Welsh clubs back Anglo-French tournament

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24632135

Didn't see that coming, though I haven't been following this particularly closely.

beshocked wrote:Totalflanker it's a tough one. I haven't really thought hard about the possibility of the Welsh joining the English but now the Welsh have played their hand I will have to think about it.

You said earlier that it's complicated and would absolutely agree. If all of a sudden you have more than one country in a league it does bring in some additional dynamics like number of European places - I can't see England being happy if they only got two places if all welsh sides finished top 6 in AP or for that matter Wales being happy if they got no places because the top 6 were all English. That is the balancing act that exists when pro12 are negotiating and hence the need to compromise on both sides.

Comfort wrote:I wish some of you would stop making things up and then shouting them as facts..........

I quite like it when they do that.

This is exciting.
Anything comments from Dodger yet?

The Saint wrote:Guns, Comfort is correct in saying that without the WRU the Regions have no officials, insurance, funding, etc. I also know hell of a lot of fans are disapointed with the Regions. It's going to look bleak for them without a union and fan base. Though I can also tell you, a joint league with the Anglo's would certainly bring the crowds back in. We have a situation here.

the attractions to the AP and welsh regions of an anglo-welsh league are obvious. the negatives for the remaining sides in the rabo are equally obvious. if that were really to happen i think it would make the HC debacle seem like a walk in the park. it would increase the imbalance between AP/top14 and rabo12 even further in every respect and would be a massive upheaval for club and union in Irl/Sco/Ita. it doesnt seem very likely though so i dont think its worth debating too much - even more unknows about a Wanglo league than the HC/RCC.

Let the Welsh join the English league

Given we are told it a competition between clubs in leagues and the 6/6/6 split is the only way to be fair I look forward to the day of

6 French
4 Irish
4 English
2 Welsh
1 Scottish
1 Italian

teams in the competition

quinsforever wrote:

The Saint wrote:Guns, Comfort is correct in saying that without the WRU the Regions have no officials, insurance, funding, etc. I also know hell of a lot of fans are disapointed with the Regions. It's going to look bleak for them without a union and fan base. Though I can also tell you, a joint league with the Anglo's would certainly bring the crowds back in. We have a situation here.

the attractions to the AP and welsh regions of an anglo-welsh league are obvious. the negatives for the remaining sides in the rabo are equally obvious. if that were really to happen i think it would make the HC debacle seem like a walk in the park. it would increase the imbalance between AP/top14 and rabo12 even further in every respect and would be a massive upheaval for club and union in Irl/Sco/Ita. it doesnt seem very likely though so i dont think its worth debating too much - even more unknows about a Wanglo league than the HC/RCC.

And of course the English clubs would be delighted to have the Welsh regions enter the AP, and potentially taking Euro spots of them. Very accommodating clubs they are  

Cardiff Dave wrote:This is exciting.
Anything comments from Dodger yet?

He's gone rather quiet since his generous offer to act as mediator/peacekeeper/administrator/visionary for the whole shebang was met with a deafening wall of indifference.

He'll be doing something with flipcharts and powerpoint right now.

If the Welsh leave the Rabo - and I think it very unlikely then it would free up some space for others - Bucharest Wolves? Spanishand dutch national sides? 3rd scots side? I think we would be able to find people to make the league bigger given how much of a sucess it has turned out to be.

Geoff, why do you keep banging on about the Welsh leaving the Pro 12 and joining the AP?  We're on about a cup.  Why can't you distinguish between our league and the cup?  Did you want to kick us out of the Pro 12 because we play in the LV Cup too?

beshocked wrote:Totalflanker it's a tough one. I haven't really thought hard about the possibility of the Welsh joining the English but now the Welsh have played their hand I will have to think about it.

Think quick, beshocked!!  The PRL want their competition rules up and running by November don't they?  That's a lot of thinking them boys are going to have to do to find four neat places in the AP for four Welsh sides whilst possibly having to tell four English sides to get stuffed.  

I think the WRU and the rest of the Pro12 gang should call the bluff on that one and ban the regions from the Pro12 - just to see the scurrying of the AP as it tries to gently say to the regions that finally supported them - "Em...we're in a spot see.  So it's a thanks for your support but............. feck off"

We'd of course take the rRegions back into the fold  - 'cause we're nice people  ... but Boy, would it be fun watching PRL do the creative thinking to get rid of the Region hanger-ons....

i would actually have no problem with 6/6/6 even if the AP had 16 teams in it. but the money would need to get changed so that all clubs that participate in any club competition get the same base guarantee.

the benefits to the welsh regions and english clubs of a 16 club league with even bigger attendances would far outweight giving up a few european slots. that domestic league would be awesome. unfortunately i hold out very little hope of it happening.

Griff wrote:Geoff, why do you keep banging on about the Welsh leaving the Pro 12 and joining the AP?  We're on about a cup.  Why can't you distinguish between our league and the cup?  Did you want to kick us out of the Pro 12 because we play in the LV Cup too?

To be fair, Griff, I think it's actually some of the Welsh fans that are bringing this possibility to the fore,...and quins, of course. Reading Scarlet Fever may shed some light on the topic.

Its the nuclear option. If the welsh teams split from the WRU then its highly likley they would no longer be welcome in the Rabo - and the suspicion is that sweeteners have been offered tot eh welsh clubs and the speculation is this could be AP places

Munchkin wrote:

beshocked wrote:alasbut100ofus do you think that the SRU was thinking of the professional game in Scotland when they scrapped one of their clubs leaving them with only two professional clubs?

The SRU cares about themselves just as the RFU care about themselves, the WRU care about themselves, club care about themselves and so on.

The Unions are far from perfect.

I thought that was due to it being financially unsustainable? The Welsh had 5 regions originally, before the Celtic Warriors dropped out due to being bankrupt.

Some question whether the AP can really support 12 teams for the same reason. Debt is a very real issue there, although taking some money from other Unions may help ease that burden, along with this big pot of gold offered by BT. It is a question of survival for some. Not self-interest verging on greed.

I agree. The Unions are not perfect, but I would much prefer the Unions to the likes of PRL/LNR.

Spot on, Munchkin - financial necessity dictated the demise, firstly of Caley Reds, and secondly of the Borders - and you'll remember that they even tried resuscitating the latter to no great effect and further financial loss.

So no, altho I only use the SRU as an example, I think they care about far more than just themselves - after all, that is their remit and their raison d'etre!

Munchkin wrote:

Griff wrote:Geoff, why do you keep banging on about the Welsh leaving the Pro 12 and joining the AP?  We're on about a cup.  Why can't you distinguish between our league and the cup?  Did you want to kick us out of the Pro 12 because we play in the LV Cup too?

To be fair, Griff, I think it's actually some of the Welsh fans that are bringing this possibility to the fore,...and quins, of course. Reading Scarlet Fever may shed some light on the topic.

i dont think its likely. too many challenges wrt WRU, Rabo agreements, etc, etc.

but of course i personally would love it. i am 1/2 welsh and grew up in Penarth. would love nothing more than to see a vibrant domestic league with regular clashes between welsh and english sides.

Griff wrote:Geoff, why do you keep banging on about the Welsh leaving the Pro 12 and joining the AP?  We're on about a cup.  Why can't you distinguish between our league and the cup?  Did you want to kick us out of the Pro 12 because we play in the LV Cup too?

Griff, if you [regions] singularly agree to terms that your partners in Pro12 haven't agreed to [including WRU] regarding how many and who from Pro12 goes through to a European competition, then yep, you'd be liable to be kicked out of Pro12 if you were a region that went against the desires of all in the Pro12.

That's only idle speculation of course. Nobody can say why the Regions said what they said or who knew - yet.

the SRU care about the game of rugby in Scotland at all levels - they pay development officers for example. While there may be an element of ensuring their expense accounts remain sweet for the committee members its simple nonsense to say the SRU only care about themselves - the SRU represent and manage rugby accross the country

Griff wrote:Geoff, why do you keep banging on about the Welsh leaving the Pro 12 and joining the AP?  We're on about a cup.  Why can't you distinguish between our league and the cup?  Did you want to kick us out of the Pro 12 because we play in the LV Cup too?

Keep banging on about the Welsh leaving the Pro12

I have no idea what you are on about - this is the first time I have mentioned it

and in case you hadn't noticed it was a lighted dig at the English insistance all leagues are treated equally regardless of the number of countries who have teams involved - lighten up

What I have said is that if the Welsh have broken ranks without consulting the Irish I would have no compunction in us agree with the French and English about 6 Pro12 places strictly on league places - but that is a completely different matter

TJ wrote:Its the nuclear option.  If the welsh teams split from the WRU then its highly likley they would no longer be welcome in the Rabo - and the suspicion is that sweeteners have been offered tot eh welsh clubs and the speculation is this could be AP places

Hmm, I think that the real nuclear option is in fact RWC 2015 and whether the IRFU, SRU and possibly FIR abstain - that would be disastrous, likely for all, but particularly for the organisers - in fact, I'd go as far as to say that the IRB would never let that happen

TJ wrote:Its the nuclear option.  If the welsh teams split from the WRU then its highly likley they would no longer be welcome in the Rabo - and the suspicion is that sweeteners have been offered tot eh welsh clubs and the speculation is this could be AP places

The Regions can't or are struggling to survive as it is and thats WITH the WRU backing, if they split from the Union then how would they survive as I can't see the Union still funding them.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

TJ wrote:Its the nuclear option.  If the welsh teams split from the WRU then its highly likley they would no longer be welcome in the Rabo - and the suspicion is that sweeteners have been offered tot eh welsh clubs and the speculation is this could be AP places

Hmm, I think that the real nuclear option is in fact RWC 2015 and whether the IRFU, SRU and possibly FIR abstain - that would be disastrous, likely for all, but particularly for the organisers - in fact, I'd go as far as to say that the IRB would never let that happen

so you think attempting to blackmail the IRB is likely to get them on the side of IRFU, SRU, FIR  Never mind whether its a credible threat in the first place.

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:Geoff, why do you keep banging on about the Welsh leaving the Pro 12 and joining the AP?  We're on about a cup.  Why can't you distinguish between our league and the cup?  Did you want to kick us out of the Pro 12 because we play in the LV Cup too?

Griff, if you [regions] singularly agree to terms that your partners in Pro12 haven't agreed to [including WRU] regarding how many and who from Pro12 goes through to a European competition, then yep, you'd be liable to be kicked out of Pro12 if you were a region that went against the desires of all in the Pro12.

That's only idle speculation of course.  Nobody can say why the Regions said what they said or who knew - yet.

It's ALL idle speculation, Fly. That's the problem!

Anyway, I can't ever see the Welsh joining the AP for the simple reason of relegation. The English wouldn't want 'unrelegationable' (I made that up, believe it or not) teams in the league, and the Welsh wouldn't want a pro region to be relegated to the second tier. How could they then exist in the same league? Not gonna happen IMO.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Griff wrote:Geoff, why do you keep banging on about the Welsh leaving the Pro 12 and joining the AP?  We're on about a cup.  Why can't you distinguish between our league and the cup?  Did you want to kick us out of the Pro 12 because we play in the LV Cup too?

Keep banging on about the Welsh leaving the Pro12

I have no idea what you are on about - this is the first time I have mentioned it

and in case you hadn't noticed it was a lighted dig at the English insistance all leagues are treated equally regardless of the number of countries who have teams involved - lighten up

What I have said is that if the Welsh have broken ranks without consulting the Irish I would have no compunction in us agree with the French and English about 6 Pro12 places strictly on league places - but that is a completely different matter

Thinking about it like that....... maybe the poor Welsh regions were indeed set-up by their smart buddies in PRL/LNR. Maybe they were prompted to go public without consulting their partners because all along, the PRL/LNR knew what the reaction would be from IRFU (ie, no guarantees on national slots at all - a straight top six...just what PRL/LNR wanted all along.

Oh my!!! The Regions might have been goosed by their own fwiends.

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Griff wrote:Geoff, why do you keep banging on about the Welsh leaving the Pro 12 and joining the AP?  We're on about a cup.  Why can't you distinguish between our league and the cup?  Did you want to kick us out of the Pro 12 because we play in the LV Cup too?

To be fair, Griff, I think it's actually some of the Welsh fans that are bringing this possibility to the fore,...and quins, of course. Reading Scarlet Fever may shed some light on the topic.

i dont think its likely. too many challenges wrt WRU, Rabo agreements, etc, etc.

but of course i personally would love it. i am 1/2 welsh and grew up in Penarth. would love nothing more than to see a vibrant domestic league with regular clashes between welsh and english sides.

Thought that was what the LV was all about. Is that not a vibrant competition? I think the novelty of a vibrant league with the Welsh included would soon wear thin. It wouldn't be much different to playing against London Welsh, only the regions would be coming from outside of England, playing in an English league, and handing over their identity to that league. Don't know. Maybe it could work, but it seems very unlikely.

you are of course right re relegation Griff, either it exists for all teams or none of them. But just for the sake of argument, if the Welsh regions cant support 4 really competitive sides why would relegation be a problem? i bet you that in fact, attendance at welsh region matches in an expanded AP would skyrocket, and with more money, the whole strength of team, passion of supporters and everything would become like a virtuous circle, improving the club performance of all the regions.

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Griff wrote:Geoff, why do you keep banging on about the Welsh leaving the Pro 12 and joining the AP?  We're on about a cup.  Why can't you distinguish between our league and the cup?  Did you want to kick us out of the Pro 12 because we play in the LV Cup too?

To be fair, Griff, I think it's actually some of the Welsh fans that are bringing this possibility to the fore,...and quins, of course. Reading Scarlet Fever may shed some light on the topic.

i dont think its likely. too many challenges wrt WRU, Rabo agreements, etc, etc.

but of course i personally would love it. i am 1/2 welsh and grew up in Penarth. would love nothing more than to see a vibrant domestic league with regular clashes between welsh and english sides.

Thought that was what the LV was all about. Is that not a vibrant competition? I think the novelty of a vibrant league with the Welsh included would soon wear thin. It wouldn't be much different to playing against London Welsh, only the regions would be coming from outside of England, playing in an English league, and handing over their identity to that league. Don't know. Maybe it could work, but it seems very unlikely.

welsh teams getting a share of AP TV deal? bigger crowds in wales and england at club games? reduced travel? very unlikely to work? it's one of the few no-brainer ideas i have come across on this forum.

but like i said i dont think it will happen. but not because it wouldnt be successful - just because the path to get there is fraught.

Guys, maybe I wasnt clear enough, its a physical impossibility for the regions to leave the RABO and join the AP (or any other league) as they'd have to do so via the WRU who run all things rugby in Wales and enter the teams into competitions.

The regions in Wales have no say as to where they play, they negotiate with the WRU and sign a contract with them, the WRU then enter the teams into the RABO and HEC/Amlin (or whatever the next euro-competition is set to be) as they hold the contracts that relate to those competitions, no region is guarenteed a spot in any competition, bu the WRU are guarenteed entries for teams of their choosing.

There is no chance the welsh regions can leave and join the AP or Top 14 or the SxV or the fackin mickey mouse super on top amazing cup, its impossible, the WRU hold all the keys in Wales.

The only way the welsh regions could enter the AP is by being registered to the RFU, who would then provide funding, insurance and officials etc and so on with any other league/union.

SecretFly wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Griff wrote:Geoff, why do you keep banging on about the Welsh leaving the Pro 12 and joining the AP?  We're on about a cup.  Why can't you distinguish between our league and the cup?  Did you want to kick us out of the Pro 12 because we play in the LV Cup too?

Keep banging on about the Welsh leaving the Pro12

I have no idea what you are on about - this is the first time I have mentioned it

and in case you hadn't noticed it was a lighted dig at the English insistance all leagues are treated equally regardless of the number of countries who have teams involved - lighten up

What I have said is that if the Welsh have broken ranks without consulting the Irish I would have no compunction in us agree with the French and English about 6 Pro12 places strictly on league places - but that is a completely different matter

Thinking about it like that....... maybe the poor Welsh regions were indeed set-up by their smart buddies in PRL/LNR.  Maybe they were prompted to go public without consulting their partners because all along, the PRL/LNR knew what the reaction would be from IRFU (ie, no guarantees on national slots at all - a straight top six...just what PRL/LNR wanted all along.

Oh my!!!  The Regions might have been goosed by their own fwiends.

Fly, I'd like to remind you of a post/thread a while back where you criticised me for what you perceived to be a deliberate attempt to ruffle posters' feathers (which it was not, by the way). Is it time to heed your own words, or have you changed your tune?!

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:Totalflanker it's a tough one. I haven't really thought hard about the possibility of the Welsh joining the English but now the Welsh have played their hand I will have to think about it.

Think quick, beshocked!!  The PRL want their competition rules up and running by November don't they?  That's a lot of thinking them boys are going to have to do to find four neat places in the AP for four Welsh sides whilst possibly having to tell four English sides to get stuffed.  

I think the WRU and the rest of the Pro12 gang should call the bluff on that one and ban the regions from the Pro12 - just to see the scurrying of the AP as it tries to gently say to the regions that finally supported them - "Em...we're in a spot see.  So it's a thanks for your support but............. feck off"

We'd of course take the rRegions back into the fold  - 'cause we're nice people  ... but Boy, would it be fun watching PRL do the creative thinking to get rid of the Region hanger-ons....

Secretfly the policy of calling bluff has worked wonders so far hasn't it?

Munchkin I wouldn't call the LV cup that much of a vibrant competition when it's essentially 2nd string sides going head to head during the IW..... 

Comfort wrote:Guys, maybe I wasnt clear enough when I said its a physical impossibility for the regions to leave the RABO and join the AP (or any other league) as they'd have to do so via the WRU who run all things rugby in Wales and enter the teams into competitions.

The regions in Wales have no say as to where they play, they negotiate with the WRU and sign a contract with them, the WRU then enter the teams into the RABO and HEC/Amlin (or whatever the next euro-competition is set to be) as they hold the contracts that relate to those competitions, no region is guarenteed a spot in any competition, bu the WRU are guarenteed entries for teams of their choosing.

There is no chance the welsh regions can leave and join the AP or Top 14 or the SxV or the fackin mickey mouse super on top amazing cup, its impossible, the WRU hold all the keys in Wales.

no-one has suggested otherwise. it's something for the future. WRU is contracted to Rabo until that deal gets renewed. but if the WRU chose not to renew Rabo, and backed its regions to join an expanded AP, how would that be impossible?

the whole expanded AP with welsh clubs discussion came up in response to a few suggesting that the WRU will be kicked out of the rabo12 if they have somehow betrayed the others. i said i thought that would be not very bright of rabo unions, as it would drive WRR and WRU straight into the welcoming arms of the PRL.

quinsforever wrote:you are of course right re relegation Griff, either it exists for all teams or none of them. But just for the sake of argument, if the Welsh regions cant support 4 really competitive sides why would relegation be a problem? i bet you that in fact, attendance at welsh region matches in an expanded AP would skyrocket, and with more money, the whole strength of team, passion of supporters and everything would become like a virtuous circle, improving the club performance of all the regions.

But that preumes all current AP games are always big affairs with lots of money splashing around.  But no they're not - because a League is a League.  And a League is like an economy - trickle down economics... a top end earning most money through sponsorship and player deals; and a lower end, worrying about the next meal.  That's how they work.

So another four sides to add more pressure to the area between top and bottom would make every one of the 16 sides happy with everything they get in a year - finance-wise?

I don't see it.  Bigger is not always better - despite the eternal publicity that suggests it is so.  Just look at Europe - bigger sucks in more power and influence to certain areas, draining others.  Just look at America - a massive heartland of poverty made sound nice by coastal edges raking it in.  Just look at China - the new super-power with a massive growling underbelly of poverty.

Bigger ain't always better - just better for 'some'.

I do not think there is a desire to be punative. However if the WRU and the regions split then there would be no place for the regions in the Rabo

TJ wrote:I do not think there is a desire to be punative.  However if the WRU and the regions split then there would be no place for the regions in the Rabo

But would there be a place for the Union (and therefore substitute teams), as they would have done nothing wrong?

Griff wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Griff wrote:Geoff, why do you keep banging on about the Welsh leaving the Pro 12 and joining the AP?  We're on about a cup.  Why can't you distinguish between our league and the cup?  Did you want to kick us out of the Pro 12 because we play in the LV Cup too?

Keep banging on about the Welsh leaving the Pro12

I have no idea what you are on about - this is the first time I have mentioned it

and in case you hadn't noticed it was a lighted dig at the English insistance all leagues are treated equally regardless of the number of countries who have teams involved - lighten up

What I have said is that if the Welsh have broken ranks without consulting the Irish I would have no compunction in us agree with the French and English about 6 Pro12 places strictly on league places - but that is a completely different matter

Thinking about it like that....... maybe the poor Welsh regions were indeed set-up by their smart buddies in PRL/LNR.  Maybe they were prompted to go public without consulting their partners because all along, the PRL/LNR knew what the reaction would be from IRFU (ie, no guarantees on national slots at all - a straight top six...just what PRL/LNR wanted all along.

Oh my!!!  The Regions might have been goosed by their own fwiends.

Fly, I'd like to remind you of a post/thread a while back where you criticised me for what you perceived to be a deliberate attempt to ruffle posters' feathers (which it was not, by the way).  Is it time to heed your own words, or have you changed your tune?!

I'd like you to find that post/thread and recite it to me, Griff.  

I usually can take as good as I give and generally hate the idea of censorship' and, therefore, being honest about that, I find it difficult that I'd have told you to pull back from anything you might have said in the past.  I might very well have disagreed with you (my right) - but suggesting you shouldn't have said it?  I don't see it as having happened.

But prove me wrong and then I'll respond to the specific of you suggesting that perhaps I should shut up.  If you're offended by things I might say, answer them.  Hit back with points of your own.  But I'll say what I think..either in all seriousness or in jest (as jesting is the thing I'm engaged in at present )

Are we clear on all that?  Get back to me with where and when I told you to pull in your horns.

beshocked wrote:
Secretfly the policy of calling bluff has worked wonders so far hasn't it?

You're certain it hasn't?

When the WRU suprised the SRU & IRFU with the LV weren't there stern words exchanged by the SRU & IRFU to the WRU about not being happy and we could take drastic action and kick you out.

Compared to the LV this would be massive.

Also this figure of 60m for tv rights. How much was the total deal didn't think it was double that.

quinsforever wrote:welsh teams getting a share of AP TV deal? bigger crowds in wales and england at club games? reduced travel? very unlikely to work? it's one of the few no-brainer ideas i have come across on this forum.

but like i said i dont think it will happen. but not because it wouldnt be successful - just because the path to get there is fraught.

That's all very positive, quins, until you think about the possible downside. How much extra would they get from an AP tv deal than they do now in the Rabo? To compete in the AP they would need to ensure that they hold unto the existing quality players they do have without letting any of those teams they compete against tempt those same players away with bigger money offers. Would they also fall into debt? Would all 4 regions be able to maintain a place in the AP, and fight of relegation year on year? If not, what sort of monies would they then get from any tv deal, and how do they survive outside of the top tier Euro competition?

As you say though. It's all very unlikely at this point, but who knows what the future holds?

quinsforever wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

TJ wrote:Its the nuclear option.  If the welsh teams split from the WRU then its highly likley they would no longer be welcome in the Rabo - and the suspicion is that sweeteners have been offered tot eh welsh clubs and the speculation is this could be AP places

Hmm, I think that the real nuclear option is in fact RWC 2015 and whether the IRFU, SRU and possibly FIR abstain - that would be disastrous, likely for all, but particularly for the organisers - in fact, I'd go as far as to say that the IRB would never let that happen

so you think attempting to blackmail the IRB is likely to get them on the side of IRFU, SRU, FIR  Never mind whether its a credible threat in the first place.

I didn't indicate my support or otherwise for such an option, quinsforever, but I guess one might argue that declining to participate in one competition, say the RWC, might be not that much different from declining to participate in another, say the ERC?

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Griff wrote:Geoff, why do you keep banging on about the Welsh leaving the Pro 12 and joining the AP?  We're on about a cup.  Why can't you distinguish between our league and the cup?  Did you want to kick us out of the Pro 12 because we play in the LV Cup too?

Keep banging on about the Welsh leaving the Pro12

I have no idea what you are on about - this is the first time I have mentioned it

and in case you hadn't noticed it was a lighted dig at the English insistance all leagues are treated equally regardless of the number of countries who have teams involved - lighten up

What I have said is that if the Welsh have broken ranks without consulting the Irish I would have no compunction in us agree with the French and English about 6 Pro12 places strictly on league places - but that is a completely different matter

Thinking about it like that....... maybe the poor Welsh regions were indeed set-up by their smart buddies in PRL/LNR.  Maybe they were prompted to go public without consulting their partners because all along, the PRL/LNR knew what the reaction would be from IRFU (ie, no guarantees on national slots at all - a straight top six...just what PRL/LNR wanted all along.

Oh my!!!  The Regions might have been goosed by their own fwiends.

Fly, I'd like to remind you of a post/thread a while back where you criticised me for what you perceived to be a deliberate attempt to ruffle posters' feathers (which it was not, by the way).  Is it time to heed your own words, or have you changed your tune?!

I'd like you to find that post/thread and recite it to me, Griff.  

I usually can take as good as I give and generally hate the idea of censorship' and, therefore, being honest about that, I find it difficult that I'd have told you to pull back from anything you might have said in the past.  I might very well have disagreed with you (my right) - but suggesting you shouldn't have said it?  I don't see it as having happened.

But prove me wrong and then I'll respond to the specific of you suggesting that perhaps I should shut up.  If you're offended by things I might say, answer them.  Hit back with points of your own.  But I'll say what I think..either in all seriousness or in jest (as jesting is the thing I'm engaged in at present )

Are we clear on all that?  Get back to me with where and when I told you to pull in your horns.

"Griff, aren't you the guy who wrote the thread: "2 Lions games. How do you compare them?"

And didn't you write in that thread: "So which Lions team did better? The one that beat the team full of internationals (baa baas) or the one who beat a club side. Not sure myself. I think the Baa Baas game was better from a Lions point of view."

So, given that we all know (and it was clearly published in the media) that the majority of the first team that played against the Baa-Baas was Welsh players, and that the majority of the second team that played Force was Irish (something also clearly published in the media), that thread becomes, and actually did 'humourously' decend into, a comparison of Nations within the Lions framework.

If the 'one upmanship' makes your tummy grumble, then perhaps shy away from comparison articles based on national numbers in any given Lions team on any given day?"

and

"Sensitivity to offence being taken (as much as is humanly possible) will make 606V2 an easier place to be for the duration of the Lions. Tough to do I know, but there you go. The Lions by definition is as divisive as it is uniting. "


You were critical of my attempts to compare Lions performances where one team had more welsh in it than the other, as you felt that it was an emotive issue that was bound to cause offense. Your suggestion was to be more sensitive to make 606V2 an easier place. Our current topic of discussion is very sensitive, and 606V2 has become not such an easy place, so I wondered if your pantomime scripts and 'what if' scenarios do anything but fan the flames?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

TJ wrote:Its the nuclear option.  If the welsh teams split from the WRU then its highly likley they would no longer be welcome in the Rabo - and the suspicion is that sweeteners have been offered tot eh welsh clubs and the speculation is this could be AP places

Hmm, I think that the real nuclear option is in fact RWC 2015 and whether the IRFU, SRU and possibly FIR abstain - that would be disastrous, likely for all, but particularly for the organisers - in fact, I'd go as far as to say that the IRB would never let that happen

so you think attempting to blackmail the IRB is likely to get them on the side of IRFU, SRU, FIR  Never mind whether its a credible threat in the first place.

I didn't indicate my support or otherwise for such an option, quinsforever, but I guess one might argue that declining to participate in one competition, say the RWC, might be not that much different from declining to participate in another, say the ERC?

Only if it were a credible way of preventing the competition from happening. big difference. who would be really unhappy about a union pulling out of RWC? the IRB, RFU (as guarantor to IRB of revenues) and that nation's fans and players. not a credible threat in the slightest. esepcially as the tournament would have no option but to press ahead without them.

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:I do not think there is a desire to be punative.  However if the WRU and the regions split then there would be no place for the regions in the Rabo

But would there be a place for the Union (and therefore substitute teams), as they would have done nothing wrong?

If the union knew nothing i think they would be helped to set up new teams.

Who was in charge of the welsh clubs that had the rebel season and are the around the regions now

Comments about the regions joining the Premiership are rather speculative- as they'd have to serve notice to leave at the end of their deal with the Pro12, which runs for another three years. So thats the soonest the Pro12 will change. Three years time.

Are the welsh players contracted to the clubs or the union or what?

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Secretfly the policy of calling bluff has worked wonders so far hasn't it?

You're certain it hasn't?  

I can't say for certain no but from the information we have so far the bluff doesn't seem to be working.

You and other posters thought that the PRL was isolated, doesn't seem like the case at the moment does it? Of course the battle is not over yet but getting support from the Welsh regions is an important breakthrough.

They aren't contracted to the union.

Yes it's merely specualtion, as is most of this on-going discussion.

When is ERC meeting expected to be over

Griff, I remember that one.  Thanks for actually quoting it.  Haven't looked at it but I'll go on my memory of it.

So... my comment was of a kind that goes like this:

If you [Griff] don't like tet-a-tet Them V Us 'banter' which is I recall what I was responding to...yes?  Meaning I was responding to some complaints by you that Lions chat was descending into too much Them V Us? - Yes?

So I was saying to you, that if you didn't like the idea of Them V Us dogfights as regards the Lions then perhaps writing an article, like the one I quoted, would be seen as counter-intuitive to that declared belief of yours.

I wasn't telling you to stop talking, or to stop posting.  I was reminding you that sensitivities do indeed exist - I agreed with you - but I asked you to check out your own thread in that regard and see where 'offence' of the Them V Us variety might be uncovered.

I was asking you to ensure you're not offending as you ask others not to... in the interests of no hypocrisy being on show.  I don't demand that people don't say things that offend me - you were kinda demanding that though, as I recall.

A rather acedemic debate chaps.

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Secretfly the policy of calling bluff has worked wonders so far hasn't it?

You're certain it hasn't?  

I can't say for certain no but from the information we have so far the bluff doesn't seem to be working.

You and other posters thought that the PRL was isolated, doesn't seem like the case at the moment does it? Of course the battle is not over yet but getting support from the Welsh regions is an important breakthrough.

I didn't think anything beshocked...you over-rate me.  

I knew and know nothing - in common with most of us here.  I was annoyed at knowing nothing except the bits I did know from quotes by people involved in the negotiations.  In fact, what I was hearing was doing anything but give me the impression that the PRL were isolated.  So don't go misinterpreting me. Griff, does it the right way.  He finds genuine quotes, bless him.

No I didn't think PRL were isolated. That's just your bunker-mentality coming out.

TJ wrote:A rather acedemic debate chaps.

As someone else said, we have been debating (arguing) speculation and rumours for months now. Time to get back to Gats bashing instead?






Though we now have the Joe Schmidt bashing on the Irish threads