Fullback choices for the Lions tour to Australia

by maestegmafia Mon 01 Apr 2013, 8:37 pm

by Taylorman Sat 06 Apr 2013, 8:50 am

Griff wrote:Taylorman, I agree with you to a certain extent, but Halfpenny and Shaun Edwards have said recently that Halfpenny staying back is part of the game plan. He's told to do it. He's much more attacking for his club side. The main point though is his national coach is...... you guessed it, the same Mr Gatland as he who will be Lions head coach. So, either he keeps the same game plan so it makes no difference if Hogg is playing as he'll be told to stay back, or he'll tear up his coaching manual for the last god knows how many years and let his 15 run from deep, so Hogg or 1/2p will be able to attack (or Kearney for that matter).

Don't be fooled that this perceived inability to attack is a trait for halfpenny. He can attack. He's just very good at sticking to the gameplan. Not a gameplan I agree with to be honest with you, but he's good at sticking to it nonetheless.

I have never said 1/2p isnt able to or is por on atack, I know he is an excellent ball carrier. My point is that he's not, and to continue that with the Lions would be a mistake. In addition, to change to include him on attack means he will not have had the right dress rehearsal to do so. If not including him on attack is seen as a risk at 6N time, its not likely the thinking will change against a tougher opponent.

So in looking at the 6N form for both 10 and 15, none stand out as individuals who take the ball to the line or inject life into the backline, That is why much of the middle of the tournament was dour- all sides took a risk averse approach and let penalties decide the day in most results.

You just cant take that approach against the SH sides at home. In the SH tests dont get won by NOT doing things.

by Totalflanker Sat 06 Apr 2013, 8:59 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Kearney's performance last night has thrown a real spanner into the works! He's starting to look like his old self, and gatland was watching.

Can't help but think there's going to be a real high profile omission in the back 3

Yup - he was great under the high ball, and showed more than a glimpse or two of his old attacking prowess. Figure Gatland's presence at the match, among others, was most likely about seeing how Kearney and Heaslip got on.

by BigTrevsbigmac Sat 06 Apr 2013, 9:00 am

Taylorman wrote:
Griff wrote:Taylorman, I agree with you to a certain extent, but Halfpenny and Shaun Edwards have said recently that Halfpenny staying back is part of the game plan. He's told to do it. He's much more attacking for his club side. The main point though is his national coach is...... you guessed it, the same Mr Gatland as he who will be Lions head coach. So, either he keeps the same game plan so it makes no difference if Hogg is playing as he'll be told to stay back, or he'll tear up his coaching manual for the last god knows how many years and let his 15 run from deep, so Hogg or 1/2p will be able to attack (or Kearney for that matter).

Don't be fooled that this perceived inability to attack is a trait for halfpenny. He can attack. He's just very good at sticking to the gameplan. Not a gameplan I agree with to be honest with you, but he's good at sticking to it nonetheless.

I have never said 1/2p isnt able to or is por on atack, I know he is an excellent ball carrier. My point is that he's not, and to continue that with the Lions would be a mistake. In addition, to change to include him on attack means he will not have had the right dress rehearsal to do so. If not including him on attack is seen as a risk at 6N time, its not likely the thinking will change against a tougher opponent.

So in looking at the 6N form for both 10 and 15, none stand out as individuals who take the ball to the line or inject life into the backline, That is why much of the middle of the tournament was dour- all sides took a risk averse approach and let penalties decide the day in most results.

You just cant take that approach against the SH sides at home. In the SH tests dont get won by NOT doing things.

I think most Lions fans would agree with you but I don't think Gatland will be as bold.

by Guest Sat 06 Apr 2013, 9:28 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Griff wrote:Taylorman, I agree with you to a certain extent, but Halfpenny and Shaun Edwards have said recently that Halfpenny staying back is part of the game plan. He's told to do it. He's much more attacking for his club side. The main point though is his national coach is...... you guessed it, the same Mr Gatland as he who will be Lions head coach. So, either he keeps the same game plan so it makes no difference if Hogg is playing as he'll be told to stay back, or he'll tear up his coaching manual for the last god knows how many years and let his 15 run from deep, so Hogg or 1/2p will be able to attack (or Kearney for that matter).

Don't be fooled that this perceived inability to attack is a trait for halfpenny. He can attack. He's just very good at sticking to the gameplan. Not a gameplan I agree with to be honest with you, but he's good at sticking to it nonetheless.

I have never said 1/2p isnt able to or is por on atack, I know he is an excellent ball carrier. My point is that he's not, and to continue that with the Lions would be a mistake. In addition, to change to include him on attack means he will not have had the right dress rehearsal to do so. If not including him on attack is seen as a risk at 6N time, its not likely the thinking will change against a tougher opponent.

So in looking at the 6N form for both 10 and 15, none stand out as individuals who take the ball to the line or inject life into the backline, That is why much of the middle of the tournament was dour- all sides took a risk averse approach and let penalties decide the day in most results.

You just cant take that approach against the SH sides at home. In the SH tests dont get won by NOT doing things.

I think most Lions fans would agree with you but I don't think Gatland will be as bold.

Exactly. We all know, but is Gatland listening? If not, then he's likely to stick with a defense orientated FB.

by **Biltong** Sat 06 Apr 2013, 9:29 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Kearney's performance last night has thrown a real spanner into the works! He's starting to look like his old self, and gatland was watching.

Can't help but think there's going to be a real high profile omission in the back 3

by **RDW** Sat 06 Apr 2013, 9:32 am

Biltong wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Kearney's performance last night has thrown a real spanner into the works! He's starting to look like his old self, and gatland was watching.

Can't help but think there's going to be a real high profile omission in the back 3

by Taffineastbourne Sat 06 Apr 2013, 9:40 am

flyhalffactory wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:
tigger17 wrote:Hi All, longtime reader first time poster. I voted for Halfpenny, Dont see how there can be any debate here. We have 3 world class wingers in Bowe, North and Cuthbert all of whom have scored against Australia. We also have the best fullback in the northern hemisphere in Halfpenny and we are debating moving him to accomondate Hogg? I dont think so. Gatland will start Halfpenny at fullback for the tests.
Welcome!
You have wisdom as you echo my thoughts precisely.If something ain't broke you do not try to fix it.

So you are saying that Halfpenny (and Wales) down under last year "ain't broke"

Big difference between winning 6Ns in successive years and in the same time period losing against all the SH sides, almost reverse the mirror and find Hogg (and Scotland) not doing well in the 6Ns but beating SH opponents often at their own doorsteps.

And where and who are we playing in the summer.......... that's right in OZ against a SH side

I would say it very much so it "aren't working, hence it must be broke"

We have to start looking at players who have exposure, the ability and the experience of actually not been gallant unlucky losers but winners against and in SH countries

I cannot see how putting Hogg into a Gatland side would change anything.If Gatland does not want the 15 to be overly attack minded.
Regards the chestnut of the losses to Oz,if you had watched them,Wales played well enough to have won two of them and individual's c@ck ups snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.There didn't seem too much wrong and Halfpenny was fine.
The Scottish rain dance ruse has limited mileage I fear.

by maestegmafia Sat 06 Apr 2013, 9:54 am

FHF

This whole argument about the Welsh players being inferior because we haven't beaten Australia in a few years is a very cheap stick to beat with.

This is a British and Irish effort. With a few of our mates we will all be much stronger.

I don't understand this petty bickering above by so many posters over the merits and inadequacy's of two fantastic players.

Both should make the tour and both will hopefully push each other to be even better players.

This will hopefully benefit us all massively.

by flyhalffactory Sat 06 Apr 2013, 4:16 pm

maestegmafia wrote:FHF

This whole argument about the Welsh players being inferior because we haven't beaten Australia in a few years is a very cheap stick to beat with.

This is a British and Irish effort. With a few of our mates we will all be much stronger.

I don't understand this petty bickering above by so many posters over the merits and inadequacy's of two fantastic players.

Both should make the tour and both will hopefully push each other to be even better players.

This will hopefully benefit us all massively.

This is a serious response not a cheap stick, and I never mentioned inferior in anyway or form, conversely by your rationale basing MOM or Man of the Tournament performances to promote a player over another is a cheap stick. Your poll enable's us to pick ONE player so I am assuming its who we pick as the player to start the test. I wouldn't have a problem 1/2p starting at all even if Hogg wasn't picked at all in the test side, however based on all criteria I think that Hogg is better qualified to face the SH side, the SH style of play, on the SH hard pitches.

When Pocock got tucked up by Rennie for the whole of the 80 mins (and to a lesser extent Barclay the next encounter) the OZ rugby press went into free-fall, it didn't come as a surprise massive when we were the first team to win a test against the Pumas in their own back yard. That "mind-set" I.e. that Scotland as a rugby union unit were able to beat SH opponents was in itself massively important, conversely the inability to win (albeit very unlucky not to win at least 2 out of 3 test matches) must be a factor in selection.

This is a forum to discuss the players as a "package" based on the LIONS strategy to win the series in Australian against SH style opponents, not as individual performances in a NH tournament played in a cold Feb/Mar six week period. Hence lets investigate all aspects of a player so that we choose the most appropriate one to start the test

Gatland has said "Form" (not just 6Ns, but also AVP, Top14 and Pro12) is not the only criteria, but "Experience", "Horses for courses", "Mind-set", "Character" "Team Players" etc etc are equally important.

by tigger17 Sat 06 Apr 2013, 4:38 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:
tigger17 wrote:Hi All, longtime reader first time poster. I voted for Halfpenny, Dont see how there can be any debate here. We have 3 world class wingers in Bowe, North and Cuthbert all of whom have scored against Australia. We also have the best fullback in the northern hemisphere in Halfpenny and we are debating moving him to accomondate Hogg? I dont think so. Gatland will start Halfpenny at fullback for the tests.
Welcome!
You have wisdom as you echo my thoughts precisely.If something ain't broke you do not try to fix it.

Thanks Taff. As someone mentioned earlier, Halfpoennys lack of attacking is down to gameplan not choice. Just because Australia play a running back 3 who says we have to? If we play a running fame against Australia we will lose, it has to be tactical. Gatland is a world class coach and he wont bow down to peer pressure for picking players. He will pick the best side that he see fit and I cant see past Hogg being on the bench if I am being realistic.

by 100%beefy Sat 06 Apr 2013, 5:25 pm

The back 3 is probably the easiest to pick and there won't be any omissions. Half, Hogg and Kearney will go. Half is assured a pick as the best player in the NH this year, outstanding kicker and can play on the wing, Hogg as the most potent counterattacker of the 3 and the bolter and Kearney as the experienced Lion who on form is probably the best player.

This suggestion that Scottish players are better placed to perform down under having beaten Aus in a monsoon and Samoa is a complete misunderstanding of the Lions. It has nought to do with national origins, the lions is a whole different beast

by **Biltong** Sat 06 Apr 2013, 5:51 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Biltong wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Kearney's performance last night has thrown a real spanner into the works! He's starting to look like his old self, and gatland was watching.

Can't help but think there's going to be a real high profile omission in the back 3

he is my favourite fullback in the Six Nations

by Guest Sat 06 Apr 2013, 5:55 pm

I wouldn't call it a misunderstanding. It just seems that for some reason people feel they have to justify their preferred choices over other players (like Hogg over Halfpenny and Laidlaw over Phillips and vice versa). I don't really see the need, but it isn't going to change. If a player is good enough to tour, he will tour. If he's then good enough to warrant a starting place, he'll get it. Gatland is no fool and will badly want to beat the Aussies.

All this we beat Australia, we beat you stuff can wait till after the third test and if we lose the series, then it's warranted for people to try over analysing everything. It only seems to be between the Welsh and the Scots though to be fair, but it is getting a bit tedious

by 100%beefy Sat 06 Apr 2013, 6:06 pm

Risca Rev wrote:I wouldn't call it a misunderstanding. It just seems that for some reason people feel they have to justify their preferred choices over other players (like Hogg over Halfpenny and Laidlaw over Phillips and vice versa). I don't really see the need, but it isn't going to change. If a player is good enough to tour, he will tour. If he's then good enough to warrant a starting place, he'll get it. Gatland is no fool and will badly want to beat the Aussies.

All this we beat Australia, we beat you stuff can wait till after the third test and if we lose the series, then it's warranted for people to try over analysing everything. It only seems to be between the Welsh and the Scots though to be fair, but it is getting a bit tedious

sounds like amassive misunderstanding to me! The Lions isn't about national origins that is why it is so special. Yes we all want our players to feature but lets just be honest and admit it is entirely biased and using wins v sh as a benchmark is a big mistake...on that basis shouldn't we just send England down there.

by flyhalffactory Sat 06 Apr 2013, 6:07 pm

tigger17 wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:
tigger17 wrote:Hi All, longtime reader first time poster. I voted for Halfpenny, Dont see how there can be any debate here. We have 3 world class wingers in Bowe, North and Cuthbert all of whom have scored against Australia. We also have the best fullback in the northern hemisphere in Halfpenny and we are debating moving him to accomondate Hogg? I dont think so. Gatland will start Halfpenny at fullback for the tests.
Welcome!
You have wisdom as you echo my thoughts precisely.If something ain't broke you do not try to fix it.

Thanks Taff. As someone mentioned earlier, Halfpoennys lack of attacking is down to gameplan not choice. Just because Australia play a running back 3 who says we have to? If we play a running fame against Australia we will lose, it has to be tactical. Gatland is a world class coach and he wont bow down to peer pressure for picking players. He will pick the best side that he see fit and I cant see past Hogg being on the bench if I am being realistic.

Do you really think it is TOTALLY down to coaching game-plan then?

If that is only it, how do you explain Liam Williams attacking intent when he has played for Wales only last year, the guy like a young JPR was like a breath of fresh air, and the opposing players were damn well concerned with his attacking potential for finding the gap to attack and his bullish take no prisoners intent. Wales implemented a plan to accommodate Liams Williams obvious attacking talent, then how come they have changed it when Halfpenny played. Halfpenny is a goal kicking machine who hardly ever misses that has been vitally important to Wales over the last two seasons

The defensive game-plan as was employed by Wales last year FAILED, and this is not Gatland and the WRU (Wales) where he is the dominant force, this is as Maesteg said Gatland and The Lions Management who are all experienced articulate managers and former players, he will select and coach players to implement the management strategy :

"WIN the series not defend against a SH team on their own soil".

by Guest Sat 06 Apr 2013, 6:14 pm

The game plan failed when?

by flyhalffactory Sat 06 Apr 2013, 6:17 pm

100%beefy wrote:The back 3 is probably the easiest to pick and there won't be any omissions. Half, Hogg and Kearney will go. Half is assured a pick as the best player in the NH this year, outstanding kicker and can play on the wing, Hogg as the most potent counterattacker of the 3 and the bolter and Kearney as the experienced Lion who on form is probably the best player.

This suggestion that Scottish players are better placed to perform down under having beaten Aus in a monsoon and Samoa is a complete misunderstanding of the Lions. It has nought to do with national origins, the lions is a whole different beast

If you can only think of two SH teams we have beaten then it beggars belief, we actually beat the Pumas in their own back yard which had never ever been achieved in the same time frame.

Can you explain why the ability and experience to beat SH teams home or away, or to win a test series in SH countries has no influence a selection when you are about to play a SH team in a SH country.

by flyhalffactory Sat 06 Apr 2013, 6:18 pm

Risca Rev wrote:The game plan failed when?

You played the autumn series and you played OZ predominantly SH teams

by flyhalffactory Sat 06 Apr 2013, 6:30 pm

Risca Rev wrote:I wouldn't call it a misunderstanding. It just seems that for some reason people feel they have to justify their preferred choices over other players (like Hogg over Halfpenny and Laidlaw over Phillips and vice versa). I don't really see the need, but it isn't going to change. If a player is good enough to tour, he will tour. If he's then good enough to warrant a starting place, he'll get it. Gatland is no fool and will badly want to beat the Aussies.

All this we beat Australia, we beat you stuff can wait till after the third test and if we lose the series, then it's warranted for people to try over analysing everything. It only seems to be between the Welsh and the Scots though to be fair, but it is getting a bit tedious

That is the whole point of a forum!

Otherwise you will have all the WUMs and Multiple Users screaming Cipps, Henson, ROG, Dan Parks, then running away sniggering and waiting for the fallout.

This all started when Hogg was ahead in the poll and you had a number of posters stating he was a defensive liability...........

We all know Halfpenny is odds on for the 15 shirt and fully deserving but to throw the toys out of the pram when he is behind in the poll, then you will get a reaction..............

by 100%beefy Sat 06 Apr 2013, 6:32 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
100%beefy wrote:The back 3 is probably the easiest to pick and there won't be any omissions. Half, Hogg and Kearney will go. Half is assured a pick as the best player in the NH this year, outstanding kicker and can play on the wing, Hogg as the most potent counterattacker of the 3 and the bolter and Kearney as the experienced Lion who on form is probably the best player.

This suggestion that Scottish players are better placed to perform down under having beaten Aus in a monsoon and Samoa is a complete misunderstanding of the Lions. It has nought to do with national origins, the lions is a whole different beast

If you can only think of two SH teams we have beaten then it beggars belief, we actually beat the Pumas in their own back yard which had never ever been achieved in the same time frame.

Can you explain why the ability and experience to beat SH teams home or away, or to win a test series in SH countries has no influence a selection when you are about to play a SH team in a SH country.

No, next question....like i said, based on that argument, it makes sense to send England as they recently murdered the ABs. You are suggesting that Scottish players are somehow better equipped because they beat Fiji, Samoa and Aus in a mudbath and i disagree, entirely. thumbsup

by Guest Sat 06 Apr 2013, 6:39 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:The game plan failed when?

You played the autumn series and you played OZ predominantly SH teams

But then your results in the Autumn weren't too special either?

by flyhalffactory Sat 06 Apr 2013, 6:39 pm

100%beefy wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
100%beefy wrote:The back 3 is probably the easiest to pick and there won't be any omissions. Half, Hogg and Kearney will go. Half is assured a pick as the best player in the NH this year, outstanding kicker and can play on the wing, Hogg as the most potent counterattacker of the 3 and the bolter and Kearney as the experienced Lion who on form is probably the best player.

This suggestion that Scottish players are better placed to perform down under having beaten Aus in a monsoon and Samoa is a complete misunderstanding of the Lions. It has nought to do with national origins, the lions is a whole different beast

If you can only think of two SH teams we have beaten then it beggars belief, we actually beat the Pumas in their own back yard which had never ever been achieved in the same time frame.

Can you explain why the ability and experience to beat SH teams home or away, or to win a test series in SH countries has no influence a selection when you are about to play a SH team in a SH country.

No, next question....like i said, based on that argument, it makes sense to send England as they recently murdered the ABs. You are suggesting that Scottish players are somehow better equipped because they beat Fiji, Samoa and Aus in a mudbath and i disagree, entirely.

This is like getting blood out of a stone

Ok once more............. WE BEAT THE PUMAS NOT ONCE BUT TWICE IN THE HEAT IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY...... THAT'S SOMETHING NO OTHER TEAM HAS MANAGED TO DO. Some players have had exposure to that and the Fiji, Samoa, and Aus wins. Gatland has stated that it will not just be about form but how players have reacted in the past to defeat and victory on and off the park, "character" in other words

by bsando Sat 06 Apr 2013, 6:39 pm

I agree with Taylorman on this one.

Hogg is playing an attacking role with Glasgow and Scotland at the moment. 1/2p is playing a defensive role with Wales and a mix of both with the Blues as far as I know and have seen (Blues fans will know better than me). If Gatland wants an attacking fullback then Hogg would be the obvious choice currently.

However, I think he'll choose Kearney and Halfpenny.

I'd prefer an attacking fullback over a defensive one, which is why I would choose Hogg to start due to his current form and way he is being coached to play by both Scotland and Glasgow.

by flyhalffactory Sat 06 Apr 2013, 6:42 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:The game plan failed when?

You played the autumn series and you played OZ predominantly SH teams

But then your results in the Autumn weren't too special either?

That's immaterial the argument is that Gatland will play the same way that he has played previously

by Guest Sat 06 Apr 2013, 6:46 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:I wouldn't call it a misunderstanding. It just seems that for some reason people feel they have to justify their preferred choices over other players (like Hogg over Halfpenny and Laidlaw over Phillips and vice versa). I don't really see the need, but it isn't going to change. If a player is good enough to tour, he will tour. If he's then good enough to warrant a starting place, he'll get it. Gatland is no fool and will badly want to beat the Aussies.

All this we beat Australia, we beat you stuff can wait till after the third test and if we lose the series, then it's warranted for people to try over analysing everything. It only seems to be between the Welsh and the Scots though to be fair, but it is getting a bit tedious

That is the whole point of a forum!

Otherwise you will have all the WUMs and Multiple Users screaming Cipps, Henson, ROG, Dan Parks, then running away sniggering and waiting for the fallout.

This all started when Hogg was ahead in the poll and you had a number of posters stating he was a defensive liability...........

We all know Halfpenny is odds on for the 15 shirt and fully deserving but to throw the toys out of the pram when he is behind in the poll, then you will get a reaction..............

But then the stats (which of course a few of your countrymen like to use to demonstrate Hogg's attacking prowess) seem to back that up a bit, if the seven missed tackles is correct?

I don't mind a debate and that, but these discussions don't half seem to go round in circles a wee bit laughing

What's the deal with this Argentina series win? I'm a bit confused as to what the significance of your two game win is?

by Guest Sat 06 Apr 2013, 6:54 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:The game plan failed when?

You played the autumn series and you played OZ predominantly SH teams

But then your results in the Autumn weren't too special either?

That's immaterial the argument is that Gatland will play the same way that he has played previously

But the tactics basically did work and we probably should've had at least two if not three wins over Australia next year. The solution would be not to play Hibbard so he doesn't collapse mauls and not to play Priestland (no danger), so he doesn't kick the ball back to the Aussies with the game as good as over Laugh

by flyhalffactory Sat 06 Apr 2013, 7:04 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:I wouldn't call it a misunderstanding. It just seems that for some reason people feel they have to justify their preferred choices over other players (like Hogg over Halfpenny and Laidlaw over Phillips and vice versa). I don't really see the need, but it isn't going to change. If a player is good enough to tour, he will tour. If he's then good enough to warrant a starting place, he'll get it. Gatland is no fool and will badly want to beat the Aussies.

All this we beat Australia, we beat you stuff can wait till after the third test and if we lose the series, then it's warranted for people to try over analysing everything. It only seems to be between the Welsh and the Scots though to be fair, but it is getting a bit tedious

That is the whole point of a forum!

Otherwise you will have all the WUMs and Multiple Users screaming Cipps, Henson, ROG, Dan Parks, then running away sniggering and waiting for the fallout.

This all started when Hogg was ahead in the poll and you had a number of posters stating he was a defensive liability...........

We all know Halfpenny is odds on for the 15 shirt and fully deserving but to throw the toys out of the pram when he is behind in the poll, then you will get a reaction..............

But then the stats (which of course a few of your countrymen like to use to demonstrate Hogg's attacking prowess) seem to back that up a bit, if the seven missed tackles is correct?

I don't mind a debate and that, but these discussions don't half seem to go round in circles a wee bit

What's the deal with this Argentina series win? I'm a bit confused as to what the significance of your two game win is?

Well certain posters have said that Gatland is his own man and will not bow to peer pressure, play to the plan that he knows and that he will play a defensive game-plan hence he will select players that he feels will fit the plan (i.e. the Halfpennys Cuthberts Faletaus of this world), where he has inferred differently he mentions Form is just one criteria and that off the field experience is as vital to on the field performance hence Character, Experience, Horses For Courses, Team Players, Motivators will be just as vital

Risca mate
Perhaps you can answer this as none of your compatriots don't appear to want to

Its been stated that Halfpenny is playing to the Wales "plan" and that is why he is not attacking when the opportunity has been there, preferring to pass or kick rather than run, they then say "but ahhhh if he was allowed then you would see he is as potent as Hogg"....... OK then

Why when Liam Williams was selected at FB not so long ago did Wales appear to change the "plan" to accommodate his attacking flair, as the guy was like a young JPR, aggressive in the tackle, but running often and making such dangerous breaks. Surely if Halfpenny was as potent at FB as most Welsh posters are saying then we would see him operate like Williams or Byrne before him attacking the gain lines and open spaces

I don't understand why Wales would change a tactic to accommodate a "rookie" like young Williams?

by 100%beefy Sat 06 Apr 2013, 7:04 pm

My mistake, don't send England to Oz, send Scotland to Argentina and then we are guaranteed to win the tour. thumbsup

by flyhalffactory Sat 06 Apr 2013, 7:09 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:The game plan failed when?

You played the autumn series and you played OZ predominantly SH teams

But then your results in the Autumn weren't too special either?

That's immaterial the argument is that Gatland will play the same way that he has played previously

But the tactics basically did work and we probably should've had at least two if not three wins over Australia next year. The solution would be not to play Hibbard so he doesn't collapse mauls and not to play Priestland (no danger), so he doesn't kick the ball back to the Aussies with the game as good as over

Lets be honest that was one of the poorest Oz squads for many a year, they are totally a different prospect now, if you could beat them then, then the tactics aren't going to work this year.

Agree with Hibbard and he still did it in the 6Ns, but The Priest when allowed could see options that your other 10s couldn't, it was your pack who kept been turned over in the mauls and breakdowns, only option for your 10 was to kick

by 100%beefy Sat 06 Apr 2013, 7:10 pm

What was the result last time Scotland played Argentina?

by flyhalffactory Sat 06 Apr 2013, 7:11 pm

100%beefy wrote:My mistake, don't send England to Oz, send Scotland to Argentina and then we are guaranteed to win the tour.

Well done Beefy.............. love it when your backs to the wall and the Hoody comes on

by Guest Sat 06 Apr 2013, 7:19 pm

Hasn't Williams mainly played wing for Wales?

I was being a little flippant with the Priestland comment. If I were on my tryline like that, I would try and bang it downtown too.

by 100%beefy Sat 06 Apr 2013, 7:20 pm

Back to the wall...i don't think so. I love how the minute anyone disagree with you you revert to personal comments because unless you have i your way there is no other. Pure nonsense.
So, just like the last time you tried to lock horns, lets keep to the facts shall we, not your pithy boring remarks,
Your argument makes no sense. On the one hand you state Wales gameplan is the reason The Lions will fail down under...but that has nothing to do with the players, its the coaches. So let's bin gatland and appoint Andy Robinson because he had a good tour down under last year.
And on the other you say that because Scotland beat Aus last year and had a win v Samoa and Fiji while Wales had a mare, that they are somehow better placed to be effective down under this year in the lions. Scotland are, you infer, a more effective touring side v SH. Problem is your obvious bias clouds your judgment. And while i admired the Samoa win, the Aus win was an outlier in NH conditions and Fiji...ok if you want to use that as a measure of SH efficacy go for it, but you haven't wonder why?
No one is denying certain Scots players are needed on tour and argaubly one or two may start, but that is as far as it goes fhf, you had a great 6 Nations but against poor oppostion and are in a much better place than a year ago.
i for one would be happy to see gray at lock with POC or AWJ, and Renie at his best, beattie too, I think Maitland is overhyped as is Visser. i like Laidlaw too. As for Hogg, hope he starts if there is a good kicker in place of Half, hop ehe rampages on the couter but i doubt he will... otherwise Half gets it on defence, kicking and just being the best player in the 6 Nations by a country mile

by Guest Sat 06 Apr 2013, 7:33 pm

I don't know why I am so convinced Gatland will change tactics for this series, as I've never been a fan of his stubbornness (ie not capping Faletau when he should've done and other things), but I do think we will have a crack at them. I also don't mind Halfpenny playing wing if Hogg is showing blistering form still up to and during the tour.

I still think Picamoles was player of the tournament (in my opinion) Beefy, by the way. Even as highly as I rate Halfpenny.

by Guest Sat 06 Apr 2013, 9:03 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:FHF

This whole argument about the Welsh players being inferior because we haven't beaten Australia in a few years is a very cheap stick to beat with.

This is a British and Irish effort. With a few of our mates we will all be much stronger.

I don't understand this petty bickering above by so many posters over the merits and inadequacy's of two fantastic players.

Both should make the tour and both will hopefully push each other to be even better players.

This will hopefully benefit us all massively.

This is a serious response not a cheap stick, and I never mentioned inferior in anyway or form, conversely by your rationale basing MOM or Man of the Tournament performances to promote a player over another is a cheap stick. Your poll enable's us to pick ONE player so I am assuming its who we pick as the player to start the test. I wouldn't have a problem 1/2p starting at all even if Hogg wasn't picked at all in the test side, however based on all criteria I think that Hogg is better qualified to face the SH side, the SH style of play, on the SH hard pitches.

When Pocock got tucked up by Rennie for the whole of the 80 mins (and to a lesser extent Barclay the next encounter) the OZ rugby press went into free-fall, it didn't come as a surprise massive when we were the first team to win a test against the Pumas in their own back yard. That "mind-set" I.e. that Scotland as a rugby union unit were able to beat SH opponents was in itself massively important, conversely the inability to win (albeit very unlucky not to win at least 2 out of 3 test matches) must be a factor in selection.

This is a forum to discuss the players as a "package" based on the LIONS strategy to win the series in Australian against SH style opponents, not as individual performances in a NH tournament played in a cold Feb/Mar six week period. Hence lets investigate all aspects of a player so that we choose the most appropriate one to start the test

Gatland has said "Form" (not just 6Ns, but also AVP, Top14 and Pro12) is not the only criteria, but "Experience", "Horses for courses", "Mind-set", "Character" "Team Players" etc etc are equally important.

FYI Wales won the test series in Argentina in 1999 2-0. Not the current players obviously, but your post makes it sound like you're saying that Scotland were the first to win a test series there. I've got the VHS video if you want to borrow it!

by flyhalffactory Sat 06 Apr 2013, 9:23 pm

100%beefy wrote:Back to the wall...i don't think so. I love how the minute anyone disagree with you you revert to personal comments because unless you have i your way there is no other. Pure nonsense.

My mistake, don't send England to Oz, send Scotland to Argentina and then we are guaranteed to win the tour. thumbsup
So, just like the last time you tried to lock horns, lets keep to the facts shall we, not your pithy boring remarks,

I am talking about this sarcastic comment mate and don't try to hide the fact that you instigated not keeping to the facts fellar, that's not you disagreeing with me, its you resorting to kind

your argument makes no sense. On the one hand you state Wales gameplan is the reason The Lions will fail down under...but that has nothing to do with the players, its the coaches. So let's bin gatland and appoint Andy Robinson because he had a good tour down under last year.
I was responding to one of your posters who said that Gatland will not bow to peer pressure and adopt the same tactics as last time with Wales (to justify a defensive FB), now we all know that the test side will have maybe 8-12 Welshmen many of whom were playing in the three games against OZ (and lets be honest it was regarded as one of the poorest Australian squads) ergo if we adopt the same tactic with the majority of the same players we could well have the same result. So where is the nonsense in that?...... its a reasonable assumption

And on the other you say that because Scotland beat Aus last year and had a win v Samoa and Fiji while Wales had a mare, that they are somehow better placed to be effective down under this year in the lions. Scotland are, you infer, a more effective touring side v SH. Problem is your obvious bias clouds your judgment. And while i admired the Samoa win, the Aus win was an outlier in NH conditions and Fiji...ok if you want to use that as a measure of SH efficacy go for it, but you haven't wonder why?
I have actually read that FIVE times and it makes no more sense every time. Sorry there is no correlation between my bias PROVE IT BY THE WAY and Scotland winning and Wales losing against SH opposition in the time frame, also, also I never said Wales had a mare, I have also said Wales should have won two of the Oz matches but they didnt

No one is denying certain Scots players are needed on tour and argaubly one or two may start, but that is as far as it goes fhf, you had a great 6 Nations but against poor oppostion and are in a much better place than a year ago.
We actually had a average to poor 6Ns and most of us will admit it, some players who were bulled up didn't meet up to the mark I am not going to rake up reffing injuries etc etc, but we didn't play well in general, we have many in the background potentially better. And there is no argument that if we have two in the test side we will be happy, if we have three over the moon. If we have NONE and its deserved then most of us will accept it

i for one would be happy to see gray at lock with POC or AWJ, and Renie at his best, beattie too, I think Maitland is overhyped as is Visser. i like Laidlaw too. As for Hogg, hope he starts if there is a good kicker in place of Half, hop ehe rampages on the couter but i doubt he will... otherwise Half gets it on defence, kicking and just being the best player in the 6 Nations by a country mile

by 100%beefy Sat 06 Apr 2013, 9:58 pm

I wrote my comment about you locking horns after the comment you wrote about my hoody....utter nonsense on your part and you shoot your bolt so quickly...i am so bored of your defensive and arrogant approach to opinions that contravene yours which you tart saying are WUMs...get a grip man.
I really can't be bothered so don't try an draw me into it. Ignore me as i will do you there's a good lad thumbsup

by doctornickolas Sat 06 Apr 2013, 11:14 pm

Couple of points

As mentioned above Wales beat Argentine in 2 tests in Buenos Aires in 1999

Liam Williams won his first cap against the baaBaas as a 15 his other 2 caps were against Aus and NZ at 11 not 15.

by flyhalffactory Sun 07 Apr 2013, 7:50 pm

100%beefy wrote:

I wrote my comment about you locking horns after the comment you wrote about my hoody....utter nonsense on your part and you shoot your bolt so quickly...i am so bored of your defensive and arrogant approach to opinions that contravene yours which you tart saying are WUMs...get a grip man.
I really can't be bothered so don't try an draw me into it. Ignore me as i will do you there's a good lad

My mistake, don't send England to Oz, send Scotland to Argentina and then we are guaranteed to win the tour.

That's was your remark to a decent on-going debate......... so tell me is that not a WUM........... my hoody remark was to this not anything that went on before, so don't attempt muddy the waters. Ignore all you like I will contribute to rugby forums and also retort to above comments attempting to ridicule a decent contribution

by majesticimperialman Sun 07 Apr 2013, 8:31 pm

Do any of you think that Dillan Armatage will get a chance for the Lions after the game between Toulon and Leicester?

Personaly i dont think it would be good idea too take him. He came very close to late tackles and penalties give away...Something that the Lions cannot afford to do. Give away penalties that is.

by glamorganalun Sun 07 Apr 2013, 9:25 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Do any of you think that Dillan Armatage will get a chance for the Lions after the game between Toulon and Leicester?

Personaly i dont think it would be good idea too take him. He came very close to late tackles and penalties give away...Something that the Lions cannot afford to do. Give away penalties that is.

Like you he looked a liability, I though he could play in the 6N but he does not look like the same player of 3 years ago. I thought his brother was worse giving away soft penalties for Flood to kick.

by **George Carlin** Mon 08 Apr 2013, 7:26 am

glamorganalun wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Do any of you think that Dillan Armatage will get a chance for the Lions after the game between Toulon and Leicester?

Personaly i dont think it would be good idea too take him. He came very close to late tackles and penalties give away...Something that the Lions cannot afford to do. Give away penalties that is.

Like you he looked a liability, I though he could play in the 6N but he does not look like the same player of 3 years ago. I thought his brother was worse giving away soft penalties for Flood to kick.

If the Lions were picked last year, then I would have plumped for Armitage to travel as a squad member. His problem has been that he actually hasn't been playing as well this year.

by maestegmafia Sun 21 Apr 2013, 4:12 pm

Another weekend done and dusted. The squad to be announced after the next...!

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