Ireland Squad for Murrayfield- Kidneys Toughest Moments?

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29 man squad for the visit to Scotland.

Ireland Squad - Backs: Rob Kearney (Leinster), Robbie Henshaw (Connacht), Fergus McFadden (Leinster), Craig Gilroy (Ulster), Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster), Keith Earls (Munster), Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster), Darren Cave (Ulster), Luke Marshall (Ulster), Ronan O'Gara (Munster), Paddy Jackson (Ulster), Conor Murray (Munster), Eoin Reddan (Leinster)

Forwards: Rory Best (Ulster), Seán Cronin (Leinster), Tom Court (Ulster), David Kilcoyne (Munster), Mike Ross (Leinster), Declan Fitzpatrick (Ulster), Donnacha Ryan (Munster), Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster), Lewis Stevenson (Ulster), Devin Toner (Leinster), Peter O'Mahony (Munster), James Coughlan (Munster), Iain Henderson (Ulster), Seán O'Brien (Leinster), Chris Henry (Ulster), Jamie Heaslip (Leinster).

Some weeks are from hell.

For Declan Kidney, when he's done, he might just look back on this week as one of the toughest he's faced since taking over the Ireland job. The discussion, analysis and bickering will take place below but I want to frame it by saying I do not envy him one bit. Indeed, I feel sorry for him when I think of the calls he must make. Let us hope necessity is the mother of invention- and that the character of the 15 men on the pitch is enough to carry us over the line.

Ireland Abú. G'wan Ireland.

The Great Aukster wrote:I dunno Neil, The Eirian race should have clear measurable distinct qualities and losing to France is right up there. The only problem is that we all would have to accept that BOD would have been thrown out after his first game as not being Oirish enough. Still there would no doubt have been plenty of other countries who would have taken him so at least he still could have had a career and probably even won a World Cup or two.

But sure it's far better to win nothing and know you're "pure" Irish than have a chance of a devalued win by recruiting a few plastic paddies.

I think the English are probably experts on that one.

mankiaow wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:I dunno Neil, The Eirian race should have clear measurable distinct qualities and losing to France is right up there. The only problem is that we all would have to accept that BOD would have been thrown out after his first game as not being Oirish enough. Still there would no doubt have been plenty of other countries who would have taken him so at least he still could have had a career and probably even won a World Cup or two.

But sure it's far better to win nothing and know you're "pure" Irish than have a chance of a devalued win by recruiting a few plastic paddies.

I think the English are probably experts on that one.

They have it down to a fine art, mind you so do the likes of New Zealand

Aukster wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:McIlroy for example in golf even though he has represented Ireland has said he feels more British and would rather represent Britain. I was curious as to whether some rugby fans might feel that way too. Curiosity has well and truly killed this cat and will avoid the subject from now on.

McIlroy has distanced himself from that position because he upset the Irish media so much.

I don't know any Ireland rugby fans based in NI who consider ROI players to be foreign players, because that would be frankly ridiculous. The far more obvious question is whether ROI rugby fans consider "British" players from NI to be "foreign"?

He said he might lean towards Britain. This is what annoys me- a lot of people seem to have the view that it's a binary thing. You are either British or Irish. The likes of McIlroy would represent either country with a lot of pride. We are both British and Irish. But some people refuse to accept it, hence the outroar. The truth is most people here support Northern Ireland athletes in an Olympic context whether they represent Britain or Ireland. Martyn Irvine recently made back pages here in NI after winning World Championship gold in the colours of Ireland-

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/other/2013/0221/1224330350076.html

I was sitting with a few older Ireland fans from Ulster at the England game and they sang God Save The Queen and Ireland's Call with equal passion. Some of those guys have been going to Ireland international matches since the 1980s. They are no less passionate Ireland fans whatever they consider their nationality to be.

Isn't that what our rugby team is meant to be all about? Some sing one anthem, some sing the other and then we all come together as one? Because it seems to be something we are losing sight of.

Here here Notch, I support Irish rugby and I support Northern ireland people in all sports no matter who they play for I see myself as half british, half irish or as I like to call it Northern irish

I'm completely underwhelmed by Jackson. I see no star quality there. Why is he favoured over Madigan and Keatley?

neilthom7 wrote:Here here Notch, I support Irish rugby and I support Northern ireland people in all sports no matter who they play for I see myself as half british, half irish or as I like to call it Northern irish

But Ireland is special. Once they pull on that green jersey, it's OUR team. Munster, Ulster, Leinster and Connacht. I feel like we're in danger of losing that very special thing in this inter-provincial age.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I'm completely underwhelmed by Jackson. I see no star quality there. Why is he favoured over Madigan and Keatley?

Secret conspiracies.

Notch wrote:

Aukster wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:McIlroy for example in golf even though he has represented Ireland has said he feels more British and would rather represent Britain. I was curious as to whether some rugby fans might feel that way too. Curiosity has well and truly killed this cat and will avoid the subject from now on.

McIlroy has distanced himself from that position because he upset the Irish media so much.

I don't know any Ireland rugby fans based in NI who consider ROI players to be foreign players, because that would be frankly ridiculous. The far more obvious question is whether ROI rugby fans consider "British" players from NI to be "foreign"?

He said he might lean towards Britain. This is what annoys me- a lot of people seem to have the view that it's a binary thing. You are either British or Irish. The likes of McIlroy would represent either country with a lot of pride. We are both British and Irish. But some people refuse to accept it, hence the outroar. The truth is most people here support Northern Ireland athletes in an Olympic context whether they represent Britain or Ireland. Martyn Irvine recently made back pages here in NI after winning World Championship gold in the colours of Ireland-

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/other/2013/0221/1224330350076.html

I was sitting with a few older Ireland fans from Ulster at the England game and they sang God Save The Queen and Ireland's Call with equal passion. Some of those guys have been going to Ireland international matches since the 1980s. They are no less passionate Ireland fans whatever they consider their nationality to be.

Isn't that what our rugby team is meant to be all about? Some sing one anthem, some sing the other and then we all come together as one? Because it seems to be something we are losing sight of.

People like me in the republic at times see it as a binary thing because that's all we know because we haven't really grown up with the same cultural mix. That's not to say that I cant appreciate how it is for NI fans and respect their background and loyalties.

Strangely everywhere I go it has always been presumed that I am protestant because of my name. Its not something that has ever bothered me. My friends call actually me Cromwell. No joke.

Irelands Womens team just one their first ever triple crown.

Golden wrote:Irelands Womens team just one their first ever triple crown.

Great news.

Notch wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:I'm completely underwhelmed by Jackson. I see no star quality there. Why is he favoured over Madigan and Keatley?

Secret conspiracies.

I just think its a poor selection. We actually have recent evidence of how Jackson could react to being thrown in at the deep end. It happened to him in the last HC final. And he had a howler.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Notch wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:I'm completely underwhelmed by Jackson. I see no star quality there. Why is he favoured over Madigan and Keatley?

Secret conspiracies.

I just think its a poor selection. We actually have recent evidence of how Jackson could react to being thrown in at the deep end. It happened to him in the last HC final. And he had a howler.

We'll find out tomorrow for sure. I hope he has a great game

I hope he does too and Feckless read BBC interview with BOD on him

Sure what does BOD know!

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Notch wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:I'm completely underwhelmed by Jackson. I see no star quality there. Why is he favoured over Madigan and Keatley?

Secret conspiracies.

I just think its a poor selection. We actually have recent evidence of how Jackson could react to being thrown in at the deep end. It happened to him in the last HC final. And he had a howler.

I think that is overstated. He had a few poor kicks from hand and a poor game. That doesn't mean he will never be good enough. Already since then he has come a long way- he had a poor game but reacted to it the right way and became a better, stronger player. I would bet that he does well tomorrow although I would have McFadden on the bench covering place kicking.

I understand this skepticism but I would urge everyone to judge him on the basis of tomorrows game. Sadly I think there is a wee bit of selective howler syndrome at play here already. There needs to be patience with a young talent like Jackson. He's 21. And he's going to be a very special player indeed. I just wish/hope he that he's fully fit.

I would definately have Jackson ahead of Keatley. But I can't understand how he is ahead of Madigan; who was simply outstanding tonight in our demolition of the same Scarlets team that beat Munster.

Jackson didn't have his best game in Twickenham but he certainly wasn't the reason Ulster lost that match.

I think most folk would agree that Madigan is a great talent too. The real question is why Kidney didn't bring him into the squad. I doubt anyone would have argued if it had been him or Jackson.

Madser showed why he should be in the team, made the difference from the bench. But it should be instead of O'Gara not Jackson. He's a brilliant gamechanger, and would be perfect to unleash on a tired defence with 20 to go!

Yeah, Madigan is supremely talented. How he hasn't been noticed yet by the IRFU is unbelievable. Every game he plays for Leinster he rips the opposition defence to shreds. You can't give the guy any sort of space.

Okay guys.

Taking bets on how long until we start seeing the "Sexton or ROG" wars on here become the Jackson or Madigan wars?

Actually, since neither of them play for a certain province we might all be able to agree that they are both great talents.

His place kicking is getting pretty goo too. He got two difficult kicks when he came on.

I think everyone is delighted that Jackson is starting ahead of ROG though. Jackson should be solid enough.

All great news for the national side in the near future.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I would definately have Jackson ahead of Keatley. But I can't understand how he is ahead of Madigan; who was simply outstanding tonight in our demolition of the same Scarlets team that beat Munster.

Kidney dislikes Madigan. Not his style of player at all. Shame really.

MrsP, I think Johnny Sexton will still have a few things to say about that. Hopefully ROG retires this summer and clears the way for the new guys.

Fantastic for all concerned that Madigan had a good game. He's growing with confidence every game he plays and his ability to change a game is vital.

I honestly don't mind who starts as long as it's one of Madigan or Jackson. Radge is only there as Kidney somehow doesn't rate Madigan... Which is truly ridiculous... He's our Carlos Spencer!

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Fantastic for all concerned that Madigan had a good game. He's growing with confidence every game he plays and his ability to change a game is vital.

I honestly don't mind who starts as long as it's one of Madigan or Jackson. Radge is only there as Kidney somehow doesn't rate Madigan... Which is truly ridiculous... He's our Carlos Spencer!

Didn't realise it was Kidney who held him back too!



Anyone got any insight into why he isn't rated by Kidney? Is it a personality thing or has he just not caught his eye? Although, quite what else he would have to do to catch his eye is hard to understand.

It's kind of diabolical that Kidney travelled to Llanelli to see the Scarlets beat Munster when it was on TV instead of going to Leinster to monitor Madigan's progress and getting the Scarlets game on the TV... Silly really!

Madigan seems to play a high risk game. I wouldn't say he controls the game like ROG used to or Sexton would.. he is a very dangerous player though. If you give him any sort of space he will exploit it and he has a lightening pass. His kicking is improving although even tonight he missed two touch finders from a penalty. I would say if his team is on the back foot he would be a bit lost. This may be why Kidney chooses to ignore him over other options.

Don't forget to add Hanrahan to the 10 wars in the near future. Hanrahan might even be the most talented of the lot!

Im going to go against the tide. Madigan lacks a complete skill set. He was second choice for Leinster and would only feature for them in the event of injury to better players than himself.

Most of what he does is in the Rabo where to be honest there is nothing at state.

He is clearly a talented player but is defintely behind Sexton and Jackson in my book. I do think that he is better than O'Gara but I think for tomorrows match ROG is needed on the bench given that Jackson is also making his debut.

With Sexton leaving Madigan will add extra arrows to his quiver but for tomorrows game he isnt the right man.

The 20 year old Jackson who played in the HC is not the 21 year old playing today.

He is playing because he is seen as the backup and eventaul replacement for Sexton - Madigan isn't.

Personally I think it is a bit soon and would have played Madigan.
I suppose part of the thinking was at least he and Marshall know each other but a brave call to pick an uncapped 10 and 12

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Notch wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:I'm completely underwhelmed by Jackson. I see no star quality there. Why is he favoured over Madigan and Keatley?

Secret conspiracies.

I just think its a poor selection. We actually have recent evidence of how Jackson could react to being thrown in at the deep end. It happened to him in the last HC final. And he had a howler.

That logic is flawed though, Madigan has never been thrown in to the deep end at the outhalf position at least. I love Madigan and believe he could be a great guy going forward, some things he will get with experience, such as territorial kicking which I haven't seen from him too often.


Stag, ROG lacked a complete skill set. Doesn't mean you can't be great and successful without having it all. You build arond the guy and work with what you have instead of what you don't have. Kudos to Deccie and EOS for doing that with ROG.

ROG lacked a complete skill set. He also lacked competition.

He bested Humphreys who was probably a more complete player then him. You put a system in plce to maximize the talents of the guys you have. People wonder why Sexton isn' as effective for Ireland, that's one of the big reasons, we play a game he isn't suited to. It suited O'Gara back in the day.

How bad was that 2 metres from the line with a penatly advantage and we did nothing with the ball. Hate watching Ireland play.

Dear dear Barnesy's lovin' the Scots so far - could've had 2 or 3 yellows

Well to be fair... He was poor at refereeing both sides!

Well, congratulations to Scotland for..................... hanging in there long enough to show up, once again, Ireland's absolute freefall as a team. I wish I could say that more positively for Scotland - but we all know where that game was lost - up in the Irish crowsnest in the stands.

As individual players, the Irish gave the stats to prove how potent they can be - as a team, they have no anchor, no rudder, no bridge, no bow, no stern.

More excuses from camp were churned out - the same old piece of crumpled up paper - "We didn't take our chances." Well, now the chance is there - the ship is sinking fast. The coaches should jump now We'll throw the life boats in later

Anyone else feel we need Iain Henderson to start at 6? At least he can give us a ball-carrying option in the backrow, which we lack. Obviously there are some tactical things which we've seen again and again and they are not going to get fixed. All we can do is change who wears the shirts. But I would pick the following for France.

Court Best Ross
O'Callaghan Ryan
Henderson Heaslip SOB
Murray Jackson
Marshall BOD
McFadden Kearney Gilroy

I wish we had an alternative for DOC. Stevenson maybe? And Murray- Reddan or Marshall?

Notch wrote:Anyone else feel we need Iain Henderson to start at 6? At least he can give us a ball-carrying option in the backrow, which we lack.

Won't make any difference. The balance of the backrow is wrong. Kidney has failed to learn that SOB/Heaslip/Ferris didn't work. Replacing Ferris with the far inferior POM unsurprisingly doesn't work wither. We had the form 7 in european club rugby on the bench and now he is injured. Henderson won't make any difference- we don't need the best individual players, we need the best unit. None of the English backrow that played us would be in Kidney's Irish side yet they utterly, utterly dominated us at key times at the breakdown in terms of turnovers and penalties.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Notch wrote:Anyone else feel we need Iain Henderson to start at 6? At least he can give us a ball-carrying option in the backrow, which we lack.

Won't make any difference. The balance of the backrow is wrong. Kidney has failed to learn that SOB/Heaslip/Ferris didn't work. Replacing Ferris with the far inferior POM unsurprisingly doesn't work wither. We had the form 7 in european club rugby on the bench and now he is injured. Henderson won't make any difference- we don't need the best individual players, we need the best unit. None of the English backrow that played us would be in Kidney's Irish side yet they utterly, utterly dominated us at key times at the breakdown in terms of turnovers and penalties.

But even if it comes down to not contesting the breakdown and working as a unit- we don't even have anyone in our backrow who can break a tackle!

I know there are things which can't/won't be fixed at this stage regardless of personnel. I don't expect us to become a good team by changing a few players, because our attention to detail is sorely lacking, but if our only idea a few metres from the line is to give it to a static, isolated forward to take contact at least let's pick a big lad who is less likely to get bowled backwards.

I don't think ball carrying is the issue, rather that the players doing the carrying are just running into tackles with the ball under one arm and not looking to offload or support...getting isolated. O'Brien is a big culprit, as with Earls on the few breaks he made he just ran away from what little support we had, the rest of the time he is just getting knocked backwards because he is so predictable.

There is no gameplan at all.

yes though I would lile to see Henderson, he has power as well as good hands but I think individual changes will not fix this.

Notch wrote:Anyone else feel we need Iain Henderson to start at 6? At least he can give us a ball-carrying option in the backrow, which we lack. Obviously there are some tactical things which we've seen again and again and they are not going to get fixed. All we can do is change who wears the shirts. But I would pick the following for France.

Court Best Ross
O'Callaghan Ryan
Henderson Heaslip SOB
Murray Jackson
Marshall BOD
McFadden Kearney Gilroy

I wish we had an alternative for DOC. Stevenson maybe? And Murray- Reddan or Marshall?

Agree with this sentiment 100%. Henderson is not just the future,he is the present.Athletic,great handling skills,and always makes hard intelligent yards,he should be starting either in the 2nd row or on in the back row.

Murray continues to be a big question mark for me (in terms of purely individual players and what they are bringing). His temperament is too - well distant, po-faced, taciturn for a 9. Nines need to be generals in their own minds..they need to do more than actually the practicalities of their job. They are meant to create tempo. They have to inject that giddy desire in their backs for work and invention. A lot of that work is done in body language...in talking to and remonstrating with teammates...psyching his backs up, preparing them and pushing them to get into the game. Murray just doesn't strike me as a player who brings that quality. He's a good Provinical player bringing a needlessly morbid calmness to his role, even when he knows the game needs a greater tempo.
He sometimes looks like he might be learning to get more emotionally involved and then he just goes backwards in my eyes. The players MUST know when the game needs a re-injection of tempo - they must know when a game is starting to go away from them. This sixth sense seems to have gone AWOL with the Irish.

rodders wrote:I don't think ball carrying is the issue, rather that the players doing the carrying are just running into tackles with the ball under one arm and not looking to offload or support...getting isolated. O'Brien is a big culprit, as with Earls on the few breaks he made he just ran away from what little support we had, the rest of the time he is just getting knocked backwards because he is so predictable.

There is no gameplan at all.

yes though I would lile to see Henderson, he has power as well as good hands but I think individual changes will not fix this.

O'Brien made excellent breaks. It's not his fault the other players were not busting their asses to support him. He only ran away from support in the sense that he was moving in a forward direction and no one else in green was. Earls on the other hand decided to go for the outside break and use his speed. Love to see this but he never even looked to see what options were on. And when it was obvious he was going to be tackled didn't try to get the ball in two hands to offload.
I think the Earls example proves that he will never be a top centre. He had time and space and didn't even try to assess other options.
On the plus side Luke Marshall did a lot of good things in his first game and will benefit from the experience as will Paddy Jackson who was quite inventive with his backline made space for those outside him and showed good physicality in contact.

Earls looked round and saw O'Driscoll and decided to go it alone. Even if O'Driscoll wouldn't have made it, passing would have kept the move alive. It was a shocking decision, one schoolboys get slated for.

As with Earls O'Brien carries the ball one handed leaving himself with only one option. They aren't the only ones.

Support play is an issue too but when support is there and players ingore it then that is no excuse.

Ireland are not a patient team, they always try to score off each phase which is asking too much and often turn the ball over or lose it in the contact area. England at the moment are supreme as far as patience is concerned similar to Wales in 2008. Just get the basics right and take the points on offer. Ireland need more patience and composure for me among other things of course

rodders wrote:yes though I would lile to see Henderson, he has power as well as good hands but I think individual changes will not fix this.

This isn't going to get fixed this Six Nations- these are Kidneys Führerbunker moments. We try and get a new man to start fixing this in the summer. The rest of the Six Nations is about making do with where we are and trying to win games anyway. With better execution it's still possible for us to win a game or two and if we are going to insist on static, isolated forwards carrying the ball for a net gain of a yard or two... we at least should pick someone with a bit of power!

No agree on Hendo. He'd bring more dynamism for sure.

RubyGuby wrote:Ireland are not a patient team, they always try to score off each phase which is asking too much and often turn the ball over or lose it in the contact area. England at the moment are supreme as far as patience is concerned similar to Wales in 2008. Just get the basics right and take the points on offer. Ireland need more patience and composure for me among other things of course

Hmmm, we've kept a dud coaching team for the best part of four years....... that's patience with bells on...that's Forty Shade of Grey patience in the most masochistic way.

I know that Fly and I know your wumming nicely but Ireland do seem to lack a bit of patience in key areas and I think it's down to having too many "runners" in the back row, instead of steadily building phase after phase. Defences are so organised now (apart from Wales's 45 minutes of Xmas presents) - I think Ireland have the players to strangle a game, they just seem to want to try and too things too quickly - I wonder if this is a bi-product of the Rabo where you can get away with that kind of intensity and break teams down quicker

The Great Aukster wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:McIlroy for example in golf even though he has represented Ireland has said he feels more British and would rather represent Britain. I was curious as to whether some rugby fans might feel that way too. Curiosity has well and truly killed this cat and will avoid the subject from now on.

I don't think we have a shallow pool of talent though that's my point. I don't think we need imports.

McIlroy has distanced himself from that position because he upset the Irish media so much.

I don't know any Ireland rugby fans based in NI who consider ROI players to be foreign players, because that would be frankly ridiculous. The far more obvious question is whether ROI rugby fans consider "British" players from NI to be "foreign"?

The Test qualification rules are clear and it is totally disingenuous to decry players who have committed three years of their professional careers to become Ireland qualified as somehow less desirable to someone who has never been in the country but just happens to have the minimum quantity of approved DNA. Should the IRB subject every player to genetic testing to see if they're made of the right stuff?

Maybe it shouldn't be scientific but cultural - perhaps every player should be tested on Yeats and Joyce? I'd say Strauss would stand a much better chance than Bent on that one.

As soon as an Irishman like McIlroy declares he wants to represent another country, he makes himself foreign to the majority on the island of Ireland. Nothing wrong with that and best of luck to him.

I (from ROI) share the same nationality with Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Rory Best and anyone else who play rugby for Ireland until they decide to represent another nation which I'm not part of. They are foreign to me then, but they are not foreign to some of you.

PS - I think McIlroy's change of heart has a lot more to do with the 80m (or whatever) self-declared Irish Americans rather than the Irish media.