Ireland Squad for Murrayfield- Kidneys Toughest Moments?

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29 man squad for the visit to Scotland.

Ireland Squad - Backs: Rob Kearney (Leinster), Robbie Henshaw (Connacht), Fergus McFadden (Leinster), Craig Gilroy (Ulster), Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster), Keith Earls (Munster), Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster), Darren Cave (Ulster), Luke Marshall (Ulster), Ronan O'Gara (Munster), Paddy Jackson (Ulster), Conor Murray (Munster), Eoin Reddan (Leinster)

Forwards: Rory Best (Ulster), Seán Cronin (Leinster), Tom Court (Ulster), David Kilcoyne (Munster), Mike Ross (Leinster), Declan Fitzpatrick (Ulster), Donnacha Ryan (Munster), Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster), Lewis Stevenson (Ulster), Devin Toner (Leinster), Peter O'Mahony (Munster), James Coughlan (Munster), Iain Henderson (Ulster), Seán O'Brien (Leinster), Chris Henry (Ulster), Jamie Heaslip (Leinster).

Some weeks are from hell.

For Declan Kidney, when he's done, he might just look back on this week as one of the toughest he's faced since taking over the Ireland job. The discussion, analysis and bickering will take place below but I want to frame it by saying I do not envy him one bit. Indeed, I feel sorry for him when I think of the calls he must make. Let us hope necessity is the mother of invention- and that the character of the 15 men on the pitch is enough to carry us over the line.

Ireland Abú. G'wan Ireland.

I take it you've disowned Sonia O'Sullivan then Sin?

Didn't ROG almost decide to play for the US Eagles too?

RubyGuby wrote:I know that Fly and I know your wumming nicely but Ireland do seem to lack a bit of patience in key areas and I think it's down to having too many "runners" in the back row, instead of steadily building phase after phase. Defences are so organised now (apart from Wales's 45 minutes of Xmas presents) - I think Ireland have the players to strangle a game, they just seem to want to try and too things too quickly - I wonder if this is a bi-product of the Rabo where you can get away with that kind of intensity and break teams down quicker

Well, when I get over my 'wumming' I can talk seriously enough, Ruby... and I repeat (well, I said it somewhere in these threads, don't make me remember where) I repeat that we have a bunch of erratic runners doing the erratic stuff because we lack the coaching required to bring them to boot, control their instincts and guide it into an effective gameplan. That's coaching. That should be coaching.

Players are great players all over the world but when they have coaches who are doing an ineffective job (French and Irish ones most notably this season..and other seasons!) then the players become headless chickens. Players, skilled ones too, need formations and directions so that they all help each other out when something good happens...that's all design, it has nothing to do with a back telepathically communicating with a forward - it's design, it's a gameplan, it's strategy, and it should come from the guys paid to coach. But back to me 'wummin''

rodders wrote:Earls looked round and saw O'Driscoll and decided to go it alone. Even if O'Driscoll wouldn't have made it, passing would have kept the move alive. It was a shocking decision, one schoolboys get slated for.

As with Earls O'Brien carries the ball one handed leaving himself with only one option. They aren't the only ones.

Support play is an issue too but when support is there and players ingore it then that is no excuse.

How in the name of jebus could Earls have seen O'Driscoll he was about 10 m behind him and even if he knew he was there, they were surrounded by 4 or 5 Scottish defenders. BOD wouldn't have scored either - he doesn't have the legs for it - in fact,can you blame Earls for not attempting a pass - he didn't expect to get any support.

rodders wrote:I take it you've disowned Sonia O'Sullivan then Sin?

Didn't ROG almost decide to play for the US Eagles too?

The only country Sonia has represented, is Ireland. She did intend to represent Australia in some mickey mouse competition that Ireland can't compete in and looked at what happened

Nope - ROG didn't almost decide to play for the US Eagles - George Hook/EOS might have wanted him to, but he resisted the temptation.

Come on Sin ...Earl's backed himself to slice past the defenders but his line of running and defender's positioning (4 or 5???) meant he was never going to make it. He was going to be pushed out on the sideline like happens to him quite a good few times. And all because he backs himself to do the impossible and hopes to reap the plaudits for it. Players have voices, players use them, players hear each other on the field, even in loud crowds, and I'm sure O'Driscoll let him know he had an option, not a certainty, an option.

In any case, even if he didn't, he should have relented, realised he wouldn't make it and try to change the angle to come back in and away from the sideline. Most wings today kinda do that almost automatically to try to keep the move alive.

A lovely break and then a mistake.

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Fantastic for all concerned that Madigan had a good game. He's growing with confidence every game he plays and his ability to change a game is vital.

I honestly don't mind who starts as long as it's one of Madigan or Jackson. Radge is only there as Kidney somehow doesn't rate Madigan... Which is truly ridiculous... He's our Carlos Spencer!

Having Schmidt as his coach must be worrying for Madigan then, bearing in mind that Schmidt was Carlos Spencer's hatchet man. Schmidt is a very unpopular man down in Auckland because he preferred a journeyman kicking outhalf to Spencer (who ended up in Clermont I think)!

SecretFly wrote:Come on Sin ...Earl's backed himself to slice past the defenders but his line of running and defender's positioning (4 or 5???) meant he was never going to make it. He was going to be pushed out on the sideline like happens to him quite a good few times. And all because he backs himself to do the impossible and hopes to reap the plaudits for it. Players have voices, players use them, players hear each other on the field, even in loud crowds, and I'm sure O'Driscoll let him know he had an option, not a certainty, an option.

In any case, even if he didn't, he should have relented, realised he wouldn't make it and try to change the angle to come back in and away from the sideline. Most wings today kinda do that almost automatically to try to keep the move alive.

A lovely break and then a mistake.

If BOD was on his shoulder, he might have had a chance. I'd be pretty sure all the Scottish lads were shouting at him as well to pass to them! BOD just doesn't have the legs anymore (he still has good acceleration and can do it for about a 10 metre run-in). If that situation happened with Munster, Zebo would have been right on Earls' shoulder for the offload.

Sin é wrote:

If BOD was on his shoulder, he might have had a chance. I'd be pretty sure all the Scottish lads were shouting at him as well to pass to them! BOD just doesn't have the legs anymore (he still has good acceleration and can do it for about a 10 metre run-in). If that situation happened with Munster, Zebo would have been right on Earls' shoulder for the offload.

Yeah, right Sin... Earl's made the mature instant calculation in his head that O'Driscoll was out of bounds...but he missed out on the calculation that if he continued on his merry way, so would he.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Earls looked round and saw O'Driscoll and decided to go it alone. Even if O'Driscoll wouldn't have made it, passing would have kept the move alive. It was a shocking decision, one schoolboys get slated for.

As with Earls O'Brien carries the ball one handed leaving himself with only one option. They aren't the only ones.

Support play is an issue too but when support is there and players ingore it then that is no excuse.

How in the name of jebus could Earls have seen O'Driscoll he was about 10 m behind him and even if he knew he was there, they were surrounded by 4 or 5 Scottish defenders. BOD wouldn't have scored either - he doesn't have the legs for it - in fact,can you blame Earls for not attempting a pass - he didn't expect to get any support.

I find it hard to believe you've actually rewatched this incident. All Earls had to do was draw the defenders and give the inside pass. It wasn't that BOD was far out. Eventually he outpaced the support but BOD stays with him.

Whats more is Earls looks directly at Brian O'Driscoll seconds before he tries to take Hogg (who isn't buying it) on the outside. And you can bet your bottom dollar BOD will have given him a shout.

He gives it might not be a try but if he doesn't it definitely isn't. The criticism is fair. He still needs to work on his decision making. It was a brilliant break from nothing. If you could add a rugby brain to that pace and footwork we could have seriously good player. But it hasn't happened yet! Unfulfilled potential.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

If BOD was on his shoulder, he might have had a chance. I'd be pretty sure all the Scottish lads were shouting at him as well to pass to them! BOD just doesn't have the legs anymore (he still has good acceleration and can do it for about a 10 metre run-in). If that situation happened with Munster, Zebo would have been right on Earls' shoulder for the offload.

Yeah, right Sin... Earl's made the mature instant calculation in his head that O'Driscoll was out of bounds...but he missed out on the calculation that if he continued on his merry way, so would he.

I'd say he knows instinctively that BOD would be a fair bit behind him and he had the best chance of making it. Fair play to the Scots, they were defending well and they had it covered.

There's no point in debating with Sin on this matter as no Munster can ever do any wrong. Best ignore him lads

You know it was a missed opportunity by the incredulous reaction of BOD. How often has he ever taken a player to task on the pitch in such a fashion? Still I would rather have Earls in the team to create those opportunities. He backed himself wrongly and he failed. At the end of the day its not that big of a deal. To say (as some have) that he should never play for Ireland again is lunacy. He'd be in my team again against France. On the wing naturally. Do we really need any further evidence he doesn't have the vision and ability to bring other players into the game at centre?

Sin é wrote:

Having Schmidt as his coach must be worrying for Madigan then, bearing in mind that Schmidt was Carlos Spencer's hatchet man. Schmidt is a very unpopular man down in Auckland because he preferred a journeyman kicking outhalf to Spencer (who ended up in Clermont I think)!

Hmmm, someone's doing a lot of homework on Schmidt............... it can only mean one thing, he's favourite to take over from Kidney. The ammo is being loaded as I speak.

back at the office:

Schmidt "I remember when I was coaching Super Rugby, we brought in Tasesa Lavea to play instead of Carlos Spencer who was an institution in Auckland and I think that (with) those sort of things, there is always an element of uncertainty. That was great because we got the result and things panned out, but you just don't know."

So firstly, that's what Schmidt thinks...and secondly, he wasn't head coach (decision maker)

Inhabitants of Northern Ireland have dual nationality and are at liberty to hold two passports. However the IOC delineate on sovereign country boundaries and so treat Ireland as the 26 county ROI and NI as part of the UK, so purely for Olympic purposes inhabitants of NI have several choices:
- They consider themselves Irish nationality and choose to represent another country - the ROI
- They consider themselves Irish nationality but represent the country they live in - the UK
- They consider themselves British nationality and represent UK
- They withdraw from selection and so don't alienate anyone

McIlroy is likely to opt for the last one, unless Nike tell him otherwise.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:There's no point in debating with Sin on this matter as no Munster can ever do any wrong. Best ignore him lads

You know it was a missed opportunity by the incredulous reaction of BOD. How often has he ever taken a player to task on the pitch in such a fashion? Still I would rather have Earls in the team to create those opportunities. He backed himself wrongly and he failed. At the end of the day its not that big of a deal. To say (as some have) that he should never play for Ireland again is lunacy. He'd be in my team again against France. On the wing naturally. Do we really need any further evidence he doesn't have the vision and ability to bring other players into the game at centre?

I can think of at least one occasion.

He backed himself, but I don't think its unreasonable to think that BOD doesn't have the legs that far out.

Thing is that Earls plays centre most of the time and normally he would have expected to have Zebo out there and that is probably why he instinctively went in that direction.

BOD wouldn't have scored anyway and with the amount of Scottish defenders around, he probably would have got turned over and you would all be berating Earls for not backing himself.

Sorry Sin, no amount of goalpost shifting for yourself can disguise what everyone saw on the replay of the incident. Even the Munster meedja have pointed out he butchered the opportunity. But that is what it was, an opportunity. BOD was not certain to score but that close to the line running at full pelt I don't see the Scottish defenders being able to stop him, some of whom would have been immediately caught off balance by a simple change of direction in the attack with a simple pass from Earls. He made a call and it was the wrong one. You know how big a chance it was by BOD's reaction. It wasn't a certain try but it was more likely than the blind ally running by Earls.

Thems the breaks in rugby, but people are going over the top about it. Marshall was guilty of some grade A butchery himself but few posters are taking him to task on it. Inexperienced or not they were poor mistakes. Earls didn't have his best game for Ireland but he was not the worst performer on the pitch by a long stretch.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Having Schmidt as his coach must be worrying for Madigan then, bearing in mind that Schmidt was Carlos Spencer's hatchet man. Schmidt is a very unpopular man down in Auckland because he preferred a journeyman kicking outhalf to Spencer (who ended up in Clermont I think)!

Hmmm, someone's doing a lot of homework on Schmidt............... it can only mean one thing, he's favourite to take over from Kidney. The ammo is being loaded as I speak.

back at the office:

Schmidt "I remember when I was coaching Super Rugby, we brought in Tasesa Lavea to play instead of Carlos Spencer who was an institution in Auckland and I think that (with) those sort of things, there is always an element of uncertainty. That was great because we got the result and things panned out, but you just don't know."

So firstly, that's what Schmidt thinks...and secondly, he wasn't head coach (decision maker)

Thats Schmidt's version of it. Schmidt is hated in Auckland (almost as much as Kidney is in Leinster) because he was the backs coach that dumped Spencer (I picked up that bit of opinion from the NZ press about the time he was being touted for the All Backs job).

Anyway, my point is that there are very few international coaches who would go for a player like Madigan. ABs management preferred Andrew Mehrtens to Spencer.

There's another one...

- They can elect to choose with their Heart and play for the Nation it's with... (regardless of alienation)

McIlroy has spoken of his sense of self, it's out there, it can't be re-enveloped. We heard him say it, the world never forgets anymore in this age of Youtube and Twitter. So just go with his declared sense of identity and play.

Of course it is upsetting for sporting/golfing fans in the Republic who feel his 'more' Britishness is a paralled reference to being somehow 'un-Irish' (his instinctive right of course to be what he is and believes himself to be, but their instinctive right too coming from their Nation to feel Irishness shouldn't need qualification with reference to something else.)

So saddening for the Irish fans who have regarded him as Irish - in the rugby sense/island-of way.) But then the division of this island and its loyalties has always been a sad story.

Anyway, he should play because he would love to play in the Olympics, he should play because nothing external (fan issues) should have the right to prevent him playing; and he should play for the Nation he feels most connected to - the UK. To hell with us Southerners, we'll get over it...and we have our 'great' white hope anyway....Lowry

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Sorry Sin, no amount of goalpost shifting for yourself can disguise what everyone saw on the replay of the incident. Even the Munster meedja have pointed out he butchered the opportunity. But that is what it was, an opportunity. BOD was not certain to score but that close to the line running at full pelt I don't see the Scottish defenders being able to stop him, some of whom would have been immediately caught off balance by a simple change of direction in the attack with a simple pass from Earls. He made a call and it was the wrong one. You know how big a chance it was by BOD's reaction. It wasn't a certain try but it was more likely than the blind ally running by Earls.

Thems the breaks in rugby, but people are going over the top about it. Marshall was guilty of some grade A butchery himself but few posters are taking him to task on it. Inexperienced or not they were poor mistakes. Earls didn't have his best game for Ireland but he was not the worst performer on the pitch by a long stretch.

What do you mean Munster Meedja - I didn't know there is such a thing.

Hogg can shift it. BOD wouldn't have made it and the Scots know that too. And it wasn't a simple pass. I've looked at the video again. BOD is just too far away and there are too many Scottish defenders.

Sin é wrote: Schmidt is hated in Auckland

Back in May of last year there was talk of him going back to Auckland.............. there was talk of him turning it down (him turning them down, not them saying he'd never be let back)...there was also talk of him going back when he was at Clermont.

He still might bloody go back eventually Hated? You much oversell the word to again make a point, Sin. Naughty chap.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote: Schmidt is hated in Auckland

Back in May of last year there was talk of him going back to Auckland.............. there was talk of him turning it down (him turning them down, not them saying he'd never be let back)...there was also talk of him going back when he was at Clermont.

He still might bloody go back eventually Hated? You much oversell the word to again make a point, Sin. Naughty chap.

The kind of comment I read was that Schmidt would never be forgiven in Auckland (hate is a bit strong, but you know what I mean - I'm sure Leinsterfans don't hate Kidney either really) for the way he treated Carlos Spencer. It seems there was a bit of a personality clash as well. Anyway, after Spencer left, it all went downhill for the Blues and Schmidt gets the blame for that.

yeah, it's why they were in informal talks to get him back... The truth is history and history suggests all is forgiven.....

Sin é wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:There's no point in debating with Sin on this matter as no Munster can ever do any wrong. Best ignore him lads

You know it was a missed opportunity by the incredulous reaction of BOD. How often has he ever taken a player to task on the pitch in such a fashion? Still I would rather have Earls in the team to create those opportunities. He backed himself wrongly and he failed. At the end of the day its not that big of a deal. To say (as some have) that he should never play for Ireland again is lunacy. He'd be in my team again against France. On the wing naturally. Do we really need any further evidence he doesn't have the vision and ability to bring other players into the game at centre?

I can think of at least one occasion.

He backed himself, but I don't think its unreasonable to think that BOD doesn't have the legs that far out.

Thing is that Earls plays centre most of the time and normally he would have expected to have Zebo out there and that is probably why he instinctively went in that direction.

BOD wouldn't have scored anyway and with the amount of Scottish defenders around, he probably would have got turned over and you would all be berating Earls for not backing himself.

I'm pretty sure that we had this exact conversation 12 months ago, except it was Bowe that Earls didn't pass to rather than BOD......