Ireland Squad for Murrayfield- Kidneys Toughest Moments?

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29 man squad for the visit to Scotland.

Ireland Squad - Backs: Rob Kearney (Leinster), Robbie Henshaw (Connacht), Fergus McFadden (Leinster), Craig Gilroy (Ulster), Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster), Keith Earls (Munster), Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster), Darren Cave (Ulster), Luke Marshall (Ulster), Ronan O'Gara (Munster), Paddy Jackson (Ulster), Conor Murray (Munster), Eoin Reddan (Leinster)

Forwards: Rory Best (Ulster), Seán Cronin (Leinster), Tom Court (Ulster), David Kilcoyne (Munster), Mike Ross (Leinster), Declan Fitzpatrick (Ulster), Donnacha Ryan (Munster), Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster), Lewis Stevenson (Ulster), Devin Toner (Leinster), Peter O'Mahony (Munster), James Coughlan (Munster), Iain Henderson (Ulster), Seán O'Brien (Leinster), Chris Henry (Ulster), Jamie Heaslip (Leinster).

Some weeks are from hell.

For Declan Kidney, when he's done, he might just look back on this week as one of the toughest he's faced since taking over the Ireland job. The discussion, analysis and bickering will take place below but I want to frame it by saying I do not envy him one bit. Indeed, I feel sorry for him when I think of the calls he must make. Let us hope necessity is the mother of invention- and that the character of the 15 men on the pitch is enough to carry us over the line.

Ireland Abú. G'wan Ireland.

Do we put foreign players on a pedestal in Ireland. Yes we do

No point in putting BOD in there he is not competing v him because BOD will most likely be gone in the summer he is competing against Earls, cave and whoever else is playin centre for Ireland when he qualifies and is he better than them at centre yes a lot better. IF he wants to paly for Ireland that is good enough for me if the guy has no interest in palying for Ireland then thats different but if when the time comes he wants to play then we should use the resources available to us considering we are not a very big country, if someone is equal to him tand they are born here then by all means let them play ahead of him but if he is better than them why cut your hand off to spite your face

red_stag wrote:Do we put foreign players on a pedestal in Ireland. Yes we do

Not sure that's true, stag. Bent springs to mind... If you're thinking of NIQ players, Lalalalalalalala is hardly getting rave reviews at the moment.

Munchkin wrote:

red_stag wrote:Do we put foreign players on a pedestal in Ireland. Yes we do

Not sure that's true, stag. Bent springs to mind... If you're thinking of NIQ players, Lalalalalalalala is hardly getting rave reviews at the moment.

Okay so Stag made a little mistake in the print out...what he meant to say was 'South African' players......................................

Pete330v2 wrote:s he a better 15 than Kearney, reigning European player of the year and Lion. No he is not. Currently as good as if not better. I think better.
Is he a better 13 than BOD, three time Lion and multiple world player of the year nominee and test centurion. No he is not. Currently as good an option.

Based on what? A few matches at Ulster? He's never played an International match in his life.

GunsGerms wrote:
In any case by the time he qualifies for Ireland he will be 28/29. By then there may be an opening at 13 which is the position lets face it is the one he is most likely to suit. If he does declare for Ireland and I hope he doesn't then hopefully he would be a short term solution or used on the bench because he is not Irish.

In principle I'd agree with that - one caveat - if any of them want to take out Irish citizenship like Strauss said he wants to do (and eligible to do in 2 years), I'd be happy to have him as a first choice.

[quote="Munchkin"]

red_stag wrote:Do we put foreign players on a pedestal in Ireland. Yes we do

Completely agree. Ill never understand it. Some examples with Leinster:

Rocky Elsom was seen as irreplaceable by any Irish player. SOB comes along, European player of the year.
Isa Nacewa nails down fullback place. They said he cant be replaced by an Irish player. Kearney takes the 15 spot. European player of the year.
Philipe Contepomi, Leinster legend. Along comes Sexton wins three Heineken cups.

It will be the exact same with Drico, a young Irish guy will come along and make it his position. Maybe Henshaw, who knows.

There just seems to be an inbuilt lack of self confidence in Ireland that I find baffling at times.

Jarrod Payne is not the Messiah. He is a good player but certainly isn't the answer for Ireland.

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
In any case by the time he qualifies for Ireland he will be 28/29. By then there may be an opening at 13 which is the position lets face it is the one he is most likely to suit. If he does declare for Ireland and I hope he doesn't then hopefully he would be a short term solution or used on the bench because he is not Irish.

In principle I'd agree with that - one caveat - if any of them want to take out Irish citizenship like Strauss said he wants to do (and eligible to do in 2 years), I'd be happy to have him as a first choice.

I wouldn't and I would not be happy about Strauss being a first choice. Not for xenophobic reasons I just think it is too easy to import foreign players rather than get behind and support our own because we have plenty of good players.

With Strauss I think Cronin and Best should always be picked first with Strauss as back up.

geoff998rugby wrote:Bowe played 15 because Kidney asked for it.

I've provided a link to a direct quote from Anscombe saying that he wasn't asked. Is Anscombe telling porkies?

(for the record, Penney & Schmidt have had no problem telling about requests and to be honest its hardly a big deal of a request).

By the way, was it Kidney that asked for Paddy Wallace to start at 10 this weekend?

All it takes is two eyes to see what a good player Payne is. Is Kearney a better full back? Perhaps but not right now. Kearney is well off the pace at the moment and requires a massive game at the weekend if he has any ambition of playing for the Lions. If Hogg outplays him then Kearney will be in green this summer and not in red. Good for Ireland of course but not so good for Kearney himself. he was outstanding last season but since coming back from injury he has been seriously underwhelming. If Payne was Irish qualified now I would strongly suspect he would be starting on Sunday.

Its nothing to do with putting players on pedestals. Payne is a seriously good player. I don't think he has shown enough at 13 for serious consideration and unless he plays there for Ulster he can't really be considered. That said, would I rather have Earls, Cave, O'Malley or whoever? Not in a million years. But by the time he qualifies there might be an outstanding Irish born player like O'Hallorahan for arguments sake.

There's no point is us standing on principle saying 'no foreigners please, we're Irish' (despite the fact that my and some other Ulster player's passports would tell you we ain't either) when practically every other nation does. Sure, I hate the fact that Strauss has played and will play many more times for Ireland. But thems the rules. So unless the IRB stop New Zealand, Australia, England, France, Wales and Scotland to name but a few from doing the same, why disadvantage ourselves?

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
In any case by the time he qualifies for Ireland he will be 28/29. By then there may be an opening at 13 which is the position lets face it is the one he is most likely to suit. If he does declare for Ireland and I hope he doesn't then hopefully he would be a short term solution or used on the bench because he is not Irish.

In principle I'd agree with that - one caveat - if any of them want to take out Irish citizenship like Strauss said he wants to do (and eligible to do in 2 years), I'd be happy to have him as a first choice.

I wouldn't and I would not be happy about Strauss being a first choice. Not for xenophobic reasons I just think it is too easy to import foreign players rather than get behind and support our own because we have plenty of good players.

With Strauss I think Cronin and Best should always be picked first with Strauss as back up.

I think it would be a big deal though to take out citizenship of a country. It shows a huge commitment.

It's very simple for me when they qualify they should be asked once do you want to play for Ireland if their answer is not a straight yes then you don't tyr and persuade you don't ask again you just say fine and judge them then as a NIQ player, if he says yes straight away then welcome aboard if he is the best in his poisition we pick him, if he is not best don't pick him and if it is level pick the Irish born player.

I would agree with Sin too citizenship is a huge thing so if he is going to do that then he is welcome, in Strauss case he is a much better player than Cronin too.

Munchkin wrote:

red_stag wrote:Do we put foreign players on a pedestal in Ireland. Yes we do

Not sure that's true, stag. Bent springs to mind... If you're thinking of NIQ players, Lalalalalalalala is hardly getting rave reviews at the moment.

Ah, but when Laulala was with Cardiff he was the greatest thing since the sliced pan. He was going to put Keith Earls on the bench.

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

red_stag wrote:Do we put foreign players on a pedestal in Ireland. Yes we do

Not sure that's true, stag. Bent springs to mind... If you're thinking of NIQ players, Lalalalalalalala is hardly getting rave reviews at the moment.

Okay so Stag made a little mistake in the print out...what he meant to say was 'South African' players......................................

heh-heh. The Ulster saffers have been great for us, and I would say Ireland, as Ruan and Johann raise the bar. Maybe we do put them on a pedestal, but with good reason, and along with great home-grown talent such as Best, Bowe and Ferris.

Munchkin wrote:

red_stag wrote:Do we put foreign players on a pedestal in Ireland. Yes we do

Not sure that's true, stag. Bent springs to mind... If you're thinking of NIQ players, Lalalalalalalala is hardly getting rave reviews at the moment.

Exactly Bent does spring to mind. "Oh he is an unknown Kiwi tighthead" lets start him for national team.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Bowe played 15 because Kidney asked for it.

I've provided a link to a direct quote from Anscombe saying that he wasn't asked. Is Anscombe telling porkies?

(for the record, Penney & Schmidt have had no problem telling about requests and to be honest its hardly a big deal of a request).

By the way, was it Kidney that asked for Paddy Wallace to start at 10 this weekend?

Kidney did not ask for Wallace to play 10 this week.
He was responsible for a lot of the team selections last wekend though - got that from someone in the dressing room.
In most cases it coincided with Ulster selection thoughts but it did sway a few 50/50 choices
I'd lie to see that Bowe quote - my undestanding is Ulster had problems filling the 15 shirt because of injuries and were toying with Bowe or Andrew and Kidney, or one of his team, ask us to play Bowe

Thats lazy, over simplistic thinking on Bent. He was picked out of sheer desperation. If not Bent then who would have played in the autumn? Fitzpatrick who is overweight, unfit and constantly injured anyway or ..........hmmmm. A lack of options here. I don't think this is anything to do with putting players on pedestals but looking at current form. When Mafi was playing so well for Munster people were commenting that it was a shame he wasn't Irish qualified. It's nothing to do with putting him on a pedestal- he was just playing better than the alternatives. Nacewa, Elsom and Contepomi were outstanding in their positions and better than Irish born alternatives. No one can question the intangible benefit their class had on younger Irish players in the squad that helped make them better. Is anyone suggesting that Elsom is now better than SOB? No, but he certainly was at the time. Nacewa is just a classy player and with Kearney so badly out of form I wouldn't be surprised to see him facing some time on the bench.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Bowe played 15 because Kidney asked for it.

I've provided a link to a direct quote from Anscombe saying that he wasn't asked. Is Anscombe telling porkies?

(for the record, Penney & Schmidt have had no problem telling about requests and to be honest its hardly a big deal of a request).

By the way, was it Kidney that asked for Paddy Wallace to start at 10 this weekend?

Kidney did not ask for Wallace to play 10 this week.
He was responsible for a lot of the team selections last wekend though - got that from someone in the dressing room.
In most cases it coincided with Ulster selection thoughts but it did sway a few 50/50 choices
I'd lie to see that Bowe quote - my undestanding is Ulster had problems filling the 15 shirt because of injuries and were toying with Bowe or Andrew and Kidney, or one of his team, ask us to play Bowe

I already gave you a link above - here it is again:

Quote from Anscombe:

Ulster coach Mark Anscombe has revealed the decision to play Tommy Bowe at full-back against the Dragons at the weekend was not on the instruction of Declan Kidney.

By John Fallon
Anscombe said he had made the call without input from the Irish management as Ulster wanted to rest Jared Payne. It was believed that Kidney had requested the selection of Bowe at No.15 as he ponders who to select at full-back for the autumn internationals.

But the Ulster boss rubbished such claims. “Jared had played since the start of the season and we wanted to see how Tommy went in that position and we were pleased with the way it went,” said Anscombe after their 46-19 win which maintained their perfect start to season with eight straight victories
.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/anscombe-decision-to-play-bowe-at-full-back-not-kidneys-call-212283.html

And for the record, Zebo wasn't played at 15 for Munster either.

GunsGerms wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:s he a better 15 than Kearney, reigning European player of the year and Lion. No he is not. Currently as good as if not better. I think better.
Is he a better 13 than BOD, three time Lion and multiple world player of the year nominee and test centurion. No he is not. Currently as good an option.

Based on what? A few matches at Ulster? He's never played an International match in his life.

Based on watching him play.
He offers so much more in attack than Kearney and is so far ahead of all IQ 13's , except BOD, he is out of sight.

To say he shouldn't be selected because he has never played International rugby is bizarre.
On that basis you should never give a player a international debut because they have never played International rugby.
You trust your judgement and picked the best and in those position he is, or will be, the best
The only reason he did not play in NZ was because they are rather good and blokes like Conrad Smith are in the way - he would have been capped anywhere else in the world.
As for the age arguement - so what - if a player is the best pick him. He would still have 5/6 years possible service.
Look at the age Ryan and McCarthy were for instance.

I share the concern re residency qualification but as I say the answer is get the rules change not ignore your best available players.
Added to this fact it would be totally disingenious of the IRFU to blank them when they were signed as Projects with the understanding they would be considered for Ireland after 3 years.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Thats lazy, over simplistic thinking on Bent. He was picked out of sheer desperation. If not Bent then who would have played in the autumn? Fitzpatrick who is overweight, unfit and constantly injured anyway or ..........hmmmm. A lack of options here. I don't think this is anything to do with putting players on pedestals but looking at current form. When Mafi was playing so well for Munster people were commenting that it was a shame he wasn't Irish qualified. It's nothing to do with putting him on a pedestal- he was just playing better than the alternatives. Nacewa, Elsom and Contepomi were outstanding in their positions and better than Irish born alternatives. No one can question the intangible benefit their class had on younger Irish players in the squad that helped make them better. Is anyone suggesting that Elsom is now better than SOB? No, but he certainly was at the time. Nacewa is just a classy player and with Kearney so badly out of form I wouldn't be surprised to see him facing some time on the bench.

Isa won't be replacing Kearney anytime soon. He is totally out of form himself. I know Kearney has been poor for Ireland but he has been doing fine for Leinster since his return. I don't think it will be too long until we see Kearns back to full form again.

Sin you would make a lousy politican read between the lines

Sin é wrote: Quote from Anscombe:

Ulster coach Mark Anscombe has revealed the decision to play Tommy Bowe at full-back against the Dragons at the weekend was not on the instruction of Declan Kidney.

Not instruction - consulation perhaps as I suggested

Sin é wrote:
By John Fallon
Anscombe said he had made the call without input from the Irish management as Ulster wanted to rest Jared Payne. It was believed that Kidney had requested the selection of Bowe at No.15 as he ponders who to select at full-back for the autumn internationals.

That is the interpretation of a journalist - not a direct quote

Sin é wrote:
But the Ulster boss rubbished such claims. “Jared had played since the start of the season and we wanted to see how Tommy went in that position and we were pleased with the way it went,” said Anscombe after their 46-19 win which maintained their perfect start to season with eight straight victories

Who is 'we' the extended Irish managment/coaching set up perhaps

Kidneys made an observation to the Ulster coaching set up indication who they wanted playing - that player ended up playing.
It is possible to not lie without being totally frank with the truth - I think that is what we see here

red_stag wrote:Do we put foreign players on a pedestal in Ireland. Yes we do

No we put the good ones on pedestals because they are better than the players we have, that is why we sign them.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Thats lazy, over simplistic thinking on Bent. He was picked out of sheer desperation. If not Bent then who would have played in the autumn? Fitzpatrick who is overweight, unfit and constantly injured anyway or ..........hmmmm. A lack of options here. I don't think this is anything to do with putting players on pedestals but looking at current form. When Mafi was playing so well for Munster people were commenting that it was a shame he wasn't Irish qualified. It's nothing to do with putting him on a pedestal- he was just playing better than the alternatives. Nacewa, Elsom and Contepomi were outstanding in their positions and better than Irish born alternatives. No one can question the intangible benefit their class had on younger Irish players in the squad that helped make them better. Is anyone suggesting that Elsom is now better than SOB? No, but he certainly was at the time. Nacewa is just a classy player and with Kearney so badly out of form I wouldn't be surprised to see him facing some time on the bench.

Contempomi delayed the development of Sexton.
Elsom wasn't around long enough to block anyone (ideal situation really).
Nacewa is injured, so how he can be a better option than Kearney is questionable. I'd also say that this season his form hasn't been great - whether that is down to his (re) occurring injury could be the reason. I suspect that all is not right with Kearney just yet - he seems to be avoiding any kicking.

If Nacewa wasn't injured he would be a better option that Kearney, I was speaking in hypotheticals, in the same way that if Payne was Irish qualified I suspect he'd be playing on Sunday. But he isn't so he isn't. This is a huge match for Kearney. He's been lacklustre for Leinster and poor for Ireland so far. He's a classy operator and no doubt good form is right around the corner, but with Leinster out of Europe does he have the opportunities to press a Lions claim? I don't think he does.

geoff998rugby wrote:Sin you would make a lousy politican read between the lines

Sin é wrote: Quote from Anscombe:

Ulster coach Mark Anscombe has revealed the decision to play Tommy Bowe at full-back against the Dragons at the weekend was not on the instruction of Declan Kidney.

Not instruction - consulation perhaps as I suggested

Sin é wrote:
By John Fallon
Anscombe said he had made the call without input from the Irish management as Ulster wanted to rest Jared Payne. It was believed that Kidney had requested the selection of Bowe at No.15 as he ponders who to select at full-back for the autumn internationals.

That is the interpretation of a journalist - not a direct quote

Sin é wrote:
But the Ulster boss rubbished such claims. “Jared had played since the start of the season and we wanted to see how Tommy went in that position and we were pleased with the way it went,” said Anscombe after their 46-19 win which maintained their perfect start to season with eight straight victories

Who is 'we' the extended Irish managment/coaching set up perhaps

Kidneys made an observation to the Ulster coaching set up indication who they wanted playing - that player ended up playing.
It is possible to not lie without being totally frank with the truth - I think that is what we see here

Ah here now - they asked if Kidney had requested it - they said Anscombe rubbished it. The fact that Zebo wasn't tried might suggest that Kidney had his mind made up to put him there in the first place.

It seems sort of obvious to me that Ulster were very short of fullback cover at that stage and Payne needed a rest - and Bowe was coming back from injury and needed gametime.

I don't know what the big deal is about it anyway - Rob Penney has no problem saying when the Irish management makes requests to play players.

red_stag wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

red_stag wrote:Do we put foreign players on a pedestal in Ireland. Yes we do

Not sure that's true, stag. Bent springs to mind... If you're thinking of NIQ players, Lalalalalalalala is hardly getting rave reviews at the moment.

Exactly Bent does spring to mind. "Oh he is an unknown Kiwi tighthead" lets start him for national team.

Bent was a panic decision which turned out to be a disaster. I don't think any had him on a pedestal, stag. In fact I think the opposite is true. At least amongst the fans who were unhappy at the way his signing was managed.
If any had him on a pedestal I would doubt that would be true now. Players have to prove their worth, and this may be especially true for those brought in from other countries.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:If Nacewa wasn't injured he would be a better option that Kearney, I was speaking in hypotheticals, in the same way that if Payne was Irish qualified I suspect he'd be playing on Sunday. But he isn't so he isn't. This is a huge match for Kearney. He's been lacklustre for Leinster and poor for Ireland so far. He's a classy operator and no doubt good form is right around the corner, but with Leinster out of Europe does he have the opportunities to press a Lions claim? I don't think he does.

Kearney is coming back from a back op, so give him a chance as he has had very little gametime. He was written off similarly before the world cup and he came good again.

If he is so damn good, why isn't he back in New Zealand playing for a top team like the Crusader and in the All Blacks squad at least?

Sin é wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:If Nacewa wasn't injured he would be a better option that Kearney, I was speaking in hypotheticals, in the same way that if Payne was Irish qualified I suspect he'd be playing on Sunday. But he isn't so he isn't. This is a huge match for Kearney. He's been lacklustre for Leinster and poor for Ireland so far. He's a classy operator and no doubt good form is right around the corner, but with Leinster out of Europe does he have the opportunities to press a Lions claim? I don't think he does.

Kearney is coming back from a back op, so give him a chance as he has had very little gametime. He was written off similarly before the world cup and he came good again.

If he is so damn good, why isn't he back in New Zealand playing for a top team like the Crusader and in the All Blacks squad at least?

a) Because he has a contract with Leinster
b) He's capped for Fiji so can't play for Ireland let alone New Zealand.

Munchkin wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

red_stag wrote:Do we put foreign players on a pedestal in Ireland. Yes we do

Not sure that's true, stag. Bent springs to mind... If you're thinking of NIQ players, Lalalalalalalala is hardly getting rave reviews at the moment.

Exactly Bent does spring to mind. "Oh he is an unknown Kiwi tighthead" lets start him for national team.

Bent was a panic decision which turned out to be a disaster. I don't think any had him on a pedestal, stag. In fact I think the opposite is true. At least amongst the fans who were unhappy at the way his signing was managed.
If any had him on a pedestal I would doubt that would be true now. Players have to prove their worth, and this may be especially true for those brought in from other countries.

In what way was it a disaster?? He only played in the AIs and impressed everyone with his cameos. In fact they were so good, there were fans that wanted him to start ahead of Ross. We now have an extra TH in Ireland who under Feek will get better and better. Seems like a good bit of buisness to me...

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:If Nacewa wasn't injured he would be a better option that Kearney, I was speaking in hypotheticals, in the same way that if Payne was Irish qualified I suspect he'd be playing on Sunday. But he isn't so he isn't. This is a huge match for Kearney. He's been lacklustre for Leinster and poor for Ireland so far. He's a classy operator and no doubt good form is right around the corner, but with Leinster out of Europe does he have the opportunities to press a Lions claim? I don't think he does.

Kearney is coming back from a back op, so give him a chance as he has had very little gametime. He was written off similarly before the world cup and he came good again.

If he is so damn good, why isn't he back in New Zealand playing for a top team like the Crusader and in the All Blacks squad at least?

a) Because he has a contract with Leinster
b) He's capped for Fiji so can't play for Ireland let alone New Zealand.

I was referring to Payne, not Nacewa. Payne has been hopping around clubs in NZ for years. If he was such a great 13, surely he would have displaced Casey Laulala when they were both at the Crusaders. Its surprising that Payne left for the Blues, considering Laulala was going to Cardiff at the time (and he had been injured for most of that season anyway for the Crusaders).

If he is so damn good, why isn't he back in New Zealand playing for a top team like the Crusader and in the All Blacks squad at least?
[/quote]

The Ab management raised their concerns when it became clear they were going to lose Payne after his sublime final season with the Blues. They made it quite clear they didn't want him to leave NZ as they saw him as an option for the All Black squad. As it wasn't an entirely solid, guaranteed option Payne came to Ulster to go for route Irish. He may well return to play in a black shirt if offered but I hope to see him in green as his addition to the Irish squad would be a huge boost.

Sin - Payne was the standout player in an all star Auckland Blues backline when he left NZ playing at 13, he is clearly unbelievably talented at 15 as well where he has put in magnificent performances for Ulster. The guy is sheer class be it at 13 or 15.

I have no doubt that you are playing down how talented Payne is because you are one of the individuals who believe that Earls is destined to be the next Ireland 13 despite the fact that he is absolute toffee when playing 13 and has proved it every time he has played there.....

Tell me this, if Earls is such a classy 13 then why are Munster signings centres like there is no tomorrow including Lualala, De Villiers, Tipkoi and many more.

geoff998rugby wrote:Kidney did not ask for Wallace to play 10 this week.
He was responsible for a lot of the team selections last wekend though - got that from someone in the dressing room.
In most cases it coincided with Ulster selection thoughts but it did sway a few 50/50 choices

Yes I'd heard that as well. DK is responsible for one of Ulster's back selections tonight though and yes - it's not Paddy Wallace.

[/quote]In what way was it a disaster?? He only played in the AIs and impressed everyone with his cameos. In fact they were so good, there were fans that wanted him to start ahead of Ross. We now have an extra TH in Ireland who under Feek will get better and better. Seems like a good bit of buisness to me...[/quote]

I don't believe everyone was impressed with his cameos. He was ok, he helped steady things a bit v South Africa, but not great. Seem to remember the Leinster scrum being demolished by Ulster. Court was particularly pleased with that
A disaster in a PR sense I guess. A guy having never played in Ireland is flown in, and in the same week is playing for them versus SA. There were a few unhappy about that including Keith Wood. Disaster is a bit strong fair enough.
What I have been arguing is that because a player hails from SA, Australia or NewZealand that does not mean they are put on a pedestal by all simply by virtue of their nationality. I don't believe Bent has been put on a pedestal, he has his critics, and he has a way to go before the masses will be speaking of him in glowing terms.
He was being developed as a TH after converting from LH before he came to Ireland, and I hope he continues to do well. Ireland really need him to due to scarce options.

GunsGerms wrote:Jarrod Payne is not the Messiah. He is a good player but certainly isn't the answer for Ireland.

Thing is, in two years time, he isn't a foreign player any more. So I don't even understand where the foreign player thing comes into it.

It seems to be based on this idealistic view of nationality which isn't in line with the IRB regulations. I personally don't care about that. There are plenty of Irish players who don't buy into the idea of the Ireland team. They are Ulstermen/Munstermen/Leinstermen. Plenty of fans who are the same. There are guys who come from outside who will have a more professional view of things. I couldn't care less about the whole words of the national anthem thing anymore.

Notch wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Jarrod Payne is not the Messiah. He is a good player but certainly isn't the answer for Ireland.

Thing is, in two years time, he isn't a foreign player any more. So I don't even understand where the foreign player thing comes into it.

It seems to be based on this idealistic view of nationality which isn't in line with the IRB regulations. I personally don't care about that. There are plenty of Irish players who don't buy into the idea of the Ireland team. They are Ulstermen/Munstermen/Leinstermen. Plenty of fans who are the same. There are guys who come from outside who will have a more professional view of things. I couldn't care less about the whole words of the national anthem thing anymore.

He is foreign now. We should be focusing on developing home grown talent now. Why don't we just go to New Zealand and offer the whole baby blacks three year contracts in the hope they declare for Ireland in three years time?

Maybe you already see the majority of Ireland players as foreign anyway as they are mostly from ROI? I don't know but I consider anyone native to this island as native to our team and the likes of Strauss and co. as contingency plans only because the focus should always be developing our own players because we have proven time and time again that they are out there.

Otherwise International rugby will just become another form of club rugby which for me will never be as good because doesn't have the same sense of pride which is a big part of the game for me.

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Jarrod Payne is not the Messiah. He is a good player but certainly isn't the answer for Ireland.

Thing is, in two years time, he isn't a foreign player any more. So I don't even understand where the foreign player thing comes into it.

It seems to be based on this idealistic view of nationality which isn't in line with the IRB regulations. I personally don't care about that. There are plenty of Irish players who don't buy into the idea of the Ireland team. They are Ulstermen/Munstermen/Leinstermen. Plenty of fans who are the same. There are guys who come from outside who will have a more professional view of things. I couldn't care less about the whole words of the national anthem thing anymore.

He is foreign now. We should be focusing on developing home grown talent now. Why don't we just go to New Zealand and offer the whole baby blacks three year contracts in the hope they declare for Ireland in three years time?

Maybe you already see the majority of Ireland players as foreign anyway as they are mostly from ROI? I don't know but I consider anyone native to this island as native to our team and the likes of Strauss and co. as contingency plans only because the focus should always be developing our own players because we have proven time and time again that they are out there.

Otherwise International rugby will just become another form of club rugby which for me will never be as good because doesn't have the same sense of pride which is a big part of the game for me.

I hope you are not suggesting what it sounds like you are suggesting there mate, Notch is very much an Ireland supporter ho spends a lot of hard earned money to head to Dublin everytime they play to watch. If you are suggesting what I think you are grow up and stop being an idiot

GunsGerms wrote:Maybe you already see the majority of Ireland players as foreign anyway as they are mostly from ROI?

No. That is not at all fair and, in honesty, does not represent my views at all.

But I'm very aware that some see me as being less Irish, even though I am actually Irish- in nationality terms, in terms of the passport I carry. Of course you don't need to be Irish to play for Ireland. Being British and from NI is sufficient even before nationality laws come into it- it just so happens I personally have dual nationality.

Whilst you're making a big generalisation about me, there's a kernel of truth in what you say. We call this our national team but it doesn't just represent a nation. It represents the geographical entity of Ireland regardless of whether it remains divided or becomes united, and I believe anyone who chooses to settle on this island long term and make it their home should be given the right to represent it regardless of what it says on their passport. They are making a commitment to be part of the rugby community and wider community in Ireland. In that light, I have little problem with them pulling on the green jersey.

3 years isn't a very long time. I wish the requirement was longer and that would somewhat deter economic recruitment. But if the rules are the rules and a player is eligible, I don't believe it's fair to discriminate against him on the basis of nationality. I just want Ireland to be as strong as possible. And parochialism is a pox on that, whether it comes from North or South.

neilthom7 wrote:I hope you are not suggesting what it sounds like you are suggesting there mate, Notch is very much an Ireland supporter ho spends a lot of hard earned money to head to Dublin everytime they play to watch. If you are suggesting what I think you are grow up and stop being an idiot

Thats not true, I don't go to every game!

I've been to a good few games but only a few tests a year. Less now, two this season. Next season I don't know. There's a sense of diminishing returns in terms of atmosphere and craic. Don't worry about rowing in, there's no battle here to be fought

neilthom7 wrote:

I hope you are not suggesting what it sounds like you are suggesting there mate, Notch is very much an Ireland supporter ho spends a lot of hard earned money to head to Dublin everytime they play to watch. If you are suggesting what I think you are grow up and stop being an idiot

Firstly you should let him answer for himself.

Secondly it was a genuine question and not a statement. Is it inconceivable that some NI Ireland supporters don't consider themselves Irish?

Thirdly if you feel the need to personally insult posters then it usually means you don't have a lot to offer the debate.

Notch wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Maybe you already see the majority of Ireland players as foreign anyway as they are mostly from ROI?

No. That is not at all fair and, in honesty, does not represent my views at all.

But I'm very aware that some see me as being less Irish, even though I am actually Irish- in nationality terms, in terms of the passport I carry. Of course you don't need to be Irish to play for Ireland. Being British and from NI is sufficient even before nationality laws come into it- it just so happens I personally have dual nationality.

Whilst you're making a big generalisation about me, there's a kernel of truth in what you say. We call this our national team but it doesn't just represent a nation. It represents the geographical entity of Ireland regardless of whether it remains divided or becomes united, and I believe anyone who chooses to settle on this island long term and make it their home should be given the right to represent it regardless of what it says on their passport. They are making a commitment to be part of the rugby community and wider community in Ireland. In that light, I have little problem with them pulling on the green jersey.

3 years isn't a very long time. I wish the requirement was longer and that would somewhat deter economic recruitment. But if the rules are the rules and a player is eligible, I don't believe it's fair to discriminate against him on the basis of nationality. I just want Ireland to be as strong as possible. And parochialism is a pox on that, whether it comes from North or South.

I wasn't making generalisations I was asking a genuine question. I don't see you as anything other than an fan of the same team as me. The only reason I asked was because you don't seem to mind an influx of foreign players and its not inconceivable that some NI posters would see the Irish team as a foreign team. It isn't really a debate I really want to get into anyway as I'm proud of the arrangement that exists in Irish rugby and the bonds that it creates. I certainly don't think of Ulstermen as faux Irish supporters if that's how it came across.

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Maybe you already see the majority of Ireland players as foreign anyway as they are mostly from ROI?

No. That is not at all fair and, in honesty, does not represent my views at all.

But I'm very aware that some see me as being less Irish, even though I am actually Irish- in nationality terms, in terms of the passport I carry. Of course you don't need to be Irish to play for Ireland. Being British and from NI is sufficient even before nationality laws come into it- it just so happens I personally have dual nationality.

Whilst you're making a big generalisation about me, there's a kernel of truth in what you say. We call this our national team but it doesn't just represent a nation. It represents the geographical entity of Ireland regardless of whether it remains divided or becomes united, and I believe anyone who chooses to settle on this island long term and make it their home should be given the right to represent it regardless of what it says on their passport. They are making a commitment to be part of the rugby community and wider community in Ireland. In that light, I have little problem with them pulling on the green jersey.

3 years isn't a very long time. I wish the requirement was longer and that would somewhat deter economic recruitment. But if the rules are the rules and a player is eligible, I don't believe it's fair to discriminate against him on the basis of nationality. I just want Ireland to be as strong as possible. And parochialism is a pox on that, whether it comes from North or South.

I wasn't making generalisations I was asking a genuine question. I don't see you as anything other than an fan of the same team as me. The only reason I asked was because you don't seem to mind an influx of foreign players and its not inconceivable that some NI posters would see the Irish team as a foreign team. It isn't really a debate I really want to get into anyway as I'm proud of the arrangement that exists in Irish rugby and the bonds that it creates. I certainly don't think of Ulstermen as faux Irish supporters if that's how it came across.

No worries mate. As it happens, that viewpoint isn't really something that exists. There are the same problems with provincialism here as anywhere else but actually there is no view amongst rugby fans of the Ireland team being anything else than what we've always thought about it- our team. It's still something that brings people together.

There may be a preference for Ulster players to get their head in the national side. But actually this isn't any worse than Munster or Leinster. It doesn't have a political dimension that I can see. The Davy Tweeds of this world are fewer and farther between than you'd think.

Guns I have plenty to offer to the debate never worry about that and I apologise for the insult I felt you were trying to characterise Ulster fans as guys who don't want there to be an Irish team. I see now that is not the case so I apologise and I assure you there is very few people who think that way in rugby up here, thankfully we have generally missed out on the bigots. As Notch says there is the same provincial influences as in leinster and Munster but nothing more off course there is always one or 2.

GunsGerms wrote:
Maybe you already see the majority of Ireland players as foreign anyway as they are mostly from ROI?

That's a pretty ridiculous statement t be making. Also to have a problem with nationalised players is just as daft considering the talent pool we have to choose from which is pretty shallow. Dazzling talents from foreign shores should be very much welcomed. We hardly have the widest and deepest pool of talent.

P.S. I know nobody who would ever see ROI nationals to be foreign

Pete330v2 wrote:GunsGerms wrote:
Maybe you already see the majority of Ireland players as foreign anyway as they are mostly from ROI?

That's a pretty ridiculous statement t be making. Also to have a problem with nationalised players is just as daft considering the talent pool we have to choose from which is pretty shallow. Dazzling talents from foreign shores should be very much welcomed. We hardly have the widest and deepest pool of talent.

P.S. I know nobody who would ever see ROI nationals to be foreign

Again it was not a statement it was a question. A question I didn't know the answer to so why not ask? I wouldn't judge anyone anyway whatever their response it just serves to understand their POV better.

McIlroy for example in golf even though he has represented Ireland has said he feels more British and would rather represent Britain. I was curious as to whether some rugby fans might feel that way too. Curiosity has well and truly killed this cat and will avoid the subject from now on.

I don't think we have a shallow pool of talent though that's my point. I don't think we need imports.

GunsGerms wrote:
Maybe you already see the majority of Ireland players as foreign anyway as they are mostly from ROI?

Hadn't occurred to me until you mentioned it. Maybe some people just think the benefits of picking quality players like Payne, Strauss etc., if they are committed to the cause, outweigh any negatives, if it means the team is successful.

GunsGerms wrote:McIlroy for example in golf even though he has represented Ireland has said he feels more British and would rather represent Britain. I was curious as to whether some rugby fans might feel that way too. Curiosity has well and truly killed this cat and will avoid the subject from now on.

I don't think we have a shallow pool of talent though that's my point. I don't think we need imports.

McIlroy has distanced himself from that position because he upset the Irish media so much.

I don't know any Ireland rugby fans based in NI who consider ROI players to be foreign players, because that would be frankly ridiculous. The far more obvious question is whether ROI rugby fans consider "British" players from NI to be "foreign"?

The Test qualification rules are clear and it is totally disingenuous to decry players who have committed three years of their professional careers to become Ireland qualified as somehow less desirable to someone who has never been in the country but just happens to have the minimum quantity of approved DNA. Should the IRB subject every player to genetic testing to see if they're made of the right stuff?

Maybe it shouldn't be scientific but cultural - perhaps every player should be tested on Yeats and Joyce? I'd say Strauss would stand a much better chance than Bent on that one.

Maybe we should test them on their ability to lose to France first lol sorry that wasn't a serious contribution

I dunno Neil, The Eirian race should have clear measurable distinct qualities and losing to France is right up there. The only problem is that we all would have to accept that BOD would have been thrown out after his first game as not being Oirish enough. Still there would no doubt have been plenty of other countries who would have taken him so at least he still could have had a career and probably even won a World Cup or two.

But sure it's far better to win nothing and know you're "pure" Irish than have a chance of a devalued win by recruiting a few plastic paddies.