Merged thread euro competition

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Apparently there's a meeting today of two mighty behemoths of the English game meet to (presumably) find a common position on the wreckage of the negotiations on the future of European competition.

It will be interesting if they come to any clear (I doubt that it will be satisfactory) conclusion.

This, remember, is a discussion between two spectacularly incompetent bodies which have presided over farcical maladministration over the past decade.

The RFU, standard bearers of the ideals and ethos of the famed 57 Old Farts, have stumbled and staggered their way 'forward' since the dawn of professionalism.
vs
The PRL who have never managed to provide a satisfactory cohesive, decision which actually improves the English game with a satisfactory watertight, long term 'what if?' structured set of rules. They in their short history have represented solely the elite game through a seemingly never-ending stream of short-term, knee-jerk decisions which sow the quick-germinating seeds of insoluble and self-contradictory positions for the future. From its inception it has been nothing less than a disaster from the issue of voting shares, through parachute payments to the fundamental process of promotion/relegation itself. Bumbling incompetents.

Unfortunately they (the PRL) have the players and therefore all the cards over the RFU exactly two years before the 2015 RWC starts on English soil.

Grim and depressing innit? Especially for non-combatants.

[LordDowlais]

I fear for the six nations ultimatley, if the richer clubs and the PRL can do this now, what is to stop them making the same argument when they have finished this one about the six nations, the bigger population the wider audience, we want more money because of this ect...ect...  This will never go away as there is too much greed, the whole of the rugby world could will end up feeling the affects of this.

This is a landmark moment in the sport, allow the PRL to bully all around them and allow money to dictate every inch of the game, including the downfall of the 6N, and world cup, or to close the door on the greedy power hungry and to stand for what rugby is all about not just on the pitch on sunday mornings but at the highest level of the sport.

+1:clap: 

the anti-english sentiment on here is a bit depressing. can everyone please remember that LNR started this process off, and has been in lockstep with PRL since.

Look I am far from anti-English, believe me, I do not like it when somebody casts aspersions without even knowing me, look at what the clubs in France are doing to their national team, is this what the English want ? Because this is what will happen. Also, could you please tell me where does this stop ? Firsts the HC, then the same argument could be made for the six nations, how long before the PRL and the clubs are running their own league ? Heck, what's the point in having a union at all.

[beshocked]

Well said Chequered jersey.

The Pro12 supporters are very self righteous.

I can see the Pro12 point of view. The status quo is something they are happy with. If I was in your shoes I wouldn't want change either but you must understand the English and French point of view.

TJ you want an European competition to be run by unions.  English and French clubs want a competition run by clubs. I agree with the English and French stance.

International rugby is the domain of the unions - they should be left to that sphere of influence.

Its got nothing to do with being self righteous.  I've no problem with change in the slightest providing all the issues are aired.  I totally understand the English and French clubs perspective.  However the idea that English and French clubs are the only ones disadvantaged under the current format is just silly.  You have actually on previous threads ignored my points because actually you have no answer for the areas the Pro 12 sides are disadvantaged.  

So lets look at the proposed items from the English & French:

1.  A block calendar and a movement of the HC final - No one has an issue with this and actually this is the easiest point of them all to eradicate.  Only people against this could be the broadcasters (who ultimately will control all scheduling issues anyway).

2.  Money to be split equally between 3 leagues for the funds with each region entitled to its own broadcasting deals - currently the system sees 50% of the revenue head to the Pro 12 (although this is partly due to fund distribution for teams who get further in the HC).  So Ireland for example receive more than Wales on the basis they supply a third of the quarter finalists most years.  This also sees the French earn a little more last year on the basis of providing 2 finalists.  While I can agree a fairer distribution method is needed, you can appreciate the concern of putting a reward system in place that funds all 3 league equally without stipulating any further requirements in performance because you will possibly end up in a situation where clubs will merely take the cash and run once they have qualified for the HC without any need to really perform in it.  This is especially the case for 10 out of the 20 participants who have zero chance of winning the tournament.  That would see us lose the quality at group match stage and would just be a drop down from the current situation which benefits no one, as sponsors would not look at this favourably.

3. Equal voting rights without interference from the Unions - basically a impossible ask because the Pro 12 provinces/regions cannot separate themselves from their Unions due to the funding criteria.  I think every Pro 12 side would like to but its an impossible ask because the Unions wont allow it.  Everyone knows this is just a smoke screen so the PRL as more opportunity to trade for itself.


Issues not covered and unnoticed which also should be discuss -

1. Salary Caps - Surely all teams in the HC should be capped with the amount of squad spends allowed for HC representation.   England and France have higher salary caps.  If more money is given to them without restrictions it stands to reason that Pro 12 sides will be disadvantaged playing sides with greater budgets not to mention the likely player drain effect this will cause the Pro 12.

2. Non Home based player rulings - Pro 12 sides work under restrictions of signings.  The English and French don't.  So basically in those countries due to a lack of HC restrictions a side with enough money could turn up with the current all black squad while the Pro 12 sides are restricted.  Given that the Pro 12 only has 6 capped foreigners max and in some cases even less (which is less than 10% of the playing squad), it stand to reason that English and French clubs should have to work under those same circumstances to make any changes fair.



I'm all for a proactive meeting and compromise on both sides.  I have no real objections to any of the PRL points made providing all the point I have made where met.  For one thing the foreign ruling would end the player drain the Pro 12 to some degree as our capped players would be protected (until of course the French league got bigger than the HC which could happen).  The additional money that they would then get would go on securing their own talent pools of French and English players which I have no objection with.  However that would basically eradicate any French or English side (with maybe the exception of Tolouse & Leicester) from winning the HC.  That the PRL would never agree too because that would just inflate English playing salaries as well create a real divide between the have's and have not's in the Aviva and would definitely damage the competitiveness of their domestic league.  Wouldn't affect the French as they would likely have 2 squads (one for league & one for HC) anyway.

That said even if all the above points where met, if the Pro 12 where to concede on point 3 to a 33% voting split, the English and French could overturn any of the suggestions I have made anyway so would render those changes mute unless of course these where protected in the original agreement.  Subject to those changes being met (from a Welsh perspective), I would be more than happy to concede all of the points the PRL and French clubs want.

Welshmushroom I already answered you in a previous thread.

1. That's something you'll never get the French to agree to. Would be ideal if they went down to something like 6m but I doubt they will.

The English - well we won't reduce our cap. We might stay the same for now. The cap isn't really that far off the Pro12 sides.

2.

Non home based player rulings - that's a tough one. What happens if a player is uncapped foreigner but gets capped while at an English or French club? E.g. Duncan Taylor and Rhys Gill who play for Sarries. If these clubs make them good enough to be picked for their national side surely they should be exempt? One was plying his trade at Bedford, the other not getting opportunities in Wales - should the club get punished for that?

Brown playing for Sarries does not harm him at all in my opinion.

[munkian]

Is this all getting very much like when the RFU(?) tried to sell the Tv rights of the 5/6Ns to Sky and all the other unions told them to jog on ?

[TJ]

Salery caps - all the extra money for the prl teams would enable them to lift the salary cap - maybe to nearer the french. No extra money for the others would not enable them to match spending -advantage prl again?

[LordDowlais]

Is this all getting very much like when the RFU(?)  tried to sell the Tv rights of the 5/6Ns to Sky and all the other unions told them to jog on ?

Exactly, they wanted all the money from sky, but the other unions said that the same audience would be watching us as well, let us have some, the RFU said no, so the Unions decided they would not invite them to play in the Six Nations and the RFU said ok we will go and play in the Tri Nations, and the Tri Nations said no as well and the rest is history.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

I fear for the six nations ultimatley, if the richer clubs and the PRL can do this now, what is to stop them making the same argument when they have finished this one about the six nations, the bigger population the wider audience, we want more money because of this ect...ect...  This will never go away as there is too much greed, the whole of the rugby world could will end up feeling the affects of this.

This is a landmark moment in the sport, allow the PRL to bully all around them and allow money to dictate every inch of the game, including the downfall of the 6N, and world cup, or to close the door on the greedy power hungry and to stand for what rugby is all about not just on the pitch on sunday mornings but at the highest level of the sport.

+1:clap: 

the anti-english sentiment on here is a bit depressing. can everyone please remember that LNR started this process off, and has been in lockstep with PRL since.

Look I am far from anti-English, believe me, I do not like it when somebody casts aspersions without even knowing me, look at what the clubs in France are doing to their national team, is this what the English want ? Because this is what will happen. Also, could you please tell me where does this stop ? Firsts the HC, then the same argument could be made for the six nations, how long before the PRL and the clubs are running their own league ? Heck, what's the point in having a union at all.

comment not directed at you specifically. 95% of all posts which rail, rail only about the PRL. it's too easy, and is inaccurate.

[TJ]

Very much so munkian - and look who had to back down?

[HammerofThunor]

I fear for the six nations ultimatley, if the richer clubs and the PRL can do this now, what is to stop them making the same argument when they have finished this one about the six nations, the bigger population the wider audience, we want more money because of this ect...ect...  This will never go away as there is too much greed, the whole of the rugby world could will end up feeling the affects of this.

This is a landmark moment in the sport, allow the PRL to bully all around them and allow money to dictate every inch of the game, including the downfall of the 6N, and world cup, or to close the door on the greedy power hungry and to stand for what rugby is all about not just on the pitch on sunday mornings but at the highest level of the sport.

Actually no. The landmark was when the PRO12 collective decided to split the TV money by how much each region generated. So the WRU gets the lion's share as BBCW pays the most. SRU get the least as BBCS pays the least. The Italians have been told to sort themselves out. The Italians are also getting nothing for the Sky deal.

THAT was the landmark move in unequal distribution of wealth (according to posters on here). But strangely nothing much is said. I wonder if that's because the people mouthing off at the moment about equal shares, and greed clubs, are the ones benefiting from this? Or maybe because it's not worth as much money?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Is this all getting very much like when the RFU(?)  tried to sell the Tv rights of the 5/6Ns to Sky and all the other unions told them to jog on ?

Exactly, they wanted all the money from sky, but the other unions said that the same audience would be watching us as well, let us have some, the RFU said no,  so the Unions decided they would not invite them to play in the Six Nations and the RFU said ok we will go and play in the Tri Nations, and the Tri Nations said no as well and the rest is history.

no, that was all between Unions in International Rugby. this is between clubs of 2 nations and unions of 4 others in european club rugby. totally different dynamic. different rules. different spheres of competition.

[Poorfour]

TJ you say the PRL will be the losers. That's hubris. You don't know that for certain.

You seem to overestimate the importance of the Pro12 countries in the HC. You seem to think that they are more important than the English and French. Your hubris will be your downfall.

6,6,8 would be my offer.

beshocked, on the contrary, I think that TJ is pointing out that nobody gets a 'European' competition without representation from all the major European exponents of rugby?  So a Celto-Italian competition without the FrAnglos is no more European than a FrAnglo competition without the Celto-Italians, and for either side to believe otherwise is, in my view, very foolish

Technically, yes. But at this horse-trading stage of the game, what matters is who has something saleable. The PRL and LNR have something that will bring in money, but can they get the RFU and FFR (and thus the IRB) to sanction it? The Pro12 nations already have the blessing of the IRB, but can they generate enough money on their own to be viable? And who can most afford to walk away?

[LordDowlais]

Is this all getting very much like when the RFU(?)  tried to sell the Tv rights of the 5/6Ns to Sky and all the other unions told them to jog on ?

Exactly, they wanted all the money from sky, but the other unions said that the same audience would be watching us as well, let us have some, the RFU said no,  so the Unions decided they would not invite them to play in the Six Nations and the RFU said ok we will go and play in the Tri Nations, and the Tri Nations said no as well and the rest is history.

no, that was all between Unions in International Rugby. this is between clubs of 2 nations and unions of 4 others in european club rugby. totally different dynamic. different rules. different spheres of competition.

The same end game though. 

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Is this all getting very much like when the RFU(?)  tried to sell the Tv rights of the 5/6Ns to Sky and all the other unions told them to jog on ?

Exactly, they wanted all the money from sky, but the other unions said that the same audience would be watching us as well, let us have some, the RFU said no,  so the Unions decided they would not invite them to play in the Six Nations and the RFU said ok we will go and play in the Tri Nations, and the Tri Nations said no as well and the rest is history.

no, that was all between Unions in International Rugby. this is between clubs of 2 nations and unions of 4 others in european club rugby. totally different dynamic. different rules. different spheres of competition.

The same end game though. 

you hope

[HammerofThunor]

Wasn't the outcome of that the RFU get a larger share of the BBC TV pot? Pretty sure it was.

[beshocked]

Poorfour I think the RFU will back the PRL, not so sure about the FFR.

[HammerofThunor]

And in fact isn't this what the clubs are doing? We can't 'make' you do what we want so we'll leave the competition and form our own (that is what the other nations decided to do). The PRL and LNR are just taking a leaf out of their book.

[TJ]

The PRL and LNR do not have something worth very much. a franglo cup that we all know would not be taken very seriously. ( previous experience of the french)

Seriously what would that be worth? 1/10 of the European cup? the Rabo teams as they would have the blessing of the IRB would be able to build something at least marginally interesting - Rabo teams plus Georgia / Spain / Romania etc?

I would be fairly sure anyway if it all breaks down the French clubs would rather end up in a european cup without the English than a franglo cup that would be very much a second best option.

all sides would be diminished by the loss of a real European cup but the PRL do not hold all the cards here either. Infact their whole deal is in jeopardy as they have no European cup to sell to BT

[Guest]

itsallabouttheincentives -" guesswork yes, given all the data i have. exaggerated no. it's just that you don't like my guesswork. if it's what i believe how can it be exaggerated? i have specialised professionally for 20 years in negotiation strategies and this is just the way it appears from the outside. sorry if you dont like my opinion. doesnt mean its not valid, and doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. equally it may well not. we shall soon find out."

So you agree you are guessing. Without knowing all the facts we all are to varying degrees.

It may be considered exaggerated if you hold that all PRL troubles, financially, will be provided for by the signing of a contract which you do not know the details of, but have the basis of your assertion in guesswork only. 

I don't either like, or dislike, your opinion. The only point I was making is that you appear to be putting a lot of faith in your guesswork, and your guesswork is based on very little factual information.

[TJ]

I fear for the six nations ultimatley, if the richer clubs and the PRL can do this now, what is to stop them making the same argument when they have finished this one about the six nations, the bigger population the wider audience, we want more money because of this ect...ect...  This will never go away as there is too much greed, the whole of the rugby world could will end up feeling the affects of this.

This is a landmark moment in the sport, allow the PRL to bully all around them and allow money to dictate every inch of the game, including the downfall of the 6N, and world cup, or to close the door on the greedy power hungry and to stand for what rugby is all about not just on the pitch on sunday mornings but at the highest level of the sport.

Actually no. The landmark was when the PRO12 collective decided to split the TV money by how much each region generated. So the WRU gets the lion's share as BBCW pays the most. SRU get the least as BBCS pays the least. The Italians have been told to sort themselves out. The Italians are also getting nothing for the Sky deal.

THAT was the landmark move in unequal distribution of wealth (according to posters on here). But strangely nothing much is said. I wonder if that's because the people mouthing off at the moment about equal shares, and greed clubs, are the ones benefiting from this? Or maybe because it's not worth as much money?

Hammer - I am a scots fan and have no real issue with the TV deal - bar wishing BBC ( really the EBC) would buy the rabo games for mainstream not Alba

[itsallabouttheincentives]

itsallabouttheincentives -" guesswork yes, given all the data i have. exaggerated no. it's just that you don't like my guesswork. if it's what i believe how can it be exaggerated? i have specialised professionally for 20 years in negotiation strategies and this is just the way it appears from the outside. sorry if you dont like my opinion. doesnt mean its not valid, and doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. equally it may well not. we shall soon find out."

So you agree you are guessing. Without knowing all the facts we all are to varying degrees.

It may be considered exaggerated if you hold that all PRL troubles, financially, will be provided for by the signing of a contract which you do not know the details of, but have the basis of your assertion in guesswork only. 

I don't either like, or dislike, your opinion. The only point I was making is that you appear to be putting a lot of faith in your guesswork, and your guesswork is based on very little factual information.

to be fair munchkin, no-one has all the facts, not even ERC. No-one has been disclosed the commercial terms of PRL's deal with BT, nor will they while ERC is in contract with SKY - that would be considered a breach of confidential contract infromation and therefore commecially sensitive. so the celtic unions, in their decision to play hardball with PRL, are in no better position than me to assess how strong PRL's position is.

the difference being i am debating it on a website, they are playing high stakes russian roulette, and we both have the same information at this point - who is being more reckless?

[munkian]

Won't somebody please think about BOD ?

[Portnoy's Complaint]

itsallabouttheincentives -" guesswork yes, given all the data i have. exaggerated no. it's just that you don't like my guesswork. if it's what i believe how can it be exaggerated? i have specialised professionally for 20 years in negotiation strategies and this is just the way it appears from the outside. sorry if you dont like my opinion. doesnt mean its not valid, and doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. equally it may well not. we shall soon find out."

So you agree you are guessing. Without knowing all the facts we all are to varying degrees.

It may be considered exaggerated if you hold that all PRL troubles, financially, will be provided for by the signing of a contract which you do not know the details of, but have the basis of your assertion in guesswork only. 

I don't either like, or dislike, your opinion. The only point I was making is that you appear to be putting a lot of faith in your guesswork, and your guesswork is based on very little factual information.

to be fair munchkin, no-one has all the facts, not even ERC. No-one has been disclosed the commercial terms of PRL's deal with BT, nor will they while ERC is in contract with SKY - that would be considered a breach of confidential contract infromation and therefore commecially sensitive. so the celtic unions, in their decision to play hardball with PRL, are in no better position than me to assess how strong PRL's position is.

the difference being i am debating it on a website, they are playing high stakes russian roulette, and we both have the same information at this point - who is being more reckless?

playing high stakes russian roulette

 Cripes what's that?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

itsallabouttheincentives -" guesswork yes, given all the data i have. exaggerated no. it's just that you don't like my guesswork. if it's what i believe how can it be exaggerated? i have specialised professionally for 20 years in negotiation strategies and this is just the way it appears from the outside. sorry if you dont like my opinion. doesnt mean its not valid, and doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. equally it may well not. we shall soon find out."

So you agree you are guessing. Without knowing all the facts we all are to varying degrees.

It may be considered exaggerated if you hold that all PRL troubles, financially, will be provided for by the signing of a contract which you do not know the details of, but have the basis of your assertion in guesswork only. 

I don't either like, or dislike, your opinion. The only point I was making is that you appear to be putting a lot of faith in your guesswork, and your guesswork is based on very little factual information.

to be fair munchkin, no-one has all the facts, not even ERC. No-one has been disclosed the commercial terms of PRL's deal with BT, nor will they while ERC is in contract with SKY - that would be considered a breach of confidential contract infromation and therefore commecially sensitive. so the celtic unions, in their decision to play hardball with PRL, are in no better position than me to assess how strong PRL's position is.

the difference being i am debating it on a website, they are playing high stakes russian roulette, and we both have the same information at this point - who is being more reckless?

playing high stakes russian roulette

 Cripes what's that?

where if you get the one with the bullet in it wipes out your whole team not just you

[Portnoy's Complaint]

itsallabouttheincentives -" guesswork yes, given all the data i have. exaggerated no. it's just that you don't like my guesswork. if it's what i believe how can it be exaggerated? i have specialised professionally for 20 years in negotiation strategies and this is just the way it appears from the outside. sorry if you dont like my opinion. doesnt mean its not valid, and doesnt mean it isnt going to happen. equally it may well not. we shall soon find out."

So you agree you are guessing. Without knowing all the facts we all are to varying degrees.

It may be considered exaggerated if you hold that all PRL troubles, financially, will be provided for by the signing of a contract which you do not know the details of, but have the basis of your assertion in guesswork only. 

I don't either like, or dislike, your opinion. The only point I was making is that you appear to be putting a lot of faith in your guesswork, and your guesswork is based on very little factual information.

to be fair munchkin, no-one has all the facts, not even ERC. No-one has been disclosed the commercial terms of PRL's deal with BT, nor will they while ERC is in contract with SKY - that would be considered a breach of confidential contract infromation and therefore commecially sensitive. so the celtic unions, in their decision to play hardball with PRL, are in no better position than me to assess how strong PRL's position is.

the difference being i am debating it on a website, they are playing high stakes russian roulette, and we both have the same information at this point - who is being more reckless?

playing high stakes russian roulette

 Cripes what's that?

where if you get the one with the bullet in it wipes out your whole team not just you

I think that power-crazed politicians and financiers prefer the term justifiable genocide.

Aye. That's the game that's being played it seems. I'm really worried about the PRL now. They appear to really have gone all loose cannon over a basically (imo) correct principle. They have a winning hand but they shouldn't bankrupt the other players otherwise there's no game.

[Poorfour]

The PRL and LNR do not have something worth very much.  a franglo cup that we all know would not be taken very seriously. ( previous experience of the french)

Seriously what would that be worth? 1/10 of the European cup?  the Rabo teams as they would have the blessing of the IRB would be able to build something at least marginally interesting - Rabo teams plus Georgia / Spain / Romania etc?

I would be fairly sure anyway if it all breaks down the French clubs would rather end up in a european cup without the English than a franglo cup that would be very much a second best option.

all sides would be diminished by the loss of a real European cup but the PRL do not hold all the cards here either.  Infact their whole deal is in jeopardy as they have no European cup to sell to BT

What previous experience? If you mean the Amlin, then it's hardly an apt comparison.

1/10th of the value? Seriously? 90% of the value comes from what? The sprinkling of magic leprechaun dust that only the Rabo can bring? Yes, there's added interest for having additional teams or countries involved, especially the Irish, but most of the interest is in watching a team playing someone outside the run of the mill. If the English and French fully commit to a tournament that only features the two of them, it could still be a fantastic spectacle. And more importantly, from a tv perspective it's the two biggest markets. You are not going to see a 90% reduction in English and French viewers just because the Pro12 teams are off doing a Rabo cup.

[TJ]

What ius it worth then - an awful lot less than a European cup thats for sure. The extra value comes from having all those exciting match ups of clubs that don't play each other to often. Bath / Leinster, Saracens / Munster. those sort of fixtures are what makes the cup.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

The PRL and LNR do not have something worth very much.  a franglo cup that we all know would not be taken very seriously. ( previous experience of the french)

Seriously what would that be worth? 1/10 of the European cup?  the Rabo teams as they would have the blessing of the IRB would be able to build something at least marginally interesting - Rabo teams plus Georgia / Spain / Romania etc?

I would be fairly sure anyway if it all breaks down the French clubs would rather end up in a european cup without the English than a franglo cup that would be very much a second best option.

all sides would be diminished by the loss of a real European cup but the PRL do not hold all the cards here either.  Infact their whole deal is in jeopardy as they have no European cup to sell to BT

What previous experience? If you mean the Amlin, then it's hardly an apt comparison.

1/10th of the value? Seriously? 90% of the value comes from what? The sprinkling of magic leprechaun dust that only the Rabo can bring? Yes, there's added interest for having additional teams or countries involved, especially the Irish, but most of the interest is in watching a team playing someone outside the run of the mill. If the English and French fully commit to a tournament that only features the two of them, it could still be a fantastic spectacle. And more importantly, from a tv perspective it's the two biggest markets. You are not going to see a 90% reduction in English and French viewers just because the Pro12 teams are off doing a Rabo cup.

absolutely right. no point debating this with TJ unfortunately, he already believe what he wants to believe, based on what he hopes will happen, rather than any objective appraisal of acutal or potential value of matches/audiences/tv rights/leagues/etc/etc...

[broadlandboy]

But it is worth more than they are actually getting now

[itsallabouttheincentives]

But it is worth more than they are actually getting now

probably true. at least there wouldnt be any "makeweight" waste-of-time matches which are a huge turnoff to the viewing public. top 6 in france vs top 6 in england, winner take all. i would rather have a proper elite pan-european club competition, but that doesnt sound too shabby if we cant have the HC to me!

[Casartelli]

The PRL and LNR do not have something worth very much.  a franglo cup that we all know would not be taken very seriously. ( previous experience of the french)

Seriously what would that be worth? 1/10 of the European cup?  the Rabo teams as they would have the blessing of the IRB would be able to build something at least marginally interesting - Rabo teams plus Georgia / Spain / Romania etc?

I would be fairly sure anyway if it all breaks down the French clubs would rather end up in a european cup without the English than a franglo cup that would be very much a second best option.

all sides would be diminished by the loss of a real European cup but the PRL do not hold all the cards here either.  Infact their whole deal is in jeopardy as they have no European cup to sell to BT

What previous experience? If you mean the Amlin, then it's hardly an apt comparison.

1/10th of the value? Seriously? 90% of the value comes from what? The sprinkling of magic leprechaun dust that only the Rabo can bring? Yes, there's added interest for having additional teams or countries involved, especially the Irish, but most of the interest is in watching a team playing someone outside the run of the mill. If the English and French fully commit to a tournament that only features the two of them, it could still be a fantastic spectacle...............

It couldn't. Juggernaut teams smashing it up route one for 80+ mins? It will be indiscernible from the present English league, save for some fancy new kits. Not knocking the tactics, they can be brutally effective as England discovered in the 6N, but a 'fantastic spectacle'???

Afraid not.

[TJ]

And you all know the french would not take it seriously. It would be a decent competition but distinctly second best to the HC and thus worth a lot less.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

And you all know the french would not take it seriously.  It would be a decent competition but distinctly second best to the HC and thus worth a lot less.

problem is, if there is an anglo-french winner take all comp, there will be no HC.

HC ceases to exist next summer. In order to continue all participants need to re-sign, as opposed to resign which is what PRL, LNR have done.

[TJ]

Even if there is a franglo breakaway which given the stance of the french union is very unlikely this does not preclude another European cup - and a Rabo + cup contest could be interesting. ~Could have some english and french teams from below the top division. maybe Georgia romania and spain.

The key point is the PRL need the Rabo nations as much as the Rabo nations need the english clubs

[malky1963]

But it is worth more than they are actually getting now

probably true. at least there wouldnt be any "makeweight" waste-of-time matches which are a huge turnoff to the viewing public. top 6 in france vs top 6 in england, winner take all. i would rather have a proper elite pan-european club competition, but that doesnt sound too shabby if we cant have the HC to me!

I wonder when the other 6 in the PRL and the other 8 in LNR will catch on to this - do they really think that, say, Saracens have some sort of altruistic concern for Newcastle or London Irish in the long run. The new competition will have to be re-negotiated at some future date - guess what the arguments will be then on the split of the cash.

[Casartelli]

And you all know the french would not take it seriously.  It would be a decent competition but distinctly second best to the HC and thus worth a lot less.

problem is, if there is an anglo-french winner take all comp, there will be no HC.

HC ceases to exist next summer. In order to continue all participants need to re-sign, as opposed to resign which is what PRL, LNR have done.

"Winner take all comp". All of what?

Do they still have that thing in soccer, the Charity Shield, or whatever it used to be called?

[TJ]

And a knockout tournament of 12 clubs makes for many less games that the current HC / Amilin. It simply will be worth an awful lot less

[itsallabouttheincentives]

And you all know the french would not take it seriously.  It would be a decent competition but distinctly second best to the HC and thus worth a lot less.

problem is, if there is an anglo-french winner take all comp, there will be no HC.

HC ceases to exist next summer. In order to continue all participants need to re-sign, as opposed to resign which is what PRL, LNR have done.

"Winner take all comp".  All of what?

Do they still have that thing in soccer, the Charity Shield, or whatever it used to be called?

"winner take all" is just a phrase, like "champions league". meaningless, but good for marketing. does sound good though!

interesting interview on rte here. lenihan and horgan are harping on about idealistic nice-to-haves (like the HC being a developmental competition?!?) which will carry no water in the professional era, and both o'shea and the commentator call them on it.

clearly everyone wants a european competition, but the reality is some NEED it more than others so have to give more in negotiations or they will suffer the fallout.

arggghh. website wont let me post the youtube rte video. anyway its easily found on youtube...type rte video heineken cup

[Poorfour]

But it is worth more than they are actually getting now

probably true. at least there wouldnt be any "makeweight" waste-of-time matches which are a huge turnoff to the viewing public. top 6 in france vs top 6 in england, winner take all. i would rather have a proper elite pan-european club competition, but that doesnt sound too shabby if we cant have the HC to me!

I wonder when the other 6 in the PRL and the other 8 in LNR will catch on to this - do they really think that, say, Saracens have some sort of altruistic concern for Newcastle or London Irish in the long run. The new competition will have to be re-negotiated at some future date - guess what the arguments will be then on the split of the cash.

No, they don't have an altruistic concern. They have an entirely selfish concern for the smaller clubs. League rugby is the bread and butter for any professional team. You need around 12 clubs to make a viable league; lose even 1 home gate and it's a sizeable hole in the finances (which is why the LV cup has that odd pool vs pool structure - it ensures two home games for everyone). That means having at least 11 other clubs who have enough cash to stay in the fight and be competitive (less competition = predictable results = dull league = less money in the long run).

The majority of what the PRL does is geared towards achieving this, because much as the clubs all want to be more successful than each other, they all know (with the intermittent exception of Leicester, who like to think about competing with the French from time to time) that they need strong competition. That's why an absolute salary cap (and not one based on turnover). That's why payments are smoothed out between clubs. That's why ringfencing is occasionally discussed (to give the weaker clubs the stability that would let them get stronger). That's why the PRL wants European competition revenue shared across all clubs, not just the top tier. It's why the AP is one of the most closely contested sporting leagues anywhere.

I don't expect you to agree with me about what they want to achieve in Europe, but I hope that if you stop and think through what I've written above you will understand some of the PRL's motivation better. A lot of their actions are motivated by the need to keep 12 competitive clubs in England. They are not trying to "maximise profits" or "control rugby" as some people have suggested. The focus is on reaching a point where most of the clubs breakeven or make a small profit and having enough control of the competitions they are in that they don't get legged over by the other parties. At the moment, they see a differential in revenue between the Pro 12 clubs and themselves that would in most cases get them to breakeven - and they have insufficient control to fix that.

[malky1963]

And a knockout tournament of 12 clubs makes for many less games that the current HC / Amilin.  It simply will be worth an awful lot less

It will also very quickly get, frankly, quite boring - the same few teams will be in last 8 on a regular basis.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

And a knockout tournament of 12 clubs makes for many less games that the current HC / Amilin.  It simply will be worth an awful lot less

It will also very quickly get, frankly, quite boring - the same few teams will be in last 8 on a regular basis.

boring for you. i would quite enjoy watching the biggest, best teams in Europe (over the long term without automatic qualification to HC!) battle it our on a regular, fair basis where they all also have to compete in an incredibly fierce domestic competition.

PRL and LNR club matches are so well-watched because they are generally close and feature very strong players. Rabo, less so.

[malky1963]

And a knockout tournament of 12 clubs makes for many less games that the current HC / Amilin.  It simply will be worth an awful lot less

It will also very quickly get, frankly, quite boring - the same few teams will be in last 8 on a regular basis.

boring for you. i would quite enjoy watching the biggest, best teams in Europe (over the long term without automatic qualification to HC!) battle it our on a regular, fair basis where they all also have to compete in an incredibly fierce domestic competition.

PRL and LNR club matches are so well-watched because they are generally close and feature very strong players. Rabo, less so.

The bold bit suggests that you agree with the worst fears of Celtic/Italian rugby fans that in a few years we will no longer have a team (like for example Leinster) regarded as one of the best in Europe.
I am afraid I can't understand how you and your fellow PRL cheerleaders see this as a good thing in the long term - I wonder what the revenues for the Rugby League World Cup are compared to RWC.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

which is why the LV cup has that odd pool vs pool structure - it ensures two home games for everyone)

You learn something every day. I thought it was a homage to the engine designer of the 2cv.

[TJ]

boring for you. i would quite enjoy watching the biggest, best teams in Europe (over the long term without automatic qualification to HC!) battle it our on a regular, fair basis where they all also have to compete in an incredibly fierce domestic competition.

Biggest best teams - without all those recent HC winners that will not be there? Its like having a WC without the SH sides :-)

[itsallabouttheincentives]

And a knockout tournament of 12 clubs makes for many less games that the current HC / Amilin.  It simply will be worth an awful lot less

It will also very quickly get, frankly, quite boring - the same few teams will be in last 8 on a regular basis.

boring for you. i would quite enjoy watching the biggest, best teams in Europe (over the long term without automatic qualification to HC!) battle it our on a regular, fair basis where they all also have to compete in an incredibly fierce domestic competition.

PRL and LNR club matches are so well-watched because they are generally close and feature very strong players. Rabo, less so.

The bold bit suggests that you agree with the worst fears of Celtic/Italian rugby fans that in a few years we will no longer have a team (like for example Leinster) regarded as one of the best in Europe.
I am afraid I can't understand how you and your fellow PRL cheerleaders see this as a good thing in the long term - I wonder what the revenues for the Rugby League World Cup are compared to RWC.

why should club rugby have anything to do with international rugby? if you want to wave the nationalistic flag, then don't hire foreign players. if you want to be able to hire foreign players, and wave the club flag, then don't cry when someone has more money than you. that has ever been the way of the world - even in the amateur game when certain clubs arranged jobs for players etc.

i would be very happy to see the best welsh players play in the toughest league in france, confident that they will be awesomely prepared for world cup rugby with the right team prep before the tournament.

[malky1963]

But it is worth more than they are actually getting now

probably true. at least there wouldnt be any "makeweight" waste-of-time matches which are a huge turnoff to the viewing public. top 6 in france vs top 6 in england, winner take all. i would rather have a proper elite pan-european club competition, but that doesnt sound too shabby if we cant have the HC to me!

I wonder when the other 6 in the PRL and the other 8 in LNR will catch on to this - do they really think that, say, Saracens have some sort of altruistic concern for Newcastle or London Irish in the long run. The new competition will have to be re-negotiated at some future date - guess what the arguments will be then on the split of the cash.

No, they don't have an altruistic concern. They have an entirely selfish concern for the smaller clubs. League rugby is the bread and butter for any professional team. You need around 12 clubs to make a viable league; lose even 1 home gate and it's a sizeable hole in the finances (which is why the LV cup has that odd pool vs pool structure - it ensures two home games for everyone). That means having at least 11 other clubs who have enough cash to stay in the fight and be competitive (less competition = predictable results = dull league = less money in the long run).

The majority of what the PRL does is geared towards achieving this, because much as the clubs all want to be more successful than each other, they all know (with the intermittent exception of Leicester, who like to think about competing with the French from time to time) that they need strong competition. That's why an absolute salary cap (and not one based on turnover). That's why payments are smoothed out between clubs. That's why ringfencing is occasionally discussed (to give the weaker clubs the stability that would let them get stronger). That's why the PRL wants European competition revenue shared across all clubs, not just the top tier. It's why the AP is one of the most closely contested sporting leagues anywhere.

I don't expect you to agree with me about what they want to achieve in Europe, but I hope that if you stop and think through what I've written above you will understand some of the PRL's motivation better. A lot of their actions are motivated by the need to keep 12 competitive clubs in England. They are not trying to "maximise profits" or "control rugby" as some people have suggested. The focus is on reaching a point where most of the clubs breakeven or make a small profit and having enough control of the competitions they are in that they don't get legged over by the other parties. At the moment, they see a differential in revenue between the Pro 12 clubs and themselves that would in most cases get them to breakeven - and they have insufficient control to fix that.

I appreciate what you say and I understand (although I think it is short-sighted) that PRL is only concerned with its members.
I would argue that that is a very good reason why they cannot be allowed to have joint control with LNR over European club rugby.

[malky1963]

And a knockout tournament of 12 clubs makes for many less games that the current HC / Amilin.  It simply will be worth an awful lot less

It will also very quickly get, frankly, quite boring - the same few teams will be in last 8 on a regular basis.

boring for you. i would quite enjoy watching the biggest, best teams in Europe (over the long term without automatic qualification to HC!) battle it our on a regular, fair basis where they all also have to compete in an incredibly fierce domestic competition.

PRL and LNR club matches are so well-watched because they are generally close and feature very strong players. Rabo, less so.

The bold bit suggests that you agree with the worst fears of Celtic/Italian rugby fans that in a few years we will no longer have a team (like for example Leinster) regarded as one of the best in Europe.
I am afraid I can't understand how you and your fellow PRL cheerleaders see this as a good thing in the long term - I wonder what the revenues for the Rugby League World Cup are compared to RWC.

why should club rugby have anything to do with international rugby? if you want to wave the nationalistic flag, then don't hire foreign players. if you want to be able to hire foreign players, and wave the club flag, then don't cry when someone has more money than you. that has ever been the way of the world - even in the amateur game when certain clubs arranged jobs for players etc.

i would be very happy to see the best welsh players play in the toughest league in france, confident that they will be awesomely prepared for world cup rugby with the right team prep before the tournament.

We 'hire' relatively few foreign players and if we do take any on they are usually capable of playing for Scotland in 3 years under the residence rules.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

And a knockout tournament of 12 clubs makes for many less games that the current HC / Amilin.  It simply will be worth an awful lot less

It will also very quickly get, frankly, quite boring - the same few teams will be in last 8 on a regular basis.

boring for you. i would quite enjoy watching the biggest, best teams in Europe (over the long term without automatic qualification to HC!) battle it our on a regular, fair basis where they all also have to compete in an incredibly fierce domestic competition.

PRL and LNR club matches are so well-watched because they are generally close and feature very strong players. Rabo, less so.

The bold bit suggests that you agree with the worst fears of Celtic/Italian rugby fans that in a few years we will no longer have a team (like for example Leinster) regarded as one of the best in Europe.
I am afraid I can't understand how you and your fellow PRL cheerleaders see this as a good thing in the long term - I wonder what the revenues for the Rugby League World Cup are compared to RWC.

why should club rugby have anything to do with international rugby? if you want to wave the nationalistic flag, then don't hire foreign players. if you want to be able to hire foreign players, and wave the club flag, then don't cry when someone has more money than you. that has ever been the way of the world - even in the amateur game when certain clubs arranged jobs for players etc.

i would be very happy to see the best welsh players play in the toughest league in france, confident that they will be awesomely prepared for world cup rugby with the right team prep before the tournament.

We 'hire' relatively few foreign players and if we do take any on they are usually capable of playing for Scotland in 3 years under the residence rules.

oh well thats alright then. but why should your club teams get subsidised by LNR/PRL club teams to help build your national team. this is the whole problem. you have just claimed as a counter-point, the thing that really irritates PRL/LNR. what are nationa team/union agenda doing in a freaking club competition? and ok fine if it is viewed as a proxy nationalistic tournament, but then no way on earth should commercially run clubs subsidise it - let the SRU drive that process.

[TJ]

Treh simple point is our club teams are not subsidised by the PRL. we gain money from various international competitions and use this to run our teams. Once again - the PRL / LNR do not create the wealth - The European cup is the product sold. How much is a franglo cup ( not that it will happen)_ be worth compared to a European cup?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Treh simple point is our club teams are not subsidised by the PRL.  we gain money from various international competitions and use this to run our teams.  Once again - the PRL / LNR do not create the wealth - The European cup is the product sold.  How much is a franglo cup ( not that it will happen)_ be worth compared to a European cup?

your qn is hypothetical because if there is a franglo cup then the rest would not be a euro cup it would be a rabo cup with a different title. ie another Rabo club competition in the same year in a different format. and i'll tell you exactly how much that will be worth, absolutely nothing, zero.

and i dont think i'm making too much of a stretch to say that a franglo cup as you call it would be worth an awful lot more than nothing.

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Treh simple point is our club teams are not subsidised by the PRL.  we gain money from various international competitions and use this to run our teams.  Once again - the PRL / LNR do not create the wealth - The European cup is the product sold.  How much is a franglo cup ( not that it will happen)_ be worth compared to a European cup?

By the simple mechanism of talking to more than one TV company, it seems that PRL have uncovered a fair whack of wealth potentially available for central distribution. Some may consider that as creating wealth.

[madmaccas]

Ok I should start off by saying I don't think this has anything to do with equal qualification or even money - this entire circus is about control. The clubs want it and the unions have it.

However, let's just say it were about money as the PRL claim. If all the clubs and provinces sign up to the BT deal will it improve the finances of those clubs? Everyone's getting richer right so what's the problem?!

Tell me, what will those clubs do with their new found riches? Invest in new stadia? Bring down the cost of tickets? Nope and nope.

They'll do 2 things.

1) Buy more players and pay them more. This will drive up the cost of your average player, which will in turn create even more competition to sign the cream of the crop. No new players will be magically created, they'll just be paid a lot more (as we have been seeing in France for the past 10 yrs). The Aviva may have a salary cap for now but without the RFU enforcing the comp there's nothing stopping them blowing it wide open and creating hyper inflation in the sport.

2) If there's any money left over after the clubs have finished driving the price of players up, it will go straight into the owners pockets. A lot of the commentary around this issue has focussed on the poor old sugar daddies who have been making a loss in the English game for decades now - the implication being that they're overdue a payday.

Now the problem with these 2 points is that we'll effectively create a football landscape where crazy amounts being paid for players and a few big clubs making a profit for their owners at the expense of the poorer clubs who go to the wall. Fundamentally nothing will change except an extra zero or two on a player's salary. Meanwhile the international game will suffer, smaller nations will suffer because their unions can't keep up with rich club owners the game will become further and further removed from its origins.

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