England v SA - KO 14:30 Sat 24th NOV at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions

Game 1: Eng v Fiji 54-12 World class performance.
Game 2: Eng v Aus 14-20 We was robbed, by ourselves.
Game 3: Eng v SA ??-??
Game 4: Eng v NZ ??-??

England team to face South Africa:

Alex Goode (Saracens, 4 caps);
Chris Ashton (Saracens, 27 caps),
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 15 caps),
Brad Barritt (Saracens, 9 caps),
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 9 caps);
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps),
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps);
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 16 caps),
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps),
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps),
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 2 caps),
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps),
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 11 caps),
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 10 caps),
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 7 caps).

Replacements: David Paice (London Irish, 4 caps), David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 21 caps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 2 caps), Mouritz Botha (Saracens, 9 caps), James Haskell (London Wasps, 43 caps), Danny Care (Harlequins, 35 caps), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 10 caps), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 3 caps).


South Africa team:
Z Kirchner (Blue Bulls);
JP Pietersen (Sharks),
J de Jongh (Western Province),
J de Villiers (Western Province, captain),
F Hougaard (Blue Bulls);
P Lambie (Sharks),
R Pienaar (Ulster);
G Steenkamp (Toulouse),
A Strauss (Cheetahs),
J du Plessis (Sharks),
E Etzebeth (Western Province),
J Kruger (Blue Bulls),
F Louw (Bath),
W Alberts (Sharks),
D Vermeulen (Western Province).

Replacements: S Brits (Saracens), H van der Merwe (Leinster), P Cilliers (Western Province), F van der Merwe (Blue Bulls), M Coetzee (Sharks), E Jantjies (Golden Lions), J Taute (Golden Lions), L Mvovo (Sharks).

[Geordie]

I can only see a SA win.

In the summer our first up tackles against the Boks were horrific and we conceded meter after meter over the gainline...we just couldnt cope them...and Ive seen nothing in our defence to say there will be any difference...indeed my clubs defence has looked more organised and aggresive...

And if we show the same carrying ability....the Boks will do exactly as the Aussies did and tackle all day long...knocking us back....

If their kicker does better than Morne Steyn in the summer...then we could be on the end of a serious tonking....

[EngInAuck]

I actually think we will Learn from the loss on the weekend and grind a win out.

But these things need to Happen:

1.JJ come in for Brown on the bench , he offers next to Nothing as a impact Sub. He should be starting or not in the team at all. (And with Goode Preforming well he has some work to do)

2. Sharples needs to trust his inside man, i think i counted about 3 times when Sharples went in for the tackle leaving a overlap. With Manu inside of him he needs to trust he will make the tackle.

3.Manu needs to be given more space and needs to pass more. we saw glimpses of what richard cockerel meant when he said he has the ability to be the best 13 in the world when he played against Fiji. Moving him to the wing is a waste , we have plenty of Exciting wingers and not many talented Centres.

4.We need to take our chances, if 3 points are on offer late into the 2nd half take them ! . The difference between Cares quick take was that England were not desperate for points unlike when Youngs took a quick one.

5. Corbisero needs to be fully fit and play a blinder in the scrum.

7.Wood for Johnson

8. Launchby for Palmer


BELIEVE !

[maestegmafia]

I think England will beat SA. Not convincingly or emphatically but a win is a win. SA have not pushed forward as much as we thought through the RC this summer and England pushed them close in June.

[Geordie]

England pushed them close in June.

The problem is Maesteg ....we DIDNT. If Morne Steyn had found his kicking boots...the scorelines would have looked very different and i think alot of people are forgetting this. We just couldnt cope with their physicality simple as that....and the fact we struggled with Oz on Saturday doesnt fill me with confidence at all.....

[Ozzy3213]

England pushed them close in June.

The problem is Maesteg ....we DIDNT. If Morne Steyn had found his kicking boots...the scorelines would have looked very different and i think alot of people are forgetting this. We just couldnt cope with their physicality simple as that....and the fact we struggled with Oz on Saturday doesnt fill me with confidence at all.....

+1

[Biltong]

I suggest we wait till the Springbok team announcement.

It might be a very depleted side.

Beast has already gone home
Bismarck is not on tour
Etzebeth has been cited
Andries Bekker is a home
Frans Steyn is at home
Habana is at home
JP Pietersen is injured and might not play.

[Warthog]

SA by 15- 22 points.

England will be luck to score a try I reckon. Great time to catch the Boks as they have one eye on the beach, looks like. But I can see nothing other than a Bok victory here- and a handsome one to boot.

[Geordie]

All very well Bilts....but personally i dont want us scrapping to a victory over a depleted Boks team...just gives a false sense of hope.

I want to see how we go against the full strength teams...although having said that..we lost to a depleted Aussie team...

[gregortree]

We were not dominated by Aus, but tripped ouselves up over our own bootlaces.
I agree with Geordie we need a proper test.... this time I hope with our laces tied up and our brains more engaged. We will need to focus a lot more to stand any chance. The Last 1 1/2 games v RSA back in the summer is the minimum attitude to build from on Saturday.

[Biltong]

I honestly think England has a very good chance on the weekend of beating us.

[HERSH]

Should SL drop Ashton?

[bluestonevedder]

We were not dominated by Aus, but tripped ouselves up over our own bootlaces.
I agree with Geordie we need a proper test.... this time I hope with our laces tied up and our brains more engaged. We will need to focus a lot more to stand any chance. The Last 1 1/2 games v RSA back in the summer is the minimum attitude to build from on Saturday.

England also need to just man-up quite frankly. Forwards especially. To often were they driven backwards by an Oz pack that is certainly not one of the largest around. England had a weight advantage, but where did it go?

Play like they're losing the jersey if they don't perform.

[bluestonevedder]

Should SL drop Ashton?

Real tough one to call to be honest. He's certainly very out of form on the international stage too, but he's seen so little ball, it's hard to look good. I'd keep him for this one I reckon.

Sharples has to prove he can defend. Pace alone doesn't cut it at international level.

[gregortree]

Blue
yes, agree we did not ruck through the ball enough, just stood over it, so we did not leverage our bulk advantage with any real velocity.
RSA did that v well in the 2nd test and blew England off the ball.

[bluestonevedder]

Exactly gregortree. It was pretty disheartening to watch.

One thing that really annoyed me was the number of times that when Oz counter-rucked and stole our ball, Care simply stood on by watching and complaining to the ref rather than getting stuck in!

We have to learn to use our forwards effectively, especially if we're wanting to play the brand of rugby we were seemingly trying to on Saturday.

[HERSH]

Care and Youngs are both Poopie IMO, we need someone else at Scrum half.

[gregortree]

We need some forwards competing in front of them.

[HERSH]

If Steffon Armitage was selected would we have won against Aus?

IMO yes.

It's criminal that last years best Top14 player is English and yet he isn't in the squad.

I don't give a flying Frak if he is based in France and can't attend every England training session or get together etc...

He has to be given a chance.

[RubyGuby]

If Steffon Armitage was selected would we have won against Aus?

IMO yes.

It's criminal that last years best Top14 player is from Trinidad but plays for England yet he isn't in the squad.

I don't give a flying Frak if he is based in France and can't attend every England training session or get together etc...

He has to be given a chance.

Just correcting an error for you there Hersh, no need to thank - its what friends are for

[gregortree]

Ruby,
don't go opening that can of worms. One of the best English players used to play on the wing for Wales.. havn't seen him for a while though.

[RubyGuby]

This is me and Hersh having fun - Go North and multiply - errr I mean South

[Big]

Reading the comments pre 17th and post 17th is a tad amusing!

Not really sure what has changed though. We were a couple of silly decisions and/or a dropped ball away from drawing or winning the test against Aus - despite the fact the team played badly, well below their best. And as I see it there's no more reason to assume we will have two bad showings in a row now, than there was to assume Aus would play two bad games in a row after the France match.

So, I for one will stick my neck out and say that I still think England are more than capable of beating South Africa. We pushed them very close through the summer tests, and finished that series with a draw. This time we're at home and yes, perhaps their kicker will have his boots on at the weekend, but they have plenty of other problems to contend with. And while England should be getting better with each game as they get back into the swing of test rugby, South Africa are at the end of a long year and each test is going to be pushing them a little further outside their comfort zone.

Whatever Lancaster has said to the press about supporting his players, I can imagine that they got more than a word or two from him behind closed doors. If not for the decisions made then at the least for the static attacking play. So personally I'm expecting to see more dynamism and a better performance all round next week. I think it's a pretty close call, but for me Englands are favourites for a narrow win on Saturday.

[screamingaddabs]

Everyone thinks it will be close really it seems. I also think it will be close. England need to just keep going in the direction they are. The biggest improvement they need now however is to be clinical and have tactical nous. If they show a bit of nous and are clinical when they get the chances they can and will win. If not then South Africa know how to squeeze out a close game and they will win.

[gregortree]

Needed 3 things: (England)

Dynamic rucking
Accurate handling
Kick the points on offer

Then we will be there Saturday.

[Biltong]

I seriously don't know how to predict this outcome.

As per usual we drop one game per Autumn tour.

We have loads of injuries.

Our finishers and creators in the back line are all injured.

We haven't yet played a full 80 minutes of rugby this year.

We are yet to have more than 50% posession this tour.

Last game, will the guys want to win?

[screamingaddabs]

I seriously don't know how to predict this outcome.

As per usual we drop one game per Autumn tour.

We have loads of injuries.

Our finishers and creators in the back line are all injured.

We haven't yet played a full 80 minutes of rugby this year.

We are yet to have more than 50% posession this tour.

Last game, will the guys want to win?

It almost seems like a game of "who will actually turn up?" doesn't it? If SA turn up fired up and raring to go and England don't they will win. If it's vice versa then England will win. If they BOTH turn up it'll be an awesome game and I think SA will edge it. If they BOTH don't turn up it'll be as boring as the Scotland game, probably with a similar result.

[Big]

It almost seems like a game of "who will actually turn up?" doesn't it? If SA turn up fired up and raring to go and England don't they will win. If it's vice versa then England will win. If they BOTH turn up it'll be an awesome game and I think SA will edge it. If they BOTH don't turn up it'll be as boring as the Scotland game, probably with a similar result.

That got a chuckle out of me! Seems to some it up pretty well. I do think it will be close, but right now I think England have more to prove and will perhaps be that bit more motivated as a result.

[englandglory4ever]

"Sharples has to prove he can defend. Pace alone doesn't cut it at international level."

Spot on. There are plenty if speed merchants about (eg Varndell) but they MUST be able to defend as well. Sharples looks very flaky when up against the big 3 teams.

England have one chance to win and its this :-

At some point in the game the Boks will turn on their power play. It usually lasts about 20 mins. If they score 2 or 3 tries in that period England will be dead and buried. There will be no coming back. So DEFENCE is the key word. If England can live with the power play then its game on.

(But I don't think they can).

[EnglishReign]

"Sharples has to prove he can defend. Pace alone doesn't cut it at international level."

Spot on. There are plenty if speed merchants about (eg Varndell) but they MUST be able to defend as well. Sharples looks very flaky when up against the big 3 teams.

England have one chance to win and its this :-

At some point in the game the Boks will turn on their power play. It usually lasts about 20 mins. If they score 2 or 3 tries in that period England will be dead and buried. There will be no coming back. So DEFENCE is the key word. If England can live with the power play then its game on.

(But I don't think they can).

Calm down, he's only ever played one of them.

[gregortree]

Sharples (the greenhorn) was moved to the 'wrong' wing to make way for Splashton (the veteran) on his preferred wing. May have been better to leave Charlie on his more familiar RW. He did fluff his cover for defending the Aussie try though.

[RubyGuby]

"Sharples has to prove he can defend. Pace alone doesn't cut it at international level."

Spot on. There are plenty if speed merchants about (eg Varndell) but they MUST be able to defend as well. Sharples looks very flaky when up against the big 3 teams.

England have one chance to win and its this :-

At some point in the game the Boks will turn on their power play. It usually lasts about 20 mins. If they score 2 or 3 tries in that period England will be dead and buried. There will be no coming back. So DEFENCE is the key word. If England can live with the power play then its game on.

(But I don't think they can).

I'll be rooting for you EG4E

[EnglishReign]

SELECTED SQUAD:

FORWARDS (14)
Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
David Paice (London Irish)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

BACKS (10)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

The following 11 players have this evening been released back to their clubs.
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)


So Corbs in for Marler, Brown probably taking left wing and Morgan in for Waldrom.

[BamBam]

So Brown is in for his boot and high ball ability .. what about his attacking game, I haven't seen him play wing other than the odd 10 mins or so at the end of the last 2 England games

Looks like 1 of Haskell and Tom Wood are going to start in place of Tom Johnson, that is good news

[gregortree]

England have dropped Thomas Waldrom, Tom Johnson and Charlie Sharples for Saturday's Test against South Africa at Twickenham.
Forward Joe Marler is also out after straining medial ligaments in his knee

Is Charlie the new Tait ? Brutally tossed around by the management ?

[thomh]

England have dropped Thomas Waldrom, Tom Johnson and Charlie Sharples for Saturday's Test against South Africa at Twickenham.
Forward Joe Marler is also out after straining medial ligaments in his knee

Is Charlie the new Tait ? Brutally tossed around by the management ?

The thing with Tait was that he was picked far too early and then dropped far too quickly. Sharples is older and has a few caps now. I don't see that he's being particularly messed around just because he's been dropped for one game. Glad to see Haskell and Morgan around. Will be interesting to see who fills the wing spot. My money's on Brown with one of Barritt or Joseph on the bench.

[thomh]

Interesting that they've retained an extra second row at this stage as well. Wonder if someone's carrying an injury.

[gregortree]

Yesterday's Rooster........
................tomorrow's feather duster ! (credit BBC)

[gregortree]

Back rows:
if not injured now, soon will be ...those Bokke play tough. Good call from SL.

[Geordie]

Great to see Morgan and Haskell back...i hope they give us what we've been missing...

[EnglishReign]

We could see Tuilagi on the wing and JJ at 13, maybe?

[Geordie]

1 Corbs
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Parling
5 Launchbury
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Flood
11 Joseph
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Brown

Who thinks Tuilagi and Joseph could just alternate wing / centre depending on the position, attack defence etc...

[thomh]

I just can't see Lancaster playing Tuilagi on the wing for the first time when we're up against the best kick-chase team in the world.

[Geordie]

I also think he must have said in the squad get togethers he would give people games..ie Waldrom gets the first two then goes back to leicester then Morgan gets the next two ...likewise Haskell / Johnson etc etc...

[hugehandoff]

Geordie has it spot on for me...especially the JJ and MT switch

[nathan]

lol, some of you people on here make me laugh. If you had it your way we'd have a different team each week because the last 15 had a single bad game.

[Zander]

Wood, Robshaw, Morgan is a solid backrow for me although I seem to remember Haskell played well in the final test in South Africa in the summer so he could make a good impact off the bench.

[Hood83]

England pushed them close in June.

The problem is Maesteg ....we DIDNT. If Morne Steyn had found his kicking boots...the scorelines would have looked very different and i think alot of people are forgetting this. We just couldnt cope with their physicality simple as that....and the fact we struggled with Oz on Saturday doesnt fill me with confidence at all.....

+1

+2

[Geordie]

lol, some of you people on here make me laugh. If you had it your way we'd have a different team each week because the last 15 had a single bad game.

Well your only as good as your last game

I wouldnt change loads...only a few...but as i said above it looks to me as though Lancs has had a plan to give certain members of the squad a certain number of games each this AI to see how they go...

[thomh]

England pushed them close in June.

The problem is Maesteg ....we DIDNT. If Morne Steyn had found his kicking boots...the scorelines would have looked very different and i think alot of people are forgetting this. We just couldnt cope with their physicality simple as that....and the fact we struggled with Oz on Saturday doesnt fill me with confidence at all.....

http://www.espnscrum.com/england-tour-2012/rugby/match/154474.html

They only missed one more kick than we did.

[Geordie]

I would suspect the first two would be substantially different Thomh

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