Fullback choices for the Lions tour to Australia

by maestegmafia Mon 1 Apr 2013 - 20:37

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 10:38

It's nice to see passion for the discussion, provided it doesn't get bitter.

I suppose we should all be greatful to have the lions blessed with such talent.

It will certainly be one of the most talented squads I can remember and it will likely have contributions from all the nations.

by Guest Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 10:42

I wonder if the Lions squad selection meetings will be like this! Gatland arguing with Rowntree about players, questioning each others knowledge of the game, their parentage, generally bickering, etc!

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 10:45

I reckon for some of the high competition places it will be. How do you decide the backrow for example, or even this thread has proved how tight the fullback position could be 2 votes between Hogg and Halfpenny and the backrow competition is even closer, from memory the 6 berth is pretty much a 3 way tie between Robshaw, Brown and SOB.

by **Biltong** Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 10:47

I think it will all boil down to tactics and combinations, and the only guy that will know is Gatland

by Guest Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 10:47

How can people not include Lydiate - do they know nothing about the game! I question their parentage! Disgraceful! thumbsup

by **George Carlin** Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 10:48

Griff wrote:I wonder if the Lions squad selection meetings will be like this! Gatland arguing with Rowntree about players, questioning each others knowledge of the game, their parentage, generally bickering, etc!

I hope so, because it's bloody important. I'm not watching another losing test series. boxing

by munkian Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 10:57

I don't want Lydiate rushed back and re-injured. Let him go on the Summer tour

by Guest Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 11:00

It was a joke Munkian! I'm with you on that one.

by **RDW** Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 11:06

Changing topic, Kearny hasn't been discussed very much lately (he may have featured in the previous 6 pages that I've not read) - what are people's thoughts on him? Will Gatland take 3 fullbacks?

I think he's fantastic player but just hasn't been delivering recently - I think 1/2P and Hogg are ahead in the pecking order but he'd be a great asset to the Lions.

I'm not sure I'd want to take 3 specialist fullbacks though.

by Guest Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 11:09

Was he injured until recently RDW? Until fairly recently he was probably my no.1. If they're taking 3 then he'd be in there for me with Hogg and 1/2p. He was immense on the last tour, but obviously that's a long time ago. Would have no qualms about him going.

by **Biltong** Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 11:11

RDW_Scotland wrote:Changing topic, Kearny hasn't been discussed very much lately (he may have featured in the previous 6 pages that I've not read) - what are people's thoughts on him? Will Gatland take 3 fullbacks?

I think he's fantastic player but just hasn't been delivering recently - I think 1/2P and Hogg are ahead in the pecking order but he'd be a great asset to the Lions.

I'm not sure I'd want to take 3 specialist fullbacks though.

He was my first choice, but I have been categorically told I am wrong for a number of reasons.

Out of form sicne his come back, not enoough game time, etc.

by **George Carlin** Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 11:13

RDW - McGeechan's 2009 touring party had 37 players and there were only two full backs amongst them (Byrne and Kearney), so reasonably safe to assume there will be only 2 slots here.

by **RDW** Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 11:18

Reckon that’ll beam that for the 4th winger spot a winger that is also comfortable at 15 might get the nod over someone else – i.e. Maitland over Visser say? Not that I want to get into a debate about winger choices but you get my general point…

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 11:24

George Carlin wrote:RDW - McGeechan's 2009 touring party had 37 players and there were only two full backs amongst them (Byrne and Kearney), so reasonably safe to assume there will be only 2 slots here.

Indeed. Though the modern trend of playing one winger who's capable of playing fullback may see 3 fullbacks go. That said, the Likes of Maitland and Bowe are quite capable of covering FB too, so 2 fullbacks in 7-man back-3 group would work.

by theslosty Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 11:36

Biltong wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Changing topic, Kearny hasn't been discussed very much lately (he may have featured in the previous 6 pages that I've not read) - what are people's thoughts on him? Will Gatland take 3 fullbacks?

I think he's fantastic player but just hasn't been delivering recently - I think 1/2P and Hogg are ahead in the pecking order but he'd be a great asset to the Lions.

I'm not sure I'd want to take 3 specialist fullbacks though.
He was my first choice, but I have been categorically told I am wrong for a number of reasons.

Out of form sicne his come back, not enoough game time, etc.

In the space of about 10 months he has gone from challenging Israel Dagg as the world's best FB to 3rd or 4th choice for the Lions.
I do hope class is permanent but he needs to rediscover his 2012 form quickly, and even then he won't get a chance to impress in the Heineken Cup.

The criticisms labelled at him being a one trick pony, catching and kicking, were previously completely unjustified, but right now are probably legitimate as he has lost all confidence and consequently has forgotten how to counter-attack.

by kingjohn7 Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 13:39

flyhalffactory wrote:
CurlyOsp wrote:Gatland is going to use the same game plan he's put in place for Wales. Whoever is fullback will be playing a primarily defensive game.

Bearing this in mind, Halfpenny is the logical choice. Yes, his defence is all that anyone is banging on about but it matters, players like Ioane, Beale and Cummins are some of the best runners in the world. Hogg having made 9 and missed 7 would be a big risk.

For now, I would personally have Hogg on the bench. We are not used to playing running rugby for 80 minutes like the Auzzies, it's their game, we wont beat them at it. Wear them down, then bring Hogg on with 25/30 minutes to go and let him do what he does best, run riots.

By the next Lions tour, Hogg is likely to be something special, but for all of his talent right now he is still raw and inexperienced. Could Scottish fans justify Launchberry starting over Gray? The former being in arguably better form this season, but far less experienced.

He will not for the primary reason that Wales lost all three matches when they used a defensive plan, hence your rationale goes out of the window

Then the logical choice is attack ergo Gatland will choose Hogg

And by the way he is something special now as the 6Ns comparative stats between Halfpenny v Hogg reveals

If Launchberry is on form and is playing better then you select him of course you do

Sorry FHF mate, dont think you been watching Gatland much. For all the good things he does, changing of the gameplan is not one of them. I hope your right but doubt it.

by bsando Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 15:14

Yeah my opinion is same as Kiwidevils, 2 full backs and a winger/s who can cover fullback if need be.

Australia have James O'Connor who can play 10, 12, 14 and 15

I think Lions need a similar player/players to tour. Sean Maitland can cover fullback, can any other nations players cover fullback as well? I don't know enough about likes of Zebo, Ashton and other Irish wingers.

However, here's another perspective...

What if Gatland decides to pick one young fullback and a more experienced one? Would we perhaps just see Kearney and Halfpenny touring and no Hogg at all? This decision would not surprise me to be honest, despite how devastating it would be for us Scottish fans. It would be a fairly conservative decision in my opinion, but by no means a silly one.

by theslosty Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 15:25

bsando wrote:Yeah my opinion is same as Kiwidevils, 2 full backs and a winger/s who can cover fullback if need be.

Australia have James O'Connor who can play 10, 12, 14 and 15

I think Lions need a similar player/players to tour. Sean Maitland can cover fullback, can any other nations players cover fullback as well? I don't know enough about likes of Zebo, Ashton and other Irish wingers.

However, here's another perspective...

What if Gatland decides to pick one young fullback and a more experienced one? Would we perhaps just see Kearney and Halfpenny touring and no Hogg at all? This decision would not surprise me to be honest, despite how devastating it would be for us Scottish fans. It would be a fairly conservative decision in my opinion, but by no means a silly one.

Zebo earned his first caps for Ireland at FB, filling in for injured Kearney. He was pretty impressive, solid under the high ball and a good left boot to add to his undoubted attacking qualities. Even more impressive considering his first two caps were against SA and Argentina, in fact I think he was probably Ireland's best player during the AIs.

by bsando Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 15:59

Cheers Slosty! That's pretty impressive. I would love to see Zebo tour, I think he would be deadly on the hard pitches in Aus. He definitely made an impression on me during Autumn internationals, shame he got injured in 6N really because North didn't look nearly half as good as he did last year and Visser struggled to get ball or go looking for it. I reckon Zebo may have been a shoe in for the left wing, now I'm not so sure.

11. Zebo 14. Maitland 15. Hogg

That would be my back three, sheer pace and skills! thumbsup

by **RDW** Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 16:04

When is Zebo back form injury?

by bsando Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 16:09

I think he was out for 10 weeks, so maybe in 2 weeks time? Probably going to be too late for him now I think of it... such a shame.

by bsando Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 16:11

http://www.newstalk.ie/Simon-Zebo-on-Off-the-Ball:-Returning-for-the-Heineken-Cup-and-dreaming-of-The-Lions

He's confident he can get back earlier it seems

by **RDW** Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 16:12

On the basis that there will be 4 wingers and 2 fullbacks I think he would add a good balance to the already powerful wingers likely to go - North, Cuthbert, Zebo and Visser/Maitland/Brown would be a good balance.

by theslosty Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 16:13

I asked the same question on another thread a couple of days ago. About a week ago he hinted about returning for the Quins game but I assume by the lack of news that he will not be back this weekend.

If I'm honest Zebo's performance against Wales was ridiculously overhyped for obvious reasons but he has been absolutely superb this season in a dull Munster team. But for that injury I'm sure he would have been firmly in contention for a Lions test spot, but shoo-in, thumbsup

I'm not so sure.

I would go for North, Maitland and Halfpenny right now, the latter's goalkicking cannot be underestimated.

by theslosty Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 16:17

This is the latest:

http://www.thescore.ie/heineken-cup-munster-harlequins-zebo-howlett-856438-Apr2013/

by bsando Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 16:24

yeah I agree with you on balance RDW, I'd hate to just see a bunch of physical wingers, I prefer wingers with some zip and good ball skills rather than physicality.

I think the BBC were guilty of overhyping several players this year.

North, Maitland and HP would be a nice combo, very good balance. I know halfpenny is a good kicker but so are Sexton, Farrell and Laidlaw which is why I'd have Hogg at fullback.

by flyhalffactory Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 17:51

kingjohn7 wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
CurlyOsp wrote:Gatland is going to use the same game plan he's put in place for Wales. Whoever is fullback will be playing a primarily defensive game.

Bearing this in mind, Halfpenny is the logical choice. Yes, his defence is all that anyone is banging on about but it matters, players like Ioane, Beale and Cummins are some of the best runners in the world. Hogg having made 9 and missed 7 would be a big risk.

For now, I would personally have Hogg on the bench. We are not used to playing running rugby for 80 minutes like the Auzzies, it's their game, we wont beat them at it. Wear them down, then bring Hogg on with 25/30 minutes to go and let him do what he does best, run riots.

By the next Lions tour, Hogg is likely to be something special, but for all of his talent right now he is still raw and inexperienced. Could Scottish fans justify Launchberry starting over Gray? The former being in arguably better form this season, but far less experienced.

He will not for the primary reason that Wales lost all three matches when they used a defensive plan, hence your rationale goes out of the window

Then the logical choice is attack ergo Gatland will choose Hogg

And by the way he is something special now as the 6Ns comparative stats between Halfpenny v Hogg reveals

If Launchberry is on form and is playing better then you select him of course you do

Sorry FHF mate, dont think you been watching Gatland much. For all the good things he does, changing of the gameplan is not one of them. I hope your right but doubt it.

Hey there KingJohn

I believe Gatland/Edwards relationship and dynamics with the WRU (who have often come across a professional numpties) is totally different to the Lions hierarchy:
Oxbridge Gerald Davies,
CEO and Leinster old boy the very articulate and very experienced John Deehan,
Andy Irvine Edinburgh Uni and wealth of experience

All with many decades of experience with the Lions playing and managing. Gatland is totally dominant with the WRU who are clearly in awe of him, I would believe he will have nothing like that aura with the people above. I believe there will be mutual respect but the strategy will come from that trio, and how to implement it will be driven by the coaches

By not selecting Shaun Edwards as his defence coach and picking Farrell Snr Gatland has given a clear message that the approach will be more attack orientated (on the hard Oz pitches) than he previously was with Wales

I might be totally off the wall though

by aucklandlaurie Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 19:24

bsando wrote:Yeah my opinion is same as Kiwidevils, 2 full backs and a winger/s who can cover fullback if need be.

Australia have James O'Connor who can play 10, 12, 14 and 15I think Lions need a similar player/players to tour. Sean Maitland can cover fullback, can any other nations players cover fullback as well? I don't know enough about likes of Zebo, Ashton and other Irish wingers.

However, here's another perspective...

What if Gatland decides to pick one young fullback and a more experienced one? Would we perhaps just see Kearney and Halfpenny touring and no Hogg at all? This decision would not surprise me to be honest, despite how devastating it would be for us Scottish fans. It would be a fairly conservative decision in my opinion, but by no means a silly one.

Hes not bad at 13 either.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 19:26

Aus approach backs in a different way to us though, they have so many utility backs. In Europe, utility back = Int Career doomed and a few matches off the bench, we focus on specialisation. In Australia, it means you are JOC. or AAC. or Beale. or Barnes etc.

by flyhalffactory Thu 4 Apr 2013 - 19:39

aucklandlaurie wrote:
bsando wrote:Yeah my opinion is same as Kiwidevils, 2 full backs and a winger/s who can cover fullback if need be.

Australia have James O'Connor who can play 10, 12, 14 and 15I think Lions need a similar player/players to tour. Sean Maitland can cover fullback, can any other nations players cover fullback as well? I don't know enough about likes of Zebo, Ashton and other Irish wingers.

However, here's another perspective...

What if Gatland decides to pick one young fullback and a more experienced one? Would we perhaps just see Kearney and Halfpenny touring and no Hogg at all? This decision would not surprise me to be honest, despite how devastating it would be for us Scottish fans. It would be a fairly conservative decision in my opinion, but by no means a silly one.

Stuart Hogg 15, 14, 11
Maitland 15, 14, 11
Matty Scott 13, 12, 10 (was a very very good 10 and was undecided to play 10 or 12 for us (Edinburgh)
Greg Laidlaw 10, 9
Nathan Hines 6, 5, 4
Jamie Roberts 15, 14, 11, 13, 12
Spikey Phillips 9 and Centre
Scott Williams 15, 13, 12, 10
Ryan Jones, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4
Warburton 8, 7, 6
James Tiberius Hook 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, Teaboy, Lemon carrier, Sport Guru, Agent, Capt of the Starship Enterprise, Eye Candy to the YMCA (Oh NO that's Byrne!) and Agony Aunt to the troops

Hes not bad at 13 either.

by dragonbreath Fri 5 Apr 2013 - 9:08

bsando wrote:yeah I agree with you on balance RDW, I'd hate to just see a bunch of physical wingers, I prefer wingers with some zip and good ball skills rather than physicality.

I think the BBC were guilty of overhyping several players this year.

North, Maitland and HP would be a nice combo, very good balance. I know halfpenny is a good kicker but so are Sexton, Farrell and Laidlaw which is why I'd have Hogg at fullback.

I don't see how you can say that Cuthbert has no zip. His finishing is first rate he can go through and around players a pretty useful combination. Maitland looks a good player, but what has he really shown us other than he looks a intelligent all round footballer, which of course not a bad thing. I am still despite, recent precedent, against SH players touring with the Lions (this is not a dig at England by the way). Where is that passionate Englishman Ricky Fluety now? Like many predicted at the time of his selection long gone er oh yeh back to NZ Run

he was HOME SICK.

We have enough real Lion candidates for the wing berth.

Of topic I supose but felt the need to respond

by RuggerRadge2611 Fri 5 Apr 2013 - 10:26

On Maitland,

He has a Scottish dad who woke him up every morning in NZ to watch the 6N, in all the interviews he has given he has mentioned his disapointment at not playing for the All Blacks but is absolutely delighted at being able to play for Scotland.

Having mixed parentage I can relate to this feeling.

by RubyGuby Fri 5 Apr 2013 - 10:31

Maitland's distribution is crxp Run

by tigertattie Fri 5 Apr 2013 - 10:36

RubyGuby wrote:Maitland's distribution is crxp

lol

poor attempt at a wum that one sir!

Just in case you are not wumming and are in fact being serious, check the italy game for the number of tries that maitland set up!

by dragonbreath Fri 5 Apr 2013 - 13:50

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:On Maitland,

He has a Scottish dad who woke him up every morning in NZ to watch the 6N, in all the interviews he has given he has mentioned his disapointment at not playing for the All Blacks but is absolutely delighted at being able to play for Scotland.

Having mixed parentage I can relate to this feeling.

I stand corrected. Welcome aboard

by tigger17 Fri 5 Apr 2013 - 20:18

Hi All, longtime reader first time poster. I voted for Halfpenny, Dont see how there can be any debate here. We have 3 world class wingers in Bowe, North and Cuthbert all of whom have scored against Australia. We also have the best fullback in the northern hemisphere in Halfpenny and we are debating moving him to accomondate Hogg? I dont think so. Gatland will start Halfpenny at fullback for the tests.

by bsando Fri 5 Apr 2013 - 20:33

dragonbreath wrote:
bsando wrote:yeah I agree with you on balance RDW, I'd hate to just see a bunch of physical wingers, I prefer wingers with some zip and good ball skills rather than physicality.

I think the BBC were guilty of overhyping several players this year.

North, Maitland and HP would be a nice combo, very good balance. I know halfpenny is a good kicker but so are Sexton, Farrell and Laidlaw which is why I'd have Hogg at fullback.

I don't see how you can say that Cuthbert has no zip. His finishing is first rate he can go through and around players a pretty useful combination. Maitland looks a good player, but what has he really shown us other than he looks a intelligent all round footballer, which of course not a bad thing. I am still despite, recent precedent, against SH players touring with the Lions (this is not a dig at England by the way). Where is that passionate Englishman Ricky Fluety now? Like many predicted at the time of his selection long gone er oh yeh back to NZ he was HOME SICK.

We have enough real Lion candidates for the wing berth.

Of topic I supose but felt the need to respond

All I said was I prefer wingers with zip rather than physicality, didn't even mention Cuthbert Headscratch

I think Cuthbert with ball in hand/momentum is deadly, especially if your 9 or 10 is the only defender there to stop him, or you don't get your tackle right.. he'll score every time.

I would just hate to see the Lions focussing on having a big physical team when perhaps a more well balanced team would work better.

In the case of Maitland, he displayed great footballing skills, best defence from any winger in the tournament and some excellent creativity and finishing. He struggled with the whole coming off the wing and looking for work part of NH rugby, but he's admitted that in the papers and has been trying to rectify that part of his game.

by bsando Fri 5 Apr 2013 - 20:41

tigger17 wrote:Hi All, longtime reader first time poster. I voted for Halfpenny, Dont see how there can be any debate here. We have 3 world class wingers in Bowe, North and Cuthbert all of whom have scored against Australia. We also have the best fullback in the northern hemisphere in Halfpenny and we are debating moving him to accomondate Hogg? I dont think so. Gatland will start Halfpenny at fullback for the tests.

Welcome!

I know its hard to comprehend taking 1/2p away from the 15 spot, I'm a big fan of him too and if he is selected as fullback every test it would be great. But the main argument amongst most posters on here is the attacking capabilities Hogg possesses which are quite extraordinary at times. And he can basically do everything that HP can do as well (apart from the accurate kicking I suppose) so why not have Hogg at 15? I'm expecting both players to tour and think there battle for 15 jersey will reallly make the pre test games vs Barbarians, Force etc that little more exciting to watch.

by Taylorman Fri 5 Apr 2013 - 21:02

bsando wrote:
tigger17 wrote:Hi All, longtime reader first time poster. I voted for Halfpenny, Dont see how there can be any debate here. We have 3 world class wingers in Bowe, North and Cuthbert all of whom have scored against Australia. We also have the best fullback in the northern hemisphere in Halfpenny and we are debating moving him to accomondate Hogg? I dont think so. Gatland will start Halfpenny at fullback for the tests.

Welcome!

I know its hard to comprehend taking 1/2p away from the 15 spot, I'm a big fan of him too and if he is selected as fullback every test it would be great. But the main argument amongst most posters on here is the attacking capabilities Hogg possesses which are quite extraordinary at times. And he can basically do everything that HP can do as well (apart from the accurate kicking I suppose) so why not have Hogg at 15? I'm expecting both players to tour and think there battle for 15 jersey will reallly make the pre test games vs Barbarians, Force etc that little more exciting to watch.

Don't see how there can be no debate on 1/2p? Its like this. Taking a backline to a 3 test series with any of the SH3 without an attacking Fullback is plain dumb. Do not go on the basis of the 6N results or style of play as a guide to performing against the SH sides. In 3 similar tours last year the top 3 6N sides won 1 from 9 tests. Thats supports the difference between the 2.

An attacking FB in Dagg was a primary reason the AB's were knocking the other two sides over last year. When nothing was working it took Daggs injection into the backline on many occasions to break the game open. A defensive FB against the SH sides is akin to arriving a gunfight with a knife- excuse the cliche but its very apt here.

Pick 1/2p by all means but he had better be packing more than 'safe under the high ball and 'good on defence' the things he seems to have got player of the 6N for when theyre really minimum requirements of the job description. And even those traits will be severely tested against Oz.

Staggers how so many can support the concept of a non attacking Fullback in todays game. If Dagg did that it would have kiwi's wondering who on earth has lost the plot.

Its this kind of thinking that keeps the 6N sides where they are.

by tigger17 Fri 5 Apr 2013 - 21:12

Taylorman wrote:
bsando wrote:
tigger17 wrote:Hi All, longtime reader first time poster. I voted for Halfpenny, Dont see how there can be any debate here. We have 3 world class wingers in Bowe, North and Cuthbert all of whom have scored against Australia. We also have the best fullback in the northern hemisphere in Halfpenny and we are debating moving him to accomondate Hogg? I dont think so. Gatland will start Halfpenny at fullback for the tests.

Welcome!

I know its hard to comprehend taking 1/2p away from the 15 spot, I'm a big fan of him too and if he is selected as fullback every test it would be great. But the main argument amongst most posters on here is the attacking capabilities Hogg possesses which are quite extraordinary at times. And he can basically do everything that HP can do as well (apart from the accurate kicking I suppose) so why not have Hogg at 15? I'm expecting both players to tour and think there battle for 15 jersey will reallly make the pre test games vs Barbarians, Force etc that little more exciting to watch.

Don't see how there can be no debate on 1/2p? Its like this. Taking a backline to a 3 test series with any of the SH3 without an attacking Fullback is plain dumb. Do not go on the basis of the 6N results or style of play as a guide to performing against the SH sides. In 3 similar tours last year the top 3 6N sides won 1 from 9 tests. Thats supports the difference between the 2.

An attacking FB in Dagg was a primary reason the AB's were knocking the other two sides over last year. When nothing was working it took Daggs injection into the backline on many occasions to break the game open. A defensive FB against the SH sides is akin to arriving a gunfight with a knife- excuse the cliche but its very apt here.

Pick 1/2p by all means but he had better be packing more than 'safe under the high ball and 'good on defence' the things he seems to have got player of the 6N for when theyre really minimum requirements of the job description. And even those traits will be severely tested against Oz.

Staggers how so many can support the concept of a non attacking Fullback in todays game. If Dagg did that it would have kiwi's wondering who on earth has lost the plot.

Its this kind of thinking that keeps the 6N sides where they are.

Hi Taylorman. Granted Halfpenny was not attack minded in the 6n but he is more than capable of doing it. On the hard Australian ground I think we will see him attack a lot more. Do you think Halfpenny is a better winger than Cuthbert North or Bowe?>

by Taylorman Fri 5 Apr 2013 - 21:29

I havnt seen enough of 1/2p on the wing but a 'sit in the boot of the car' role in the 6N is hardly the ideal for an attacking role on the wing against Oz. It might be horses for coueses in some warped sense but he'll be up against the likes of Ioane who leaves all the 6N wingers- and most SH wingers for that matter- for dead in terms of sheer attacking ability and work rate.

Its a big ask and one Gatland will be grappling with. But he's obviously had a good deal to do with 1/2p with Wales so is likely to back him- and so he should.

All I'm saying is the Lions have got to run the ball into the Oz back yard and the best attacking FB they have available is a must or they'll get hammered in that area. I just think its as simple as that.

by Liam Fri 5 Apr 2013 - 22:08

Tell you what if Kearney can stay fit and play like he did tonight I'd have top pick him as my 15 for the Lions. Thing is on the old 1/2p debate, i saw a small clip form the Oz game in the AI where Wales turned ball over, shipped it wide and 1/2p made a fantastic break from FB. He went the length of the field, showed how lightening fast he is and highlighted when given the chance, can do the things in attack FB's are expected to do. But back to my first point, if kearney's fit, he's my full back.

by Taylorman Fri 5 Apr 2013 - 22:25

From what I can tell Kearney and 1/2p are generally about even on a world scale. The issue for me is neither has been attacking lately at the international level- both for different reasons.

The ability to pick a pack from the best of the four countries suggests that they'll likely have a stronger tight five and a better set of loosies given Oz are light in both areas, and if the likes of Tipuric, Brown, Warburton etc are there.

I believe this provides Gatland with the license to select the very best and hardest straight running and attacking players that he can, and why the best attacking FB is a must in order to capitalise on the amount of ball they get to the maximum. Thats why I keep harping on about an attacking 10 also.

Its no secret Oz have one way of winning this series- absorb the inevitable pressure that will come up front and make the best use of every scrap of ball they get. And in that sense, theyre better at both than anyone else. Theyve stayed at number two last few seasons by doing exactly those two things. They feed off peanuts far better than anyone.

This makes a Lions back attack critical to this series and why a player like 1/2p or Kearney or whoever it is cannot be allowed to sit at the back. In this respect, the form attacking Fullback is Hogg whether people like to admit it or not, and for that reason alone Gatland must consider him as an option given the absence of any other attacking choices from the 6N. They need to have the Ozzie backs thinking as much about defence as attack even if just to keep them busy and a few hits on them will do worlds of good in knocking their confidence on attack.

And I'm not concerned so much about defence- NH sides practice it to death anyway, and if Oz click into gear the way they can it wouldnt matter which defence was in front of them anyway.

by Taffineastbourne Fri 5 Apr 2013 - 22:59

Taylorman wrote:
bsando wrote:
tigger17 wrote:Hi All, longtime reader first time poster. I voted for Halfpenny, Dont see how there can be any debate here. We have 3 world class wingers in Bowe, North and Cuthbert all of whom have scored against Australia. We also have the best fullback in the northern hemisphere in Halfpenny and we are debating moving him to accomondate Hogg? I dont think so. Gatland will start Halfpenny at fullback for the tests.

Welcome!

I know its hard to comprehend taking 1/2p away from the 15 spot, I'm a big fan of him too and if he is selected as fullback every test it would be great. But the main argument amongst most posters on here is the attacking capabilities Hogg possesses which are quite extraordinary at times. And he can basically do everything that HP can do as well (apart from the accurate kicking I suppose) so why not have Hogg at 15? I'm expecting both players to tour and think there battle for 15 jersey will reallly make the pre test games vs Barbarians, Force etc that little more exciting to watch.

Don't see how there can be no debate on 1/2p? Its like this. Taking a backline to a 3 test series with any of the SH3 without an attacking Fullback is plain dumb. Do not go on the basis of the 6N results or style of play as a guide to performing against the SH sides. In 3 similar tours last year the top 3 6N sides won 1 from 9 tests. Thats supports the difference between the 2.

An attacking FB in Dagg was a primary reason the AB's were knocking the other two sides over last year. When nothing was working it took Daggs injection into the backline on many occasions to break the game open. A defensive FB against the SH sides is akin to arriving a gunfight with a knife- excuse the cliche but its very apt here.

Pick 1/2p by all means but he had better be packing more than 'safe under the high ball and 'good on defence' the things he seems to have got player of the 6N for when theyre really minimum requirements of the job description. And even those traits will be severely tested against Oz.

Staggers how so many can support the concept of a non attacking Fullback in todays game. If Dagg did that it would have kiwi's wondering who on earth has lost the plot.

Its this kind of thinking that keeps the 6N sides where they are.

Taylorman,I can understand that you are not fully aware of what Halfpenny has got under his bonnet given the Wales style of play.Trust me,the guy can shift.Do not tell the Oz! Wink

by Guest Fri 5 Apr 2013 - 23:02

Taylorman, I agree with you to a certain extent, but Halfpenny and Shaun Edwards have said recently that Halfpenny staying back is part of the game plan. He's told to do it. He's much more attacking for his club side. The main point though is his national coach is...... you guessed it, the same Mr Gatland as he who will be Lions head coach. So, either he keeps the same game plan so it makes no difference if Hogg is playing as he'll be told to stay back, or he'll tear up his coaching manual for the last god knows how many years and let his 15 run from deep, so Hogg or 1/2p will be able to attack (or Kearney for that matter).

Don't be fooled that this perceived inability to attack is a trait for halfpenny. He can attack. He's just very good at sticking to the gameplan. Not a gameplan I agree with to be honest with you, but he's good at sticking to it nonetheless.

by Taffineastbourne Fri 5 Apr 2013 - 23:21

tigger17 wrote:Hi All, longtime reader first time poster. I voted for Halfpenny, Dont see how there can be any debate here. We have 3 world class wingers in Bowe, North and Cuthbert all of whom have scored against Australia. We also have the best fullback in the northern hemisphere in Halfpenny and we are debating moving him to accomondate Hogg? I dont think so. Gatland will start Halfpenny at fullback for the tests.

Welcome!
You have wisdom as you echo my thoughts precisely.If something ain't broke you do not try to fix it.

by 100%beefy Sat 6 Apr 2013 - 3:11

Sorry chaps but if Sexton starts i can see Hogg at 15, much better counter attacker than Half much as i think it should be Half. If it is Farrell/Biggy at 10 then i can see Half starting.

by flyhalffactory Sat 6 Apr 2013 - 5:38

Taffineastbourne wrote:
tigger17 wrote:Hi All, longtime reader first time poster. I voted for Halfpenny, Dont see how there can be any debate here. We have 3 world class wingers in Bowe, North and Cuthbert all of whom have scored against Australia. We also have the best fullback in the northern hemisphere in Halfpenny and we are debating moving him to accomondate Hogg? I dont think so. Gatland will start Halfpenny at fullback for the tests.
Welcome!
You have wisdom as you echo my thoughts precisely.If something ain't broke you do not try to fix it.

So you are saying that Halfpenny (and Wales) down under last year "ain't broke"

Big difference between winning 6Ns in successive years and in the same time period losing against all the SH sides, almost reverse the mirror and find Hogg (and Scotland) not doing well in the 6Ns but beating SH opponents often at their own doorsteps.

And where and who are we playing in the summer.......... that's right in OZ against a SH side

I would say it very much so it "aren't working, hence it must be broke"

We have to start looking at players who have exposure, the ability and the experience of actually not been gallant unlucky losers but winners against and in SH countries

by Guest Sat 6 Apr 2013 - 7:14

flyhalffactory wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:
tigger17 wrote:Hi All, longtime reader first time poster. I voted for Halfpenny, Dont see how there can be any debate here. We have 3 world class wingers in Bowe, North and Cuthbert all of whom have scored against Australia. We also have the best fullback in the northern hemisphere in Halfpenny and we are debating moving him to accomondate Hogg? I dont think so. Gatland will start Halfpenny at fullback for the tests.
Welcome!
You have wisdom as you echo my thoughts precisely.If something ain't broke you do not try to fix it.

So you are saying that Halfpenny (and Wales) down under last year "ain't broke"

Big difference between winning 6Ns in successive years and in the same time period losing against all the SH sides, almost reverse the mirror and find Hogg (and Scotland) not doing well in the 6Ns but beating SH opponents often at their own doorsteps.

And where and who are we playing in the summer.......... that's right in OZ against a SH side

I would say it very much so it "aren't working, hence it must be broke"

We have to start looking at players who have exposure, the ability and the experience of actually not been gallant unlucky losers but winners against and in SH countries

So we pick the Scots and hope for a mass downpour for the three tests aye? laughing

Besides which, as well as Scotland did in beating Australia, they didn't do it by attacking them, which somewhats contradicts the general consensus that we want to have a go at the Aussies in the Summer.

I personally would rather pick players who have generally outshone their counterparts when they competed against them. That doesn't strictly have to be Welsh people and could include Scottish players like Hogg etc. I don't see why form or results from last year would make Gatland think twice about picking a Welsh player. Because if we are considering those results, then surely players who lost to Tonga in the Autumn wouldn't be looked upon too favourably either.

by **RDW** Sat 6 Apr 2013 - 8:48

Kearney's performance last night has thrown a real spanner into the works! He's starting to look like his old self, and gatland was watching.

Can't help but think there's going to be a real high profile omission in the back 3

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