given a chance between world cups. I just think this 'you have the first two games and you have the second two' doesn't fit with international rugby. It sounds a bit like when you were at school and little johnny had to come on at half time in the away games regardless of performance because he had turned up and sat on the coach for an hour.

I'm not attacking your theory, just maybe the method. Of at least this is how I hope it goes in lancasters England.

[Geordie]

Well maybe Omlette,

WHo knows. It just struck odd to me that they pushed so hard to get Morgan...whos had a good season..yet for the first two games he is sent back to his club...then lo behold...after the first two games Morgan is selected and Waldrom is returned to his club...likewise Johnson/Haskell...etc

Coincidence? Maybes...maybe not...

[bluestonevedder]

I think the England squad for South Africa pretty much picks itself now that it's been whittled down to 24 guys.

The only possible issue I see is whether the centres will be 12. Barritt 13. Joseph with Manu on the wing, or 12. Barritt 13. Manu, with Jospeh on the wing....hmmmm...

It might be too much too fast to switch Manu onto the wing for our biggest game yet, but it is a radical possibility!

Haskell's a great bench option, covering all 3 backrow positions, and I'd fully expect him to replace Morgan at 8 around the 60 minute mark. Robshaw won't be replaced unless he's injured, and Wood's got a motor that just doesn't quit so will be expected to last the 80 I reckon.

Wood really impressed me when he came on against Oz. He was the only forward that actually seemed up for causing a bit of physcial damage to the opposition. Long may it continue.

Please no Botha. He's not an enforcer

My matchday squad:

1. Corbs
2. Youngs
3. Cole.
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

9. Care
10. Flood
11. Joseph/Manu
12. Barritt
13. Manu/Joseph
14. Ashton
15. Goode

16. Paice
17. Vunipola
18. Wilson
19. Haskell
20. Youngs
21. Palmer
22. Brown
23. Farrell

[Omelette]

Yes, the Morgan selection/non selection was odd. You think that their might have been something more to that. But I think it was more a kick up the backside than anything. I think even the management know Waldron is a short term answer and are maybe just using him as a pawn a little.

But your guess is as good as mine...

[Biltong]

Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer named an unchanged starting line-up on Wednesday for their final Test of the season, against England at Twickenham on Saturday.

He retained the team that defeated Scotland, 21-10, last weekend with JP Pietersen and Gurthrö Steenkamp, cleared for selection after treatment of niggling injuries.

The only changes are on the bench, where Pat Cilliers comes in for the injured CJ van der Linde and Elton Jantjies replaces Morné Steyn.

Springbok captain Jean de Villiers will become the fifth most-capped Springbok of all time and most-capped member of the 2012 squad when he plays in his 84th Test.

De Villiers will pass Bryan Habana on 83 caps to move into fifth place behind John Smit (111), Victor Matfield (110), Percy Montgomery (102) and Joost van der Westhuizen (89).

“I’m very chuffed for Jean,” said Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer.

“He took over the captaincy in a challenging year and has been a rock in our team. The fact that Jean has played in every Test this season, and finished all of them, is testimony to his amazing resilience and work ethic.

“Jean has been the glue that has kept our team together and for that I salute him.”

The total number of Test caps in the starting team for the last Test of the Castle Outgoing Tour in 2012 is 431 – 158 in the forwards and 273 in the backline.

“It’s great to be able to field an unchanged team,” said Meyer.

“We’ve been able to show some consistency in selection on this tour and that is a good thing. The players have worked extremely hard on the training field and it wasn’t easy to select the match 23 for each of the three Tests, but I’m happy that we managed to stick to combinations.”

“The plan was always to give Elton a run on the tour. He’s shown earlier in the season that he can play Test rugby. It’s also good for his development as a player to experience the conditions here and to play in front of a big crowd like Twickenham,” said Meyer.

The Springbok team to face England in London is:

Position Name Province Test Caps
15 Zane Kirchner Vodacom Blue Bulls 23
14 JP Pietersen The Sharks 47
13 Juan de Jongh DHL Western Province 13
12 Jean de Villiers (captain) DHL Western Province 83
11 Francois Hougaard Vodacom Blue Bulls 26
10 Pat Lambie The Sharks 19
9 Ruan Pienaar Ulster, Northern Ireland 62
8 Duane Vermeulen DHL Western Province 6
7 Willem Alberts The Sharks 19
6 Francois Louw Bath, England 16
5 Juandré Kruger Vodacom Blue Bulls 7
4 Eben Etzebeth DHL Western Province 10
3 Jannie du Plessis The Sharks 41
2 Adriaan Strauss (vice-captain) Toyota FS Cheetahs 20
1 Gurthrö Steenkamp Toulouse, France 39
Replacements
16 Schalk Brits Saracens, England 4
17 Heinke van der Merwe Leinster, Ireland 3
18 Pat Cilliers DHL Western Province 5
19 Flip van der Merwe Vodacom Blue Bulls 22
20 Marcell Coetzee The Sharks 11
21 Elton Jantjies MTN Golden Lions 2
22 Jaco Taute MTN Golden Lions 3
23 Lwazi Mvovo The Sharks 7

[Omelette]

Personally eddy, I think that Manu will either start at thirteen with barritt at 12 and JJ on the wing or at 12 with JJ at 13 and brown on the wing.

I don't see Manu being selected on the wing at all.

Otherwise I agree with your selection. We shall see I guess.

[Geordie]

Vedder

Wood really impressed me when he came on against Oz. He was the only forward that actually seemed up for causing a bit of physcial damage to the opposition

Thats the interesting thing...He is classed as a lightweight lineut 6....yet when we got obliterated by Ireland a few years back...he was the only one who stood up to them physically....and he just has that presence...dare i compare him to Juan Smith? Just a great alround flanker.
If he can get a steady continuous run...he could really show how good he is ...and he can call the lineout allowing us to play a more physical second row...

[Geordie]

Pietersen and Alberts had a field day in the summer...we HAVE to control them....

[bluestonevedder]

Personally eddy, I think that Manu will either start at thirteen with barritt at 12 and JJ on the wing or at 12 with JJ at 13 and brown on the wing.

I don't see Manu being selected on the wing at all.

Otherwise I agree with your selection. We shall see I guess.

That's interesting Omlette. I hadn't thought of a 12. Manu 13. Joseph partnership with Brown on the wing. I guess SL could do what he did in the summer and play a FB at wing to neutralise the high ball threat? Worked pretty well to be honest.

Like you say, we'll see!

I'm very happy with his reduced squad though- shows he's not afraid to drop underperforming players.

[bluestonevedder]

Vedder

Wood really impressed me when he came on against Oz. He was the only forward that actually seemed up for causing a bit of physcial damage to the opposition

Thats the interesting thing...He is classed as a lightweight lineut 6....yet when we got obliterated by Ireland a few years back...he was the only one who stood up to them physically....and he just has that presence...dare i compare him to Juan Smith? Just a great alround flanker.
If he can get a steady continuous run...he could really show how good he is ...and he can call the lineout allowing us to play a more physical second row...

He's definitely a class act GF. Really like the guy too. He's pretty uncompromising when it comes to the dirty work, but he's very good in space too and has an excellent turn of pace. So glad to see him back in the squad. Hopefully he'll provide some grit!

Would love to see at backrow of 6. Wood 7. Robshaw 8. Haskell at some point on Saturday.

[Geordie]

I'd be more than happy with
1 Corbs / Marler
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Lawes (suspect Parling due to Lawes not fit yet)
5 Launchbury
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

[Omelette]

I agree with the wood sentiments, I actually see him as robshaw's biggest threat for both a starting shirt and for the captaincy in the future.

Yes Eddie, that's my take on why he would do that with brown on the wing... His massive boot. Although if I were a betting man I think Lancaster will go with 12. Barritt, 13. Manu with JJ on the wing, for barritts defensive capabilities.

My biggest concern, as someone mention earlier, is that there are 4 second rows retained. I hope this doesn't mean he thinks launchbury can cover back row and names all 4 in the match squad. Maybe he think we need the extra physicality against Alberts et al.

Again I really hope this is not the case and its just as an injury precaution...

[bluestonevedder]

Oh I definitely think that backrow will start GF, but like I said above, I think Haskell will come on at 8 around 50-60mins.

Definitely looks like the front 5 of the future!

[Geordie]

Omlette

Surely Launchbury must start at SR. All of us fans can see he is far ahead of Palmer and Botha....especially with Lawes not fit....Lawes and Launchbury now thats a Second Row id like to see have a run out...

[Omelette]

Agree 100% Geordiefalcon (for some reason your name makes me think of an all Geordie Star Wars, that I would pay to see...).

I'm just saying my worst fears in an attempt to put the mockers on them early. The old reverse psychology trick.

Why is Botha retained though, has anyone heard anything about any injury concerns?

[bluestonevedder]

Struggling to find why he's there too. Hopefully, because he's a big, aggressive South African he's good to train against and prepare!

[EnglishReign]

Is Lawes really that good? Never been convinced.

[Omelette]

That's a good point, maybe he is also there to teach the lineout boys the dialect the South Africans will use in a hope we can break their codes and take apart their lineout.

[Omelette]

Englishreign, I don't know how good 'that good' is.

What I think most people will agree with though is he has potential and with a lack of alternatives that are in their prime and lots better, many would like to see him given a run of games. Injury permitting.

Hence Geordie falcon said he would like to see him given a go with launchbury. He didn't say 'if lawes and launchbury are given a go they will soon be the best ever. Fact'

Sorry to be blunt, just annoys me when people are attacked for something they never said. Although I'm sure Geordie can fight his own battles.

[Guest]

The logic behind england's No. 8 selection explained here.

[HERSH]

BREAKING NEWS: Lancaster admits England number eight selections based on ordering wrong sized shirts
England coach Stuart Lancaster has revealed he has no option to select anyone but Ben Morgan or Thomas Waldron at number eight for England as the RFU ordered only XXXXL size shirts from kit maker Canterbury for the Autumn series.

“There is nobody else in the professional game who would fit into those shirts,” said Lancaster. “Hopefully we’ll get some new shirts by the Six Nations and increase our options. Until then we’ll rotate these guys.”

Very good.

[Geordie]

Omelette

English reign..i too have had my doubts about Lawes...ive always felt he was caught between being the "enforcer" and the "lineout" guy without being a specialist at either...and his lineout wasnt that good.

However ive watched him closely recently and i believe his lineout has come on a lot...and matched with his immense defence and work in close...i think he now is a very good second row...that has only been stopped from progressing further by this frustrating string of injuries.

Now my thoughts are..lineout is still a critical area...so by playing Launchbury who is another physical guy who is still strong in the lineout and Wood in the back row...who is a very good jumper and can call the lineout...then we have a physical edge to the engine room...yet still have a strong lineout..

Ok thats just my take on it..

NB...Apologies for sounding like a broken down record player but Id still take the opportunity to have a look at Garvey aswell...

[gregortree]

RETAINED

FORWARDS (14)
Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
David Paice (London Irish)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
BACKS (10)

Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

[sickofwendy]

Botha retained as parling has a niggle

[Omelette]

cheers for the update, although with Parling seen as the lineout man, and Botha certainly not, you would have thought it more logical to retain robson. Guess this means they trust Wood to run the lineout on his own in test matches...

that could give us a lot of options in the back 5 of the scrum in the future...

[sickofwendy]

Does anyone think it would be a good idea to move croft into the 2nd row.He played there a lot for tigers in '09 including HEC final.4 launchbury 5 croft 6 wood 7 robshaw 8 Morgan.could it work in the future?

[screamingaddabs]

Does anyone think it would be a good idea to move croft into the 2nd row.He played there a lot for tigers in '09 including HEC final.4 launchbury 5 croft 6 wood 7 robshaw 8 Morgan.could it work in the future?

Whilst I wouldn't write that off completely it is lacking a little bit of bulk in the engine room. I really rate Croft and would have him on the flank over all other options if he is fit and on form. He is a player with X-Factor and I think we need that.

[gregortree]

Croft can take some lineout ball - seen him do that, but don't bury him in the engine room, as he is also / mainly needed around the park.

[gregortree]

based on the votes above score should be 16-18

[gregortree]

MAN TESTEngland flanker Tom Wood is relishing the "man test" South Africa will offer in Saturday's Test at Twickenham.
The 26-year-old is set to make his first start since last year's World Cup after recovering from a foot injury.
"James Haskell says that playing South Africans is like a man test," he said. "They look for your biggest guy and get theirs to run at him as hard as he can.

"If you show any fear and back off to any extent you've got a long day at the office. You have to match it head on."

[Omelette]

Would have to say i see croft as a six and only as a six, leave him well out of the engine room. Also agree screaming...

As i have said before i think that long term the real battle in the back row will be between wood and robshaw for both starting shirt and captaincy. although i may be biased because whenever i hear robshaw talk i have to turn the sound down... (i know, i'm insane)

[yappysnap]

Am I the only one that really wasn't impressed by Joseph in SA? he looked well out of his depth.

Don't mind him at 23 to come on with the game hopefully a bit broken up, and he'd probs do better on the wing then 13. But starting is just a recipe for disaster

[Guest]

Am I the only one that really wasn't impressed by Joseph in SA? he looked well out of his depth.

Don't mind him at 23 to come on with the game hopefully a bit broken up, and he'd probs do better on the wing then 13. But starting is just a recipe for disaster

He didn't get enough ball in SA to show what he could do imho.

If he gets to play outside a 12 with geniune distribution skills, or if tuilagi can get his passing better, he could be a real threat.

[sickofwendy]

Would have to say i see croft as a six and only as a six, leave him well out of the engine room. Also agree screaming...

As i have said before i think that long term the real battle in the back row will be between wood and robshaw for both starting shirt and captaincy. although i may be biased because whenever i hear robshaw talk i have to turn the sound down... (i know, i'm insane)

maybe it's time to take the captaincy away from the back row.give it to Dan Cole,he is our only certain starter.I think at the moment we don't know what back row combination works best for us and having our skipper there is a handicap.

[yappysnap]

Am I the only one that really wasn't impressed by Joseph in SA? he looked well out of his depth.

Don't mind him at 23 to come on with the game hopefully a bit broken up, and he'd probs do better on the wing then 13. But starting is just a recipe for disaster

He didn't get enough ball in SA to show what he could do imho.

If he gets to play outside a 12 with geniune distribution skills, or if tuilagi can get his passing better, he could be a real threat.

So why are we playing him in this AI's then??

It does seem like there's a lot of ifs and coulds about the England backline at the moment

[Geordie]

Am I the only one that really wasn't impressed by Joseph in SA? he looked well out of his depth.

Don't mind him at 23 to come on with the game hopefully a bit broken up, and he'd probs do better on the wing then 13. But starting is just a recipe for disaster

He didn't get enough ball in SA to show what he could do imho.

If he gets to play outside a 12 with geniune distribution skills, or if tuilagi can get his passing better, he could be a real threat.

Well surely it falls the same for Tuilagi...?

I havent really seen enough of Joseph yet to be fair......

[yappysnap]

I was contemplating Goode at 12, he has all the attributes to play there and at least now has a little Test experience. He'd do a decent job I bet and give better service to Manu and the wings.

[Omelette]

wendy,

i see what you mean but i actually disagree. Robshaw has proved himself as the captain (although last saturday wasn't his best day at the office in that department), so if he starts let him take the captaincy.

My point is pick the best team then the captain, incidentally the best team may not be the best fifteen players but also need to include a learder i.e. the Brearley effect. However i don't think Robshaw is undroppable because of his leadership.

I have no problem with the captain being selected test by test until we find out who is nailed on to start and a good leader. And as Robshaw in my opinion is definitely deserving of his place for the rest of the A.I's (as wood is playing on the other side, Armitage is not being considered and croft is injured) let him go and toss the coin...

Yappy,

i think the same is true of a lot of the England side not just the midfield... so why not play him and see what he can do, i don't think you can judge a man on two performances...

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