Merged thread euro competition

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Apparently there's a meeting today of two mighty behemoths of the English game meet to (presumably) find a common position on the wreckage of the negotiations on the future of European competition.

It will be interesting if they come to any clear (I doubt that it will be satisfactory) conclusion.

This, remember, is a discussion between two spectacularly incompetent bodies which have presided over farcical maladministration over the past decade.

The RFU, standard bearers of the ideals and ethos of the famed 57 Old Farts, have stumbled and staggered their way 'forward' since the dawn of professionalism.
vs
The PRL who have never managed to provide a satisfactory cohesive, decision which actually improves the English game with a satisfactory watertight, long term 'what if?' structured set of rules. They in their short history have represented solely the elite game through a seemingly never-ending stream of short-term, knee-jerk decisions which sow the quick-germinating seeds of insoluble and self-contradictory positions for the future. From its inception it has been nothing less than a disaster from the issue of voting shares, through parachute payments to the fundamental process of promotion/relegation itself. Bumbling incompetents.

Unfortunately they (the PRL) have the players and therefore all the cards over the RFU exactly two years before the 2015 RWC starts on English soil.

Grim and depressing innit? Especially for non-combatants.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

It depends if the PRL/LNR are singing one tune in the media and another behind closed doors, which is possible. If they are as intransigent outside the public eye as they have been in their carefully orchestrated media offensive I fear the worst

I have said all along that I think they know they need competitive PRO12 teams to generate an attractive tournament. I think therefore they will be trying to show strength whilst also trying to attract unions/clubs in... But what do I know.

Aye you might be right. But it seems their approach is more stick than carrot so far. I also think they don't understand that the Unions primary interest is the International game and how any new tournament will affect it is a massive part of negotiations. If they want to negotiate with the clubs directly, then they are in difficulties because the structure and culture is different- there is no privately owned equivalent to the PRL in Ireland, just professional sides run by the Union.

They have to live with that and I'm not sure they grasp that the provinces exist not just to compete at club level but that their primary purpose is to develop players for the international game- hence the row over automatic qualification. The Unions want to expose as high a proportion of their player base to the top flight of European rugby as possible and the PRL/LNR want a hard-fought meritocracy even if it means some nations aren't represented- the difference comes from the fact the two blocks want different things for different reasons.

who's been using the stick so far? IRB/ERC/FFR - thats why they chased away PRL/LNR. if celtalia dont like the new carrot that doesnt change the fact that all the threats have come from IRB/ERC/FFR. prl/lnr have just legitimately withdrawn from a commercial arrangement and given due notice. no stick there.

[Notch]

Are you for real?

Bruce Craig in the press talking about how everyone else needs to drink the kool-aid or face financial oblivion isn't thinly veiled threats intended to further their chances of getting a better deal? Please.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Are you for real?

Bruce Craig in the press talking about how everyone else needs to drink the kool-aid or face financial oblivion isn't thinly veiled threats intended to further their chances of getting a better deal? Please.

not a threat at all. prl/lnr are out of HC. end of. get used to it. he is describing, as he sees it, with a bit of extra melodrama for media consumption, the implications of the new stalemate. a threat is usually a statement of an intention to inflict harm or pain. if no-one does anything the celtic nations will suffer according to Craig. thats not a threat. thats the current situation. anything else?

[itsallabouttheincentives]

if you had said this two weeks ago then i would have agreed it was a threat. now its reality. not a threat.

[Notch]

 

[stub]

 

Unfortunately I think that's right but now something else that works for all needs to be built. It might take a while though.

[broadlandboy]

How is Bruce Craig saying what he thinks will be the outcome any different to those that say if PRL/LNR are successful it will be the end of the international game? They are just view points,no body knows for definate what will happen,only history will tell us

[stub]

How is Bruce Craig saying what he thinks will be the outcome any different to those that say if PRL/LNR are successful it will be the end of the international game? They are just view points,no body knows for definate what will happen,only history will tell us

Correct - we are all just guessing.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

The problem is Lux and the ERC will want to preserve themselves, but without the confidence and backing of the Unions the ERC is nothing... and if anything the acrimonious nature of recent events is only increasing the Celtic Unions support for the ERC.

So if the PRL/LNR want this Rugby Champions Cup to go ahead? They should get in touch with the SRU, IRFU, WRU and FIR and make us an offer. Don't try and bully us to coming over to your side, make us an offer that demonstrates why life would be better for us without the ERC. Why a new tournament can be mutually beneficial.

It would be a sea change in approach, the kind that this impasse needs.

Might that not be happening Notch? Or have happened?

From what I've heard, they've approached the Pro12 clubs / regions / provinces but warned their unions to butt out. Mr Craig clearly sees the unions as an annoyance rather than potential partners.

[Notch]

The problem is Lux and the ERC will want to preserve themselves, but without the confidence and backing of the Unions the ERC is nothing... and if anything the acrimonious nature of recent events is only increasing the Celtic Unions support for the ERC.

So if the PRL/LNR want this Rugby Champions Cup to go ahead? They should get in touch with the SRU, IRFU, WRU and FIR and make us an offer. Don't try and bully us to coming over to your side, make us an offer that demonstrates why life would be better for us without the ERC. Why a new tournament can be mutually beneficial.

It would be a sea change in approach, the kind that this impasse needs.

Might that not be happening Notch? Or have happened?

From what I've heard, they've approached the Pro12 clubs / regions / provinces but warned their unions to butt out. Mr Craig clearly sees the unions as an annoyance rather than potential partners.

Which is an unrealistic aspiration. It staggers me that the PRL don't see this.

[TJ]

Not just unrealistic but impossible as most of the PRO12 sides are a part of and inseparable from their unions.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Precisely.

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

The problem is Lux and the ERC will want to preserve themselves, but without the confidence and backing of the Unions the ERC is nothing... and if anything the acrimonious nature of recent events is only increasing the Celtic Unions support for the ERC.

So if the PRL/LNR want this Rugby Champions Cup to go ahead? They should get in touch with the SRU, IRFU, WRU and FIR and make us an offer. Don't try and bully us to coming over to your side, make us an offer that demonstrates why life would be better for us without the ERC. Why a new tournament can be mutually beneficial.

It would be a sea change in approach, the kind that this impasse needs.

Might that not be happening Notch? Or have happened?

From what I've heard, they've approached the Pro12 clubs / regions / provinces but warned their unions to butt out. Mr Craig clearly sees the unions as an annoyance rather than potential partners.

What have you heard?? Gwan, gwan, gwan - tell us

[Notch]

I'm sure the Pro12 teams would love to be involved... of course in Ulsters case since all Irish players are centrally contracted and the IRFU own our ground not sure exactly what form they expect our participation to take without the blessing of our Union! We'll jump aboard, we just won't have any players or a venue for matches. Good job.

This is the same mentality that says the Pro12 should be treated the exact same as the other leagues despite it being an international tournament as opposed to a domestic league.

Nothing will happen with this new tournament without the blessing of the FFR, never mind the Celtic Unions, so if we're going to get anywhere stop trying to cut out the middleman and start productive negotiations with the Unions  

[stub]

The problem is Lux and the ERC will want to preserve themselves, but without the confidence and backing of the Unions the ERC is nothing... and if anything the acrimonious nature of recent events is only increasing the Celtic Unions support for the ERC.

So if the PRL/LNR want this Rugby Champions Cup to go ahead? They should get in touch with the SRU, IRFU, WRU and FIR and make us an offer. Don't try and bully us to coming over to your side, make us an offer that demonstrates why life would be better for us without the ERC. Why a new tournament can be mutually beneficial.

It would be a sea change in approach, the kind that this impasse needs.

Might that not be happening Notch? Or have happened?

From what I've heard, they've approached the Pro12 clubs / regions / provinces but warned their unions to butt out. Mr Craig clearly sees the unions as an annoyance rather than potential partners.

Maybe he'll have to change his approach although he perhaps doesn't represent the entire PRL.

[Notch]

Lorenzetti is the latest club owner has said that Unions shouldn't be involved- at all- in club rugby.

If that is the position of the PRL/LNR then European rugby as we know it is officially over. France and England are the only top nations in the rugby world to have their top tier cubs privately run independent of the Unions so if they aren't willing to deal with Unions- they will just play each other forever. Only a collaborative approach between the clubs and unions can deliver a cross-border tournament.

It would be a dark, dark day in the history of the game. This attitude threatens everything millions of rugby fans worldwide hold dear.

[stub]

I still think that pragmatic thinking will mean that the outcome does not turn out to be endless Eng v France!

[HammerofThunor]

I think (and hope) they're focusing more on their own unions. If they're told the Provincial reps are employed by the IRFU, I don't think they would say "bugger off". Again, we don't know the ins and outs because whoever is doing the interviews or questions doesn't seem to be asking the right questions.

With some of the French stuff I think some of it may also be dodgy translations.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

I'm sure the Pro12 teams would love to be involved... of course in Ulsters case since all Irish players are centrally contracted and the IRFU own our ground not sure exactly what form they expect our participation to take without the blessing of our Union! We'll jump aboard, we just won't have any players or a venue for matches. Good job.

This is the same mentality that says the Pro12 should be treated the exact same as the other leagues despite it being an international tournament as opposed to a domestic league.

Nothing will happen with this new tournament without the blessing of the FFR, never mind the Celtic Unions, so if we're going to get anywhere stop trying to cut out the middleman and start productive negotiations with the Unions  

so you agree that in order to move forwards the ERC needs to be consigned to the dustbin and the mediator (who is obviously very canny for having said absolutely nothing in the public domain) should be allowed to get cracking? i think that would be a majority view, and is the only chance of salvaging anything.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

I think (and hope) they're focusing more on their own unions. If they're told the Provincial reps are employed by the IRFU, I don't think they would say "bugger off". Again, we don't know the ins and outs because whoever is doing the interviews or questions doesn't seem to be asking the right questions.

With some of the French stuff I think some of it may also be dodgy translations.

show me the quotes and i will translate for you

[Notch]

I would like open negotiations between all parties on the future form of European competition. I would like to see the ERC continue, of course- contrary to the derision poured on them they have done an excellent job of growing the European Cup from a curiosity that lots of people thought may not survive into one of the best tournaments anywhere in any sport.

If the ERC is a dealbreaker, there's no point in the main decision makers supporting rival, unsustainable tournaments. Let's get out of fantasyland. Sky Sports will surely pay less than top dollar for a HC without the French and English clubs despite the deal being extended recently and your proposed Anglo-French Cup has so many barriers to starting next year that it would require a massively long and expensive legal battle to even get it off the ground. Its not going to happen without the consent of the IRB, RFU and FFR- at least not next season.

Unless the PRL/LNR have a massive change of heart about the ERC the best course of action is to enter into negotiations for a new tournament to begin next year with a governing body comprised of representatives from the PRL, LNR and major European Rugby Unions.

You know what that reminds me of? The ERC!  

[HammerofThunor]

I think (and hope) they're focusing more on their own unions. If they're told the Provincial reps are employed by the IRFU, I don't think they would say "bugger off". Again, we don't know the ins and outs because whoever is doing the interviews or questions doesn't seem to be asking the right questions.

With some of the French stuff I think some of it may also be dodgy translations.

show me the quotes and i will translate for you

Not that fussed too much, thanks Bruce.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

I think (and hope) they're focusing more on their own unions. If they're told the Provincial reps are employed by the IRFU, I don't think they would say "bugger off". Again, we don't know the ins and outs because whoever is doing the interviews or questions doesn't seem to be asking the right questions.

With some of the French stuff I think some of it may also be dodgy translations.

show me the quotes and i will translate for you

Not that fussed too much, thanks Bruce.

Muppet remark. my wife is french. was offering to help. you probably lost sight of that from up on your high horse.

[HammerofThunor]

I think (and hope) they're focusing more on their own unions. If they're told the Provincial reps are employed by the IRFU, I don't think they would say "bugger off". Again, we don't know the ins and outs because whoever is doing the interviews or questions doesn't seem to be asking the right questions.

With some of the French stuff I think some of it may also be dodgy translations.

show me the quotes and i will translate for you

Not that fussed too much, thanks Bruce.

Muppet remark. my wife is french. was offering to help. you probably lost sight of that from up on your high horse.

Chill out. You take yourself too seriously.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

I think (and hope) they're focusing more on their own unions. If they're told the Provincial reps are employed by the IRFU, I don't think they would say "bugger off". Again, we don't know the ins and outs because whoever is doing the interviews or questions doesn't seem to be asking the right questions.

With some of the French stuff I think some of it may also be dodgy translations.

show me the quotes and i will translate for you

Not that fussed too much, thanks Bruce.

Muppet remark. my wife is french. was offering to help. you probably lost sight of that from up on your high horse.

Chill out. You take yourself too seriously.

ok, oracle of v2, if you say so. can't possibly be a lack of grace on your part.

[HammerofThunor]

I'm as graceful as an Elephant. Sorry.

[Poorfour]

I would like open negotiations between all parties on the future form of European competition. I would like to see the ERC continue, of course- contrary to the derision poured on them they have done an excellent job of growing the European Cup from a curiosity that lots of people thought may not survive into one of the best tournaments anywhere in any sport.

If the ERC is a dealbreaker, there's no point in the main decision makers supporting rival, unsustainable tournaments. Let's get out of fantasyland. Sky Sports will surely pay less than top dollar for a HC without the French and English clubs despite the deal being extended recently and your proposed Anglo-French Cup has so many barriers to starting next year that it would require a massively long and expensive legal battle to even get it off the ground. Its not going to happen without the consent of the IRB, RFU and FFR- at least not next season.

Unless the PRL/LNR have a massive change of heart about the ERC the best course of action is to enter into negotiations for a new tournament to begin next year with a governing body comprised of representatives from the PRL, LNR and major European Rugby Unions.

You know what that reminds me of? The ERC!  

The alternative would be to say "OK, let's talk about a successor to the ERC", and try to negotiate a jointly agreed governance position. Lux himself is a big part of the problem - the FFR's role in his re-election played a major role in the LNR's serving notice. The PRL have said they are prepared to negotiate as long as it's not via the ERC, just about everyone else has said they're prepared to negotiate on the other sticking points.

If the PRL have approached the individual teams, then I suspect it is a negotiating tactic. Do you really think they are so daft as not to know that there are union-run teams out there? But it's quite possible that if they outline their plans to the teams and the teams say to their respective unions "you know what? These are worth considering", it might break the deadlock. It's seems pretty clear that we won't get an answer if it's only the same old voices entrenching their current positions more deeply.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

 

I'm as graceful as an Elephant. Sorry.

[TJ]

There is no chnce at all of any of the PRO12 eams playing in a PRL led breakaway - none wahtsoever adn the PRL know this. the statements that some want to is clearly desperate attempts to sound as if someone will break ranks. No one will.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

I would like open negotiations between all parties on the future form of European competition. I would like to see the ERC continue, of course- contrary to the derision poured on them they have done an excellent job of growing the European Cup from a curiosity that lots of people thought may not survive into one of the best tournaments anywhere in any sport.

If the ERC is a dealbreaker, there's no point in the main decision makers supporting rival, unsustainable tournaments. Let's get out of fantasyland. Sky Sports will surely pay less than top dollar for a HC without the French and English clubs despite the deal being extended recently and your proposed Anglo-French Cup has so many barriers to starting next year that it would require a massively long and expensive legal battle to even get it off the ground. Its not going to happen without the consent of the IRB, RFU and FFR- at least not next season.

Unless the PRL/LNR have a massive change of heart about the ERC the best course of action is to enter into negotiations for a new tournament to begin next year with a governing body comprised of representatives from the PRL, LNR and major European Rugby Unions.

You know what that reminds me of? The ERC!  

The alternative would be to say "OK, let's talk about a successor to the ERC", and try to negotiate a jointly agreed governance position. Lux himself is a big part of the problem - the FFR's role in his re-election played a major role in the LNR's serving notice. The PRL have said they are prepared to negotiate as long as it's not via the ERC, just about everyone else has said they're prepared to negotiate on the other sticking points.

If the PRL have approached the individual teams, then I suspect it is a negotiating tactic. Do you really think they are so daft as not to know that there are union-run teams out there? But it's quite possible that if they outline their plans to the teams and the teams say to their respective unions "you know what? These are worth considering", it might break the deadlock. It's seems pretty clear that we won't get an answer if it's only the same old voices entrenching their current positions more deeply.

no kidding. you know what, i bet if sru.irfu.wru came out and said ok lets ditch the ERC and draw something up on a blank sheet of paper, nothing is off the table, everyone would be up for it. certainly the IRB and FFR would. their statements carefully avoid the ERC assertions that there will be no tournament at all outside the ERC. they just want an inclusive pan-euro tourny. and then graeme mew might be able to earn his money rather than leaving messages on voicemails.

[stub]

There is no chnce at all of any of the PRO12 eams playing in a PRL led breakaway - none wahtsoever adn the PRL know this.  the statements that some want to is clearly desperate attempts to sound as if someone will break ranks.  No one will.

No teams PRO 12 ever playing in a alternative competition featuring the PRL/LNR with equal shares/votes? I know that's not exactly what you said but I'm interested...

[Notch]

The alternative would be to say "OK, let's talk about a successor to the ERC", and try to negotiate a jointly agreed governance position.

Thats basically what I said  

[Poorfour]

The alternative would be to say "OK, let's talk about a successor to the ERC", and try to negotiate a jointly agreed governance position.

Thats basically what I said  

Excellent. Peace breaking out all over. But now it's up to the Pro12 unions to give Mr Mew that remit - McCafferty has said that they will talk as long as that's the basis.

I genuinely don't think the PRL are looking for a PRL-controlled tournament, because they know that they'll never get it (or if by some miracle they did, they couldn't sustain it). They just don't want one where the unions can dictate terms to the teams. Someone said elsewhere that the unions will still have power of veto - just not the power to impose decisions.

Since the Pro12 unions and clubs are inseparable, and since the PRL and RFU actually get on reasonably well, I am beginning to wonder if what this means is actually that they need a structure that keeps the FFR out of everyone's hair...

[TJ]

There is no chnce at all of any of the PRO12 eams playing in a PRL led breakaway - none wahtsoever adn the PRL know this.  the statements that some want to is clearly desperate attempts to sound as if someone will break ranks.  No one will.

No teams PRO 12 ever playing in a  alternative competition featuring the PRL/LNR with equal shares/votes? I know that's not exactly what you said but I'm interested...

|Nope - no chance unless the pro 122 teams get a decent amount of representation and the unions continue to run it. if the prl are prepared to compromise on those two issues well there might be - but no Rabo team will join the PRL led cup in anything like its proposed format.


We already have voting power according to representation on an equal shares basis in the erc run HC

[stub]

So you think the PRO12 will want the voting shares on the same basis as now otherwise no involvement? Or do you think there is room for compromise there?

[broadlandboy]

The ERC has done a great job in promoting rugby in europe! Not . It has seen a reduction of top flight teams in Wales/Scotland and Italy,it has seen teams withdrawn because they couldn't afford to participate with apparently no assisstance to developing the game in other unions,underselling the competition & when 2/3 of the teams are unhappy done nothing until it was to late then hope other bodies will keep it alive

[TJ]

So you think the PRO12 will want the voting shares on the same basis as now otherwise no involvement? Or do you think there is room for compromise there?

Yup - at the moment votes are on a directly proportional basis - you get the same % of the vote as you have % of the entry do you not more or less with the english and the french getting slightly more and the rest slightly less?

[Poorfour]

So you think the PRO12 will want the voting shares on the same basis as now otherwise no involvement? Or do you think there is room for compromise there?

Yup - at the moment votes are on a directly proportional basis - you get the same % of the vote as you have % of the entry do you not more or less with the english and the french getting slightly more and the rest slightly less?

Well, no - because the French clubs don't really get a meaningful vote. The FFR can choose to take back the votes at any time.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that the PRL/LNR position is along the lines of "we each have the same proportion of votes as today, but we'll multiply it up so that each club gets a vote and the unions are formally kept out of it. We know that you celts will vote with your union, but we're ok with that as long as the FFR can't hijack things."

[TJ]

the FRENCH get a vote relative to their representation - who wields that vote is irrelevant

[itsallabouttheincentives]

ok so it would be fine if it were the clubs of all 6 nations which held the votes then? perfect. pretty sure that would get the new cup up and running in short order actually. prl/lnr might even be willing to give up a bit of ground on other stuff.

[Notch]

Since the Pro12 unions and clubs are inseparable, and since the PRL and RFU actually get on reasonably well, I am beginning to wonder if what this means is actually that they need a structure that keeps the FFR out of everyone's hair...

Indeed...

[rodders]

I would like open negotiations between all parties on the future form of European competition. I would like to see the ERC continue, of course- contrary to the derision poured on them they have done an excellent job of growing the European Cup from a curiosity that lots of people thought may not survive into one of the best tournaments anywhere in any sport.

If the ERC is a dealbreaker, there's no point in the main decision makers supporting rival, unsustainable tournaments. Let's get out of fantasyland. Sky Sports will surely pay less than top dollar for a HC without the French and English clubs despite the deal being extended recently and your proposed Anglo-French Cup has so many barriers to starting next year that it would require a massively long and expensive legal battle to even get it off the ground. Its not going to happen without the consent of the IRB, RFU and FFR- at least not next season.

Unless the PRL/LNR have a massive change of heart about the ERC the best course of action is to enter into negotiations for a new tournament to begin next year with a governing body comprised of representatives from the PRL, LNR and major European Rugby Unions.

You know what that reminds me of? The ERC!  

Hear hear! 

[rodders]

Another point not really discussed is that based on the evidence of the last 4-5 seasons of the heino, is there any evidence to suggest that an anglo French tournament would be in the slightest bit competitive?

Sarries, Quins, Tigers and Saints are good sides but its hard to see anything beyond French dominance which surely would make this proposed champions cup a bit of a damp squib.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Er, that's damp squid.

[rodders]

Speak for yourself..

[Scrumpy]

Er, that's damp squib.

 
 
Corrected it for you.

[The Saint]

Another point not really discussed is that based on the evidence of the last 4-5 seasons of the heino, is there any evidence to suggest that an anglo French tournament would be in the slightest bit competitive?

Sarries, Quins, Tigers and Saints are good sides but its hard to see anything beyond French dominance which surely would make this proposed champions cup a bit of a damp squib.  

Only Leicester have the potential to win it. Possibly Sarries if they continue to strengthen their squad and continue to lay foundations for development (all of which they are currently doing). A few French teams could win it. Montpellier, Toulon, Racing-Metro, Clermont, Toulouse... Perhaps even Perpignan.

If the tournament stays the way it is, which it should, we at least have a few Irish sides capable of knocking out the French (PRL take note) .

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Er, that's damp squib.

 
 
Corrected it for you.

See that wink? It indicates I was joking.

I don't mind anyway, it's water off a duck's crack.

[rodders]

These threads are getting very pedantic.

Yesterday it was all club vs branch/province, now its squid vs squib.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

And how would they ever get to fight anyway? If it's on land, the squid's a goner and if it's in the sea, the squib doesn't stand a chance.

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