Ireland Squad for Murrayfield- Kidneys Toughest Moments?

First topic message reminder :

29 man squad for the visit to Scotland.

Ireland Squad - Backs: Rob Kearney (Leinster), Robbie Henshaw (Connacht), Fergus McFadden (Leinster), Craig Gilroy (Ulster), Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster), Keith Earls (Munster), Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster), Darren Cave (Ulster), Luke Marshall (Ulster), Ronan O'Gara (Munster), Paddy Jackson (Ulster), Conor Murray (Munster), Eoin Reddan (Leinster)

Forwards: Rory Best (Ulster), Seán Cronin (Leinster), Tom Court (Ulster), David Kilcoyne (Munster), Mike Ross (Leinster), Declan Fitzpatrick (Ulster), Donnacha Ryan (Munster), Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster), Lewis Stevenson (Ulster), Devin Toner (Leinster), Peter O'Mahony (Munster), James Coughlan (Munster), Iain Henderson (Ulster), Seán O'Brien (Leinster), Chris Henry (Ulster), Jamie Heaslip (Leinster).

Some weeks are from hell.

For Declan Kidney, when he's done, he might just look back on this week as one of the toughest he's faced since taking over the Ireland job. The discussion, analysis and bickering will take place below but I want to frame it by saying I do not envy him one bit. Indeed, I feel sorry for him when I think of the calls he must make. Let us hope necessity is the mother of invention- and that the character of the 15 men on the pitch is enough to carry us over the line.

Ireland Abú. G'wan Ireland.

Sub these are the right calls. But it's more than picking the right players that needs to happen. It's getting them to perform well together.

It's a good Plan B, it is. But it's a Plan B put together on the hoof. None of Jackson, Marshall etc. were in camp last weekend.

Paddy will be fine as will Tom but I can't be excited that Kidney has become a maverick all of sudden based on this selection.

I'm happy with it, I just think there are some calls there that are questionable.

Goes with out saying that I am happy to see more Ulster representation but ultimately its about putting the best side out to do the business against Scotland.

Submachine wrote: Kilcoyne is gonna get a bigger lock than Court. Have you any idea how ridiculously childish that sounds?

No really just stating the fact that if Toner comes on the prop he is behind will struggle.

Delighted for Court that he is starting given the form he is in

Submachine wrote: Paddy needs an extrsa year? So you want Ronan to play on for another year or let Madigan step up and potentially block Paddy's progress?

Again not really Jackson clearly is the future but he is still in his first full year and this probably is a little early for him. As I mentioned elsewhere, and by way of comparison, at he same age Sexton had played only 1 game as a OH for Leinster and was 3rd choice. Given a recent injury and the fact that Paddy is not Ulster kicker at the moment the suggestion of picking Madigan is reasonable. I am definitely in the anyone but ROG camp.

Submachine wrote:

rodders wrote:

Submachine wrote:Ulster supporters! Seriously!!!!!!!! Not all of you I know.
Have you not been telling us for months how this Ireland team should be made up of players from the form Province in Europe.

Well not really actually.

I'm delighted for Ulster players to get picked but only for the right reasons.

Marshall is a great call. 100% behind that.

Tom Court is in great form but how does he leapfrog Kilcoyne? Even Toners provincial coach doesn't pick him for big games because of his scrummaging so its not childish to say that Tom will be up against it with him binding behind him.

Paddy was in great form before christmas but since then has dipped a bit due to injury. Madigan would be the better pick just now imo but am not too concerned about it.

Ah rodders come off it. Every Ireland thread for the last six months has an Ulster v Sin argument as to why Ulster players should/not be in the team.
The right reasons? They are Irish pro rugby players whose team needs them.
Court in my opinion comes in as the best scrumaging LH option with a view to attacking the scotland scrum. Toner, like Cullen is a LH scrumager. With Cullen as the captain he is invariably on the bench in favour of a TH lock (Browne). If DOC come off, Toner will pack down on the TH side I would feel. If Ryan comes off Toner will slot in on the LH side. Court will have nothing like the trouble he had against England as he will be on his favoured side whoever is behind him.
Paddy has been the next in line for some time. He is the starting outhalf for Ulster in most of their Heineken matches and simply has more top level exposure than Madigan. He will be fine.

Most of those articles you cite where regarding Trimble. I have no qualms with courts selection. He willmbe looking to soften up the Scottish pack and then unleash kilcoyne to carry. I also had no qualms with kilcoyne displacing court initially. The logic in going with the younger guy is sound but my argument was that the wasn't applied across the squad. This announcement has seen a massive swing towards that.

What I am wary of Is that people believe we are going to win now because of these changes. The scots are favourites regardless who starts at ten. Thats where we as a team are and in fairness to kidney an injury list of

Sexton, Bowe, Ferris, Zebo, D'arcy, POC, McCarthy, Henry, Strauss coupled with healys ban is pretty hard to contend with.

Look guys.

We are damned if we do and damned if don't. Jackson is young and callow and will learn on the job. We need to accept that instead of tearing into him if he doesn't perform.

It's not a perfect situation, but when is it ever? All we can do now is row in behind them.

Notch wrote:

It's a good Plan B, it is. But it's a Plan B put together on the hoof. None of Jackson, Marshall etc. were in camp last weekend.

Does it really matter?

Drico had never even played for Leinster before he scored three trys in Paris. If you are good enough you should really be chomping at the bit to make an impression.

Thats what I hope to see from Jackson and Marshall.

GunsGerms wrote: The only reason Jackson is "the obvious pick" is because Jackson is first choice for his province and has Ireland caps. Not sure there is much difference in the quality of the two players. Jackson is a good all rounder with a slightly more conservative game. Madigan is more exciting to watch and offers more in attack.

Would have prefered Madigan but quite happy Jackson has been selected and not ROG.

Jackson has no Irish caps this wil be his debut

Jackson is not a conservative player - one of his qualities is beautiful hands that can and will open up defences in the years to come. I do not agree Madigan offers more in attack

I see George, in his article, is bemoaning Henderson playing in the back row - get used it for a couple of years, at least, as that is where Ulster will be using him. In time I can see him moving to the 2nd row but not now

Other point is that surely Paddy should have been given the experience of being on the bench and maybe a home game if Kidney thought that he may start in the 6N?

The reality is that this is a kneejerk reaction to ROGs poor form, which is something nearly everyone else could see for the past 2 seasons.

Instead Paddy has been turfed in the deep end, away from home in a crunch 6n for his first real cap.

I'm not against throwing younsters in but the fact that neither Madigan or Paddy have any meaningful international experience and ROG is way past it is just down to awful management.

If I was Deccie, I'd be selling this as an opportunity to try a young player like Jackson or Madigan by saying that injuries forced his hand. If it's an enormous whoopsie then he can just say he would never have made that decision were everyone to be fit.

If I was an Ireland fan, I would hate DC for playing it save when now could be the time to experiment, responsibility-free.

George Carlin wrote:If I was an Ireland fan, I would hate DC for playing it save when now could be the time to experiment, responsibility-free.

Thats it man.

Agreed GC.

As a Scots fan I least wanted to see Madigan and Marshall start in tandem. I don't place a huge onus on "experience", it's been used as a rationale for some of the worst selection decisions in the history of international rugby.

The energy those guys would have brought to the Ireland attack, which will have some decent ball on Sunday, would have been hard to contain.

Remember in Jackson and Scott, we have a pretty inexperienced duo at 10/12 ourselves.

This was a good opportunity.

Sports journalism is 99% sh!te, always has been and always will be. They're just interested in selling papers and spreading their paymasters political agenda.


The selections are interesting. I have not seen much of Jackson but I would have preferred Madigan. Jackson is a big improvement on ROG though who is totally past it at this stage and should not be anywhere near the international squad. Jacksons goal kicking could be important. Like most 20 year olds hes a bit hit and miss there at the moment.

I'll be delighted if Luke Marshall starts. He is the future at 12 and offers more of an attacking threat than D'Arcy.

I'd have liked Kilcoyne to start but I can see what they want to do. Try to dominate the Scottish scrum with Court and then bring on Kilcoyne when the game opens up along with Henderson, Cronin etc.

Good to see Luke Fitz back too. Hes a player who I'd like to see at 15 or in the center.

Earls on the wing is the right call too. He is a fantastic back 3 player but doesn't have the skillset to be a center. His passing lets him down although he is better than people give him credit for. Gilroy on the other wing means Ireland are strong there. So are the Scots so it should make for a good contest.

Listen.

If we get going forward, we can shred defences with that backline. Believe.

Court makes sense for this one with Euan Murray out.

Big opportunity for Ireland to assert scrum dominance against Murray Low or Geoff Cross, neither of whom are set piece world beaters.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Court makes sense for this one with Euan Murray out.

Big opportunity for Ireland to assert scrum dominance against Murray Low or Geoff Cross, neither of whom are set piece world beaters.

Exactly. I hope Kidney sees it too.

This is just classic Kidney. Now his supporters and apologists will be able to point and say 'look, he does bring in young talent and he's not afraid to make the big calls'. Kidney does indeed make the odd surprise selection- he did it with Munster and he has done it on occasion with Ireland. But some of his selections are odd to say the least and demonstrate the inconsistency of his approach.

Court should have been on the bench in the first place in the first two matches given his superb form for Ulster. But he wasn't and Kilcoyne was. Now we haven't really seen much from Kilcoyne so far this tournament or in the autumn but his scrummaging looked pretty good. If you believe this guy should be picked instead of Court then when Healy is out why do you keep him on the bench on all if you don't trust him to start? This scrum dominance debate makes no sense- the time to start Kilcoyne would be now when the Scots are weakened. If anything we would have needed Court for his scrummaging against better front rows like, oh I don't know, Wales and England. Similarly with Jackson why on earth was O'Gara on the bench in the autumn and in the Six Nations when everyone knew he was utterly finished, out of form and rusty and Jackson, in the autumn at least, was in good form. Now when we have a 10 crisis we have Madigan and Jackson with zero caps between them. Like Kilcoyne, why not have them on the bench for some experience in case this occurs. Then at least we wouldn't be throwing them in at the deep end. Don't get me wrong, not picking O'Gara is the right call. His performances in the last few weeks have been embarrassing. I would have picked Madigan over Jackson personally but anyone would be an improvement on ROG. But it is how we have got to this point selection wise that is absolutely nonsensical. The cases of Kilcoyne and Jackson are utterly contradictory and make no real sense.

Toner is a dreadful selection and he has no place anywhere near the international setup. Move Henderson into second row and have O'Donnell (who I would have started if I had my way) on the bench. Henderson is a far better player around the park, and Toner, despite his height, is not a good lineout operator. Henderson's scrummaging at second row is not fantastic but he could not be worse than Toner.

I am really glad to see Keith Earls on the wing where he belongs. If he played wing week in week out he would be my first choice winger alongside Bowe. When even Munster cheerleaders in the press are pointing out his passing isn't good enough then you know there's something wrong. Gilroy is simply not ready for international rugby, as indeed practically all Ulster fans said on here prior to the tournament. I would have brought in Earls against England, but I certainly would have brought in Fitzgerald against Scotland.

And the backrow remains passive and unbalanced. O'Donnell really is going to be a super player. He's playing really well right now and I would have started him and moved SOB or POM to 8. Instead Kidney made possibly our most under performing player over the past four years captain and ultimately undroppable.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Agreed GC.

As a Scots fan I least wanted to see Madigan and Marshall start in tandem. I don't place a huge onus on "experience", it's been used as a rationale for some of the worst selection decisions in the history of international rugby.

amen brother!

geoff998rugby wrote:

Jackson has no Irish caps this wil be his debut

He played v Fiji. it was un capped for sponsorship reasons but the same thing really.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Jackson is not a conservative player - one of his qualities is beautiful hands that can and will open up defences in the years to come. I do not agree Madigan offers more in attack

He is more conservative than Madigan. Madigan scores more tries, attacks the line more and also has a excellent pass so yes he does offer more in attack.

Scotland team (sponsor RBS) to play Ireland in the RBS 6 Nations Championship on Sunday 24 February at Murrayfield (kick-off 2pm)
15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) 12 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps, 1 try, 5 points
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors) 73 caps, 9 tries, 45 points
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby) 9 caps, 1 try, 5 points
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby) 7 caps, 5 tries, 25 points
10 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors) 17 caps, 2 conversions, 2 penalties, 2 drop-goals, 16 points
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) vice-captain, 15 caps, 2 tries, 16 conversions and 26 penalties, 120 points
1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) vice-captain, 7 caps
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) 65 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
3 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby) 18 caps, 1 try, 5 points
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks) 29 caps, 1 try, 5 points
5 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester) 43 caps, 1 try, 5 points
6 Robert Harley (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps, 1 try, 5 points
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) captain, 54 caps, 4 tries, 20 points
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier) 18 caps, 3 tries, 15 points

Substitutes

16 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors), 40 caps, 1 try, 5 points
17 Jon Welsh (Glasgow Warriors), 1 cap
18 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors) 16 caps
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors) 49 caps, 1 try, 5 points
20 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby) 11 caps
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) 5 caps, 1 try, 5 points
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps, 1 conversion, 2 points
23 Max Evans (Castres) 34 caps, 3 tries, 15 points

http://www.scottishrugby.org/content/view/3433/2/

No I don't agree that Jackson is a conservative fly half. He stand flat and attacks the gainline.

Is he more attacking than Madigan? No. But I don't think he is less attacking than Madigan or Sexton either.

I'd say his running game is more developed and mature than his kicking game at this stage.

Good team. Not familiar with Robert Harley. Any good?

I'm quite happy to see Low on the bench and cross starting. That being said Gray and Hamilton is a monster 2nd row for the scrum.

Standulstermen wrote:I'm quite happy to see Low on the bench and cross starting. That being said Gray and Hamilton is a monster 2nd row for the scrum.

Don't worry we have Toner and DOC ......

GunsGerms wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Jackson has no Irish caps this wil be his debut

He played v Fiji. it was un capped for sponsorship reasons but the same thing really.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Jackson is not a conservative player - one of his qualities is beautiful hands that can and will open up defences in the years to come. I do not agree Madigan offers more in attack

He is more conservative than Madigan. Madigan scores more tries, attacks the line more and also has a excellent pass so yes he does offer more in attack.

So you agree Jackson has yet to receive a cap.

Scoring tries is not an example of offering more in attack - it is a reflection of how team attack. Not knocking Madigan's pas but Jackson has those lovely soft hand we see from BOD and Wallace so I stick to my point Jackson is not a conservative choice

geoff998rugby wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Jackson has no Irish caps this wil be his debut

He played v Fiji. it was un capped for sponsorship reasons but the same thing really.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Jackson is not a conservative player - one of his qualities is beautiful hands that can and will open up defences in the years to come. I do not agree Madigan offers more in attack

He is more conservative than Madigan. Madigan scores more tries, attacks the line more and also has a excellent pass so yes he does offer more in attack.

So you agree Jackson has yet to receive a cap.

Scoring tries is not an example of offering more in attack - it is a reflection of how team attack. Not knocking Madigan's pas but Jackson has those lovely soft hand we see from BOD and Wallace so I stick to my point Jackson is not a conservative choice

I hear Scotland are looking for a full time attack coach at the end of this six nations. You should drop them in your CV.

I was referring to the respective 10's not the team as a whole

Very stern looking face you've given me there. I beg to differ though. Sexton has a very good running game too but does not have as good a try scoring ratio as Madigan for the same club side. The lad is lightning and makes breaks for fun.

GunsGerms wrote:Good team. Not familiar with Robert Harley. Any good?

Yes, he certainly is, Guns.

Only 22, but captained Glasgow in Kellock's absence during last year's international window (when he'd just turned 21). This will only be his third cap - his first cap was against Samoa last June where he came on with 15 minutes to go and scored the winning try. You (or rather, Ronan O'Gara) will see why he is universally known as the Ginger Tackle Monster . He will turn the breakdown into quicksand and James Robson (Lions and Scotland team doctor) has often commented on how astonished he is by Harley's cardio - he's a machine. You can't miss the big ginger feller.

I like Madigan - I think he is a good player.

In fact I would have picked him myself.

However I think 'Guns' claim that Jackson is a conservative choice compared to Madigan is a load of nonsense.

GunsGerms wrote:Good team. Not familiar with Robert Harley. Any good?

Harley is like Fez, tackles anything that moves and disrupts the breakdown... Scotland play like SA with the flankers (Left and Right) as their usual opensides are injured and so Brown and Harley are a fairly destructive pair of choppers who can make an impact on the breakdown but not as much as a true openside. So expect SOB, POM and Marshall to be well shackled by them a lá Wales in the RWC.....

geoff998rugby wrote:I like Madigan - I think he is a good player.

In fact I would have picked him myself.

However I think 'Guns' claim that Jackson is a conservative choice compared to Madigan is a load of nonsense.

I said I think he is a more conservative player than Madigan. Obviously hit a nerve, I can picture smoke coming out of your ears. It is true though.

Why would you have picked Madigan?

GunsGerms wrote:Good team. Not familiar with Robert Harley. Any good?

He had a great game last week. First time I had seen him but looks to be a great breakdown operator.

Thanks for all the comments re Harley. Ill look out for him.

Guns, you won't need to look out for him. The guy is so ginger that he stands out like a beacon!

On one level, I'm an Ireland rugby fan because I'm Irish. But on another level, I am a ginger rugby player fan because I'm ginger. So, go on Harley and Jackson! Stand Up for the True Celts

Hopefully Ireland win and one of those lads gets MOTM

Notch wrote:On one level, I'm an Ireland rugby fan because I'm Irish. But on another level, I am a ginger rugby player fan because I'm ginger. So, go on Harley and Jackson! Stand Up for the True Celts

I knew there was something about ye, Notch. I'm assuming that the collar and cuffs match?

GunsGerms wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I like Madigan - I think he is a good player.

In fact I would have picked him myself.

However I think 'Guns' claim that Jackson is a conservative choice compared to Madigan is a load of nonsense.

I said I think he is a more conservative player than Madigan. Obviously hit a nerve, I can picture smoke coming out of your ears.

No smoke at all - I have long ago relized that boards like this are little more than mild amusment to address the tedium of work.

GunsGerms wrote: It is true though.

No its not...right where do we go from here................

GunsGerms wrote:Why would you have picked Madigan?

Simple - 3 years older, 1 more years experience and he is kicking for his Province Jackson isn't.

I would have held Jackson back and introduced him slowly to International rugby over the summer not in the cauldron and spotlight of the 6N. Madigan and Keatley could have covered (in that order) during the 6N.

I still have no doubt that in the long term Jackson is the better prospect

geoff998rugby wrote:

GunsGerms wrote: It is true though.

No its not...right where do we go from here................

Just admit Im right and we can call it quits?

George Carlin wrote:

Notch wrote:On one level, I'm an Ireland rugby fan because I'm Irish. But on another level, I am a ginger rugby player fan because I'm ginger. So, go on Harley and Jackson! Stand Up for the True Celts

I knew there was something about ye, Notch. I'm assuming that the collar and cuffs match?

A lady never tells.

But I'm a brawny male rugby fan. So i can say; f*ckin' right pal!

Imagine I said that last bit in the voice of Begbie from trainspotting

geoff998rugby wrote:

Simple - 3 years older, 1 more years experience and he is kicking for his Province Jackson isn't.

I would have held Jackson back and introduced him slowly to International rugby over the summer not in the cauldron and spotlight of the 6N. Madigan and Keatley could have covered (in that order) during the 6N.

I still have no doubt that in the long term Jackson is the better prospect

Fair enough. In three years JJ might be the main man. Hard to know whats gonna happen.

Leaked team is confirmed.

Ireland: 15-9 Rob Kearney, Craig Gilroy, BOD, Luke Marshall, Keith Earls, Paddy Jackson, Conor Murray;
1-8 Tom Court, Rory Best, Mike Ross, DOC, Donncha Ryan, POM, SOB, Jamie Heaslip.
Subs: Sean Cronin, Dave Kilcoyne, Deccie Fitz, Devin Toner, Iain Henderson, Eoin Reddan, ROG, Luke Fitz

How will BOD feel hearing that his partner in the center has been watching him play for Ireland since he was 9!!

Paddy J is a incredibly composed.

GunsGerms wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Simple - 3 years older, 1 more years experience and he is kicking for his Province Jackson isn't.

I would have held Jackson back and introduced him slowly to International rugby over the summer not in the cauldron and spotlight of the 6N. Madigan and Keatley could have covered (in that order) during the 6N.

I still have no doubt that in the long term Jackson is the better prospect

Fair enough. In three years JJ might be the main man. Hard to know whats gonna happen.

No it will be Olding with Jackson on the bench

Another gem courtesy of Mickado on twitter, 5 Ulster, 5 Leinster, 5 Munster in the starting XV...

Noticed that gives the team a certain symmetry dont you think

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Another gem courtesy of Mickado on twitter, 5 Ulster, 5 Leinster, 5 Munster in the starting XV...

Too many Munster players.

Ruuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!

All we need now is 5 Connachtmen on the bench and a few Exiles and everyone's happy!

rodders wrote:The IRFU will look for a successor who is absolutely not his own man. Thats why O'Shea cleared off, Gatland got the chop and they are grooming Ruddock and Foley to take over.

O'Shea never cleared off. He was never here in the first place.

You think O'Shea would work for the RFU because could continue to be "his his own man"

GunsGerms wrote:

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Another gem courtesy of Mickado on twitter, 5 Ulster, 5 Leinster, 5 Munster in the starting XV...

Too many Munster players.

Ruuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!

The only time Ireland was any use was when it was predominently made of Ulster players (mid-'80s) and Munster players ('00s). The rest of the time Ireland was dominated by Leinster players and we won nothing.