England Injury Update

First topic message reminder :

http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/january/news-articles/230113_injury_update


Corbs having minor surgery today.
Burns has an MCL injury and not in contention for opening weekend.
Tuilagi making progress, but doubts over whether he will recover in time.
Billy V sitting out training this week with an ankle injury.
Tom Johnson out of 6Ns
Alex Goode has trained and will be released for Sarries LV game to get match practice.


Not on this update was Calum Clark who has had surgery and is out of 6Ns according to BBC.

lostinwales wrote:Maes has been posting a lot of sensible stuff recently but...

Corbs is a loss, hes still a young guy so lets just hope his knee can recover.

As for bringing young players through, I know they have had to wait a long time for their chances but Marler (22) and Vunipola (21 is it?) both have caps.

I think mentioned that mate.. England have brought in Thomas too which is good. They need to do the same for the Tighthead too. There is not much behind Cole.

Its not unusual to get four injuries to one department in the team... Then you are scouring the depths a bit and panicking about the next result.

But Thomas IS a tighthead...so why is he replacing Corbs who is a loosie...

That was my thinking GF. Possibly Wilson has picked up a little niggle in camp, and Thomas was brought in as cover for that too, since VUnipola and Marler seem to be fit...?

Wilson and Doran Jones can both cover loosehead if one of Marler and Vunipola had a late problem, so this is probably just a case of them wanting a look at Thomas.

maestegmafia wrote:
England need to do the same as Wales and blood younger promising players at prop and hooker. Vunipola Youngs and Wilson, (if he is the only Tighthead back up to Cole) need game time, even just finishing quarters.

In fairness I think England are further ahead in this process than you suggest. Wilson has 22 caps already, Youngs was fast-tracked ahead of more experienced back up players to start all four autumn tests despite concerns about his throwing, and both Marler and Vunipola have been given caps by Lancaster despite being only 22 years old.

I also think Marler is underrated on here, but I've made that point elsewhere.

thomh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:
England need to do the same as Wales and blood younger promising players at prop and hooker. Vunipola Youngs and Wilson, (if he is the only Tighthead back up to Cole) need game time, even just finishing quarters.

In fairness I think England are further ahead in this process than you suggest. Wilson has 22 caps already, Youngs was fast-tracked ahead of more experienced back up players to start all four autumn tests despite concerns about his throwing, and both Marler and Vunipola have been given caps by Lancaster despite being only 22 years old.

I also think Marler is underrated on here, but I've made that point elsewhere.

Agree with you on Marler. He held his own in SA against a front row that was expected to hammer him, and was only undone against Australia because the assistant referee repeatedly failed to flag the Aussie TH's illegal bind (he basically grabbed the edge of his sleeve every time and pulled straight down, meaning that Marler missed his bind repeatedly. Not being able to cope with that is a technical flaw, but Wig can fix that pretty quickly). But a 22 year old prop who's had 4 caps is not going to know all the tricks of the trade, which is why he needs experience.

I am pretty sure that Lancaster's team will have a 3-year plan for who they are going to bring through and when in order to get them ready for 2015, and the talent is definitely out there. With JJ leaving Quins next year, Will Collier and Kyle Sinckler will start getting a lot more game time. Both young, both EQP, and being coached by a team who have a track record of nurturing good props (Mike Ross, JJ and Marler in the last 4-5 years). Sinckler in particular looks like he could be ready for international rugby sooner rather than later. I am sure there are other strong candidates around the AP as well - isn't Max Lahiff EQP?

Poorfour, Lahiff looks to be a quality prospect in my opinion, but unfortunately at the moment is a little under the radar. He's strong in the scrums, and carries the ball very strongly, but never seems to get any plaudits.

I thought he would at least be in the Saxons.

Poorfour wrote: With JJ leaving Quins next year, Will Collier and Kyle Sinckler will start getting a lot more game time. Both young, both EQP, and being coached by a team who have a track record of nurturing good props (Mike Ross, JJ and Marler in the last 4-5 years). Sinckler in particular looks like he could be ready for international rugby sooner rather than later. I am sure there are other strong candidates around the AP as well - isn't Max Lahiff EQP?

Sinckler looks fantastic, though we can't really say that he'll be ready for international rugby soon when he doesn't player premiership games yet. Great for the u20s though. We're in a weird position at Quins in that we're (pretty much certainly) signing an England international tighthead prop (PDJ) but crossing our fingers that our untested academy products will overtake him very soon.

Nicolas Mas, Castro and Adam Jones will be a big test for any top class loosie, if marler and vunipola can come through those tests achieving parity then we know they can scrummage. With the scrum in mind and now missing Corbs and being very reliant on Cole staying fit i wonder if Louis Deacon may have been a better promotion from the saxons than Botha.

I know Deacon isn't a popular choice on these boards and i would rate him below a fit Launchberry, Lawes and Parling. But he is very good at the lineout, jumping and lifting and leading calls. He is also one of the hardest scrummaging locks about with several props saying they love it when deac's is in the pack. I think he offers great balence to a side and while I see Lawes and Launchberry as similar animals with Parling being a lineout geek I think Deacon would have been a great squad option if the scrum started to creek or Parling gets Injured. For me Botha is a bit like a larger lewis moody, charging at everything with 100% comitment but perhaps not always the best execution. I dont think he provides a different/better set of skills to what we have, he isn't as athletic as Lawes/Launchberry, he's not really big enough to be a top class enforcer and his lineout and scrum skills are good but not spectacular.

Usually on a Wednesday.. I think.

sirtidychris wrote:Nicolas Mas, Castro and Adam Jones will be a big test for any top class loosie, if marler and vunipola can come through those tests achieving parity then we know they can scrummage.

Marler was up to handling both Cole and Castro in the AP Final. The final scrum was a thing of beauty when the Quins pack (7 of whom had played the whole 80 minutes) shoved a Tigers pack with a fresh front row back on the hit, then stabilised and waited for the put in. A real "come on and have a go" moment.

Poorfour wrote:

sirtidychris wrote:Nicolas Mas, Castro and Adam Jones will be a big test for any top class loosie, if marler and vunipola can come through those tests achieving parity then we know they can scrummage.

Marler was up to handling both Cole and Castro in the AP Final. The final scrum was a thing of beauty when the Quins pack (7 of whom had played the whole 80 minutes) shoved a Tigers pack with a fresh front row back on the hit, then stabilised and waited for the put in. A real "come on and have a go" moment.

I always thought you wasn't allowed to push before the ball was put in. Oh well just goes to show the rules of rugby always surprise!

movement within a couple of feet is allowed methinks

'The hit' is ok, if it stabilises as described. It maybe only a barely discernible nudge, but this can be telling.

nathan wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

sirtidychris wrote:Nicolas Mas, Castro and Adam Jones will be a big test for any top class loosie, if marler and vunipola can come through those tests achieving parity then we know they can scrummage.

Marler was up to handling both Cole and Castro in the AP Final. The final scrum was a thing of beauty when the Quins pack (7 of whom had played the whole 80 minutes) shoved a Tigers pack with a fresh front row back on the hit, then stabilised and waited for the put in. A real "come on and have a go" moment.

I always thought you wasn't allowed to push before the ball was put in. Oh well just goes to show the rules of rugby always surprise!

Well, yes, and this is what Brian Moore is on about. FWIW, I agree with him. But referees are usually so busy looking at the bind that they'll let you get away with a friendly nudge.

Anyway, glad there is some evidence there in Marler's favour. England plainly need some front row backup, and Poorfour's report gives us some encouragement.

It will be a bit of a test this Saturday too. He'll most likely be up against the Reverand Euan Murray who is a wee bit of a grunter to be honest.

I'm certainly happier that he (Murray) is up againts Marler than Corbs.

I have a lot of respect for Rev Murray, so a good opening test for Marler.

Murray used to be a beast but I think his powers are on the wane these days. Murray and Ross will prove a good test for our loosies however... before we get to the more narly tightheads aforementioned... I think all the tightheads will have their hands full with Cian Healey to be honest, there will be some manshaming in the next few weeks i reckon !

Marler is perfectly stable in the scrum. At Quins it is the big Samoan lump with the borderline legal technique that holds him back. The AP final Marler had a very good game indeed even if Johnston got away with dragging Ayerza to the floor at every scrum (that's Barnes reffing for you). I think if anything Corbs is a little overrated as is his club colleague Lahiff who needs more AP experience before he steps up to the Saxons.

Tighthead worries me less with Brookes back fit and out on loan recovering his form, young Balmain getting rave reviews for his cameo appearence against Wasps in the LV, Sinckler and Collier both coming along nicely at Quins. With Castro and Johnston both going to France in the summer more game time will be heading their way and that of Mercey at Saints as he is promoted with Mujarti going.

When Marler was getting slated for his scrummaging it wasn't him giving away the penalties. It was Johnson. Of course Barnes blamed Marler even time even when the 'front line' pointed out it was Johnson. John has a massive impact when he came back as we'll.

Agree - at the turn of 2012 something clicked and Johnston got his scrummaging sorted. Since then Marler has barely had a game where he didn't get the better of his opposite number, and looking at some of the tightheads he's up against in the Premiership and the HC that's pretty impressive going.

I have no fear about Marler starting in place of Corbs. What Corbs does allow for is a real attempt at some destructive scrummaging, which I feel we'll miss out on with Marler but I can't see the scrum suffering with Corbs out.

The only thing i'd like to see more of from Marler is his carrying around the park. When he came on the scene he was an excellent carrier and that seems to have deserted him over the past few seasons as he's concentrated on his scrummaging and breakdown work.

That of course is something you get plenty of from Vunipola but I don't know about the consistency of his scrummaging.

No need to overly panic, Tuilagi will be available for the Ireland game. Missing the Scotland game could be a blessing in disguise. Think I'd replace Tuilagi with Joseph for Saturday.

Chjw131

His carrying seems to be improving again since he's come back from the knee injury he got against Australia.

Marler's carrying is still there at club level (though defences are better set for him now they know to expect him), but I think he's had his hands full at international level adapting to scrummaging against a full international pack. Once he gets the hang of it, I think we'll see him rampaging a little more.

Next season will be a fun test - Johnston is off to Sarries, so we'll see how they cope with each other.

I am also looking forward to seeing Marler and Sinckler on the pitch at the same time - two guys who are far faster and more mobile than props have any right to be. The opposition may not know what hit them.

But Sam is right that there's a decent looking supply of EQP props at several clubs now.

Team announcement on Thursday.maybe want an extra day training to see what best combo in the centre.Thinking outside the box for a moment do you think brown might play 13?

Marler not a good scrummager imo, he'll be a worry

We'll see

Brown shouldn't play 13 though, that's borderline madness, don't think I've ever seen him cover 13!

Brown def not a 13

Brown played 13 last 6n albeit for about 10 minutes.I'm not saying he should or will play there but I wouldn't say the coaches haven't thought about it.

The likelihood is Joseph at 13, but if Lancaster were in the mood to take a calculated risk (not that he ever has) then 36 at 12 and Barritt at 13.

Please please not Flood 10 and Farrell 12 (or 13).

9.Care
10.Farrell
11.Brown
12.Barritt
13.Joseph
14.Ashton
15.Foden or Goode

I hope this is what they pick as the backline

Farrell does add a huge goal kicking advantage.

sickofwendy wrote:Brown played 13 last 6n albeit for about 10 minutes.I'm not saying he should or will play there but I wouldn't say the coaches haven't thought about it.

When was that? I really don't think they'll have considered him as a viable option at 13 at all. He's never played there for Quins at all, and it wouldn't suit his strengths.

Should have been:
Youngs
Flood
Foden
Barritt
Manu
Ashton
Goode

With Manu out:
Youngs
Farrell
Foden
Barritt
JJ
Ashton
Brown

If it is JJ then, and let's say he has a storming game - what next? Manu to 12 and JJ at 13?

I'd go with:

9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Brown/Foden
12. Barritt
13. Twelvetrees (has played there and played well there)
14. Ashton
15. Goode/Brown

Bench - Care, Flood, Joseph.

Given the likely conditions at HQ in early Feb and having seen the chunky Scottish backs I'd look for Farrell to get the scoreboard ticking with Benny starring in tough conditions recently. Twelvetrees and Barritt will be solid in defence and get over the gainline. Care, Flood and Joseph to add a burst in the second half as we look to pull away.

As long as the centre partnership is not Farrell-Barritt it should be good enough.

Any of these

Barritt-JJ
36-JJ
Barritt-36

would do well enough IMO.

I agree Beshocked.

Any centre combination other than Farrell or Flood making an appearance there is fine by me.

Barritt and JJ
Or Barritt and 36.

I think it will be Barritt and JJ to be honest.

True bluestonevedder forgot to add I don't want to see Flood in the centres either!

Barritt and JJ would be fine IMO.

Not as good as having Manu there but at least Manu should be back for Ireland.

It should be two permed from Barritt/36/Joseph.

However I have the horrible feeling we may see the same 10/12/13 Axis as last played Scotland - just with Flood replacing Hodgson.

LondonTiger wrote:It should be two permed from Barritt/36/Joseph.

However I have the horrible feeling we may see the same 10/12/13 Axis as last played Scotland - just with Flood replacing Hodgson.

Please GOD NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo

bluestonevedder wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:It should be two permed from Barritt/36/Joseph.

However I have the horrible feeling we may see the same 10/12/13 Axis as last played Scotland - just with Flood replacing Hodgson.

Please GOD NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo

+1

Argh!!!

Why would you even put that thought into my head?!

Bathman_in_London wrote:Argh!!!

Why would you even put that thought into my head?!

the pessimist is never disappointed!

Joseph isn't in the matchday squad - so unless they want to start Twelvetrees, rather than bring him on from the bench, Barritt/Farrell it is.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Get out the prayer beads, we need to make sure 36 starts!!