Merged thread euro competition

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Apparently there's a meeting today of two mighty behemoths of the English game meet to (presumably) find a common position on the wreckage of the negotiations on the future of European competition.

It will be interesting if they come to any clear (I doubt that it will be satisfactory) conclusion.

This, remember, is a discussion between two spectacularly incompetent bodies which have presided over farcical maladministration over the past decade.

The RFU, standard bearers of the ideals and ethos of the famed 57 Old Farts, have stumbled and staggered their way 'forward' since the dawn of professionalism.
vs
The PRL who have never managed to provide a satisfactory cohesive, decision which actually improves the English game with a satisfactory watertight, long term 'what if?' structured set of rules. They in their short history have represented solely the elite game through a seemingly never-ending stream of short-term, knee-jerk decisions which sow the quick-germinating seeds of insoluble and self-contradictory positions for the future. From its inception it has been nothing less than a disaster from the issue of voting shares, through parachute payments to the fundamental process of promotion/relegation itself. Bumbling incompetents.

Unfortunately they (the PRL) have the players and therefore all the cards over the RFU exactly two years before the 2015 RWC starts on English soil.

Grim and depressing innit? Especially for non-combatants.

[maestegmafia]

"The problem is that we are in this situation and the only way to get out is to create this competition (Champions Cup Rugby)."

What is the situation? The situation that the LNRs clubs are increasing their debt every season and have no wish to restrict clubs crazy spending? Not too different in England but the spending is much more in control, but the PRL's clubs are in debt, all but a few make profit year on year.

The PRL and LNR both reluctant to look into why they are in debt and try to recover from it, as has been done within the rest of the Unions in Europe.

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

"Last season, adding in meritocracy  payments based on performance,  the split of revenue was as follows:

France £10.2m, England £9.1m,  Ireland £5.53m, Wales £4.11m,  Scotland £4.11m, Italy £3.86m."

So the English clubs would lose around £750k each from central distribution, but also the income from home games and sponsorship, corporate etc from HC contenders would be reduced - not sure that Amlin in its current form enhances the sponsorship etc, and certainly reduces bums on seats.

the guarantee pre-performance payouts is £400k per english team (in HC and amlin) and £1.2m for zebre for example. see Connor O'Shea (quins director of rugby) explaining the figures on an RTE youtube interview. i cant attach. its on youtube.[/quote]
Furry nuff - we have a discrepancy, and not for the first time in the Euro debate.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

More nonsense.  You need to look into this and learn a bit more about the french set up.
Now you need to put up of shut up.  You claimed th e PRL were the only ones to offer a compromise and the pro 12 would not.  I have given you details of a compromise offered by the pro 12 unions more than a year ago and am still awaiting your response to this and your outlining of all the compromises the PRL have made that have been rejected by the pro 12.

put up or shut up.

maybe you need to have a chat with Goze this time and tell him he cant say what he's said. i'm sure that will get him back to the negotiating table with ERC. i gather your chat with the PRL execs didnt go anywhere

[broadlandboy]

The two tv deals. The PRL/BTSport for English teams if they play cross border comp & the later ERC/Sky dealfor HEC/Amlin

[TJ]

itsallabouttheincentives

You claimed the PRL were the only ones to offer a compromise and the pro 12 would not. I have given you details of a compromise offered by the pro 12 unions more than a year ago and am still awaiting your response to this and your outlining of all the compromises the PRL have made that have been rejected by the pro 12.

answer please- or was it just more of your wishful thinking.

[LondonTiger]

No compromise has actually been offered by either side during any official negotiations.

Oh there have been weasely press statements, but in any meetings it has always been take it or leave it. By both sides.

The closest we came to a deal was when the IRFU hosted a meeting, the only one so far that LNR were officially invited to, that excluded ERC.


Of course once one group, PRL, agreed (but did not sign a contract) to sell home matches to one TV company (something Ireland and France both do) and another, ERC, sold exclusive rights to a competition to a second TV company where they guaranteed the inclusion of English and French clubs, despite them handing in notice to leave --- well we were always in the poo.

[stub]

Two Welsh regions have declared their interest in joining the new Europe under Anglo-French direction from next season.

They are among several teams from the Celtic countries engaged in private talks with the English clubs’ umbrella organization Premier Rugby Ltd – a move which follows last week’s ‘come-and-join-us’ invitation from Saracens chairman Nigel Wray.

PRL chief executive Mark McCafferty confirmed the Welsh move yesterday along with others but refused to name names.

“People have approached us from a number of countries,” he told The Rugby Paper.  “They have asked that those approaches be kept confidential. I don’t think anyone would be surprised by the names of those who have put their feet forward.

“They have obviously come to the view that without the English and French clubs anything which ERC might organise is going to be a less attractive option in their opinion. We have always made it very clear we wish to have teams from other countries involved.”

All four Welsh regions, headed in the European rankings by the Ospreys, the only team to have won the Celtic League four times, are desperate to avoid a crippling financial hit caused by an implosion of ERC.

They say that will cost them £1.5m per region per season, £6m in total.

Organisers of the Anglo-French plan claim they will increase commercial revenue by more than 50 per cent from its current £44m to more than £70m. According to one Premiership source, “everyone gets more money and more meaningful competition”.

Leinster, triple Heineken Cup champions, had already signalled their readiness to consider signing up to the new venture in the event of ERC plans to salvage their tournament going ‘pear-shaped.’ That would bring Leinster and the other three Irish provinces headlong into conflict with the IRFU who hold their contracts.

The Welsh regions are keeping their heads down for fear of provoking a similar row with their Union.

McCafferty revealed the timetable behind the new project. “We have a period of four-to-six weeks in terms of who’s in and who’s not,” he said. “This is not intended as a deadline but we would need to know by November otherwise the goalposts are shifting around.”

That schedule points to the format for next season being drawn up by the time ERC reconvenes on October 23 in a final attempt to salvage their event from the ruins. They will by then have had a report from the mediator, Canadian lawyer Greame Mew who was named on Friday.

McCafferty’s reaction to his appointment indicated that the English clubs see no point in talking to Mew. “We have served notice which comes into effect from the end of the season and we have discharged our obligations,” McCafferty said.

“We have said all along we will not be in an ERC-run competition after this season.  We can only say that so many times.”

Should the declarations of interest from teams in Ireland, Wales and elsewhere lead to active support for the Anglo-French initiative, ERC will face not merely a few cracks in the ceiling but disintegration.

“If people are saying ‘no’ to new competitions, they have to have specific reasons for saying so,” McCafferty said. “No-one has articulated any reason yet.

“If they stop this, there would be no European competition. We have prepared for that.”

PETER JACKSON

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/domestic-club-rugby-union/european-cup/11115/welsh-clubs-in-talks-over-heineken-breakaway/

Having a read round and this looked interesting too. Spin or some basis in fact?

[broadlandboy]

Meas with the PRL/LNR proposalmost PRL teams would become viable finacially

[TJ]

More desparate waffle from the PRL. they keep on trying this tack and its nonsense

[itsallabouttheincentives]

"Last season, adding in meritocracy  payments based on performance,  the split of revenue was as follows:

France £10.2m, England £9.1m,  Ireland £5.53m, Wales £4.11m,  Scotland £4.11m, Italy £3.86m."

So the English clubs would lose around £750k each from central distribution, but also the income from home games and sponsorship, corporate etc from HC contenders would be reduced - not sure that Amlin in its current form enhances the sponsorship etc, and certainly reduces bums on seats.

the guarantee pre-performance payouts is £400k per english team (in HC and amlin) and £1.2m for zebre for example. see Connor O'Shea (quins director of rugby) explaining the figures on an RTE youtube interview. i cant attach. its on youtube.

Furry nuff - we have a discrepancy, and not for the first time in the Euro debate. [/quote]i didnt post the walesonline revenue data. seem to have hijacked another post somehow. apols for that.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

More desparate waffle from the PRL. they keep on trying this tack and its nonsense

evidence?

[TJ]

itsallabouttheincentives

come on - I want to hear what compromises the PRL have offered. You claimed they were the only ones to want to negotiate and the pro 12 have offered nothing - i showed you a proposal more than a year old for a compromise and am still awaiting your outlining of all the compromises the PRL have made

Or is it actually ture the Pro12 have been prepared to negotiate and he prl not?

[TJ]

itsallabouttheincentives

You claimed the PRL were the only ones to offer a compromise and the pro 12 would not. I have given you details of a compromise offered by the pro 12 unions more than a year ago and am still awaiting your response to this and your outlining of all the compromises the PRL have made that have been rejected by the pro 12.

answer please- or was it just more of your wishful thinking.

[LondonTiger]

More desparate waffle from the PRL. they keep on trying this tack and its nonsense

Are you so sure? You are absolutely sure no sides from outside PRL/LNR have had at least informal discussions?

These discussions have happened. Now I cannot see anything occuring as a result, but the talks have happened. Hell the Welsh regions, Irish provinces and PRL/LNR representatives met up in dublin in may, without WRU/RFU/FFR/ERC being present.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

they made a request, their initial one, for 6/6/6+2 i believe. since then PRL have not received a counter-offer, unless you count one rejected by the french at a mtg the PRL were not invited to. since then nobody has moved although lots of ERC claims that they are willing to negotiate after the horse has bolted.

[TJ]

Oh I am sure there has been some contacts - however its totally disingenuous of the PRL mouthpeiece to be saying they will join.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

and just to be clear. 6/6/6+2 was a compromise offer because the alternative proposed by LNR/PRL was withdraw from HC. so 6/6/6+2 is PRL/LNR's compromise offer.

[TJ]

No compromise has actually been offered by either side during any official negotiations.

Oh there have been weasely press statements, but in any meetings it has always been take it or leave it. By both sides.

The closest we came to a deal was when the IRFU hosted a meeting, the only one so far that LNR were officially invited to, that excluded ERC.


Of course once one group, PRL, agreed (but did not sign a contract) to sell home matches to one TV company (something Ireland and France both do) and another, ERC, sold exclusive rights to a competition to a second TV company where they guaranteed the inclusion of English and French clubs, despite them handing in notice to leave --- well we were always in the poo.

actually the 32 team proposal was tabled and discussed in a meeting according to multiple media sources. rejected but it was tabled and discussed

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Oh I am sure there has been some contacts - however its totally disingenuous of the PRL mouthpeiece to be saying they will join.

it would be if he did but he didnt, you did. come on, keep up.

[TJ]

Love sacks - come off it - thats the opening position not a compromise. even more ludicrous that your usual

so come on

itsallabouttheincentives

You claimed the PRL were the only ones to offer a compromise and the pro 12 would not. I have given you details of a compromise offered by the pro 12 unions more than a year ago and am still awaiting your response to this and your outlining of all the compromises the PRL have made that have been rejected by the pro 12.

answer please- or was it just more of your wishful thinking.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

No compromise has actually been offered by either side during any official negotiations.

Oh there have been weasely press statements, but in any meetings it has always been take it or leave it. By both sides.

The closest we came to a deal was when the IRFU hosted a meeting, the only one so far that LNR were officially invited to, that excluded ERC.


Of course once one group, PRL, agreed (but did not sign a contract) to sell home matches to one TV company (something Ireland and France both do) and another, ERC, sold exclusive rights to a competition to a second TV company where they guaranteed the inclusion of English and French clubs, despite them handing in notice to leave --- well we were always in the poo.

actually the 32 team proposal was tabled and discussed in a meeting according to multiple media sources.  rejected but it was tabled and discussed

rejected by france at a meeting PRL was not invited to. that's the compromise offer?

[HammerofThunor]

No compromise has actually been offered by either side during any official negotiations.

Oh there have been weasely press statements, but in any meetings it has always been take it or leave it. By both sides.

The closest we came to a deal was when the IRFU hosted a meeting, the only one so far that LNR were officially invited to, that excluded ERC.


Of course once one group, PRL, agreed (but did not sign a contract) to sell home matches to one TV company (something Ireland and France both do) and another, ERC, sold exclusive rights to a competition to a second TV company where they guaranteed the inclusion of English and French clubs, despite them handing in notice to leave --- well we were always in the poo.

actually the 32 team proposal was tabled and discussed in a meeting according to multiple media sources.  rejected but it was tabled and discussed

But not to all stakeholders. The PRL didn't reject it because they weren't invited.

[LondonTiger]

No he said they would like to join, not they will join.

I agree he should not be discussing things in public, but then neither should ERC mouthpieces.

Yet again both sides have raced to the bottom of the cess pit.

[LondonTiger]

No compromise has actually been offered by either side during any official negotiations.

Oh there have been weasely press statements, but in any meetings it has always been take it or leave it. By both sides.

The closest we came to a deal was when the IRFU hosted a meeting, the only one so far that LNR were officially invited to, that excluded ERC.


Of course once one group, PRL, agreed (but did not sign a contract) to sell home matches to one TV company (something Ireland and France both do) and another, ERC, sold exclusive rights to a competition to a second TV company where they guaranteed the inclusion of English and French clubs, despite them handing in notice to leave --- well we were always in the poo.

actually the 32 team proposal was tabled and discussed in a meeting according to multiple media sources.  rejected but it was tabled and discussed

rejected by france at a meeting PRL was not invited to. that's the compromise offer?

Rejected by FFR actually. Neither LNr nor PRL were at the meeting.

[Tramptastic]

The English and French seemed happy with the set up when they were winning all the time in the early 2000s... apparently the relegation in their leagues and the fight for HC places made them tougher and more likely to win in the knock out stages - at least that was the PR line trotted out at the time. Now however the grind of the PL is seen as detrimental because the English clubs are no longer winning and it's unfair that they aren't winning - clearly taking the ball and crying away hame

[HammerofThunor]

The English and French seemed happy with the set up when they were winning all the time in the early 2000s... apparently the relegation in their leagues and the fight for HC places made them tougher and more likely to win in the knock out stages - at least that was the PR line trotted out at the time. Now however the grind of the PL is seen as detrimental because the English clubs are no longer winning and it's unfair that they aren't winning - clearly taking the ball and crying away hame

You mean like how the threatened to pull out 1999, 2007, and 2013.

This is brought up over and over again and is bull.

[TJ]

correct but Its irrelevant to the point I have been told the PRL will compromise and negotiate the pro 12 will not - utter nonsense - thats one example of a compromise proposal from the pro 12 and I am still awaiting details of any compromise proposal from the PRL

[itsallabouttheincentives]

No compromise has actually been offered by either side during any official negotiations.

Oh there have been weasely press statements, but in any meetings it has always been take it or leave it. By both sides.

The closest we came to a deal was when the IRFU hosted a meeting, the only one so far that LNR were officially invited to, that excluded ERC.


Of course once one group, PRL, agreed (but did not sign a contract) to sell home matches to one TV company (something Ireland and France both do) and another, ERC, sold exclusive rights to a competition to a second TV company where they guaranteed the inclusion of English and French clubs, despite them handing in notice to leave --- well we were always in the poo.

actually the 32 team proposal was tabled and discussed in a meeting according to multiple media sources.  rejected but it was tabled and discussed

rejected by france at a meeting PRL was not invited to. that's the compromise offer?

Rejected by FFR actually. Neither LNr nor PRL were at the meeting.

wierder and wierder!

[TJ]

itsallabouttheincentives

You claimed the PRL were the only ones to offer a compromise and the pro 12 would not. I have given you details of a compromise offered by the pro 12 unions more than a year ago and am still awaiting your response to this and your outlining of all the compromises the PRL have made that have been rejected by the pro 12.

answer please- or was it just more of your wishful thinking.

[broadlandboy]

the 32 team proposalwas rejected by the French at the meeting to which the PRL were not invited to by the ERC, 7 you wonder why PRL/LNR dont trust the ERC

[itsallabouttheincentives]

correct but Its irrelevant to the point  I have been told the PRL will compromise and negotiate the pro 12 will not - utter nonsense - thats one example of a compromise proposal from the pro 12 and I am still awaiting details of any compromise proposal from the PRL

the PRL did compromise. they wanted out, and offered 6/6/6+2 as a compromise. no interest from ERC so out go PRL/LNR

[TJ]

tsallabouttheincentives

Nonsense - just utter bullcrap

I am still awiting an answer that makes sense - or are you addmitting your claims on this are nonsense.

You claimed the PRL were the only ones to offer a compromise and the pro 12 would not. I have given you details of a compromise offered by the pro 12 unions more than a year ago and am still awaiting your response to this and your outlining of all the compromises the PRL have made that have been rejected by the pro 12.

answer please- or was it just more of your wishful thinking.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

the PRL did compromise. they wanted out, and offered 6/6/6+2 as a compromise. no interest from ERC so out go PRL/LNR

[itsallabouttheincentives]

you need to take a deep breath, calm down, and stop spamming these forums chasing me with a question that i have answerd in a way you dont like.

[TJ]

Nonsense - thats not negotiation or compromise. I am still awaiting details of all the good faith compromising the PRL did. are you really claiming their preferred position started off as we are going to leave no matter what is offered? ridiculous.

Now answer the question.

tsallabouttheincentives

You claimed the PRL were the only ones to offer a compromise and the pro 12 would not. I have given you details of a compromise offered by the pro 12 unions more than a year ago and am still awaiting your response to this and your outlining of all the compromises the PRL have made that have been rejected by the pro 12.

answer please- or was it just more of your wishful thinking.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

you need to take a deep breath, calm down, and stop spamming these forums chasing me with a question that i have answerd in a way you dont like

[TJ]

I am awaiting your answer. You claimed the PRL were doing at the compromising and the pro 12 none. I disproved your point by showing several compromises offered by the pro 12 ore than a ear ago and am still awaiting an answer to the question. You refuse to answer apart from claiming the the PRLs starting position was a compromise. You have been caught out spouting nonsense now admit you were wrong or find some compromises the prl have made.

[maestegmafia]

I am awaiting your answer.  You claimed the PRL were doing at the compromising and the pro 12 none.  I disproved your point by showing several compromises offered by the pro 12 ore than a ear ago and am still awaiting an answer to the question. You refuse to answer apart from  claiming the the PRLs starting position was a compromise.  You have been caught out spouting nonsense now admit you were wrong or find some compromises the prl have made.

I agree..!

[TJ]

You need to either find some evidence to back up your assertion the PRL are prepared to compromise.  admit I was right and tht the pro 12 have shown willingness to compromise or you need toaccept that actually the PRL have not compromised at all. Put up or shut up. Yor credibility already low after your ridiculous bet and bragging over your riches is now in tatteres.

come on - we are all agog to know right from the horse mouth what compromises the PRL have made. I have already proved you wrong on the point htt the Pro 12 will compromise.

Put up or shut up

[itsallabouttheincentives]

One last time. Instead of leaving (which process prl/lnr initiated jun2012) prl/lnr offered a solution which would be acceptable - 6/6/6+2. How is that not a compromise offer? On those terms prl/lnr would have been willing to put up with ERC. That's a compromise.

[HammerofThunor]

Just to be clear, the compromise offered by the Pro12 wasn't given to all stakeholders AND didn't address any of the issues over the competition? That's no more a compromise than the PRL and LNR initial suggestions.

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

dubbleyew - but also the players would be exposed to less top flight rugby and we would have less money in relation to the english clubs  How would wasps have coped if they were relegated as well?

Pro12 is top flight rugby, Amlin isn't but it can be comparable to mid/lower league games. On another thread, it was pointed out that Sarries' Amlin pool 3 seasons ago included Toulon and Castres - the following season Sarries were English champions and now Castres are French champions and Toulon are European champions. (I don't ascribe their subsequent success entirely to the Amlin, but it didn't seem to harm them significantly)

If Wasps were relegated, they probably would have folded due to lack of money. Newcastle were relegated and are now back in Prem, thanks to financial support from their owner (and the parachute payment). Relegation is a far graver matter to the team in every respect than the position that Glasgow and Edinburgh might find themselves in with the PRL proposals, but it's only one team out of 12 so the overall consequences to England are mitigated.

Dub, that's an interesting point - so the fact that Sarries are backed by the millions of Wray and his South African chums, and that Toulon are bank-rolled to a colllossal sum by Monsieur Boudjellal (sp?), had nothing to do with their subsequent success, it was all down to their Amlin stint?!?!  The Wasps situation is far more pertinent to the case of Glasgow and Embra - consider that due to financial circumstances (mismanagement if you like), the Scots have already lost half of the pro-district teams that they started out with (Caledonian Reds and the Border Rievers, despite two attempts with the latter) post professionalism.  Surely you can see that with RELATIVE finances more tight for the Scots clubs as the PRL get a vastly increased share of the cake, with one side likely in the Amlin, the value of that club to potential sponsors will wither as the standard of competition they play in is no longer 'top flight', they won't be able to afford to secure/keep hold of certain players (too expensive), their performances will suffer ... its a downhill spiral potentially

No, its entirely down to the Amlin, just as Exe's success is entirely down to our A team thrashing Cavaliero Prato  <- that's the smiley I should have inserted in my previous post.

I believe I understand the implications of differences in relative finances, but I feel the conclusion is an overly worst case scenario. The merits of competing in the Amlin are dismissed almost entirely - currently there would be 2 or 4 fairly competitive pool games. In Amlinv2 there should be 6, if all the competitors are incentivised to put out strong teams (yes, that is a fairly big IF, but PRL know the benefits of a strong Amlinv2 and would work towards it). No doubt the Amlin is a step down from HC in generating dosh and developing players, and will continue to be, but I am not (yet) persuaded that finances or ability will degenerate to a disastrous degree due to a lower standard in 6 weekends (or more) out of 28 (or more).

[TJ]

No it is not. its their been their constant position since almost the start. Are you really claiming the PRL wanted to leave the HC no matter what but offered 6/6/6/2 as a compromise? Its nonsense. The PRLs opening position was for 8/8/8 but they changed to 6/6/6 to fit in with the French.

You claimed the PRL were the only party who would negotiate. negotiation needs compromise Now lets her the compromises they made. You also claimed the pro 12 would not compromise until now - I showed you compromises they offered a year ago.

Now go on - you have a way to recover some shreds of credibility. either admit you were wrong or find some compromises the PRL have made

[Guest]

The extract below is from ESPN. It looks like Goze is determined to push things rapidly to the end game...

But Goze is standing firm and is adamant his organisation will not return to the negotiating table. Goze told AFP: "I totally exclude returning to negotiations, they have failed for fifteen months, they will not come to a resolution in a fortnight. There are contracts that have been signed by various parties that mean there are no opportunities (for reconciliation).

"Creating a new competition will help us out of the trap which we have been in for several months. It is not just a desire to carry out a coup."

And despite ERC drafting in an external mediator to help with the negotiations, Canadian Graham Mew, Goze is adamant any chance of compromise has now passed.

"The mediator can't change the fact that contracts are signed," added Goze. "He may be able to mediate on the organisation of the competition, but with regards to the fundamental problem of this competition, we have passed the stage of negotiation. We have reached a dead end and we must find a way out. If we do not take the initiative, he will not. "

wait, what happened to all those "statutory powers" FFR have to compel LNR not only back to the ERC table but also to make a deal? ah yes, they only exist on rugby fora, not in reality.

Hmmnn...if this is true then PRL, and LNR, may well have burned their bridges as far as any further HEC involvement is concerned. Also, if true then you have to ask why on earth wait until now to reveal the fact? So all the PRL bluster over the last few months really has been nothing more than futile time-wasting waffle? They jumped early, and they were never serious about reform in the HEC as they had already sold out.
You mention 'making your bed, and lying in it'. PRL/LNR appear to have done so, and at what cost to them?
If some of the other claims coming from FFR are true then PRL may well find themselves isolated, and with no way back.

[TJ]

It showed some willingness to compromise and to seek other alternatives and I also gave other compromises as well offered. I afgree it wasn't muchuse but it showed the point that itsallabouttheincentives was talking out of his hat when he said the PRL would compromise and the PRO12 wouldn't.

I would really like to know how the PRL have compromised at all. I have seen none. The 6/6/2 was actually a hardeneing of their position from the original 8/8/8 they proposed and less acceptable to the pro 12 but meant they could side with the french.

Its clear to most of us the PRL set out with the objective of using this as a lever to gain total control of the club game aiming for a setup like the premiership and champions league in football. Selling the TV rights to a competition that does not exist dn they do not control hardly shows good faith.

[maestegmafia]

One last time. Instead of leaving (which process prl/lnr initiated jun2012) prl/lnr offered a solution which would be acceptable - 6/6/6+2. How is that not a compromise offer? On those terms prl/lnr would have been willing to put up with ERC. That's a compromise.

That is not a compromise, that is do what we say or we leave...! And since they announced that they have not compromised on their position. And the PRL went and sold a European competition that they had no right to sell to BT Vision.

It is unbelievable that you honestly think anyone but the PRL and less so the LNR have not been instrumental in cocking up professional rugby in europe as it stands.

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

"Last season, adding in meritocracy  payments based on performance,  the split of revenue was as follows:

France £10.2m, England £9.1m,  Ireland £5.53m, Wales £4.11m,  Scotland £4.11m, Italy £3.86m."

So the English clubs would lose around £750k each from central distribution, but also the income from home games and sponsorship, corporate etc from HC contenders would be reduced - not sure that Amlin in its current form enhances the sponsorship etc, and certainly reduces bums on seats.

the guarantee pre-performance payouts is £400k per english team (in HC and amlin) and £1.2m for zebre for example. see Connor O'Shea (quins director of rugby) explaining the figures on an RTE youtube interview. i cant attach. its on youtube.

Furry nuff - we have a discrepancy, and not for the first time in the Euro debate.

i didnt post the walesonline revenue data. seem to have hijacked another post somehow. apols for that.[/quote]
My fault, my apologies - quotey things got mucked up.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

One last time. Instead of leaving (which process prl/lnr initiated jun2012) prl/lnr offered a solution which would be acceptable - 6/6/6+2. How is that not a compromise offer? On those terms prl/lnr would have been willing to put up with ERC. That's a compromise.

That is not a compromise, that is do what we say or we leave...! And since they announced that they have not compromised on their position. And the PRL went and sold a European competition that they had no right to sell to BT Vision.

It is unbelievable that you honestly think anyone but the PRL and less so the LNR have not been instrumental in cocking up professional rugby in europe as it stands.

wow. i love that. of course they have been instrumental. but so have ERC and the rest of the interested parties within ERC. As we are so ably proving, it takes two to have an argument.

[TJ]

Any answers? go on - you know you really want to. or will you admit I was right. You couldn't evenget it right about the PRL negotiating position. 6/6/6/2 was a hardening of their position not a compromise.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

here's how the debate went...

PRL/LNR - we want change
ERC - No. Status quo.
PRL/LNR - ok we're leaving
ERC - ok what change do you want
LNR/PRL - present compromise
ERC reject plan
ERC propose alternative compromise to union voters within ERC only, not PRL/LNR, FFR reject it (apparently)
no-one moves for 12 months until a week ago

that is a dysfunctional organisation that was always going to implode.

[Sponsored content]