Merged thread euro competition

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Apparently there's a meeting today of two mighty behemoths of the English game meet to (presumably) find a common position on the wreckage of the negotiations on the future of European competition.

It will be interesting if they come to any clear (I doubt that it will be satisfactory) conclusion.

This, remember, is a discussion between two spectacularly incompetent bodies which have presided over farcical maladministration over the past decade.

The RFU, standard bearers of the ideals and ethos of the famed 57 Old Farts, have stumbled and staggered their way 'forward' since the dawn of professionalism.
vs
The PRL who have never managed to provide a satisfactory cohesive, decision which actually improves the English game with a satisfactory watertight, long term 'what if?' structured set of rules. They in their short history have represented solely the elite game through a seemingly never-ending stream of short-term, knee-jerk decisions which sow the quick-germinating seeds of insoluble and self-contradictory positions for the future. From its inception it has been nothing less than a disaster from the issue of voting shares, through parachute payments to the fundamental process of promotion/relegation itself. Bumbling incompetents.

Unfortunately they (the PRL) have the players and therefore all the cards over the RFU exactly two years before the 2015 RWC starts on English soil.

Grim and depressing innit? Especially for non-combatants.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

unions will be involved. via their club votes i would imagine.

#

In other words the Unions would be cut out of any decision making. Imagination's a great thing, but not to be trusted. Wasn't it you who said that Unions should stick to the amateur game, and the national teams? Only the clubs should run the clubs?

You just have to look at how the PRL/LNR are behaving now to know that they can't be trusted. They have entrenched themselves into a postion were they have to abandon the HEC, and if the Unions hold their ground, and no new Franglo is established, then the LNR will be ok with a T16, but the PRL is stuffed. The Rabo Unions take a serious hit as well, and I just hope that the Unions are working hard together on putting together a viable alternative.
A lot to expect from the Unions I know, but I'm allowed to hope.

yes, but i'm hardly alone in that view. no, only the clubs should run an international club competition. couldnt care less about individual club ownership/governance structure in each country, different systems have evolved for different reasons.

PRL have made v clear it will be 1 club 1 vote. whether celtic unions direct their clubs votes or not is up to them. i'm all for everyone doing what they think is in their best interests.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

unions will be involved. via their club votes i would imagine.

#

In other words the Unions would be cut out of any decision making. Imagination's a great thing, but not to be trusted. Wasn't it you who said that Unions should stick to the amateur game, and the national teams? Only the clubs should run the clubs?

You just have to look at how the PRL/LNR are behaving now to know that they can't be trusted. They have entrenched themselves into a postion were they have to abandon the HEC, and if the Unions hold their ground, and no new Franglo is established, then the LNR will be ok with a T16, but the PRL is stuffed. The Rabo Unions take a serious hit as well, and I just hope that the Unions are working hard together on putting together a viable alternative.
A lot to expect from the Unions I know, but I'm allowed to hope.

yes, but i'm hardly alone in that view. no, only the clubs should run an international club competition. couldnt care less about individual club ownership/governance structure in each country, different systems have evolved for different reasons.

PRL have made v clear it will be 1 club 1 vote. whether celtic unions direct their clubs votes or not is up to them. i'm all for everyone doing what they think is in their best interests.

and as hammer says, all unions need to authorise club participation in euro competition, so they is an ongoing relationship and dialogue, irrespective of votes in any new-formed cup.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

unions will be involved. via their club votes i would imagine.

#

In other words the Unions would be cut out of any decision making. Imaginations a great thing, but not to be trusted. Wasn't it you who said that Unions should stick to the amateur game, and the national teams? Only the clubs should run the clubs?

You just have to look at how the PRL/LNR are behaving now to know that they can't be trusted. They have entrenched themselves into a postion were they have to abandon the HEC, and if the Unions hold their ground, and no new Franglo is established, then the LNR will be ok with a T16, but the PRL is stuffed. The Rabo Unions take a serious hit as well, and I just hope that the Unions are working hard together on putting together a viable alternative.
A lot to expect from the Unions I know, but I'm allowed to hope.

What decision making do you think they will be cut out of? The unions still have to give this power 'away' and can take it back every time the competition is renegotiated. Also caveats and vetos could be put in place for major changes. All major changes in the Jeff are snactioned by the RFU. The PRL has commercial responsibility and put forward ideas. I don't see why they would want more control in Europe than they would in their own league.

Well I can see why they'd want to have more control in Europe than they have in their own league, but not why they should have.  

[Guest]

Well done PRL for destroying what was a fantastic competition    

For the few teams who walk into it every year without earning their place I'm sure it's great!

Don't cry about it  

I'm sure when all sides see sense then we'll get a fair (for all) European rugby cup in some shape or form.

I'm not crying about it, but true that I am saddened that a great rugby competition has been destroyed. Crazy, I know. I am an optimist though, and believe good things can come out of this. Not a club run competition. This whole fiasco has demonstrated that this will never work, as Union - Club contol is a bad mix. Either the Unions run it, or the Clubs. Speaking for myself; I just don't trust the clubs. Most fans don't, and for good reason.

[Welshmushroom]

Bruce's comments to make for some interesting reading.

The bit that they are prepared to legally challenge any ruling restricting trade clearly indicates they have this on the agenda. Some of his comments are clearly trying to get the Provinces/Regions on board so this does not become an issue.

Its interesting because as Neutral as the RFU are I cannot see any scenario where they can support their clubs if they go down the legal battle route. I also think the EU would probably allow them to go ahead with this tournament proposal.

That said the IRB wouldn't take a challenge like that lying down and failure for the RFU to punish the clubs with sanctions and removal of funding would almost certainly cause an International boycott of the English and French Unions. I already think the French Union wont be able to affect their clubs in anyway because the clubs have outgrown their Union.

What is interesting is that the RFU do fund approx. 20 million per season into the Aviva so that's approx. 1.6 million per club. Maybe this wouldn't hit the bigger clubs as much especially if they can recoup this from the new European tournament but it would certainly create a void between the top teams and the mid range/bottom teams.

Also is difficult to see how English Rugby would move ahead if players where boycotted from representing their international sides. For the French that's less of an issue as they are very well paid but currently the main pull for key England players not moving to france is the selection policy they have. If that's removed, I can see a lot of players leaving the Aviva to join the Top 14 which would probably result in the death of the league.

[Welshmushroom]

Additionally there is no way 20% of the revenue is generated for French teams through the current HC. For a side like Toulouse who have a budget of 20 million euros, its more like 5% or even less.

[Welshmushroom]

Here is what I don't get. All the funding for the HC as far as I am aware is still ongoing. Sky have signed up and all the other commercial partners have still committed to the HC. Surely the fact that French clubs and English clubs are pulling out will just leave 20 million available to distribute between themselves? They could probably offer 5 million to each of the SH unions and we could be looking at a world club cup and still have 5 million more to distribute between the Irish, Scottish, Welsh & Italians.

What is this myth Bruce is spreading that the Celtic Nations suddenly will be without HC money? Surely an assumption?

[HammerofThunor]

Here is what I don't get.  All the funding for the HC as far as I am aware is still ongoing.  Sky have signed up and all the other commercial partners have still committed to the HC.  Surely the fact that French clubs and English clubs are pulling out will just leave 20 million available to distribute between themselves?  They could probably offer 5 million to each of the SH unions and we could be looking at a world club cup and still have 5 million more to distribute between the Irish, Scottish, Welsh & Italians.  

What is this myth Bruce is spreading that the Celtic Nations suddenly will be without HC money?  Surely an assumption?

That depends on the participation agreement. I can't see it not being nullified when some parties pull out. Otherwise the SRU could get everyone to leave and carry on with all the cash. They could all re-sign it themselves and carry on but that would be the equivalent of a new deal and I can't see the Sky deal being valid anymore (if it is the sky lawyers will be getting sacked I think).

[Poorfour]

Welshmushroom, what's your source for £20m from the RFU to the Premiership clubs each year?

I know they get EPS payments and the EQP bonus, but I think that adds up to about £0.5m per team or £6m total - nowhere near the £20m you've mentioned. If the ERC money is distributed by the RFU, that would get you closer, but I still think £20m is hgher than any figure I have seen.

[Welshmushroom]

Welshmushroom, what's your source for £20m from the RFU to the Premiership clubs each year?

I know they get EPS payments and the EQP bonus, but I think that adds up to about £0.5m per team or £6m total - nowhere near the £20m you've mentioned. If the ERC money is distributed by the RFU, that would get you closer, but I still think £20m is hgher than any figure I have seen.

Here is the original deal that was put in place in 2007

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/2325851/RFU-and-Premier-Rugby-announce-new-deal.html

That's 102 Million over 8 years (thought it was 5). 12.75 million per year between 12 clubs is just over a million each and dwarfs your 6 million output you have stated.

There are also other payments from the RFU that are made outside of this agreement as well as all the player specific payments (which partly subsidize the players salary). I believe they receive 10K per match and are the highest paying national side.

[Guest]

unions will be involved. via their club votes i would imagine.

#

In other words the Unions would be cut out of any decision making. Imaginations a great thing, but not to be trusted. Wasn't it you who said that Unions should stick to the amateur game, and the national teams? Only the clubs should run the clubs?

You just have to look at how the PRL/LNR are behaving now to know that they can't be trusted. They have entrenched themselves into a postion were they have to abandon the HEC, and if the Unions hold their ground, and no new Franglo is established, then the LNR will be ok with a T16, but the PRL is stuffed. The Rabo Unions take a serious hit as well, and I just hope that the Unions are working hard together on putting together a viable alternative.
A lot to expect from the Unions I know, but I'm allowed to hope.

What decision making do you think they will be cut out of? The unions still have to give this power 'away' and can take it back every time the competition is renegotiated. Also caveats and vetos could be put in place for major changes. All major changes in the Jeff are snactioned by the RFU. The PRL has commercial responsibility and put forward ideas. I don't see why they would want more control in Europe than they would in their own league.

Hi, Hammer.

The bits in bold. How did the decision making work out between the Unions, and PRL, in the HEC? When were the Unions brought in to the decision making process when PRL/LNR decided to sign up to a BT deal?

What caveats and vetos do you imagine could be put in place that the PRL/LNR would agree to? After all, for them this is about extracting themselves from under the control of the Unions, not tying themselves in further.
And how are things working out in the AP between Club and Union? The very strong impression coming across in the media is that RFU is terrified of PRL.
The PRL, and LNR, have been threatening the Unions. They have the ability to have a major negative effect on European rugby, and this is with the control they have at the moment, and there are those who think it a good idea to give them more?

[HammerofThunor]

Hi, Hammer.

The bits in bold. How did the decision making work out between the Unions, and PRL, in the HEC? When were the Unions brought in to the decision making process when PRL/LNR decided to sign up to a BT deal?

What caveats and vetos do you imagine could be put in place that the PRL/LNR would agree to? After all, for them this is about extracting themselves from under the control of the Unions, not tying themselves in further.
And how are things working out in the AP between Club and Union? The very strong impression coming across in the media is that RFU is terrified of PRL.
The PRL, and LNR, have been threatening the Unions. They have the ability to have a major negative effect on European rugby, and this is with the control they have at the moment, and there are those who think it a good idea to give them more?

The RFU give the PRL (roughly) £102M and commercial rights over the Premiership over 8 years. For this they get extra time with the players (comparable to other nations with close links between domestic and union), control over training and medical aspects for EPS players (the RFU stopped Wasps playing Sackey because they didn't think he was fit enough), average EQ numbers for each club are >65% (cut off point for incentive) resulting in 180 EQ players in the league each week (worst case this is 84 Eq players starting if all the benchs ar eenglish and everyone is at the limit).

What have the RFU given up? The task of organising the TV and sponsorship deals? Which they would give all to the PRL anyway. The PRL wanted to expand the league to 14 in about 2010 and the RFU no. Seriously, there haven't been any real issues between the RFU and PRL since the EPS agreement came in in 2007.

I think the last gripe was McGeechan at Wasps in 2008 when they had a load of players in the EPS and yet didn't get full compensated for it (this is an internal PRL issues, which the RFU weren't happy about but couldn't do anything about). Then McGeechan also complained that Sackey had to be rested for parts of the sseason because he was in the EPS but hadn't played due to injury. Whereas Easter didn't have to be rested because, although he played in all of the AI, he was injury cover and not counted in the EPS agreement.

That's the sort of issues we have now, and those were 5 years ago.

[ChequeredJersey]

Err you do know Jeremy knows nothing about rugby outside England since he stopped playing?

He's a regular on Scrum 5 isn't he? Or do they just have him for comedy value!

Fixed this

[Guest]

Hi, Hammer.

The bits in bold. How did the decision making work out between the Unions, and PRL, in the HEC? When were the Unions brought in to the decision making process when PRL/LNR decided to sign up to a BT deal?

What caveats and vetos do you imagine could be put in place that the PRL/LNR would agree to? After all, for them this is about extracting themselves from under the control of the Unions, not tying themselves in further.
And how are things working out in the AP between Club and Union? The very strong impression coming across in the media is that RFU is terrified of PRL.
The PRL, and LNR, have been threatening the Unions. They have the ability to have a major negative effect on European rugby, and this is with the control they have at the moment, and there are those who think it a good idea to give them more?

The RFU give the PRL (roughly) £102M and commercial rights over the Premiership over 8 years. For this they get extra time with the players (comparable to other nations with close links between domestic and union), control over training and medical aspects for EPS players (the RFU stopped Wasps playing Sackey because they didn't think he was fit enough), average EQ numbers for each club are >65% (cut off point for incentive) resulting in 180 EQ players in the league each week (worst case this is 84 Eq players starting if all the benchs ar eenglish and everyone is at the limit).

What have the RFU given up? The task of organising the TV and sponsorship deals? Which they would give all to the PRL anyway. The PRL wanted to expand the league to 14 in about 2010 and the RFU no. Seriously, there haven't been any real issues between the RFU and PRL since the EPS agreement came in in 2007.

I think the last gripe was McGeechan at Wasps in 2008 when they had a load of players in the EPS and yet didn't get full compensated for it (this is an internal PRL issues, which the RFU weren't happy about but couldn't do anything about). Then McGeechan also complained that Sackey had to be rested for parts of the sseason because he was in the EPS but hadn't played due to injury. Whereas Easter didn't have to be rested because, although he played in all of the AI, he was injury cover and not counted in the EPS agreement.

That's the sort of issues we have now, and those were 5 years ago.

None of that really answers the questions though, does it? We're talking about European competition, and your claim that the Unions may still have some sort of control of any new competition with caveats, etc, in place. How have things worked out in the HEC? It looks like a disaster doesn't it? and the RFU are looking very weak when it comes to confronting PRL. Why is that? Is it because PRL could make things difficult for RFU? Especially leading up to the World Cup? These are the sorts of threats that I've heard here, and elsewhere.
Where was the RFU/FFR when PRL/LNR were signing contracts with BT?
Unions are not going to have any more control in any supposed new Franglo competition than they do in the HEC. Less, much less, if any.

[Poorfour]

Welshmushroom, what's your source for £20m from the RFU to the Premiership clubs each year?

I know they get EPS payments and the EQP bonus, but I think that adds up to about £0.5m per team or £6m total - nowhere near the £20m you've mentioned. If the ERC money is distributed by the RFU, that would get you closer, but I still think £20m is hgher than any figure I have seen.

Here is the original deal that was put in place in 2007

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/2325851/RFU-and-Premier-Rugby-announce-new-deal.html

That's 102 Million over 8 years (thought it was 5).  12.75 million per year between 12 clubs is just over a million each and dwarfs your 6 million output you have stated.  

There are also other payments from the RFU that are made outside of this agreement as well as all the player specific payments (which partly subsidize the players salary).  I believe they receive 10K per match and are the highest paying national side.  

Well, my £6m estimate was closer to the actual amount than your £20m estimate. £1m per club is a) considerably less than most of the Rabo teams get from the HEC alone, even if you add in the ERC payments to PRL clubs, b) around 10% of the revenue of most clubs.

What "other payments" are there outside of this agreement? I don't think you can count the player payments in this - that's an issue between the unions and the players, and the clubs have nothing to do with it.

[HammerofThunor]

I don't really understand your questions then.

The PRL can do nothing to the RFU without breaking firm contracts (agreement with RFU last until 2016). Did you ever think that the RFU aren't stamping on the PRL because they agree with them. Richie has already said he supports the PRL drive regarding qualification and finance distribution changes, but encourages negotiation. At any point the RFU can void the PRL TV agreement regarding European games.

ERC negotiations do look like a disaster but since nothing has been agreed vetos, etc don't mean anything. The PRL can't change the structure of the league without getting the approval of the RFU. I would imagine the same would happen in Europe, why would the teams expect more control in europe than they do in their own league? The Unions won't be able to say, "we're doing this" but they could say "you're not doing that".

[Guest]

I don't really understand your questions then.

The PRL can do nothing to the RFU without breaking firm contracts (agreement with RFU last until 2016).  Did you ever think that the RFU aren't stamping on the PRL because they agree with them. Richie has already said he supports the PRL drive regarding qualification and finance distribution changes, but encourages negotiation. At any point the RFU can void the PRL TV agreement regarding European games.

ERC negotiations do look like a disaster but since nothing has been agreed vetos, etc don't mean anything. The PRL can't change the structure of the league without getting the approval of the RFU. I would imagine the same would happen in Europe, why would the teams expect more control in europe than they do in their own league? The Unions won't be able to say, "we're doing this" but they could say "you're not doing that".

Yes, I have questioned whether RFU actually agrees with the PRL, but then I have no reason to assume that they do, given that they are largely quiet on the subject. Richie saying that he supports the PRL's demands on qualification/distribution is hardly a shock, is it? Why wouldn't he? but that is very different than saying he supports a breakaway competition run by PRL/LNR.
I never said that PRL could change the structure of the league, but that they could make things difficult for RFU, as has been voiced by some of those who support PRL on these forums.
Getting back to the question of Union involvement in a supposed new competition. Again I point to the example of the HEC. The PRL/LNR obviously reacted to the control of the Unions within the HEC, went behind their backs, signed the BT deal. Do you honestly believe that PRL/LNR would agree to subjecting themselves to further Union control within any new competition? A lot of the bluster coming out at the moment is that clubs should control any club competition, not the Unions.
My point is that if a new competition was formed with some sort of shared control, what's to stop PRL/LNR again reacting to Union control, and pulling the clubs, or at least threatening such? You might say putting caveats in place to prevent this happening, but I believe that would be wishful thinking. As far as PRL/LNR would be concerned this would be their competition. Not the Unions.
As I said previously; either it's Union controlled, or club controlled. The two don't mix, and it's my belief that any European competition should be Union controlled. Maybe after all this the Unions would sit on their hands a bit less.

[HammerofThunor]

What do you mean about a 'breakway' competition? One sanctioned by the FFR or one not sanctioned by the FFR? If the FFR snaction a competition I can't see the RFU stopping it. Especially as it means no agreement could come between them and the others. I don't think they would stop it out of spite or to make a point.

How could they make it difficult for the RFU? It could mean they don't give the RFU the same agreeement in 2016 as they do now but they RFU could take the TV rights off them so it's swings and roundabouts.

The PRL could always not agree to extend any contract. Any body could. So could the unions if they're not happy. No caveats would/should stop this (with proper notice of course). The Caveats are to stop the PRL saying, actually we're having twice as much per teams as you guys, or we're changing it to 8,8,2, or something like that.

Ultimately any competition has to be sanctioned by the unions. A European competition has to be sanctioned by all the unions involved. They may not dictate what happens but they can stop things from happening. Same as with the English Premeirship.

I still don't understand what people are worried about (from a control point of view). What do they think will happen?

[Artful_Dodger]

The PRL have lost the plot. They are now saying that if their tournament doesn't go ahead the Celtic nations face financial oblivion and are threatening legal action against the IRB should they attempt to block the new competition (Which the FFR is going to block anyway). These guys are getting pretty desperate at this stage. Legal action against the IRB, are they smoking something?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24224152

[Guest]

The PRL have lost the plot.  They are now saying that if their tournament doesn't go ahead the Celtic nations face financial oblivion and are threatening legal action against the IRB should they attempt to block the new competition (Which the FFR is going to block anyway).  These guys are getting pretty desperate at this stage.  Legal action against the IRB, are they smoking something?  


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24224152

Indeed, and all will wake up covered in boils, and our teeth will fall out

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Games not amateur anymore dodger. Once it went pro, last arbiter became the EU. U can pretend it's the irb or unions but u would be dead wrong. Not saying who would win, but it's an EU matter now.

[Artful_Dodger]

Games not amateur anymore dodger. Once it went pro, last arbiter became the EU. U can pretend it's the irb or unions but u would be dead wrong. Not saying who would win, but it's an EU matter now.

HAHA!  

The EU?? You people are insane.

[Poorfour]

Step away from the emotion for a moment and ask yourselves a question. Who do you think is more likely to win in a serious commercial dispute:

A commercial organisation representing the (largely) common interests of a small group of businesses, and set up and backed by successful businessmen who have invested a large amount of their own money in getting this far...

...or

A collection of governing bodies set up in the amateur era and still largely staffed by the old buffers from those days of yore, who have disparate interests and co-ordinate themselves through a notoriously inept organisation who have succeeded in making themselves the main remaining barrier to a successful agreement?

I'm exaggerating a little for effect, but the ongoing presumption that the PRL are desperate smacks of just a teeny bit of desperation itself.

Viewed from a distance, the ERC are stuck in the middle. The SRU, IRFU and WRU have all indicated a willingness to negotiate on qualification and cash. All the parties have said they want a pan European competition. The key remaining question is governance. Assuming that the PRL and LNR can offer something that the other unions can work with (and we have no hard evidence either way on this one - so leave the scaremongering and assumptions out of it), the only non-negotiable left is the removal (or major reform) of the ERC.

How long can they hold out?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Highest court of appeal for cross border intra-eu disputes.
Where else would it get resolved? V2

[Notch]

Well  their tournament won't be getting off the ground next season if it's an Anglo French Cup and the stances of the other major Unions in Europe don't change. They may go for the nucleur option, they may throw legal challenges at all and sundry but all that means the tournament will be delayed regardless of the outcome.

Their strategy is not to win the long legal battle, their strategy is that while all of this is tied up with the lawyers the other European teams can't afford to survive without a major cross-border tournament whereas they can. Although the French can survive better than the English. The English will be no worse off than before BT entered but they'll be no better off either- and their top sides wont be competing in as many high quality matches.

It really is extreme brinksmanship. But just like we can't force them to play in a tournament they don't want to play in, they can't stop us from arranging extra international matches to cover the shortfall of missing out on the Heineken Cup- after all, there are now nine free weeks in the season if the Heineken Cup goes ahead. So I think it's very likely we'll see an extended Autumn test window perhaps. Five or six autumn tests instead of three or four? Of course- the French clubs won't release their players!   

Judging by the statements of all parties, we're looking at a long messy war where nobody really wins. Ask players, coaches and fans- we all want a European Cup. We may have differences of opinion about the form it should take, but we want some form of tournament and we want it implemented for next season.

The use of a mediator is a good idea, I think Graham Mews remit should be changed to chair talks outside the ERC between all parties. After all the ERC is just a talking shop and the stakeholders to a successor organisation would essentially be the same people. And it's crystal clear that if we want European rugby next season the time has come to get everyone in a room, lock the doors and compromise on a new template.

[Feckless Rogue]

Highest court of appeal for cross border intra-eu disputes.
Where else would it get resolved? V2

Sure, we can resolve it. Then we can deal with Israel v Palestine. We may need to go to court to settle the big one. Who's better, Blur or Oasis.

[broadlandboy]

.

The use of a mediator is a good idea, I think Graham Mews remit should be changed to chair talks outside the ERC between all parties. After all the ERC is just a talking shop and the stakeholders to a successor organisation would essentially be the same people. And it's crystal clear that if we want European rugby next season the time has come to get everyone in a room, lock the doors and compromise on a new template.

+1

[Notch]

The problem is Lux and the ERC will want to preserve themselves, but without the confidence and backing of the Unions the ERC is nothing... and if anything the acrimonious nature of recent events is only increasing the Celtic Unions support for the ERC.

So if the PRL/LNR want this Rugby Champions Cup to go ahead? They should get in touch with the SRU, IRFU, WRU and FIR and make us an offer. Don't try and bully us to coming over to your side, make us an offer that demonstrates why life would be better for us without the ERC. Why a new tournament can be mutually beneficial.

It would be a sea change in approach, the kind that this impasse needs.

[Guest]

The problem is Lux and the ERC will want to preserve themselves, but without the confidence and backing of the Unions the ERC is nothing... and if anything the acrimonious nature of recent events is only increasing the Celtic Unions support for the ERC.

So if the PRL/LNR want this Rugby Champions Cup to go ahead? They should get in touch with the SRU, IRFU, WRU and FIR and make us an offer. Don't try and bully us to coming over to your side, make us an offer that demonstrates why life would be better for us without the ERC. Why a new tournament can be mutually beneficial.

It would be a sea change in approach, the kind that this impasse needs.

They have sent out invites to all 6N Unions from what I gather, and apparently the invites have hugs and kisses at the bottom just to let us know that they still love us, and have our best interests at heart.

[stub]

The problem is Lux and the ERC will want to preserve themselves, but without the confidence and backing of the Unions the ERC is nothing... and if anything the acrimonious nature of recent events is only increasing the Celtic Unions support for the ERC.

So if the PRL/LNR want this Rugby Champions Cup to go ahead? They should get in touch with the SRU, IRFU, WRU and FIR and make us an offer. Don't try and bully us to coming over to your side, make us an offer that demonstrates why life would be better for us without the ERC. Why a new tournament can be mutually beneficial.

It would be a sea change in approach, the kind that this impasse needs.

Might that not be happening Notch? Or have happened?

[Notch]

It depends if the PRL/LNR are singing one tune in the media and another behind closed doors, which is possible. If they are as intransigent outside the public eye as they have been in their carefully orchestrated media offensive I fear the worst

[stub]

The problem is Lux and the ERC will want to preserve themselves, but without the confidence and backing of the Unions the ERC is nothing... and if anything the acrimonious nature of recent events is only increasing the Celtic Unions support for the ERC.

So if the PRL/LNR want this Rugby Champions Cup to go ahead? They should get in touch with the SRU, IRFU, WRU and FIR and make us an offer. Don't try and bully us to coming over to your side, make us an offer that demonstrates why life would be better for us without the ERC. Why a new tournament can be mutually beneficial.

It would be a sea change in approach, the kind that this impasse needs.

They have sent out invites to all 6N Unions from what I gather, and apparently the invites have hugs and kisses at the bottom just to let us know that they still love us, and have our best interests at heart.

PRL/LNR might not invite others for wholly altruistic reasons Munchkin but I bet they are interested in getting the Unions and by extension other clubs on board. I would think that they could also demonstrate that life could be good (but not perfect) for all.

[Exiledinborders]

Well  their tournament won't be getting off the ground next season if it's an Anglo French Cup and the stances of the other major Unions in Europe don't change. They may go for the nucleur option, they may throw legal challenges at all and sundry but all that means the tournament will be delayed regardless of the outcome.

Their strategy is not to win the long legal battle, their strategy is that while all of this is tied up with the lawyers the other European teams can't afford to survive without a major cross-border tournament whereas they can. Although the French can survive better than the English. The English will be no worse off than before BT entered but they'll be no better off either- and their top sides wont be competing in as many high quality matches.

It really is extreme brinksmanship. But just like we can't force them to play in a tournament they don't want to play in, they can't stop us from arranging extra international matches to cover the shortfall of missing out on the Heineken Cup- after all, there are now nine free weeks in the season if the Heineken Cup goes ahead. So I think it's very likely we'll see an extended Autumn test window perhaps. Five or six autumn tests instead of three or four? Of course- the French clubs won't release their players!   

Judging by the statements of all parties, we're looking at a long messy war where nobody really wins. Ask players, coaches and fans- we all want a European Cup. We may have differences of opinion about the form it should take, but we want some form of tournament and we want it implemented for next season.

The use of a mediator is a good idea, I think Graham Mews remit should be changed to chair talks outside the ERC between all parties. After all the ERC is just a talking shop and the stakeholders to a successor organisation would essentially be the same people. And it's crystal clear that if we want European rugby next season the time has come to get everyone in a room, lock the doors and compromise on a new template.

These internationals will be pretty second rate without players from English and French leagues.

[stub]

It depends if the PRL/LNR are singing one tune in the media and another behind closed doors, which is possible. If they are as intransigent outside the public eye as they have been in their carefully orchestrated media offensive I fear the worst

I have said all along that I think they know they need competitive PRO12 teams to generate an attractive tournament. I think therefore they will be trying to show strength whilst also trying to attract unions/clubs in... But what do I know.

[Notch]

These internationals will be pretty second rate without players from English and French leagues.

Really? Completely Irish based XV for 2014/2015- even if O'Brien and Heaslip leave;

Healy, Best, Ross, Ryan, O'Connell, Henderson, Henry, O'Mahony, Murray, Madigan, Zebo, Marshall, Payne, Bowe, Kearney

Looks alright to me! Wales will struggle more, true.

[Notch]

It depends if the PRL/LNR are singing one tune in the media and another behind closed doors, which is possible. If they are as intransigent outside the public eye as they have been in their carefully orchestrated media offensive I fear the worst

I have said all along that I think they know they need competitive PRO12 teams to generate an attractive tournament. I think therefore they will be trying to show strength whilst also trying to attract unions/clubs in... But what do I know.

Aye you might be right. But it seems their approach is more stick than carrot so far. I also think they don't understand that the Unions primary interest is the International game and how any new tournament will affect it is a massive part of negotiations. If they want to negotiate with the clubs directly, then they are in difficulties because the structure and culture is different- there is no privately owned equivalent to the PRL in Ireland, just professional sides run by the Union.

They have to live with that and I'm not sure they grasp that the provinces exist not just to compete at club level but that their primary purpose is to develop players for the international game- hence the row over automatic qualification. The Unions want to expose as high a proportion of their player base to the top flight of European rugby as possible and the PRL/LNR want a hard-fought meritocracy even if it means some nations aren't represented- the difference comes from the fact the two blocks want different things for different reasons.

[maestegmafia]

I have read plenty of English Rugby fans that are highly sceptical of those who want a new European competition, but not one non Englishman agree with the concept of the rugby champions cup.


That speaks volumes in my opinion...!


For all the repetitive points banded by those pro following the PRLs lead, not a single poster has been swayed to agree.

In a poll of who is most distrusted in this very sorry affaire, the board were almost unanimous in voting the PRL the most distrustful.

[MarcusHalberstram]

Just been reading this article on BBC about Bruce Craig (Bath dept chairman) http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24224152

In it he says ""If all 38 [European] clubs were actually given the opportunity to come into the Rugby Champions Cup, I believe all 38 would probably agree," said Craig, a former scrum-half with Paris side Racing Metro. "It's basically the Celtic unions that would stop them from participating."

I'm confused - 38 clubs?! What's he talking about? Are they planning on having a two tier competition or a conference system, or what? This is the first I've heard about such open inclusion. I thought the whole point was they wanted a competition with only 18-20 teams?

[Intotouch]

The FFR have said that they will enter French regional teams in a h cup if their clubs refuse to play in it. Has everyone forgotten this?

What I think will most likely happen (as of right now) is that the LNR will refuse to play in the h cup, their cross border franglo cup won't happen or will be delayed by legal actions, so they will expand the top 14 instead and still make lots of money. In the meantime the FFR will put a pet ambition into action and recruit prod2 players and any other French rugby players that they can find to form two regional sides and enter them in the h cup. The h cup will have a peculiar year, a new head of the FFR and the LNR will be elected and then back to the negotiating table where a new deal that the French would prefer will be struck. Years of fun ahead! But this regional team idea is one that I read about before as a possible FFR project so I do believe they will go ahead with it. I have no idea what the English clubs will decide to do or not do, but as the French really can take it or leave it (h cup) I think the result will be down to them in the end.

[Guest]

The problem is Lux and the ERC will want to preserve themselves, but without the confidence and backing of the Unions the ERC is nothing... and if anything the acrimonious nature of recent events is only increasing the Celtic Unions support for the ERC.

So if the PRL/LNR want this Rugby Champions Cup to go ahead? They should get in touch with the SRU, IRFU, WRU and FIR and make us an offer. Don't try and bully us to coming over to your side, make us an offer that demonstrates why life would be better for us without the ERC. Why a new tournament can be mutually beneficial.

It would be a sea change in approach, the kind that this impasse needs.

They have sent out invites to all 6N Unions from what I gather, and apparently the invites have hugs and kisses at the bottom just to let us know that they still love us, and have our best interests at heart.

PRL/LNR might not invite others for wholly altruistic reasons Munchkin but I bet they are interested in getting the Unions and by extension other clubs on board.  I would think that they could also demonstrate that life could be good (but not perfect) for all.

Hi, stub.

I have absolutely no doubt that PRL/LNR are interested in getting the Unions on side, especially the PRL. In fact I would think they have been depending on it. This is the huge gamble they have taken.
We all want to see a European competition, and we all want it to be a success, but the way some have conducted their business has made things very, very, difficult to make any headway any time soon.
The more articles printed in the press, the more entrenched in their positions each side becomes. At least it appears that way to me.
Maybe this mediator can pull both sides together, and just maybe reason will come to the fore. We can only hope.

[stub]

It depends if the PRL/LNR are singing one tune in the media and another behind closed doors, which is possible. If they are as intransigent outside the public eye as they have been in their carefully orchestrated media offensive I fear the worst

I have said all along that I think they know they need competitive PRO12 teams to generate an attractive tournament. I think therefore they will be trying to show strength whilst also trying to attract unions/clubs in... But what do I know.

Aye you might be right. But it seems their approach is more stick than carrot so far. I also think they don't understand that the Unions primary interest is the International game and how any new tournament will affect it is a massive part of negotiations. If they want to negotiate with the clubs directly, then they are in difficulties because the structure and culture is different- there is no privately owned equivalent to the PRL in Ireland, just professional sides run by the Union.

They have to live with that and I'm not sure they grasp that the provinces exist not just to compete at club level but that their primary purpose is to develop players for the international game- hence the row over automatic qualification. The Unions want to expose as high a proportion of their player base to the top flight of European rugby as possible and the PRL/LNR want a hard-fought meritocracy even if it means some nations aren't represented- the difference comes from the fact the two blocks want different things for different reasons.

Yes, I think it makes a lot of sense when you say that the PRL probably don't understand the intricacies and culture of the various PRO12 setups but I should think they'll do their best to learn in order to get the right result.

[broadlandboy]

PRL/LNR Proposal Tier 1 20 teams Tier 2 20 teams Tier 3 to be formed for teams from other Unions

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Just been reading this article on BBC about Bruce Craig (Bath dept chairman) http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24224152

In it he says ""If all 38 [European] clubs were actually given the opportunity to come into the Rugby Champions Cup, I believe all 38 would probably agree," said Craig, a former scrum-half with Paris side Racing Metro. "It's basically the Celtic unions that would stop them from participating."

I'm confused - 38 clubs?! What's he talking about? Are they planning on having a two tier competition or a conference system, or what?  This is the first I've heard about such open inclusion.  I thought the whole point was they wanted a competition with only 18-20 teams?

The proposals are for a 20 team HCv2, a 20 team Amlinv2, and a pre-qualifying "minnows" competition of unknown proportions and nationalites to provide 2 teams to the Amlinv2. As best as we can decipher from the varying press info. 38 of the usual suspects in HCv2 and Amlinv2 plus 2 qualifiers from Romania, Spain, Georgia, Portugal, Russia, ????

[stub]

The problem is Lux and the ERC will want to preserve themselves, but without the confidence and backing of the Unions the ERC is nothing... and if anything the acrimonious nature of recent events is only increasing the Celtic Unions support for the ERC.

So if the PRL/LNR want this Rugby Champions Cup to go ahead? They should get in touch with the SRU, IRFU, WRU and FIR and make us an offer. Don't try and bully us to coming over to your side, make us an offer that demonstrates why life would be better for us without the ERC. Why a new tournament can be mutually beneficial.

It would be a sea change in approach, the kind that this impasse needs.

They have sent out invites to all 6N Unions from what I gather, and apparently the invites have hugs and kisses at the bottom just to let us know that they still love us, and have our best interests at heart.

PRL/LNR might not invite others for wholly altruistic reasons Munchkin but I bet they are interested in getting the Unions and by extension other clubs on board.  I would think that they could also demonstrate that life could be good (but not perfect) for all.

Hi, stub.

I have absolutely no doubt that PRL/LNR are interested in getting the Unions on side, especially the PRL. In fact I would think they have been depending on it. This is the huge gamble they have taken.
We all want to see a European competition, and we all want it to be a success, but the way some have conducted their business has made things very, very, difficult to make any headway any time soon.
The more articles printed in the press, the more entrenched in their positions each side becomes. At least it appears that way to me.
Maybe this mediator can pull both sides together, and just maybe reason will come to the fore. We can only hope.

Yes Munchkin - I think it's what most of us want and pragmatically I think it's actually what all parties need. The unpleasant bluster I think is mainly posturing which I hope does not go wrong.

[broadlandboy]

Notch If the unions want to expose as many as possible why have non qualified players?

[whocares]

The FFR would enter regional teams?! With semi amateurs?
Would be interested to know where you read that !

[stub]

The FFR have said that they will enter French regional teams in a h cup if their clubs refuse to play in it. Has everyone forgotten this?

What I think will most likely happen (as of right now) is that the LNR will refuse to play in the h cup, their cross border franglo cup won't happen or will be delayed by legal actions, so they will expand the top 14 instead and still make lots of money. In the meantime the FFR will put a pet ambition into action and recruit prod2 players and any other French rugby players that they can find to form two regional sides and enter them in the h cup. The h cup will have a peculiar year, a new head of the FFR and the LNR will be elected and then back to the negotiating table where a new deal that the French would prefer will be struck. Years of fun ahead! But this regional team idea is one that I read about before as a possible FFR project so I do believe they will go ahead with it. I have no idea what the English clubs will decide to do or not do, but as the French really can take it or leave it (h cup) I think the result will be down to them in the end.

The RFU might do the same by playing the Championship sides? Not sure if it would be possible to construct stronger regional sides? I think you're right LNR won't play and we know PRL won't play current HEC under ERC. Perhaps though good sense will prevail, compromises will be made beautiful top class European rugby will be played, enough money will be generated and shared by all and an English team will lift the cup (add your own team/nation)

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Guardian,

'The four Welsh regions are meeting ahead of scheduled round of talks called by ERC for 23 and 24 October at which a mediator, Graeme Mew, is due to report, but the English and French clubs say they will not be there. The regions, who would stand to lose 25% of their income if the Heineken Cup fell and nothing replaced it, want the Welsh Rugby Union to have an open-minded approach about a new tournament, warning that otherwise it would be almost impossible to hold on to players in the Wales squad.'

[Notch]

Notch If the unions want to expose as many as possible why have non qualified players?

You mean very limited numbers of non-qualified players! For a variety of reasons.

It's the subject of much push-pull and conflict within the IRFU. The general consensus is that world class players set an example for younger guys and the standard has to be high for NIQ players coming in. NIQ players do keep the provinces happier with the international player management programme because we are deprived of our big name players much of the time. Johann Muller was given the Captaincy at Ulster due to the frequent absences of Rory Best- whilst Sexton has been playing for six weeks this weekend is the first time our Lions will be available, with Best missing the first three rounds despite playing no part in the tests. NIQs can make up for us having a limit on how much our best homegrown players can play to keep them fresh for test rugby.

The IRFU have been reducing the number of NIQs year on year, although not too drastically as they need to keep the provinces happy and competitive. As far as I know, we have the lowest percentage of non-eligible players in Europe- and our national side has the best access to players for training camps etc. Connacht are exempt from the rules that govern the other three provinces because the aim is to bring their standard up and create a better side with a bigger fanbase and a more relaxed approach to NIQs is regarded as one of the quickest ways of doing that, especially when their homegrown players often desire to move to other provinces.

Ultimately having 4 guys who are not eligible for Ireland and never will be (guys who can qualify on residency are regarded differently, but also limited) in squads of typically 40 is not that much and if they can pass on skills and experience to the next generation of Ireland internationals, its viewed as a net plus despite the misgivings of the IRFU.

If this crisis leads us to lean times financially we may see NIQ players as one of the first things to go.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

.

The use of a mediator is a good idea, I think Graham Mews remit should be changed to chair talks outside the ERC between all parties. After all the ERC is just a talking shop and the stakeholders to a successor organisation would essentially be the same people. And it's crystal clear that if we want European rugby next season the time has come to get everyone in a room, lock the doors and compromise on a new template.

+1

+1

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