Ireland Squad for Murrayfield- Kidneys Toughest Moments?

First topic message reminder :

29 man squad for the visit to Scotland.

Ireland Squad - Backs: Rob Kearney (Leinster), Robbie Henshaw (Connacht), Fergus McFadden (Leinster), Craig Gilroy (Ulster), Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster), Keith Earls (Munster), Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster), Darren Cave (Ulster), Luke Marshall (Ulster), Ronan O'Gara (Munster), Paddy Jackson (Ulster), Conor Murray (Munster), Eoin Reddan (Leinster)

Forwards: Rory Best (Ulster), Seán Cronin (Leinster), Tom Court (Ulster), David Kilcoyne (Munster), Mike Ross (Leinster), Declan Fitzpatrick (Ulster), Donnacha Ryan (Munster), Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster), Lewis Stevenson (Ulster), Devin Toner (Leinster), Peter O'Mahony (Munster), James Coughlan (Munster), Iain Henderson (Ulster), Seán O'Brien (Leinster), Chris Henry (Ulster), Jamie Heaslip (Leinster).

Some weeks are from hell.

For Declan Kidney, when he's done, he might just look back on this week as one of the toughest he's faced since taking over the Ireland job. The discussion, analysis and bickering will take place below but I want to frame it by saying I do not envy him one bit. Indeed, I feel sorry for him when I think of the calls he must make. Let us hope necessity is the mother of invention- and that the character of the 15 men on the pitch is enough to carry us over the line.

Ireland Abú. G'wan Ireland.

George Carlin wrote:Genuinely feel sorry for anyone having to replace His BODness.

The younger fans won't realise it yet but we aren't going to see his like for another 20 years. And when we do, he probably won't be Irish.

Agree 100%. people always go on about Earls hands and his pass and how its not as good as Dricos etc. etc. Very few players are as good as Drico though. Earls has his own strengths and that is what we should focus on. He has an unbelievable eye for a gap and the try line in general and great pace. As a second centre I could see him making more breaks than anyone else could on the Irish team. Sometimes he struggles to find support but that will come with experience in the role.

I think the young lad for the current under 20's (Daly?)could be a dark horse in the not too distant future. He is massive as well.

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:Earls was interviewed on Off the Ball last night. He spoke about his confidence issues - said that he had none until he was about 21 when everyone started telling him he wasn't this or he wasn't that and he listened to them. He is talking to two sports psychologists now (Munster one and Ireland one).

Tony Ward is backing Earls to replace Brian O'Driscoll (and he would know all the up-and-coming young 13s). Interesting that he say he "cannot see any natural wing traits in Earls."

Whatever about having the game to replace Brian O'Driscoll, I doubt very much if he has the capacity to deal with the heavy criticism he will get for not being Brian O'Driscoll.

I am convinced Earls is the man to replace Drico too.

I'm convinced he is not.

In fact 13 along with 3 are very worrying postions for Ireland.

Cave should be the stand in with the hope a young buck - turns up soon. By contrast we are well served at 12 with like Marshall, JJ and McSharry.

But for a trajic event Spence was the man -EOM, Farrell, Griffin, Barnes are the ones in the wings - will any be good enough?

Submachine wrote:

I think most people would agree with you that he is a fine rugby player but for both Munster and Ireland he has not proved to be a consistently good enough 13. Too often he takes too much out of the ball or when he does make the right choice, draws the defender and makes space for his outside man the pass is often woeful.

Name who you think are the consistently good 13s around?

I think he is Irelands best left wing and can adequately cover fullback but he just has not convinced at outside centre. Would love to see him concentrate on the wing where his pace and footwork are used to best effect.

That isn't going to happen at club level as Simon Zebo has just resigned with Munster for 3 more years and then there is Luke O'Dea and Andrew Conway who look to have the potential to be top players on the wing or fullback.

The speed will not last forever and once it starts to wane a more permanent move to fullback is probably the path he will take. For the same reason I think his place in the national team will remain only as long as the pace as there are better options at 13 and the likes of Gilroy, O'Halloran, D Kearney and Zebo as competition who are that bit younger. He will not be a Tommy Bowe or Shaggy type winger who can compensate for pace with size and offloading.

I think Zebo & Earls are the two fastest in the Ireland camp and he shouldn't lose his pace for at least another 5/6 years (if he looks after himself). Denis Hickie & Shane Williams were playing at the top well into their 30s with no noticeable loss of pace.

Think Williams may have even got faster toward the end.

I never thought Stevenson would be realeased to much risk, 1 injury and he's on the bench can't have him playing Friday night oif he has to bench Sunday especially if Ryan is not fully fit. As for Earls what I have seen so far leaves me unconvinced about him at 13, he is a fantastic wing but if he wants to play 13 and gets the gametime and the right coaching then I am sure he will turn into a fine 13 not BOD because no one is BOD and people need to realise that.

Earls on the wing and Luke Fitz in the center. Hopefully that's where they both end up because that's where they could both realise their potential.

Sin é wrote:

Submachine wrote:

I think most people would agree with you that he is a fine rugby player but for both Munster and Ireland he has not proved to be a consistently good enough 13. Too often he takes too much out of the ball or when he does make the right choice, draws the defender and makes space for his outside man the pass is often woeful.

Name who you think are the consistently good 13s around?

I think he is Irelands best left wing and can adequately cover fullback but he just has not convinced at outside centre. Would love to see him concentrate on the wing where his pace and footwork are used to best effect.

That isn't going to happen at club level as Simon Zebo has just resigned with Munster for 3 more years and then there is Luke O'Dea and Andrew Conway who look to have the potential to be top players on the wing or fullback.

The speed will not last forever and once it starts to wane a more permanent move to fullback is probably the path he will take. For the same reason I think his place in the national team will remain only as long as the pace as there are better options at 13 and the likes of Gilroy, O'Halloran, D Kearney and Zebo as competition who are that bit younger. He will not be a Tommy Bowe or Shaggy type winger who can compensate for pace with size and offloading.

I think Zebo & Earls are the two fastest in the Ireland camp and he shouldn't lose his pace for at least another 5/6 years (if he looks after himself). Denis Hickie & Shane Williams were playing at the top well into their 30s with no noticeable loss of pace.

As has been said previously we aren't blessed with talent at 13 but I think Cave and McFadden are better choices currently and a more natural fit. In future you could have O'Malley, Henshaw and possibly Jared Payne.

As for the competition at Munster. As I said, I think he is the best 11 in the country not just in his club. He would be a nailed on starter there if he wanted to be.

I'd love it if he can continue at the same level for many years to come.

This has the potential to be the best game of the weekend IMO

If Ireland play like they did against Wales, and Scotland play the way they played against Italy and don't get bullied like they did against England I agree this will possibly be the match of the weekend.

If it becomes a forwards arm wrestle, (and suit Ireland) it will be a dull afternoon.

Submachine wrote:As has been said previously we aren't blessed with talent at 13 but I think Cave and McFadden are better choices currently and a more natural fit. In future you could have O'Malley, Henshaw and possibly Jared Payne.

As for the competition at Munster. As I said, I think he is the best 11 in the country not just in his club. He would be a nailed on starter there if he wanted to be.

I'd love it if he can continue at the same level for many years to come.

I think we are as blessed with talent at 13 as we are in most other positions - people need to realise that players like BOD & POC are more than likely irreplaceable with a like-for-like player.

Cave doesn't have the pace (or the engine) for international rugby. McFadden is a model pro - works hard, good team player, but he doesn't have that x factor that players like Luke Fitz, Earls, Zebo & Gilroy have. O'Malley would need to get on his bike because he i way behind Earls & Cave with regard to experience and Henshaw is an 18 year old. Forget Jared Payne who might head back to NZ even if Ulster bench Cave (who can't be moved to any other position to facilitate Payne at centre).

Zebo has been one of Munster's best player this season - he isn't going to be moved from there unless there is an injury crisis.

Mickado wrote:Earls on the wing and Luke Fitz in the center. Hopefully that's where they both end up because that's where they could both realise their potential.

As a longtime fan of Luke Fitz, I'm just delighted to see him get back to this level again. Listening to Earls talk about how the criticism can affect a young player's confidence, its great that he has overcome it all again. If he gets a start in the 6Ns, he could make the Lions as he has the experience of having toured before).

Forgot about Payne.

Come 2014 he will be, by some distance, the best 13 available even taking into account he play more games at 15 for Ulster.

Yeah it's a shame for Fitz that he didn't get to play many games before the 6nations because he's on top form right now. Had a very good game at the weekend, albeit from fullback.

geoff998rugby wrote:Forgot about Payne.

Come 2014 he will be, by some distance, the best 13 available even taking into account he play more games at 15 for Ulster.

What are you basing that he is the best 13 available? I recall seeing him playing at 13 against one of the poorest teams in the Rabo (Edinburgh).

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Forgot about Payne.

Come 2014 he will be, by some distance, the best 13 available even taking into account he play more games at 15 for Ulster.

What are you basing that he is the best 13 available? I recall seeing him playing at 13 against one of the poorest teams in the Rabo (Edinburgh).

Wasn't he in the Super XV Team of the Year at 13 before he came over?

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Forgot about Payne.

Come 2014 he will be, by some distance, the best 13 available even taking into account he play more games at 15 for Ulster.

What are you basing that he is the best 13 available? I recall seeing him playing at 13 against one of the poorest teams in the Rabo (Edinburgh).

Wasn't he in the Super XV Team of the Year at 13 before he came over?

So that means he could be in the frame to replace Conrad Smith who is 31 now?
Has he spoken about playing for Ireland? (both Straus & Stander has/have declared an interest).

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Forgot about Payne.

Come 2014 he will be, by some distance, the best 13 available even taking into account he play more games at 15 for Ulster.

What are you basing that he is the best 13 available? I recall seeing him playing at 13 against one of the poorest teams in the Rabo (Edinburgh).

Wasn't he in the Super XV Team of the Year at 13 before he came over?

So that means he could be in the frame to replace Conrad Smith who is 31 now?
Has he spoken about playing for Ireland? (both Straus & Stander has/have declared an interest).

He was the Player of the Month 2 months running in the Super 15 playing from 15.

He has made it clear to Ulster that he will, probably, stay beyond 2014 as he considers them the best club he has ever played for (in terms of treating their players right).

On that basis he would become available for Ireland.

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Forgot about Payne.

Come 2014 he will be, by some distance, the best 13 available even taking into account he play more games at 15 for Ulster.

What are you basing that he is the best 13 available? I recall seeing him playing at 13 against one of the poorest teams in the Rabo (Edinburgh).

Wasn't he in the Super XV Team of the Year at 13 before he came over?

So that means he could be in the frame to replace Conrad Smith who is 31 now?
Has he spoken about playing for Ireland? (both Straus & Stander has/have declared an interest).

Has Stander declared an interest? Surprised at that.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Forgot about Payne.

Come 2014 he will be, by some distance, the best 13 available even taking into account he play more games at 15 for Ulster.

What are you basing that he is the best 13 available? I recall seeing him playing at 13 against one of the poorest teams in the Rabo (Edinburgh).

Wasn't he in the Super XV Team of the Year at 13 before he came over?

So that means he could be in the frame to replace Conrad Smith who is 31 now?
Has he spoken about playing for Ireland? (both Straus & Stander has/have declared an interest).

He was the Player of the Month 2 months running in the Super 15 playing from 15.

He has made it clear to Ulster that he will, probably, stay beyond 2014 as he considers them the best club he has ever played for (in terms of treating their players right).

On that basis he would become available for Ireland.

Making the team of the season ahead of Conrad Smith would suggest he has a very decent shot with the ABs. No doubt he is very grateful to Ulster for being good to him when he got injured, but until he signs an extension with Ulster beyond his present contract, I wouldn't be putting all our 13 eggs in that basket.

LeinsterFan4life

I was under the assumption that Standers contract stated that he would have to pledge his future to Ireland to have it ratified by the IRFU.

fa0019 wrote:LeinsterFan4life

I was under the assumption that Standers contract stated that he would have to pledge his future to Ireland to have it ratified by the IRFU.

I think he just cant declare for SA while he is under contract with Ireland. He could break that contract at any time leave Ireland and play for SA provided he hasn't been capped by Ireland first.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Has Stander declared an interest? Surprised at that.

Yes. Very open about it. His wife to be also looks to be declaring for Ireland as a swimmer (she has represented SA*) and her brother has won 3 golds in the Olympics. She missed the last Olympics because of an injury. She will be training with the Irish High Performance Unit in Limerick who recently got a new Kiwi coach!


*I don't understand it, but there seems to be no problem switching countries for Olympic sports (some Polish bloke won gold for Poland in canoeing and represented Ireland in the last Olympics).

GunsGerms

Yeah I don't think its contractually binding... rather a verbal agreement. Although perhaps there are some financial penalties for him breaking his contract which must be at least 3 years plus.

From here the news was that his salary/contract was bigger than usual because of him pledging himself to Ireland and why it was too good to turn down.

Quotes from Stander:

Yet he does express remorse that he might eventually be taking a place from homegrown talent. If, he said, it were to happen that he got capped for Ireland, he admitted it could be tough for local players to swallow.

“Yeah, that would be bad from their perspective, but I think it is great that another country can recognise potential and bring a player like me in.”

Stander says he figured this dilemma out by speaking with family and friends at length before making any decisions and believes he made a wise choice. Originally he made it based on joining a top class club rather than the aspiration to play international rugby for anyone other than South Africa.

“When I decided to come here I said to myself I wanted to come to a team, to a club that’s amongst the best in the world.

“After that, coming to Ireland as a project player, to play for Ireland is just a great honour. In the first few weeks here people have been amazing — the way they support you — it’s a rugby culture.”

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/cj-ready-to-stand-tall-for-munster-215603.html

There are also some interviews on Munster Rugby with him.

Not putting Eggs anywhere Sin but if he does sign, which is quite possible, he will be the best available.

Just because Smith is 31 doesn't mean he will be out of the equation in 18 months time and there is some talent down there to challange Payne even if he does go home.

Just for a laugh my prediction for the starting backs for the first Autumn international in 2014 is - Henshaw, Bowe, Payne, Marshall, Zebo, Sexton, Murray

geoff998rugby wrote:Not putting Eggs anywhere Sin but if he does sign, which is quite possible, he will be the best available.

Just because Smith is 31 doesn't mean he will be out of the equation in 18 months time and there is some talent down there to challange Payne even if he does go home.

Just for a laugh my prediction for the starting backs for the first Autumn international in 2014 is - Henshaw, Bowe, Payne, Marshall, Zebo, Sexton, Murray

I think Richard Kahui was the front runner and now he is off to Japan.

That would be funny - no Leinster player in the backline (though I think they probably might squeeze Madigan in there!).

Madigan good player but he needs to be a better 10 Sexton or a better 12 than Marshall or a better 15 than Henshaw.

Maybe we can find a spot for him on the bench

Really interesting article here on Smith's view on what makes an outside centre.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7930987/Conrad-Smith-needs-an-heir-at-centre

Since his test debut against Italy in 2004, Ma'a Nonu, Isaia Toeava, Anthony Tuitavake, Luke McAlister, Nathan Mauger, Mils Muliaina and Richard Kahui are among the cast to have had a crack in the middle of the backline.

"You get a lot of guys who look, really good at centre in New Zealand," Smith said.

"They will burst on to the scene and even when I started playing it seemed like every year there was another emerging centre but they tended to drop off.

"Everyone asks me what the skill set is for a centre and the thing is I don't think there is one specific skill.

"I've always found it's a position where you have to really adjust to the second five-eighth you are playing with and the rest of the backline really, the wings, the fullback. It's only when you are more experienced that you can do that. You sort of have to understand what the second five-eighth does.

"And it is an understanding.

"People talk a lot about communication in rugby but you often don't have time to call things. It's instinctive and with experience those instincts become something can really trust.

"

BOD & D'Arcy ?

I'd love Fitz to be put in at 13.

My nov 2014 backline: (being a bit experimental)

Henshaw-Bowe-payne-Marshall-zebo-sexton-marmion
Murray-madigan-fitz

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I'd love Fitz to be put in at 13.

My nov 2014 backline: (being a bit experimental)

Henshaw-Bowe-payne-Marshall-zebo-sexton-marmion
Murray-madigan-fitz

Wouldn't want Payne anywhere near the team.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I'd love Fitz to be put in at 13.

My nov 2014 backline: (being a bit experimental)

Henshaw-Bowe-payne-Marshall-zebo-sexton-marmion
Murray-madigan-fitz

Do you really think Hensahw displace Kearney in a year? He is very rough around the edges and I always see Connacht fans say he kicks far to much. Also connacht fans are asking for him to be moved to 13.

GunsGerms wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I'd love Fitz to be put in at 13.

My nov 2014 backline: (being a bit experimental)

Henshaw-Bowe-payne-Marshall-zebo-sexton-marmion
Murray-madigan-fitz

Wouldn't want Payne anywhere near the team.

Why? The guy is in a league above anyone set to play in a green shirt. He would dander onto most international setups as easily as he ghosts through defences.

Pete330v2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I'd love Fitz to be put in at 13.

My nov 2014 backline: (being a bit experimental)

Henshaw-Bowe-payne-Marshall-zebo-sexton-marmion
Murray-madigan-fitz

Wouldn't want Payne anywhere near the team.

Why? The guy is in a league above anyone set to play in a green shirt. He would dander onto most international setups as easily as he ghosts through defences.

He's not that good and no he is certainly not in a league above anyone else. He is on a par with our best and I think if he did declare for Ireland then he should only be used as back up only like all other non Irish players.

GunsGerms wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I'd love Fitz to be put in at 13.

My nov 2014 backline: (being a bit experimental)

Henshaw-Bowe-payne-Marshall-zebo-sexton-marmion
Murray-madigan-fitz

Wouldn't want Payne anywhere near the team.

Why? The guy is in a league above anyone set to play in a green shirt. He would dander onto most international setups as easily as he ghosts through defences.

He's not that good and no he is certainly not in a league above anyone else. He is on a par with our best and I think if he did declare for Ireland then he should only be used as back up only like all other non Irish players.

Really? He has been fantastic for Ulster this season and he was fantastic for Blues before coming here, I'd say he certainly is good and more than par with our best.

I think we can all agree that its nice to see the southern hemisphere react like this to our young guns - Hogg, Gilroy, Zebo!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eWmSUWCXHo

GunsGerms wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I'd love Fitz to be put in at 13.

My nov 2014 backline: (being a bit experimental)

Henshaw-Bowe-payne-Marshall-zebo-sexton-marmion
Murray-madigan-fitz

Wouldn't want Payne anywhere near the team.

Why? The guy is in a league above anyone set to play in a green shirt. He would dander onto most international setups as easily as he ghosts through defences.

He's not that good and no he is certainly not in a league above anyone else. He is on a par with our best and I think if he did declare for Ireland then he should only be used as back up only like all other non Irish players.

To be honest, it's not true he is on par with our best. He's better.

I don't think we'll get him. I think he'll go back to NZ and become an All Black. With Kahui off to Japan, think he has a good chance of being an All Black if he decides to leave Ulster. If he stays, well. He's a fantastic player, better 15 but also has all the attributes of a top class 13.

Would have to agree, neilthom. Payne is a great player, and it wasn't so long ago that Ireland were having real difficulties when looking for a suitable full-back replacement. Hence Tommy Bowe tried at 15 during the Autumn...

Munchkin wrote:Would have to agree, neilthom. Payne is a great player, and it wasn't so long ago that Ireland were having real difficulties when looking for a suitable full-back replacement. Hence Tommy Bowe tried at 15 during the Autumn...

If you are referring to Tommy Bowe playing there for Ulster - that was because Payne had started every game so far that season and he needed a break (or so thats what Anscombe told the press).

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Would have to agree, neilthom. Payne is a great player, and it wasn't so long ago that Ireland were having real difficulties when looking for a suitable full-back replacement. Hence Tommy Bowe tried at 15 during the Autumn...

If you are referring to Tommy Bowe playing there for Ulster - that was because Payne had started every game so far that season and he needed a break (or so thats what Anscombe told the press).

Hi, Sin,

yep, that's also my understanding, but I also strongly suspect that kidders had a hand in there somewhere. Can't prove it of course (and yes, I do have me tinfoil hat on), but would be a fantastic coincidence that it was when Ireland were badly in need of someone to fill that position.
The point I was making is that Ireland are not exactly blessed with others that can fill that position. If Payne had have been IQ he would have been playing for Ireland then, and he would remain to be playing for Ireland now.

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Would have to agree, neilthom. Payne is a great player, and it wasn't so long ago that Ireland were having real difficulties when looking for a suitable full-back replacement. Hence Tommy Bowe tried at 15 during the Autumn...

If you are referring to Tommy Bowe playing there for Ulster - that was because Payne had started every game so far that season and he needed a break (or so thats what Anscombe told the press).

Hi, Sin,

yep, that's also my understanding, but I also strongly suspect that kidders had a hand in there somewhere. Can't prove it of course (and yes, I do have me tinfoil hat on), but would be a fantastic coincidence that it was when Ireland were badly in need of someone to fill that position.
The point I was making is that Ireland are not exactly blessed with others that can fill that position. If Payne had have been IQ he would have been playing for Ireland then, and he would remain to be playing for Ireland now.

Too many conspiracy theories! Kidney put Zebo in there without ever having seeing him play there - I'm sure he would have risked Tommy Bowe as well.

Quote from Anscombe:

Ulster coach Mark Anscombe has revealed the decision to play Tommy Bowe at full-back against the Dragons at the weekend was not on the instruction of Declan Kidney.

By John Fallon
Anscombe said he had made the call without input from the Irish management as Ulster wanted to rest Jared Payne. It was believed that Kidney had requested the selection of Bowe at No.15 as he ponders who to select at full-back for the autumn internationals.

But the Ulster boss rubbished such claims. “Jared had played since the start of the season and we wanted to see how Tommy went in that position and we were pleased with the way it went,” said Anscombe after their 46-19 win which maintained their perfect start to season with eight straight victories

.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/anscombe-decision-to-play-bowe-at-full-back-not-kidneys-call-212283.html

If Payne has a chance for playing for the All Blacks, I would prefer if he did. I honestly don't see why he should play for Ireland in that instance as Kiwis are fiercely proud of their country and their team. I can sort of understand the South Africans wanting to move to a new country and get on with life because there are a lot of problems there.

This is true, Sin, but I believe it's a valid argument. I don't doubt if Payne was offered a chance to play for his country then he would jump at the chance, but if it doesn't look likely then I think playing for Ireland would be a viable option. Not that he would take it. I don't know.
I get what you're saying along with Guns, and I'm not arguing against that. Really just pointing out that Payne is top class, and if he was IQ then he would be nailed on.
The Boks are a proud people as well. Think there are other factors at play when players choose other countries.

Munchkin wrote:This is true, Sin, but I believe it's a valid argument. I don't doubt if Payne was offered a chance to play for his country then he would jump at the chance, but if it doesn't look likely then I think playing for Ireland would be a viable option. Not that he would take it. I don't know.
I get what you're saying along with Guns, and I'm not arguing against that. Really just pointing out that Payne is top class, and if he was IQ then he would be nailed on.
The Boks are a proud people as well. Think there are other factors at play when players choose other countries.

I'm not saying the Boks are not a proud people, but with all the upheaval in SA over the last number of years, coming to a small country such as Ireland where they become a big fish in a small pond (and where they don't have to have a security firm minding their house) must be very attractive. I think Ireland suit the Boks as well because like us, they are very family orientated and a lot of them come from farming backgrounds.

Just browsing this thread and thought I'd end speculation because I've read an interview where Payne actually has expressed an interest in playing for Ireland, in the centre too.

I would share people's reservations about too many foreign players coming into the squad but he is pure class (god only knows why NZ let him go) so I'd personally be able to put that aside!

Have you got a link to that interview sams?

Bowe played 15 because Kidney asked for it.

Some people have not seen enough of Payne if they don't realise that BOD apart he is significantly better than any 13 alternative we have.

I share the reservation re residency players but the answer is changed the rules or dont play them at all.

If you consider Strauss on merit, who is the only residency qualified player close to the team, at the moment, then all residency based players shoulde be treated equally.

"If you consider Strauss on merit, who is the only residency qualified player close to the team, at the moment, then all residency based players should be treated equally."

Exactly Geoff and for those who seem to know little about Jared Payne he is way ahead of Strauss in class in respective positions. Class he brings to 15 and 13 and can also do a turn at 11, 14 or 12 too.

geoff998rugby wrote:Bowe played 15 because Kidney asked for it.

Some people have not seen enough of Payne if they don't realise that BOD apart he is significantly better than any 13 alternative we have.

I share the reservation re residency players but the answer is changed the rules or dont play them at all.

If you consider Strauss on merit, who is the only residency qualified player close to the team, at the moment, then all residency based players shoulde be treated equally.

Not necesarily, as quotas exist for virtually everything in this modern world... and for precise reasons. From how many horses should be in a ton of beef to fish stocks to milk production. To protect and idea or a principle, you have quotas.... and that means so much of one thing but not too many that might disrupt the principle in operation.

Many here on this forum seem to think totally free trade in International players (even through to International players themselves) isn't all that bad a thing..and it's free market principles at work. (They've been doing great work in recent years, them principles!! )

Anyway, I tend to think that the principle of actually having players who grew up wanting to play for their nation getting pretty heavy preferences when it comes to actually choosing International players isn't all that bad a principle - even as it goes in opposite directions to the free market tug.

If you believe in the principle then the idea of quotas for foreign players who walk into National teams should be kept low. I don't think it's a bad principle and I don't think those who do like it should feel the need to apologise for having a belief in it.... even, as I say, it runs against the modern god of free market economics - All Hail to it of course.....

Notch wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I'd love Fitz to be put in at 13.

My nov 2014 backline: (being a bit experimental)

Henshaw-Bowe-payne-Marshall-zebo-sexton-marmion
Murray-madigan-fitz

Wouldn't want Payne anywhere near the team.

Why? The guy is in a league above anyone set to play in a green shirt. He would dander onto most international setups as easily as he ghosts through defences.

He's not that good and no he is certainly not in a league above anyone else. He is on a par with our best and I think if he did declare for Ireland then he should only be used as back up only like all other non Irish players.

To be honest, it's not true he is on par with our best. He's better.

I don't think we'll get him. I think he'll go back to NZ and become an All Black. With Kahui off to Japan, think he has a good chance of being an All Black if he decides to leave Ulster. If he stays, well. He's a fantastic player, better 15 but also has all the attributes of a top class 13.

Payne plays centre, fullback and wing.

Is he a better 15 than Kearney, reigning European player of the year and Lion. No he is not.
Is he a better 13 than BOD, three time Lion and multiple world player of the year nominee and test centurion. No he is not.
Is he a better wing than Tommy Bowe, top try scorer in last years 6 nations, Lion and multiple award winner. No he is not.
Is he better than Zebo, Earls or Gilroy as a wing. Maybe marginally but not really, probably around the same.

In any case by the time he qualifies for Ireland he will be 28/29. By then there may be an opening at 13 which is the position lets face it is the one he is most likely to suit. If he does declare for Ireland and I hope he doesn't then hopefully he would be a short term solution or used on the bench because he is not Irish.

s he a better 15 than Kearney, reigning European player of the year and Lion. No he is not. Currently as good as if not better. I think better.
Is he a better 13 than BOD, three time Lion and multiple world player of the year nominee and test centurion. No he is not. Currently as good an option.