Greatest: Round 2: Choose your 3

Rules and context here:
https://www.606v2.com/t38622-the-greatest-introduction-the-rules

Previous threads here:
https://www.606v2.com/t38819-greatest-round-2-choose-your-15#1753473
https://www.606v2.com/t38887-greatest-round-2-choose-your-11-14
https://www.606v2.com/t38898-greatest-round-2-choose-your-13
https://www.606v2.com/t38921-greatest-round-2-choose-your-12
https://www.606v2.com/t38949-greatest-round-2-choose-your-10
https://www.606v2.com/t38974-greatest-round-2-choose-your-9
https://www.606v2.com/t39002-greatest-round-2-choose-your-8
https://www.606v2.com/t39104-greatest-round-2-choose-your-7
https://www.606v2.com/t39143-greatest-round-2-choose-your-6
https://www.606v2.com/t39533-greatest-round-2-choose-your-4-and-5

Brief:

• Vote for ONE PLAYER in the tighthead position.

• Votes are cancellable so in the event that the votes for the rest of the front row are swinging one way, feel free to change your mind if you wish do so.

• If you feel horribly angered that the shortlisted players are not being played on the 'correct' side of the scrum, please write me a detailed PM explaining your views, including statistics, video footage and a note from the player's mum. Then realise life's too short, delete the e-mail and slap yourself on the side of the head.

• It can be assumed that players in the amateur era would have been just as dominant vis a vis their historical peers if they had followed professional conditioning programmes.

Your shortlist (in no particular order):

1. Olo Brown
New Zealand – 69 caps

The softly spoken Samoan born Olo Brown was an automatic selection under the watchful eye of All Blacks coaches Laurie Mains (1992-95) and John Hart (1996-98) and is generally considered to be one of the lowest profile of the All Blacks Hall of Famers, given his enormous contribution to province and country.

He was the cornerstone of the pack with his technique and straightness of back and was rated by scrummaging experts as one of the technically finest props to play for New Zealand at any time. His provincial and test teammate, Sean Fitzpatrick, swore by his prowess and few scrums anchored by Brown were ever bettered.

He came into rugby despite being a chartered accountant outside of the game. In 1989 Brown was first-choice for Auckland - ousting Peter Fatialofa in the process - and alongside Sean Fitzpatrick and first Steve McDowell - and then Craig Dowd - he was an integral part of the unbreakable front-row which replicated their club form for the All Blacks for the best part of a decade.

He earned his debut for the national side in 1990 when he was summoned for a midweek match in France but he had to wait a further two years for his first Test cap which came against Ireland. He only missed one game for the All Blacks in the next six years - a match against Japan in the 1995 World Cup - and took part in the historic win in South Africa in 1996 and the first three seasons of Super Rugby with the Blues.

In 1998, Brown's career came to a sudden halt when he injured his neck and back in the Tri-Nations Test in South Africa. He was replaced by Kees Meeuws and although Brown never retired - he shied away from the media glare engulfing the sport - he never recovered from the injury.

Brown earned the prestigious honour of being the first All Blacks prop to reach 50 Tests and when his career came to an abrupt halt he was on the 56-cap mark.

Brown has since taken up a career as a lawyer and I suspect has no problem getting his bills paid.

Sample footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXi078jPfFQ

2. Carl Hayman
New Zealand – 45 caps

Widely regarded as one of the world's best tight-heads and one of the finest that New Zealand has ever produced, Carl Hayman became the 1000th All Black when he made his debut as a replacement against Samoa in 2001.

Scrum authorities generally rate him second only to the legendary strong man of the 1960s, Ken Gray, though comparisons between the modern era and those of 30 to 40 years ago have become increasingly difficult. Hayman evoked many memories of Gray, for he, too, was considered too tall and with too long a back to be an ideal prop. Hayman, indeed, was even bigger than Gray: 1.93m (6' 4") as against Gray’s 1.88m (6'2"). But, as with Gray, Hayman’s build did not appear to be too much of a handicap and in recent years there have been other international props with a similar physique.

Hayman’s virtues were a strong scrummaging technique, surprising mobility and nous in the open and, with the radical law changes in lineouts, considerable ability as an effective lifter.

Hayman played the first of 68 games for Otago in 1998 and was in the Highlanders in the Super 12 in 1999. But with other All Blacks Kees Meeuws, Carl Hoeft and Joe McDonnell ahead of him, the 1998-99 seasons were effectively an apprenticeship. However, his promise had been noted at national level. In 1998-2000 he was in the New Zealand Colts and he was in the New Zealand A side which made a tour of Europe late in 2000, under the coaching of Robbie Deans and Steve Hansen.

He was overlooked totally for the 2003 season and it was only in 2004, following an outstanding Super 12 with the Highlanders, and when John Mitchell had been replaced by Graham Henry as coach, that he became an All Blacks’ first choice. A touch of Maori ancestry enabled him to play for that national side as well, and he played a prominent part in the famous win over the touring Lions in Hamilton in 2005. He was awarded the Tom French Cup for “Maori Player of the Year” in 2004.

Between 2004 and 2007 Hayman was the corner-stone of the All Black pack, and but for his departure at the end of 2007 for an overseas contract he would have added substantially to a test tally of 45 appearances.

As well he had played 81 Super 12/14 games and 68 times for Otago.Following the 2007 World Cup, Hayman made the switch to Guinness Premiership side Newcastle, reportedly becoming the best paid player in the world game. Named as the Falcons' captain in 2009, Hayman was earmarked in many quarters as a certainty for the All Blacks' assault on the World Cup on home soil in 2011.

Nevertheless, he opted instead for a contract with Toulon in France, joining former Falcons Jonny Wilkinson and Tom May at the Stade Mayol.

I suspect he may be getting a quid or two for that contract.

Sample footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4-X7aamNOE

3. Jason Leonard
British & Irish Lions – 5 caps, England – 114 caps

Jason Leonard was the youngest man ever to pack down in England's front row when he made his debut aged 22 against Argentina in 1990. Fourteen years later he retired as the only English player to rack up a century of Test appearances, and was for a time the world's most capped player.

Leonard's career spanned the amateur and professional eras, and he was successful in both. It is a testament to his skill and commitment that he was able to adapt so easily to the changing rugby environment.

As a raw 22 year old Leonard was a 16 stone, mobile prop. He adapted to the onset of professionalism and the greater physicality of scrum time by bulking up to the gargantuan figure that signed off from rugby in 2004. He was a committed servant of Harlequins during his career, making 290 career appearances for the London club after arriving from Saracens.

Leonard was part of the England team that was defeated in the 1991 World Cup Final by Australia, a defeat that he has since described as the lowest point of his career. His career was thrown into doubt after only ten Test matches when a ruptured vertebra required emergency surgery following England's Grand Slam win over Wales in 1992.

With bone grafted from his hip to replace the damaged area, Leonard was remarkably back in action against Canada that autumn. He was selected for his first Lions tour in 1993, and won an England record 38th cap for a prop in the 1995 Five Nations clash with Scotland. Leonard was included in the 1995 Rugby World Cup squad, and exacted some measure of revenge on the Wallabies when England progressed to the semi-final following a last-gasp victory in the quarters.

As his career progressed, Leonard became adept at playing in both the loose-head and tight-head positions, an unusual skill and one that meant that he was ever-present in the England front row during the mid to late 1990s.
In 1997 he was selected for the Lions tour of South Africa under Ian McGeechan and became part of a famous series victory after coming on as a replacement in the first Test. Leonard continued to dominate a place in the England front row into the new century, and was a part of the side that won Six Nations championships in 2000 and 2001 and the Grand Slam in 2003.

He was selected for his third Lions tour by Graham Henry in 2001, and added two more caps as a replacement in both the first and second Tests against then-world champions Australia. This time, Leonard and the Lions were unable to secure a series win.

His 100th England cap came in the 2003 Six Nations opener against France at Twickenham, and his record-breaking cap came against the same opponents later in the year, as part of Clive Woodward's 2003 World Cup squad. He came on as a replacement during the final, playing the full period of extra time and seeing Jonny Wilkinson slot the drop goal that brought the cup to England for the first time. The introduction of Leonard into the fray halted the flow of penalties that were going against England in the scrums, and undoubtedly contributed to their scraping home with a 20-17 lead.

It was a feature of Leonard's career that despite spending a large proportion of his time buried beneath the opposition he was able to read the game and understand his part in his team's success. This was exemplified perfectly during the World Cup final.

The standard by which all English props must measure themselves.

Sample footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psJX7U1vF-I

Interesting two of the three tightheads are kiwis.
I wouldnt have a clue about what the finer prop skills are but I do recall seeing constant references to Olo throughout his career.

One of the most memorable sights I saw involving a tighthead was when I saw Grammar play University on Eden park no. 2 where the ground is right next to the sideline. Gavin Hastings was playing that match for Uni. As was Fox. In one maul that came furiously our way in row three John Drake (RIP) drove then threw the grammar 10 'over my head' in the third row to those behind me as they came over the sideline.. One of the strongest feats Ive seen on a field.

Out of that three I went for Hayman but for me there is only one player that will top the pile and thats the legend that is Pricey.

That said I have been lucky enough to meet the funbus and he is a top top bloke.

Bedford - for what it's worth, I would also go for Price for his sheer consistency, technique and strength but the big feller wasn't shortlisted by our learned compatriots.

George Carlin wrote:Bedford - for what it's worth, I would also go for Price for his sheer consistency, technique and strength but the big feller wasn't shortlisted by our learned compatriots.

Each to their own George but always good to know not alone lol

The short list is much too restictive,in there day NZ alone Johnny Simpson,Kevin Skinner,Gary Knight,Greg Somerville.Ken Gray would be in that company.
Not to mention the likes of Sean mcLoughlin.John Pullin,Chris Koch, Oz Durant,Piet Du Toit among others.
Be honest there is NO Geatest it is just a matter of opinion,real Props in the classical sense no longer exist.Weight and strength meaning more than technique,you don`t have to be great.
To take down a stronger scrum and milk penalties because refs have`nt a clue a 50/50 bet and most of the time the ref will get it wrong too.

I agree to an extent Alan - but that's why we had the Round 1 'longlist' process before this one - most of the names you cite correctly are there.

I always thought that if you had a final vote on more than three players, you wouldn't really ever get much of a concensus.

Taylorman wrote:Interesting two of the three tightheads are kiwis.
I wouldnt have a clue about what the finer prop skills are but I do recall seeing constant references to Olo throughout his career.

One of the most memorable sights I saw involving a tighthead was when I saw Grammar play University on Eden park no. 2 where the ground is right next to the sideline. Gavin Hastings was playing that match for Uni. As was Fox. In one maul that came furiously our way in row three John Drake (RIP) drove then threw the grammar 10 'over my head' in the third row to those behind me as they came over the sideline.. One of the strongest feats Ive seen on a field.

Other players that could have been on the field in that game Taylorman:

University:
Mataafa Keanan
Sean Fitzpatrick
David Kirk

Grammar
Aj Wheton
G Wheton

Would have at least had Cotton up for selection both at 3 and 1. Just about the only prop ever to be good enough to be selected at the highest level on either side of the scrum and therefore my choice as the greatest prop of them all. If pushed, I'd have Fran at 1 and Pricey at 3 in my all-time team. As I don't have that option, it's Hayman, with much gnashing of teeth, for me on this occasion.

Hope Desperate Dan is among the candidates for 1, at least.

Should add that Paparemborde, Milne and Noriega would also have had my vote ahead of any of those listed - wasn't Jason much better known as a loose-head (Probyn at tight in the early glory days of the 90s)?

By the way, emack, Pullin? A hooker, surely? RAY McLoughlin, Ireland's greatest scrummaging prop, was more typically a loose head, as well.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Interesting two of the three tightheads are kiwis.
I wouldnt have a clue about what the finer prop skills are but I do recall seeing constant references to Olo throughout his career.

One of the most memorable sights I saw involving a tighthead was when I saw Grammar play University on Eden park no. 2 where the ground is right next to the sideline. Gavin Hastings was playing that match for Uni. As was Fox. In one maul that came furiously our way in row three John Drake (RIP) drove then threw the grammar 10 'over my head' in the third row to those behind me as they came over the sideline.. One of the strongest feats Ive seen on a field.

Other players that could have been on the field in that game Taylorman:

University:
Mataafa Keanan
Sean Fitzpatrick
David Kirk

Grammar
Aj Wheton
G Wheton

Yeah the Whettons were playing. We went to the match because it had Hastings and a number of AB's. From memory Grant Dickson was Grammar skip at the time I think. I always thought he was good for Auckland but had to sit behind the newer stars we had at the time- Jones, Zinny and Mark Brooke-Cowden from ponies. Mark Carter wasnt on the scene then but he was Grammar too wasnt he? maybe not (Suburbs- cant remember).

Dont recall Fitzy or Kirk playing but it was a fairly star studded match from memory.

Taylorman
Mark Brooke-Cowden and Mark Carter played for Suburbs.

That University team, which you mentioned, was coached by some bloke called Graham Henry.

I haven't participated (or read) these greatest threads, but clicked on this one by accident and decided to post.

I doubt any of the 3 options would make my own personal Top 10. Brown would come closest, but more because Hayman in the end deserted the international scene before his prime and Leonard was a loosie who covered tighthead on occasions.

In fact would Leonard even make my England top 10 at TH? Certainly behind :
Phil Blakeway, Mike Burton, Dan Cole, Fran Cotton, Gary Pearce, Jeff Probyn, Phil Vickery, Julian White

Was`nt sure what Number was what head so threw in a load of props,Pullin Correct was thinking of Fran Cotton.
Ron Jacobs would rate high on any list of England Props,many Argentina ones too.
Ian MacLauchlan Mighty Mouse would too.

I'm not voting on this as neither of them are.

Can I stress again that the shortlist came from the longlist, which was chosen through the Collective Wisdom of all of the posters on these boards.

Tiger - if you didn't participate in the earlier versions of these threads, then you only need to look in the mirror for someone to blame when picking over the mc nuggets.

Apologies, was not looking to cast blame. I was not active when first discussions were had, hence why I have not participated. Just slightly boggled that the collective 606 wisdom created this shortlist.

Most props come good far later in their career then most players.

Being a world class prop for 12 years is no mean feat. Most guys have a window of 3 years/seasons tops. Out of the list Leonard gets it for me for that.

Although again... no springboks.... the undisputed greatest scrummaging nation of all time.

George Carlin wrote:Can I stress again that the shortlist came from the longlist, which was chosen through the Collective Wisdom of all of the posters on these boards.

Tiger - if you didn't participate in the earlier versions of these threads, then you only need to look in the mirror for someone to blame when picking over the mc nuggets.

Can I get an award for most subtle but effective WUM please?

Glas a du wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Can I stress again that the shortlist came from the longlist, which was chosen through the Collective Wisdom of all of the posters on these boards.

Tiger - if you didn't participate in the earlier versions of these threads, then you only need to look in the mirror for someone to blame when picking over the mc nuggets.

Can I get an award for most subtle but effective WUM please?

To make it up to you George, I have voted now as well.

Glas a du wrote:To make it up to you George, I have voted now as well.

Owen Franks was rated THE best tighthead in the 2011 RWC and has been a top one for several years.He is only in his mid twenties perceived wisdom WAS a prop reachs full strength at 30 and could expect maybe 5 to 7 years at the top after that.

Looked a bit average if I recall last season mind.

I can't take this seriously without Graham Price as an option. 12 successive tests for the Lions! Has anyone else ever done that?

The last forty years have really seen the roles of loose head and tight head become ever more specialised. It takes an extraordinary combination of strength, skill and agility to excel in both positions. Mighty Mouse was a superb loose head, who I hope will be in contention for the 1 jersey, alongside McLoughlin, Cotton, Whineray, du Randt, Cholley and Leonard.

I know that the Boks are synonymous with scrummaging, but there have been times in their history when they too have had to suffer at the hands of even greater practitioners of the Dark Arts. The Lions scrums of 74 and 77 utterly humiliated SA and NZ respectively, reducing the former to impotent attempts to start fights and the latter to virtual three-man scrums on their own ball. That's why I have such a soft spot and such a high regard for them. Cotton was an integral part of both of these, as a tight head in 74 and a loose head in 77, which is why his CV is almost unparalleled among the forklift men.

One reads much about the Lions of 1971,74,and 77 and YES the Lions Scrummages were on another level.BUT in the 70`s the Great AllBlacks and Boks packs had gone.
The Forwards of the Tight or Tight/Loose variety had been replaced by a Tight 5 and a back 3 loose variety.Under Freddie Allen the AB`s developed there running game.BUT there forwards were THE worlds best in that era,in the 1970`s they tried to run the ball WITHOUT the Forwards first developing the platform.
In 1970 and 1971 the other side played 10 man rugby and a goal kicker ,had they kicked there goals .The ABs would have won both the 1970 and 1971 series and DID win the 1977 one.
The players of 1966 1-15 were superior to that of 1971 as individuals but NOT as a team.
From 1950-65 the All Blacks lost one series and maybe 8 tests a pack of forwards and a goalkicker not pretty but winning rugby.
The Nh learnt that lesson with the coaching circa 1969-70`s forwards set the platform for the backs long time coming.