Ireland Squad for Murrayfield- Kidneys Toughest Moments?

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29 man squad for the visit to Scotland.

Ireland Squad - Backs: Rob Kearney (Leinster), Robbie Henshaw (Connacht), Fergus McFadden (Leinster), Craig Gilroy (Ulster), Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster), Keith Earls (Munster), Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster), Darren Cave (Ulster), Luke Marshall (Ulster), Ronan O'Gara (Munster), Paddy Jackson (Ulster), Conor Murray (Munster), Eoin Reddan (Leinster)

Forwards: Rory Best (Ulster), Seán Cronin (Leinster), Tom Court (Ulster), David Kilcoyne (Munster), Mike Ross (Leinster), Declan Fitzpatrick (Ulster), Donnacha Ryan (Munster), Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster), Lewis Stevenson (Ulster), Devin Toner (Leinster), Peter O'Mahony (Munster), James Coughlan (Munster), Iain Henderson (Ulster), Seán O'Brien (Leinster), Chris Henry (Ulster), Jamie Heaslip (Leinster).

Some weeks are from hell.

For Declan Kidney, when he's done, he might just look back on this week as one of the toughest he's faced since taking over the Ireland job. The discussion, analysis and bickering will take place below but I want to frame it by saying I do not envy him one bit. Indeed, I feel sorry for him when I think of the calls he must make. Let us hope necessity is the mother of invention- and that the character of the 15 men on the pitch is enough to carry us over the line.

Ireland Abú. G'wan Ireland.

valjester wrote:Team in full according to another forum.

Court Best Ross
Ryan Doc
POM Heaslip SOB
Murray Jackson
Marshall BOD
Earls Kearney Gilroy


Kilcoyne Cronin Fitzpatrick Toner Henderson Reddan ROG Fitzgerald

Sin would have an aneurysm. He has nothing left to lose does he? Stick or twist. Could get really interesting.

More and more, I can't see him wanting to stay to be honest. Doing a job like this really must take its toll on a man. He's a sympathetic figure for me at this point.

Woah that would be pretty magical from a dk selection. I'd be in favour.

Brendan Fanning has said just as much on Twitter as has Sinead Kissane. Amazing if true. Maybe they'll play like Leinster vs Scarlets and not kick anything, just go for the corner all the time from penalties???

If that was the team, would everyone be in happy? I don't understand why O'Gara has been on the bench ahead of Jackson if he is going to get leapfrogged for the starting place. Likewise Kilcoyne and Court. We would be going into the match with 2 uncapped players in the 10/12 shirts, arguably one of the most important parts of the pitch. There was ample time to blood them during the autumn internationals, and Jackson could have been coming off the bench for experience in the first 2 matches of the 6 nations. It would be the right selection, but you have to ask, why now?

JmD wrote:If that was the team, would everyone be in happy? I don't understand why O'Gara has been on the bench ahead of Jackson if he is going to get leapfrogged for the starting place. Likewise Kilcoyne and Court. We would be going into the match with 2 uncapped players in the 10/12 shirts, arguably one of the most important parts of the pitch. There was ample time to blood them during the autumn internationals, and Jackson could have been coming off the bench for experience in the first 2 matches of the 6 nations. It would be the right selection, but you have to ask, why now?

Hard to say. Kidney has a track record of leftfield selections. It doesn't seem like any grand plan is unfolding. Just panic at things not working. Maybe there are other pressures in selection other than rugby- marketing, media perception etc.

It's like a man who knows what has been before won't hold up. Like his hand has been forced.

Now because of injuries and even the journos have turned on ROG now too thats why.

I know the Jackson Marshall thing is massive but tOner just came out of nowhere! I know loadsa injuries etc but this is a massive mOment for him

Well it was down to either Toner or Stevenson and hasnt Stevenson just come back from an injury?

Conor George crying bitter, bitter tears on twitter is an added perkmif this selection comes off!

Golden wrote:Well it was down to either Toner or Stevenson and hasnt Stevenson just come back from an injury?

I would still take Stevenson. Toner isn't up to it, and to be honest I would have preferred Henderson into the team and DOC left on the bench.
I guess the worries over whether Ryan will make it or not is the reason that toner is there. If Ryan goes down, we have no recognized line-out
caller. POM did it for Ireland at u20 level, and I think he has some experience for the Munster A team as well. This is probably the reason for Toner
but I'm still disappointed that we don't have someone better available, though I suppose the reason for that is injuries.


Jackson is a perfectly adequate kicker, his poor form for Ulster coincided with a leg injury, he was kicking well earlier in the season, I have no fear of him on that count, and it would be stupidity to include a player, McFadden, solely for his goal kicking, when he is well behind the other options in his spot.

I would be amazed if this selection is true. Would have preferred Madigan to start with PJ on the bench, (never going to happen of course), and Toner doesn't exactly fill me with confidence, but still excited about this selection if true.
Really hope PJ and Skywalker are both 100% fit. Be surprised if Luke is after being helped of the field with two dead legs on Friday.

Took full part in training munchkin. They can be run off pretty quickly at times so not a massive shock. I would personally have brought in madigan butprogress is progress

If it isn't true then a lot of people have been sold a pup. Fanning, O'Reilly and rte have it on twitter I believe.

Standulstermen wrote:Took full part in training munchkin. They can be run off pretty quickly at times so not a massive shock. I would personally have brought in madigan butprogress is progress

If it isn't true then a lot of people have been sold a pup. Fanning, O'Reilly and rte have it on twitter I believe.

The poster on PR has never been wrong. I've found from other sources that Marshall and Court are definitely starting, not sure on Jackson but if the guy on PR says he is, he is.

Yes, I know Fanning has been making a bit of noise, but I tend to trust Fanning more than others.
I understand the dead leg thing, but Luke really didn't look to good when he came off last week. Great to hear that he has been involved fully in training though. This would be a big chance for the two of them which is a double edged sword, methinks. I'm a bit concerned it's a bit early for PJ, but if he shines then this will be a massive boost for him. Luke I have no concerns about. I don't doubt he can handle it.

Munchkin wrote:Yes, I know Fanning has been making a bit of noise, but I tend to trust Fanning more than others.
I understand the dead leg thing, but Luke really didn't look to good when he came off last week. Great to hear that he has been involved fully in training though. This would be a big chance for the two of them which is a double edged sword, methinks. I'm a bit concerned it's a bit early for PJ, but if he shines then this will be a massive boost for him. Luke I have no concerns about. I don't doubt he can handle it.

Murray has been excellent for the majority of this season, I would be fairly confident of him being able to take a lot of pressure of Jackson, not to mention Bod helping Marshall and Jackson.

valjester wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Yes, I know Fanning has been making a bit of noise, but I tend to trust Fanning more than others.
I understand the dead leg thing, but Luke really didn't look to good when he came off last week. Great to hear that he has been involved fully in training though. This would be a big chance for the two of them which is a double edged sword, methinks. I'm a bit concerned it's a bit early for PJ, but if he shines then this will be a massive boost for him. Luke I have no concerns about. I don't doubt he can handle it.

Murray has been excellent for the majority of this season, I would be fairly confident of him being able to take a lot of pressure of Jackson, not to mention Bod helping Marshall and Jackson.

I agree with this, although I don't see Murray being given the kicking duties over PJ. I believe mentally this is the one aspect of his game that really gets to him. Maybe I'm just reading more into this than I should. I hope so, but no matter how good a 10 is in all other aspects of their game it's the kicking that they get judged on. Watching Luke play alongside BOD is something I'm looking forward to most. Thought for awhile there that it wasn't going to happen, and delighted for Luke that it is.

Munchkin wrote:

valjester wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Yes, I know Fanning has been making a bit of noise, but I tend to trust Fanning more than others.
I understand the dead leg thing, but Luke really didn't look to good when he came off last week. Great to hear that he has been involved fully in training though. This would be a big chance for the two of them which is a double edged sword, methinks. I'm a bit concerned it's a bit early for PJ, but if he shines then this will be a massive boost for him. Luke I have no concerns about. I don't doubt he can handle it.

Murray has been excellent for the majority of this season, I would be fairly confident of him being able to take a lot of pressure of Jackson, not to mention Bod helping Marshall and Jackson.

I agree with this, although I don't see Murray being given the kicking duties over PJ. I believe mentally this is the one aspect of his game that really gets to him. Maybe I'm just reading more into this than I should. I hope so, but no matter how good a 10 is in all other aspects of their game it's the kicking that they get judged on. Watching Luke play alongside BOD is something I'm looking forward to most. Thought for awhile there that it wasn't going to happen, and delighted for Luke that it is.

Which is a load of s**t. I doubt Murray would be able to kick at this stage, but I have no real fear of Jackson tbh, maybe slightly realistic, but I live in hope.

valjester wrote:Team in full according to another forum.

Court Best Ross
Ryan Doc
POM Heaslip SOB
Murray Jackson
Marshall BOD
Earls Kearney Gilroy


Kilcoyne Cronin Fitzpatrick Toner Henderson Reddan ROG Fitzgerald


THe guy is usually right, and from other people I've talked to I'm fairly certain on Marshall and Court.

Wow unbelieveble, big calls there....

....I mean I can't believe Earls got the nod ahead of McFadden.....

Jackson won't be perfect but it is a measure of how far ROG has waned. If Jackson does decently this 6N may be the last we see ROG in green. I hope jackson isn't judged on one cap but the great thing is we have two other younger guys who have the hunger for the ten spot too

Jackson has been groomed to take the Ireland 10 spot for a while so I think this will be a long term thing.

Marshall will be the key man in the backline, he will take the pressure off everyone else with his ability to break the line and also act as an extra fly half.

I wouldn't worry about these guys at all.

Still expected to see McFadden named in the side. As an excellent place kicker.

If thats the team, its a team designed to attack. Our most attacking scrum configuration and in having a 10 and 12 who will take the ball to the line.

The team above is what I am hearing too.

As for Toner -hold on to your hats - whilst Ryan shoudl start he remains the one doubt in which Toner starts and Stevenson is on the bench.

Contrary to what some say this is a typical Kidney selection.

The man is ultra conservative and when cracks appear he continues to paper over them with what he knows.

However if injuries, suspensions and poor form mean that the cracks get too wide he goes total left field - that is what has occured here.

Ah so the plan is to stick Toner behind Court in the scrum so we can get minced up front and the media can have a field day on big Tom again?

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/comment-analysis/ogara-snub-an-unnecessary-risk-for-ireland-boss-29082214.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Damned if you do and damned if you don't, would be my general view. We're two armed camps. We've become rabid in this country. I don't understand the ROG myth. It seems to be based on a view of ROG as our savior so many times. Things change. It seems he can no longer deliver that. Yet poor performances have not, until very recently, managed to change peoples minds. And even now some people are unwilling to change their mind.

Thing is, I did think Jackson needed a year to learn his trade at Ulster. This is coming a bit soon. But as soon as Sexton limped off, that was always going to be the way. Imagine after all this he names ROG instead at lunchtime after all!

I'll miss Kidney. He's made some shocking gambles in his time, some massive mistakes. But no matter how predictable he seems there's always the risk of some mad desperate, maverick move.

[flash][/flash]Agree

I am sorry to all Leinster fans but regardless of the lineout Toner should be nowhere near the team for the reason Rodders gives.

We could play Stevenson and use him, DOC, POm as our jumpers - Henderson on the bench would also be an option. Not perfect but a better option imv.

Healy and Bent were minced by Court and Afoa before Christmas because there was no grunt in the Leinster second row (Cullen and Toner)

No I agree with Geoff Notch. ROG's form has left Kidney with no option and Jackson is the obvious pick and next in line.

Madigan would have been left field. This is a very conservative and predictable selection.

Not just that, Bent was in all sorts of trouble. But yeah, the fact Ulster were scrummaging as an 8 was helpful. A locks scrummaging is just as important.

Our scrum went well againt England, all things told. Doesn't O'Callaghan normally scrum on the loosehead side?

No Notch DOC binds on the TH side. O'Connell shifts to TH when Ryan plays.

Geoff what odds that when Kilcoyne comes on, he'll get DOC in behind him then Thornley, Lenihan and the rest of the muppet journos will all point out how much more solid the scrum was with Kilcoyne?

rodders wrote:No I agree with Geoff Notch. ROG's form has left Kidney with no option and Jackson is the obvious pick and next in line.

Madigan would have been left field. This is a very conservative and predictable selection.

rodders, I think we are signing off mainly the same hymn sheet. It's a go for it selection. Like in Blackjack, if you're on 13 there's no point not twisting- even if you think the next card is a face card. He's in a situation where he has to take a risk. There's no point being conservative when you know you're onto a loser.

He tried this combination in the autumn. It wasn't his fault that Fiji weren't a good enough standard of opponent.

rodders wrote:No I agree with Geoff Notch. ROG's form has left Kidney with no option and Jackson is the obvious pick and next in line.

Madigan would have been left field. This is a very conservative and predictable selection.

The only reason Jackson is "the obvious pick" is because Jackson is first choice for his province and has Ireland caps. Not sure there is much difference in the quality of the two players. Jackson is a good all rounder with a slightly more conservative game. Madigan is more exciting to watch and offers more in attack.

Would have prefered Madigan but quite happy Jackson has been selected and not ROG.

Yeah Notch but the only thing I'd say is that this isn't a risky selection, its an obvious one based on the autumn and the pecking order that Kidney has already in place.

If Kidney was really looking at what was going on he'd see that Madigan is playing better than Jackson, McFadden better than Earls and that Toner is the wrong type of lock.

This is just a typical Kidney pick to appease the media and IRFU branches.

Playing Jackson and Marshall is not a conservation selection

The conservative selection was 10 ROG, 12 BOD, 13 Earls

Credit to him for not going down that route

GunsGerms wrote:
Would have prefered Madigan but quite happy Jackson has been selected and not ROG.

Exactly.

geoff998rugby wrote:Playing Jackson and Marshall is not a conservation selection

The conservative selection was 10 ROG, 12 BOD, 13 Earls

Credit to him for not going down that route

No I disagree I think he is under considerable pressure from all sorts of quarters not to play that combination.

Court
Best
Ross
Ryan
DOC
POM
SOB
Heaslip
Murray
Jackson
Earls
Marshall
BOD
Gilroy
Kearney

I just wanted to write that again!

First time I've been surprised in a good way for an Irish selection in a long, long time. Yeah it's not perfect, not close, but it is a step in the right direction. It is also upsetting that it has come to pass due to injuries and more telling the terror that Kidney must be feeling over his job and the pressure he must be coming under (indeed from the team at this stage too)

Jackson and Marshall are outstanding calls.
Henderson being in there is really positive.
Court while not thinking "long term" is a good tactical call to try and take it to Scotland's 8.
Fitzgerald I believe could be starting in a week or two if he continues his form.

Yes it would be really nice to have Madigan in there who is an insane talent but we can't get everything I guess.

In what has started as a pretty crappy week for me personally this is a chink of light and has really lifted me. This is what rugby does to so many of us and I have hope again, not blind, wayward hope for the team but a foundation could be about to be built. I saw the news on a dart home last night (which I normally fall asleep on) but I couldn't sit still, I was electric as such.

Absolutely delighted.

Declan I am sure this is a really hard selection for you, and I imagine it may not be your personal preference but thank you you've really turned my week around.

rodders wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Playing Jackson and Marshall is not a conservation selection

The conservative selection was 10 ROG, 12 BOD, 13 Earls

Credit to him for not going down that route

No I disagree I think he is under considerable pressure from all sorts of quarters not to play that combination.

Indeed.

rodders wrote:Yeah Notch but the only thing I'd say is that this isn't a risky selection, its an obvious one based on the autumn and the pecking order that Kidney has already in place.

If Kidney was really looking at what was going on he'd see that Madigan is playing better than Jackson, McFadden better than Earls and that Toner is the wrong type of lock.

This is just a typical Kidney pick to appease the media and IRFU branches.

Agreed again. Poor Kidney. He carries the can but I doubt the IRFU will look for a successor who is strong enough to be his own man.

The IRFU will look for a successor who is absolutely not his own man. Thats why O'Shea cleared off, Gatland got the chop and they are grooming Ruddock and Foley to take over.

Just reading the comments from Les Kiss..... it sounds like its Jacksons defence that got him the nod as they are expecting the Scots to attack the 10 channel.

Ulster supporters! Seriously!!!!!!!! Not all of you I know.
Have you not been telling us for months how this Ireland team should be made up of players from the form Province in Europe. You have potentially got five starters and two on the bench and you'r making excuses for them before a ball has been kicked.
Kilcoyne is gonna get a bigger lock than Court. Have you any idea how ridiculously childish that sounds?
Paddy needs an extrsa year? So you want Ronan to play on for another year or let Madigan step up and potentially block Paddy's progress?
It's a conservative selection!! What? Gilroy, Earls, Jackson, Marshall. Conservative?
Jasus lads. I thought you would be turning cartwheels with a selection like this. Nobody is gonna start throwing blame around if Jackson and Marshall don't set the world on fire in their first game together.
I would be delighted if this is the starting team. Regardless of where the players hail from. Lets get behind them eh and try to enjoy what should be a very competitive performance from a fresh, hungry, uninhibited bunch of young players.

OK, just read some of the "expert opinions" from Notch's link to the Independent.ie. I have never lived in Ireland so have never had much access to the papers.

Wow, just, wow. I have never read such one-eyed tripe in all my life, I am agast at what I have read can be seen as expert opinion. Who wrote that??

Submachine wrote:Ulster supporters! Seriously!!!!!!!! Not all of you I know.
Have you not been telling us for months how this Ireland team should be made up of players from the form Province in Europe.

Well not really actually.

I'm delighted for Ulster players to get picked but only for the right reasons.

Marshall is a great call. 100% behind that.

Tom Court is in great form but how does he leapfrog Kilcoyne? Even Toners provincial coach doesn't pick him for big games because of his scrummaging so its not childish to say that Tom will be up against it with him binding behind him.

Paddy was in great form before christmas but since then has dipped a bit due to injury. Madigan would be the better pick just now imo but am not too concerned about it.

That would be conor george... There's only a few of the rugby writers/opinion guys worth reading in my opinion, Quinlan, Fanning and WoC. The rest are either horribly biased one way or another (Hook, George, Francis) or just mouthpieces for the IRFU like Thornley.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I know the Jackson Marshall thing is massive but tOner just came out of nowhere! I know loadsa injuries etc but this is a massive mOment for him

Not really, sure he has played for Ireland before on numerous occasions. He is only on the bench, probably wont get any game time.

the-goon wrote:OK, just read some of the "expert opinions" from Notch's link to the Independent.ie. I have never lived in Ireland so have never had much access to the papers.

Wow, just, wow. I have never read such one-eyed tripe in all my life, I am agast at what I have read can be seen as expert opinion. Who wrote that??

The Independent is a rag that operates a 'good cop' / 'bad cop' approach. For instance, Brendan Fanning is doing all the highly criticial stuff on O'Gara and Conor George is his cheerleader.

Conor George replaced Hugh Farrelly (who resigned from the Indo because he refused to work in this way).

THe first paragraph of Conor George's article is pure gold. I can see him typing away at his computer through the tears with a smashed picture of Deccie lying on the ground beside him. It really is wumderful

rodders wrote:

Submachine wrote:Ulster supporters! Seriously!!!!!!!! Not all of you I know.
Have you not been telling us for months how this Ireland team should be made up of players from the form Province in Europe.

Well not really actually.

I'm delighted for Ulster players to get picked but only for the right reasons.

Marshall is a great call. 100% behind that.

Tom Court is in great form but how does he leapfrog Kilcoyne? Even Toners provincial coach doesn't pick him for big games because of his scrummaging so its not childish to say that Tom will be up against it with him binding behind him.

Paddy was in great form before christmas but since then has dipped a bit due to injury. Madigan would be the better pick just now imo but am not too concerned about it.

Ah rodders come off it. Every Ireland thread for the last six months has an Ulster v Sin argument as to why Ulster players should/not be in the team.
The right reasons? They are Irish pro rugby players whose team needs them.
Court in my opinion comes in as the best scrumaging LH option with a view to attacking the scotland scrum. Toner, like Cullen is a LH scrumager. With Cullen as the captain he is invariably on the bench in favour of a TH lock (Browne). If DOC come off, Toner will pack down on the TH side I would feel. If Ryan comes off Toner will slot in on the LH side. Court will have nothing like the trouble he had against England as he will be on his favoured side whoever is behind him.
Paddy has been the next in line for some time. He is the starting outhalf for Ulster in most of their Heineken matches and simply has more top level exposure than Madigan. He will be fine.

Standulstermen wrote:THe first paragraph of Conor George's article is pure gold. I can see him typing away at his computer through the tears with a smashed picture of Deccie lying on the ground beside him. It really is wumderful

Well Conor George is a new face on the block. Advocated O'Gara for the Lions a wee while back. He can hardly stick the knife in now without making himself look stupid!

Not sure what the issue is really. DK said he is picking on form and the form guys have been picked in the first 15.

It is a toss up between Jackson and Madigan and Kilcoyne and Court. Cant see any of them letting us down. Its their time to shine. Hope they grab it like Gilroy has.