Ireland's Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

Hey all,

Haven't been on here in a while, living out in the middle east so time is short and the chances to watch rugby are a little too rare. I saw the entire 6 Nations and Autumn series but haven't seen as much pro12 or HCup as I would like. So apologies if some of my picks or reasoning are off, I can only judge on what I have seen and am more than happy to watch clips that shed more light on selections etc.

So this is one for the summer tour. I am going to go out on a limb here and say this is probably the biggest summer tour we've had in a while in terms of importance. Last year gave us a look at some lads out in North America and gave some semi meaningful game time to some individuals. Two years ago we very nearly dispelled the curse of the All Blacks and previous ones have all had merit too. This one I feel is different for a number of reasons.

1) We have a new coach who is massively system and skill based. Individuals need to learn the way he wants to play, develop into it and then become comfortable playing with it in International settings. This can't be fully achieved over two games in Argentina but those two games can help.

2) We had the oldest squad of the six nations (significantly oldest). Age is not something that should affect selection but it does slow players down and increase the likelihood of injuries in some cases. We need depth here and in some positions replacements.

3) We have a bank players who are in the 1-10 cap category. These guys need game time to get accustomed to international rugby.

4) This is our last major testing opportunity for new players before the RWC. Players will come through during the 14/15 season at HCup and Pro12 level but next years 6Nations and the majority of the Autumn series will have a fairly settled look to it with less experimentation.

This is who I'd bring to Argentina for the two test series

PROPS:

McGrath: Second choice. Has impressed but has lots to learn and the gametime as first choice will do him good. Healy knows Joe's system and needs rest.
Kilcoyne: Form appears to have fallen from last season. We want depth in this position as it could be an area of strength. Better option than Court imo.
Moore: Could well end up being first choice sooner rather than later. Still has work to do on scrummaging but is developing well. Ross to rest.
Fitzpatrick: If fit he could well end up breaking into matchday 23s. He needs a chance to work in Joe's systems and learn accordingly.

HOOKERS:

Best: An obvious choice for leadership and consistency in the front row where a lot of experimentation is happening.
Cronin: An excellent impact option and deserves to tour.
Strauss: Needs further gametime at international level following his heart condition. A very talented player.

LOCKS:

O'Connell: Captain but among a number who need to mold themselves into Joe's systems still. It's still early days yet regarding new playing style.
Toner: His learning curve is rocketing and this should be allowed to continue.
Henderson: A much more dynamic player that should be explored to give us a different option in selection. Will get gametime there in Ulster 14/15.
Tuohy: I don't think he is back yet but neither is Ryan and like Hendy, Tuohy offers something different in a Hines/Thorn style.

BACKROW:

O'Mahony: Excellent player who is still learning Joe's style and about international rugby. Has a lot of growing to do imo but can become outstanding.
O'Donnell: An exciting and different option and one that should be nurtured to give Schmidt selection choices in horses for courses scenarios.
Henry: Excellent in the 6N, can kick on from this imo.
Murphy: A dynamic, powerful and versatile player that could be perfect for a world cup squad.
Heaslip: Leadership and consistency required much in the same way Best offers this. High standard and versatile playing style.

SCRUMHALVES:

Murray: An all round excellent player and first choice.
Reddan: Playing quite well and doing all the basics really well, needs to gain consistency and show he can excel when his pack are being chewed up.
Marmion: The most potential of all 9s in Ireland. Needs to be given gametime to see what he can do and possibly prepare him for more regular international gametime.

FLYHALVES:

Jackson: Leaving Sexton to rest. Jackson should start as first choice. An excellent player who has more potential and needs time with joe.
Madigan: Needs time to get back to his best and experience in high intensity rugby environments.

CENTRES:

Marshall: Needs gametime as while he has the raw materials he has lots to learn and should be aiming to challenge Darcy more.
Henshaw: My choice for the Irish 13 jersey this summer. Needs gametime at this level and time with Joe. One of my favourite players.

BACK 3:

Zebo: Needs gametime with Joe and to be in this camp. That being said needs to learn a lot before hand and McFadden could get into this squad.
Fitzgerald: Injury dependent for rest of season. Down as back up centre cover too. Could be simply excellent but needs gametime to prove his class.
Earls: Possibly best winger in Ireland in January. I really want to see him back in.
Bowe: Again seen as centre cover. Needs time with Joe and admist lots of good wingers needs to show he is one cut above the rest.
Kearney Jr: Big brother given a rest as he is a clear first choice. Dave given the chance to show he can play 15.
Trimble: Opportunity to show that he is top class after an unbelievable six nations championship.


MAIN GOALS:

1) Come away with a series win.
2) To get options at centre.
3) To create depth at loosehead prop and give Moore/Fitzpatrick the opportunity to prove they are better than Ross.
4) To improve the quality of halfbacks through gametime and time in camp.
5) To incorporate players into the new Irish way of playing the game.

What do people think?
What are peoples main goals.

Sin é wrote:

Submachine wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Submachine wrote:The thing is though, a wingers most important job is defence.

Eh.. is that a joke?  This is why the SH will always be dominant and why we are so far behind, they have the mindset to pick playmakers and finishers, not defensive walls with no flair.

The back three should be there to primarily score tries, and the best players in those positions are not all great defenders.

I think you're giving me a bit too much credit in thinking a comment I make here could influence an entire hemispheres rugby philosophy.   
Every game starts with a draw. Wing is the most exposed position on the pitch and therefore defence is the most important aspect IMO.
A team like New Zealand don't need to prioritise a wingers defence as they don't usually give opposition teams too much opportunity to attack out wide. The fact that Zebo had to make 9 tackles in a game against a second string Argentina would back up my point.

Wing isn't the most exposed position on the pitch. The most exposed position on the pitch is the 10 and the 12 & 13 channel. The 13 channel is by far the most difficult to defend.

Well if a winger has to make a tackle on the open side it's usually open space on the outside if he doesn't. Each of this other positions have team mates inside and outside. 13 is a defensive priority as if his man gets outside him it is a two one one v the winger. So while it's important I still say wing is the MOST exposed.

SecretFly wrote:Only an Irish thread could have orgasms about delicious, delectable, sultry and sexy defensive systems  Another difference between our mentality and that of the New Zealanders!

They take the defence as the absolute bare minimum.

They turned it off last night.  Must have overheated and they closed it down to preserve the software.

oops...you meant the All Blacks, didn't you... sorry for bouncing there.

I haven't seen the game. I have to admit I'm surprised Argentina were remotely close given this is a very weak side that even includes amateur players (most of the top side are being rested for the RC).

My question is how much do you expect Ireland to improve in the second test? My feeling is a lot. I'm assuming a lot of players backed up from the pro 12 final. So another week together in the Irish camp should be huge.

The team I would chose for the second test would be

McGrath-Best-Ross
Henderson-POC
Diack-Heaslip-Henry
Marmion-Sexton
Marshall-Cave
Zebo-Kearney-Trimble

Varley-Kilcoyne-Ah You-Toner-Murphy-Murray-Madigan-McFadden

Joe has some different ideas though it must seem

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/schmidt-set-to-ring-changes-for-second-argentina-test-1.1825128

Irishtimes team looks like this from what I can gather

McGrath-Best-Ross
POC-Toner
Ruddock-Heaslip-Henry
Reddan-Sexton
Reid-Cave
McFadden-Kearney-Trimble

Herring-Cronin-Ah You-Henderson-Murphy-Marmion-Madigan-Zebo

It's a shame because I feel Henderson and Diack deserve another shot after they performed very well, but its about seeing as many players as possible.

So Sexton is not an injury worry? Good news there then.

That said, I would like to see JS start Marmion - Madigan to give them some time in the first team.

Has anyone else noticed just how much Heaslip is being driven back and turned over in contact recently? He was always very good in this area but I have noticed it a lot in international matches.

I can't think of a single time other than the example from the Argentina game where he has been driven back.......can't think of any examples for Leinster either.......

Notch- I'd love to have seen a partnership of Toner and Henderson just for a game to see what would have happened. How they would have dealt with the pressure and can share the duties that POC does so well.

Diack looked really good but Ruddock has been in great form all year so deserves some time. Murphy could well drop out altogether.

I have noticed it on a number of occasions myself. It stands out to me because he has always been incredibly solid in that regard so when it happens, I notice it more than I would any other player. In the 6N it happened a few times. Not a slight on him, which is probably how you took it, its just something that I have noticed in recent Internationals.

Notch wrote:It's a shame because I feel Henderson and Diack deserve another shot after they performed very well, but its about seeing as many players as possible.

I think the teams were selected in advance Notch to try out certain combinations.

Agree think Diack and Henderson were two of the few positives from the last game along with the scrum.

Thought we might see Zebo at 15 but forgot Kearney was on tour.

Mixed bag for Marshall and Cave. Exposed in defence a few times but some glimpses of quality too, don't think Joe will be overly impressed though. Cave gets another chance though which confirms my feeling he's leapfrogged Marshall in the pecking order,

Decent enough win but the coaches will be concerned how easily our backs were exposed. Trimble and Sexton won't be happy with their defence but generally we were at sixes and sevens at times with the pace and power of the pumas carriers.

We definitely need to find a bit more physicality and pace from somewhere. Overall we ground it out so job done.

Submachine wrote:
Well if a winger has to make a tackle on the open side it's usually open space on the outside if he doesn't. Each of this other positions have team mates inside and outside. 13 is a defensive priority as if his man gets outside him it is a two one one v the winger. So while it's important I still say wing is the MOST exposed.

See what your saying but generally the wing defends with his outside shoulder, so although he has to defend in space he should be able to use the touchline in most instances and have his covering defenders on the inside.

By contrast the 13 needs to be strong of either shoulder and defend with space on either side. If you get broke through the 13 channel it is harder for the scrambling defence because you'll likely end up with a 2 on 1 with the full back.

Agree though that wingers need to be very strong defensively these days,

From an Ulster perspective the big winners form this tour will be Henderson and Diack.

They could easily give Schmidt some really flexibility for the World Cup re lock and backrow. Diack showed the benefit of a third jumper

Could see him going with something like - POC, Toner, Ryan/Tuohy, Henderson, Diack, Heaslip, Ruddock, POM, Henry, SOB

Diack doesn't make it as one of the best players but an ability to play Lock, 6 and 8 is a real bonus.
Schmidt likes flexibility e.g McFadden in the backs.

The big loser is Marshall - cant see him starting at 12 for Ulster next year let alone Ireland

rodders wrote:

Submachine wrote:
Well if a winger has to make a tackle on the open side it's usually open space on the outside if he doesn't. Each of this other positions have team mates inside and outside. 13 is a defensive priority as if his man gets outside him it is a two one one v the winger. So while it's important I still say wing is the MOST exposed.

See what your saying but generally the wing defends with his outside shoulder, so although he has to defend in space he should be able to use the touchline in most instances and have his covering defenders on the inside.

By contrast the 13 needs to be strong of either shoulder and defend with space on either side. If you get broke through the 13 channel it is harder for the scrambling defence because you'll likely end up with a 2 on 1 with the full back.

Agree though that wingers need to be very strong defensively these days,  

Touchline is often a wingers best friend but I think a scrambling defence finds it easier to defend a line break in the 13 channel. It will be closer to the ruck/scrum/lineout which gives retreating backrows and hookers more of a chance to make a tackle.

Was Marshall bad in defense aside from that one high profile missed tackle?

I'd love to hear when Heaslip was been driven back like the was against the Pumas.

Rodders that's an excellent summary of the defensive priorities in the backs.

Submachine wrote:
Touchline is often a wingers best friend but I think a scrambling defence finds it easier to defend a line break in the 13 channel. It will be closer to the ruck/scrum/lineout which gives retreating backrows and hookers more of a chance to make a tackle.

No really because if the 13 makes a break it leaves the fullback flat footed and the wing clear on the outside and his support players tracking the inside making it difficult for the covering defence to know who to pick up.

If the wing breaks on the outside, he has no outside support which makes it easier for the cover to cut off the pass inside so it essentially becomes a foot race down the touchline - one a good fullback should earn his crust at.

A wing shouldn't get beat on the outside, but its better to get exposed down the wing than through the outside centre.

Ward was in the Indo this morning touting McGrath for a switch to TH! We are getting to a position where we have a strong old-timer in Ross, a strong kid in Moore and a bit of depth with Ah You and journos start spoofing about converting a LH to a TH rubbish. How many LHs have we ruined (or at least seriously impaired) by trying to force them over to the TH side?

Just because they are both props doesn't mean they are inter-changeable. A LH attacks one shoulder of a TH, while a TH has to defend a full LH and half the Hooker every time there is a scrum. There is a reason they anchor a scrum. And this sh!te about what the player gives you in the loose! Do they remember the days when our scrum would fold in half because we didn't give it enough respect. A TH that is great in the loose is pointless if he gives away penalties at the bread-n-butter.

McGrath is a big lump in fairness - maybe he's young enough to learn? Certainly would be handy if he could...

Geoff have been saying this recently about Marshall. I think he's still well in the frame but if Schmidt takes two centres plus a utility to the RWC I believe it will be D'arcy + Cave + 1 of Payne/Henshaw.

If Payne does play 13 next year at Ulster I really think it may be more at Marshalls expense rather than Caves unless he ups his game. For whatever reason (attitude, head injuries?) the coaches are starting to lose a bit of faith in him.

That said he's still well in the picture and still a young guy, Olding and Payne will create serious competition next season though. He always looks more comfortable alongside Jackson though.

Lovely pass for Sextons try though.

Nachos Jones wrote:

Has anyone else noticed just how much Heaslip is being driven back and turned over in contact recently? He was always very good in this area but I have noticed it a lot in international matches.

Testosterone levels must have peaked a month ago.  It's all down hill from here on in for the World Title Testosterone Levels Champ.

SecretFly wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

Has anyone else noticed just how much Heaslip is being driven back and turned over in contact recently? He was always very good in this area but I have noticed it a lot in international matches.

Testosterone levels must have peaked a month ago.  It's all down hill from here on in for the World Title Testosterone Levels Champ.

You will be fine Fly, I am sure yours are still way through the roof.

geoff998rugby wrote:From an Ulster perspective the big winners form this tour will be Henderson and Diack.

They could easily give Schmidt some really flexibility for the World Cup re lock and backrow. Diack showed the benefit of a third jumper

Could see him going with something like - POC, Toner, Ryan/Tuohy, Henderson, Diack, Heaslip, Ruddock, POM, Henry, SOB

Diack doesn't make it as one of the best players but an ability to play Lock, 6 and 8 is a real bonus.
Schmidt likes flexibility e.g McFadden in the backs.

The big loser is Marshall - cant see him starting at 12 for Ulster next year let alone Ireland

I think Henderson was a winner coming out of the 6Ns and the end of the season with Ulster. Epic performances, I see him play and think he is the heir-apparent to POC. Diack gave a good showing but is still very much on the outside looking in. Henderson/Toner/POC are the three best lock options, will POC make it to the RWC I'm not so sure he body will stay in piece for that long (though hope I'm proved wrong).

This game was for Diack, Jordi, Marshall & Cave (as a combo) and Felix.

Diack put in a solid shift. Jordi didn't do anything particularly highlight reel worthy but maybe his fundamentals and stats will show a strong display. The centre combo for me should have been stronger considering how much they've played together. To say Reid(!) is being mentioned for a start is quite frankly shocking. He is great going forward, don't get me wrong but defensively that kid isn't up to scratch at HCup level, let alone international. Felix in my mind was poor as well, he needed to rubber stamp himself as the back up full back option but that display would have him behind Henshaw, Zebo, Payne and possibly even D Kearney.

JS likes the detail though so it isn't really high profile moments that will win/lose a place in the squad.

"McGrath-Best-Ross
POC-Toner
Ruddock-Heaslip-Henry
Reddan-Sexton
Reid-Cave
McFadden-Kearney-Trimble"

That Times team looks promising.  I think if it's true then it's a design to push Argentina back off us and impose our tempo on them.  I was hoping that the first game was more getting details sorted than a blueprint of how we might play these guys if really putting it up to them.  So I HOPE we decide to make these Argentinians defensively puff much more in the second game.  
Will look forward to seeing what Reid can do and having McFadden on from the start.

Nachos Jones wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

Has anyone else noticed just how much Heaslip is being driven back and turned over in contact recently? He was always very good in this area but I have noticed it a lot in international matches.

Testosterone levels must have peaked a month ago.  It's all down hill from here on in for the World Title Testosterone Levels Champ.

You will be fine Fly, I am sure yours are still way through the roof.

I wish, Nachos! It's only a wish these days. The spirit is willing and all that jazz

rodders wrote:

Submachine wrote:
Touchline is often a wingers best friend but I think a scrambling defence finds it easier to defend a line break in the 13 channel. It will be closer to the ruck/scrum/lineout which gives retreating backrows and hookers more of a chance to make a tackle.

No really because if the 13 makes a break it leaves the fullback flat footed and the wing clear on the outside and his support players tracking the inside making it difficult for the covering defence to know who to pick up.

If the wing breaks on the outside, he has no outside support which makes it easier for the cover to cut off the pass inside so it essentially becomes a foot race down the touchline - one a good fullback should earn his crust at.

A wing shouldn't get beat on the outside, but its better to get exposed down the wing than through the outside centre.

 

The point we were debating was which position is most exposed. I stand by my view that it is the wing. A break in the centres provides more opportunity to link up with team mates but beating the wing on the outside should leave at most a one v one with the covering fullback which the winger will usually win.

I dont think Jones will be anywhere near the WC squad.

Payne and Henshaw will be the 15 options besides R. Kearney.
Again players offering flexibilty a Schmidt trait

SecretFly wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

Has anyone else noticed just how much Heaslip is being driven back and turned over in contact recently? He was always very good in this area but I have noticed it a lot in international matches.

Testosterone levels must have peaked a month ago.  It's all down hill from here on in for the World Title Testosterone Levels Champ.

You will be fine Fly, I am sure yours are still way through the roof.

I wish, Nachos!  It's only a wish these days.  The spirit is willing and all that jazz  

Nah, keep the faith Fly, you can still do it

Submachine wrote:The point we were debating was which position is most exposed. I stand by my view that it is the wing. A break in the centres provides more opportunity to link up with team mates but beating the wing on the outside should leave at most a one v one with the covering fullback which the winger will usually win.

Yes and that answer to that point is that the 13 has to defend on both sides of the pitch, off either shoulder, in space and a good way out from his back row.

Therefore on balance he has the greater defensive challenges and a misread from the 13 is potentially more costly than any other back, with the 12 having more support from the backrow and the wing having the touchline and cover defence to help out.

The touchline is the defender who never moves.  He can be caught out more often than people realise.  He doesn't react to sharp changes of attacking direction or attackers running straight down along his channel.  Wings can never trust their touchlines to be there for them but yet they always have to be there at the right time to help their touchline

Keith Earls has still never worked out how to beat the touchline .....

Anyways pretty sloppy performance but enough positives to build on. Wouldn't be surprised to see us turned over if we perform at the same level next week though.

If we play at the same level next week, Schmidt can take a hike to Kidney's retirement home.

Schmidt seems happy with what he saw, which surprises the heck out of me because I thought overall it was a shambles of a game.  BUT..that he seems happy enough suggests to me I should also be happy because he is God!...*ahem*   ... I mean because it suggests he was looking for certain specific things in the first game and saw them happen.  

So now that he used a game to do some intricate needle work on future details he might need in future games.... maybe he'll let the players blow off more instinctive steam and really hunt down the Argentinians.  Here's hoping.

I think Schmidt will not be happy - he just will be dealing with it pragmatically not airing concerns in public.

It's not easy to look good against Argentina. The performance wasn't good enough but has to be kept in context.

A bit like the Lions warm up games - there are new combinations, we are at the end of a long season and these pumas were playing the game of their lives for 50 min.

Sometimes you just have to suck it up and the impressive thing is we didn't panic. We just sucked up the physicality and stuck to the plan.

SecretFly wrote:If we play at the same level next week, Schmidt can take a hike to Kidney's retirement home.

Schmidt seems happy with what he saw, which surprises the heck out of me because I thought overall it was a shambles of a game.  BUT..that he seems happy enough suggests to me I should also be happy because he is God!...*ahem*   ... I mean because it suggests he was looking for certain specific things in the first game and saw them happen.  

So now that he used a game to do some intricate needle work on future details he might need in future games.... maybe he'll let the players blow off more instinctive steam and really hunt down the Argentinians.  Here's hoping.

Joe never puts the boot into his players in post-match interviews after a poor display. He equally doesn't sing their praises too much after a good display. The video analysis of that game will be scary and there will be no place for players to hide. I'd say right about now they are seeing what Joe is really like behind the scenes.

Yup O'Connell said as much.

From Plant Rugby's Hot or Not section.

Not Hot
Glen Jackson's decision: There were shades of Jared Payne taking out Alex Goode as Argentine number eight Benjamin Macome blundered into an airborne Andrew Trimble on Saturday. Macome's eyes weren't on the ball as it descended from a Garryowen, where Payne's had been, instead they remained on Trimble, who was unceremoniously felled from a height.
Referees cannot rule on intent, nor should they take over-prescriptive measures that risk removing the contest element from the game. That's why we have no quarrel with the first Puma on the scene, Manuel Montero, who challenged Trimble for the catch.
But we reckon Macome's actions were dangerous - potentially catastrophic - and warranted further punishment than Jackson's yellow...your view?

He's not shy of saying he nervous when he's nervous, or saying he's not happy with overall performance when not happy though.  He's ruthlessly honest in post match assessments.
He specifically stated that he was satisfied overall and saw some good stuff, and would look at the indivdual detail later (around about now! )  
But ironically, when you realise he couldn't be happy with what he saw, you understand that he must be happy with things he set out to accomplish in the first game.  I'd have to work hard to see them...perhaps it was even Zebo and his 9/1.... but I'm satisfied that he was genuinely satisfied.  Which suggests he knows his side can do much better when asked to.

We wait to find out.

Jaysus...just read over some of the comments....

Managed to watch some highlights and read reports and looked at stats...all seem to point to Zebo doing well in attack probably not brilliant in defence but fairly effective overall...

Obviously due to previous discussions on here there is some interest in Zebo but I didnt see Zebo making any try losing mistakes...

No one wants to comment on Trimble and Sexton ballsing up for the first try now that was comical defending, Marshall and Cave were fairly porous and Jordi Murphy looked good for about 10 seconds due to poor argentinian defence....

Looked like a mixed bag overall....scmidht name checking some players in his post match interview didnt seem to make sense given some performances but then again he does have his favourites.

wingers do have to defend vertically as well though where as 13s don't to the same extent. Dropping back for the kick and getting up into the line when the ball is played wide that makes it tough. Then if the ball goes the other way, sweeping in behind the defensive line

ME-109 wrote:Jaysus...just read over some of the comments....

Managed to watch some highlights and read reports and looked at stats...all seem to point to Zebo doing well in attack probably not brilliant in defence but fairly effective overall...

Obviously due to previous discussions on here there is some interest in Zebo but I didnt see Zebo making any try losing mistakes...

No one wants to comment on Trimble and Sexton ballsing up for the first try now that was comical defending, Marshall and Cave were fairly porous and Jordi Murphy looked good for about 10 seconds due to poor argentinian defence....

Looked like a mixed bag overall....scmidht name checking some players in his post match interview didnt seem to make sense given some performances but then again he does have his favourites.

Fair comments ME.  Nothing to needle about there.

Glad you finally got to see the.....game (well highlights of it).  A classic....  

SecretFly wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Jaysus...just read over some of the comments....

Managed to watch some highlights and read reports and looked at stats...all seem to point to Zebo doing well in attack probably not brilliant in defence but fairly effective overall...

Obviously due to previous discussions on here there is some interest in Zebo but I didnt see Zebo making any try losing mistakes...

No one wants to comment on Trimble and Sexton ballsing up for the first try now that was comical defending, Marshall and Cave were fairly porous and Jordi Murphy looked good for about 10 seconds due to poor argentinian defence....

Looked like a mixed bag overall....scmidht name checking some players in his post match interview didnt seem to make sense given some performances but then again he does have his favourites.

Fair comments ME.  Nothing to needle about there.

Glad you finally got to see the.....game (well highlights of it).  A classic....  

Yeah I even fast forwarded the highlights....

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:wingers do have to defend vertically as well though where as 13s don't to the same extent. Dropping back for the kick and getting up into the line when the ball is played wide that makes it tough. Then if the ball goes the other way, sweeping in behind the defensive line

Good point.

ME-109 wrote:Jaysus...just read over some of the comments....

Managed to watch some highlights and read reports and looked at stats...all seem to point to Zebo doing well in attack probably not brilliant in defence but fairly effective overall...

Obviously due to previous discussions on here there is some interest in Zebo but I didnt see Zebo making any try losing mistakes...

Zebes did ok, certainly worked hard at popping up around the field and almost created a try for Cave. But to be honest for all his much vaunted pace, offered the cutting edge of a blunt spoon and wasn't even able to outsprint the puma front row with 5 yards of space. We need Dave K back desperately for a bit of attacking threat.

My take is none of the backs (11 to 15) come out of that without defensive lapses.

The difference is Cave, Zebo and Trimble looked dangerous in attack
Marshall and Jones, by and large, didn't

The first three did ok, the other two were poor

rodders wrote: We need Dave K back desperately for a bit of attacking threat.

Stop taking the pi$$ - this a serious debate   

Marshall was a mixed bag in attack. Good break off a planned move, good take and give off another planned move for the Sexton try. But other than that was quiet and forced at least one pass which didn't go to hand.

Notch wrote:Marshall was a mixed bag in attack. Good break off a planned move, good take and give off another planned move for the Sexton try. But other than that was quiet and forced at least one pass which didn't go to hand.

I'll let you guys unscramble the words

Uatsrt Dnigol

First guy to get it, gets a   

Its either Stuart Olding or Gordon D'arcy....

I can't accept an either or answer Rodders....

A game!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh I do so love games!!!!!!!!!!!


Em, Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin ?

Heard a report that Marshall got a head injury (but not concussion) during the game and is being monitored. Who is more likely to start if he is ruled out.

The centres will be Reid and Cave