England v Uruguay

First topic message reminder :

   
ENGLAND v URUGUAY
10 October 2015
KO: 20:00
City of Manchester Stadium, Manchester

Referee: Chris Pollock (New Zealand)
Touch judges: Angus Gardner (Australia) & Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
Television match official: George Ayoub (Australia)

Live on ITV

Teams:

ENGLAND

15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 18 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap)
12. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 34 caps)
11. Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 9 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 16 caps)
09. Danny Care (Harlequins, 52 caps)

01. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 26 caps)
02. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps)
03. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 55 caps)
04. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 27 caps)
05. Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 28 caps)
06. James Haskell (Wasps, 61 caps)
07. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 42 caps)
08. Nick Easter (Harlequins, 53 caps)

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 2 caps)
17. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 36 caps)
18. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 43 caps)
19. George Kruis (Saracens, 9 caps)
20. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 41 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 26 caps)
22. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
23. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 42 caps)

URUGUAY

1. Mateo Sanguinetti
2. Carlos Arboleya
3. Mario Sagario
4. Santiago Vilaseca (captain)
5. Jorge Zerbino
6. Juan Manuel Gaminara
7. Matias Beer
8. Alejandro Nieto

9. Agustin Ormaechea
10. Felipe Berchesi
11. Rodrigo Silva
12. Andres Vilaseca
13. Joaquin Prada
14. Santiago Gibernau
15. Gaston Mieres

16. Nicolas Klappenbach
17. Oscar Duran
18. Alejo Corral
19. Mathias Palomeque
20. Diego Magno
21. Agustin Alonso
22. Alejo Duran
23. Manuel Blengio
*********************************************************************
With England now being "OUT" OF THE RUGBY WORLD CUP. They clearly have nothing too lose.

SO all the players in the 31 who have not played a game yet should be given their chance.

The likes of Danny Care starting at 9 and Wigglworth on the bench.

Easter and Kruse, Slade etc etc.

what do you think.

What have they got too lose?

Nothing.

Dear god....Farrell at 12?????

Poor side that mind!!

So he is persisting with 10. Ford and 12. Farrell...

I stick by 100 points.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I stick by 100 points.

To who?

England. Oh I get it, it's a joke. Because Wales managed to scrape past us we're useless. Very good. I'm laughing now honest.

Farrell Snr: "Look Lancs, I put my reputation on the line this week to save you from embarrassment when I lied about me not running the team! So let's get this straight. You owe me. My son is not going to be dropped from no last game in this World Cup so that all blame for the failure is landed on his doorstep. He is 12 and I'm not discussing it anymore!!!"

So even against Uruguay they couldn't even take away Tom Young's safety blanket away from him (Parling). How precious.

If there is one reason so show how inept Lancaster's decision making has been, its this one selection.

SecretFly wrote:Farrell Snr: "Look Lancs, I put my reputation on the line this week to save you from embarrassment when I lied about me not running the team!  So let's get this straight.  You owe me.  My son is not going to be dropped from no last game in this World Cup so that all blame for the failure is landed on his doorstep.  He is 12 and I'm not discussing it anymore!!!"

To be fair Farrell has played well the entire tournament. Played well vs. Wales, against AUS he was hardly to blame.

Has he missed a kick in any match?

Is he a centre?

I'd say the general twist on it is that he didn't put enough of an attacking shape on the games. Was there to push off sides rather than seriously attack them for extended periods.

Fly halfs do more than kick fa. And Tom Youngs has played well. You're got to let your prejudices go. Can you even bring yourself to rate Vunipola yet?

Will we ever see Burgess in an England shirt again?

Speaking of England shirts - I have a red England RWC shirt for sale if anyone is interested, doesn't fit anymore as over the last two weeks I have lost a lot of weight through worry and stress.

RubyGuby wrote:Burgess nowhere to be seen

Sounds like he's had enough the abuse and is off to Leeds Rhinos.

rodders wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Burgess nowhere to be seen

Sounds like he's had enough the abuse and is off to Leeds Rhinos.

Super League salary cap just £1.65m

rodders wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Burgess nowhere to be seen

Sounds like he's had enough the abuse and is off to Leeds Rhinos.

He's welcome at the Rhinos any time! He's free for the Grand Final on Saturday now too

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fly halfs do more than kick fa. And Tom Youngs has played well. You're got to let your prejudices go. Can you even bring yourself to rate Vunipola yet?

I don't see how Farrell played badly no? England didn't lose because of Farrell, they lost because of their forwards... how their scrum got marched, how their lineout was heavily conservative because Youngs can't throw outside of middle-front channels. Would they have won with Ford vs. Wales... maybe but with no Joseph I don't see how.

I think Youngs has played well... in the loose. Very well. But that doesn't make up for his obvious flaws in the set piece. Its the whole Lee Mears thing.

This is the thing 7.5. Before the tournament I said England would suffer set piece. I said Youngs was a total liability. You took the opposite view point and try and regularly mocked me for my assertions. I take no pleasure in being right. Yet you still somehow think I'm wrong. Good for you.

In terms of vunipola. 20 mins vs. a tiring Fiji doesn't make a world class player. He was decent vs. Wales too, but Faletau was better. The truth is... if he was a saffa he'd be no where near the team just like I said pre-tournament.  He has improved I'll give him that but the lack of professionalism is striking. People go wow... he's down to 120kg!!! Good on him.

He's been a pro rugby player in the side for 2 years. If he can't shed puppy fat in that team it just strikes of someone who is not taking their sport seriously.

And then who is the first player to start putting the daggers in....

He says out of context as they all do. Its a further example of his lack of professionalism which blights his development. Good talent, world class not even close.

Have you ever seen a 3N backrow player in such condition?

LondonTiger wrote:

rodders wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Burgess nowhere to be seen

Sounds like he's had enough the abuse and is off to Leeds Rhinos.

Super League salary cap just £1.65m

Yea he's paying them to take him

fa0019 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fly halfs do more than kick fa. And Tom Youngs has played well. You're got to let your prejudices go. Can you even bring yourself to rate Vunipola yet?

I don't see how Farrell played badly no? England didn't lose because of Farrell, they lost because of their forwards... how their scrum got marched, how their lineout was heavily conservative because Youngs can't throw outside of middle-front channels. Would they have won with Ford vs. Wales... maybe but with no Joseph I don't see how.

I think Youngs has played well... in the loose. Very well. But that doesn't make up for his obvious flaws in the set piece. Its the whole Lee Mears thing.

This is the thing 7.5. Before the tournament I said England would suffer set piece. I said Youngs was a total liability. You took the opposite view point and try and regularly mocked me for my assertions. I take no pleasure in being right. Yet you still somehow think I'm wrong. Good for you.

In terms of vunipola. 20 mins vs. a tiring Fiji doesn't make a world class player. He was decent vs. Wales too, but Faletau was better. The truth is... if he was a saffa he'd be no where near the team just like I said pre-tournament.  He has improved I'll give him that but the lack of professionalism is striking. People go wow... he's down to 120kg!!! Good on him.

He's been a pro rugby player in the side for 2 years. If he can't shed puppy fat in that team it just strikes of someone who is not taking their sport seriously.

And then who is the first player to start putting the daggers in....

He says out of context as they all do. Its a further example of his lack of professionalism which blights his development. Good talent, world class not even close.

Have you ever seen a 3N backrow player in such condition?

Youngs was fine in the lineout as didn't do much wrong in the scrum. It's Marler and the 2nd row who have mostly had the finger pointed at them. Midfield was a mess but Ford was missed as well vs Aus as he proved when coming on. He's just a bit better across the board than Farrell bar defence and kicking. There's no bid difference in quality between Farrell and Ford but we probabl;y should ahve stuck with the same game plan and allowed Ford to continue. I still suggest you actually start to watch the prem which would give you a better balance when judging players.

Vunipola was the best forward on the pitch when he was on by the way. Big shift in momentum when he went off.

In absence of Barritt, to be starting Farrell at 12 instead of Burgess looks to me like the final confirmation by Lancaster that he made mistakes in his squad selection. If Barritt was injured, was the intention to always look at Farrell as a 12? Against Aus or NZ???
Good to see the squad being used, shame it's in such dire circumstances.

And for my two-pence on the whole matter - Attwood and Burrell must be laughing themselves stupid at home...

maestegmafia wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Uruguay play Fiji tonight then England on Saturday.

Wow!!! 

Only three days rest to play teams ranked ten and twelve places higher than them. Seems remarkably unfair on Uruguay and increadibly kind on England.

World rugby seriously need to re organise the down time between games because it is ridiculous to expect any team to be even vaguely competitive in both fixtures, especially one with so few resources.

I think there's little difference between the teams ranked 8th-20th and on their day they can all beat each other

Yes but the higher ranked team having seven days rest compared with the lower ranked team getting three is ridiculous.

This is the worst fixture arrangement so far in the tournament. And in the favour of the hosts.

If England had been able to remain in the chase at this point it would have given them a huge advantage to gain points.

Maybe they are trying to even things out by not carding players against England but banning them afterwards to benefit the next team as happened after both the Fiji and Australia games

bathmad wrote:In absence of Barritt, to be starting Farrell at 12 instead of Burgess looks to me like the final confirmation by Lancaster that he made mistakes in his squad selection. If Barritt was injured, was the intention to always look at Farrell as a 12? Against Aus or NZ???
Good to see the squad being used, shame it's in such dire circumstances.

And for my two-pence on the whole matter - Attwood and Burrell must be laughing themselves stupid at home...

But bathmad,

This is something he is always guilty of. Having players in his squad who he never uses. For example , as ive mentioned many times before. Callum Clark. He has been in the squad for a long time now...yet played his first game in the WC warm ups???

How does that work? You have a player in your squad who is playing very well for his club yet you have no idea how he can perform for England...yet he is in the WC extended squad.

It baffles me.

I will try to enjoy the Uruguay match, but I would quimble again over the centres.  Why not Burgess rather than Farrell since he is an inside centre.  Would have liked to have seen Slade and Joseph.

Ford, Slade, JJ. Instantly take this team to another level, you have nothing to lose Stuart and it offers handling, pace, threat and two kicking options.

Before anyone says Slade hasn't played 12; he has played 10 and 13 very well, he does basically everything and he is one of those type of players (NZ/Aus have a lot) who can slot in anywhere.

And Slades an excellent defender and very brave with it. Offers a huge boot as well. And Burgess isn't a centre!

No 7&1/2 wrote:And Slades an excellent defender and very brave with it. Offers a huge boot as well. And Burgess isn't a centre!

I think the England management may have realised about Burgess now! I wouldn't like to see him being made a fall guy though, it's not his fault they picked him in a midfield that had zero balance. Burgess, go back to Bath, become the rampaging 6 we know you can be and let's all forget the last 3 weeks........

No, he's fine in trucking it up and tackling. Fine ain't good enough but it was the balance that was the issue.

little_badger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And Slades an excellent defender and very brave with it. Offers a huge boot as well. And Burgess isn't a centre!

I think the England management may have realised about Burgess now! I wouldn't like to see him being made a fall guy though, it's not his fault they picked him in a midfield that had zero balance. Burgess, go back to Bath, become the rampaging 6 we know you can be and let's all forget the last 3 weeks........

Ah but theres no harm trying to work it out in a World Cup in the hardest group every....when the whole Country AND his club were saying.....HE'S A FECKIN 6!!!!!!!

GeordieFalcon wrote:

little_badger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And Slades an excellent defender and very brave with it. Offers a huge boot as well. And Burgess isn't a centre!

I think the England management may have realised about Burgess now! I wouldn't like to see him being made a fall guy though, it's not his fault they picked him in a midfield that had zero balance. Burgess, go back to Bath, become the rampaging 6 we know you can be and let's all forget the last 3 weeks........

Ah but theres no harm trying to work it out in a World Cup in the hardest group every....when the whole Country AND his club were saying.....HE'S A FECKIN 6!!!!!!!

I guess we were just hoping for shades of Sonny Bill...!

On a serious note, Burgess might well be being protected here rather than dropped per se'. He has received a lot of attention and a lot of flack and maybe the coaching team thought he could do with a break from this. That's possibly one of their better decisions.

bathmad wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

little_badger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And Slades an excellent defender and very brave with it. Offers a huge boot as well. And Burgess isn't a centre!

I think the England management may have realised about Burgess now! I wouldn't like to see him being made a fall guy though, it's not his fault they picked him in a midfield that had zero balance. Burgess, go back to Bath, become the rampaging 6 we know you can be and let's all forget the last 3 weeks........

Ah but theres no harm trying to work it out in a World Cup in the hardest group every....when the whole Country AND his club were saying.....HE'S A FECKIN 6!!!!!!!

I guess we were just hoping for shades of Sonny Bill...!

Why??

Cant we develop our own game with players like Slade, rather than trying and failing to copy NZ......

I appreciate the players have underperformed and some look a shadow of themselves....but the blame lands right at the feet of the coaches!

RubyGuby wrote:On a serious note, Burgess might well be being protected here rather than dropped per se'. He has received a lot of attention and a lot of flack and maybe the coaching team thought he could do with a break from this. That's possibly one of their better decisions.

Ruby

I don't think anyone actually blames Burgess at all. He actually did quite well considering. He was put in an awful position by his management.

Lot of attention and not much flak, maybe you meant Barritt.

Why on earth is Farrell still at 12? The experiment against Wales and Australia failed.

Poor for any hooker whose name is not T.Youngs - very little game time for Webber and George.

bathmad I think Itoje and Ksevic will also be laughing too.

Yet its not near Burgess fault that England were knocked out. Against Wales he played well, did everything asked of him. 12 or 6 that doesn't matter.

Would England have won with Ford vs. Wales... probably not IMO. They were right in going with Farrell. Why, because Wales play direct rugby and it went down to a kicking duel. However people say balance, balance is meaningless.

Who should they have played?

Ford, Barritt, Slade?

That was an untried, unproven midfield and one which Wales would have licked their lips in anticipation to. Maybe it would have worked but but I doubt it.

With Ford they would have required England to beat Wales comprehensively. They couldn't rely on him in a 1-on-1 vs. Biggar. But with Joseph out their expansive game lost its edge. I imagine had Joseph been fit They would have kept with the Ford, Barritt, Joseph midfield.

Sonny Bill wasn't any good for the first 2 seasons either anyhow. People should give Burgess a chance. Barritt was probably the worst of the midfield, the worst performing England player in the RWC.

The management made a call, it worked to a point... and that point was bringing on Ford for Burgess giving them a completely barmy midfield.

Where I think England management went really wrong was selecting both Burgess and Slade. Thats not hindsight, few here I recalled called Burgess and Slade or even either.

For most it was 1 place they were fighting for. The other should have gone to Burrell, that was a no brainer.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:On a serious note, Burgess might well be being protected here rather than dropped per se'. He has received a lot of attention and a lot of flack and maybe the coaching team thought he could do with a break from this. That's possibly one of their better decisions.

Ruby

I don't think anyone actually blames Burgess at all. He actually did quite well considering. He was put in an awful position by his management.

I couldn't agree more GF, if he had stayed on against wales it may well have made the difference. I guess his profile is so high and there's not much for him to be gained here. He's been managed pretty poorly up till now and if anyone needs their cards its Barritt IMO as for me his name on the sheet is now a bit of a heart sink moment. I just fear we might lose Burgess to RL after this experience.

RubyGuby wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:On a serious note, Burgess might well be being protected here rather than dropped per se'. He has received a lot of attention and a lot of flack and maybe the coaching team thought he could do with a break from this. That's possibly one of their better decisions.

Ruby

I don't think anyone actually blames Burgess at all. He actually did quite well considering. He was put in an awful position by his management.

I couldn't agree more GF, if he had stayed on against wales it may well have made the difference. I guess his profile is so high and there's not much for him to be gained here. He's been managed pretty poorly up till now and if anyone needs their cards its Barritt IMO as for me his name on the sheet is now a bit of a heart sink moment. I just fear we might lose Burgess to RL after this experience.

Barritt will definitely be gone. You'll never see him in a White shirt again. We have some young centres coming through who need to be genuinely worked with now.

fa0019 wrote:The other should have gone to Burrell, that was a no brainer.

Not sure it was, he's been poor all season.

George Carlin wrote:Bookies are getting a sniff that Burgess may be heading back to league.

This from NZ Herald:

Bookies believe that controversial English World Cup back Sam Burgess may be about to return to league in England.

Burgess, aged 26, is being made a scapegoat by some for England's early exit from the rugby World Cup. Many believed that Burgess would return to league with South Sydney, who he led to the NRL title last year.[/size] But there has been a burst of interest in placing bets on Burgess, who made his name at Bradford, joining Super League club Leeds. Sky Bet, which offered odds of 8/1 then 6/1, closed its book.

A SkyBet spokesman told the Yorkshire Evening Post: "We received a number of requests on our Twitter account for Sam Burgess to sign for Leeds Rhinos shortly before and after England lost to Australia. We've since taken the market down in case some people know something we don't."

It is speculation but given that Bath have been chasing the absolutely fantastic Kallum Watkins for some time there could be something in it. As LT pointed out the salary cap in league is much lower, however if Bath are willing to give Burgess a big pay-out he might be willing to sign on at Rhinos for much less than he's currently on. I doubt when Bath moved in on Burgess they wanted to sign a 6 so Watkins would be a much better fit for them (and he's more suited to Union than Burgess, IMO), so even if it does cost them a fair bit it would be a good move.

Or Burgess could quite simply be so disillusioned with Union by now, and fed up with being blamed for destroying English Rugby that he'd happily take a big pay cut to go play the sport he's loved since he was a child.

Scottrf wrote:

fa0019 wrote:The other should have gone to Burrell, that was a no brainer.

Not sure it was, he's been poor all season.

He wasn't at his best but the wingers saw more ball with him there and JJ looked very good next to him.

I also feel like Jamie George should be starting in this game, club combo with Kruis in the second row if they were feeling that they needed to keep a combo together.

TightHEAD wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

fa0019 wrote:The other should have gone to Burrell, that was a no brainer.

Not sure it was, he's been poor all season.

He wasn't at his best but the wingers saw more ball with him there and JJ looked very good next to him.

I don't think that was down to him. In the 6N all I can remember seeing is him running into brick walls, dropping balls and sometimes missing tackles. He was great the year before at 13 but didn't deserve to go based on the 6N.

Mind you Barritt has been very poor this RWC so he would not have been worse.

Another joke selection by Lancaster/Farrell.  Lancaster complains we lost to Australia because they had 650 caps in the team and we only had 450.  He then virtually throws away 23 caps, by picking the likes of Easter, Goode and Parling who will surely never see an England cap again.  We should already be building for the next 6 Nations rather than doling out England caps like sweets to the guys in the squad who he didn't trust enough or think were good enough to play in the big games.

You can see now why Twelvetrees and Burrell were the centres for 2 years before the world cup and were dropped in favour of 2 novices in Burgess and Slade.  And as has been noted above, Callum Clark has been around the England squad for years without being seen as good enough to actually play.  Lancaster just seems to have no idea on player selection - the likes of Ford and Joseph only got their chance under Lancaster because of injuries to others.

I never thought I would say this, but I would pay for Jake White's plane ticket to take over from Lancaster.

nlpnlp wrote:

I never thought I would say this, but I would pay for Jake White's plane ticket to take over from Lancaster.

With the amount of cash the RFU stand to lose by not making it out the pool they might just ask you to do that.

nipnip.

Twelvetrees shopul;d not have been any near the england set up in my opinion.

Burrell on the other hand i do feel sorry for him, i thought him and Joseph would of made a great partnership.

George Carlin wrote:Absolutely - it's pure speculation. I hope that he stays too but that sanity is restored and he is played consistently at blindside, where he could be immense.

Imagine for a moment a loose forward trio of 6 Burgess 7 Armitage 8 Vunipola. Just imagine it. England needs new coaching staff pronto. And that's not being reactionary - there are simply better times ahead for England.

This is how I feel now. Potentially good times ahead with quality new coaching team.... Maybe

In general I would like to see England shift away from the "solid, workmanlike" approach they've taken over the last four years. It was absolutely necessary when Lancaster took over, but the feeling (in general on here certainly) is that over the last couple of years England have had some exciting moments, but have failed to kick on. They remain a good, solid team, but no more. It's frustrating because for me there are players who have the potential to be so much more.

With that in mind I'd like to see us pick the young, exciting guys, stop focusing so much on what they can't do (e.g. Ford not a great defender/place kicker, May at times a bit suspect positionally), and focus on what they bring to the table. I'm not saying there's no need for grafters, but rather than build a team of grafters with the odd spark let's build a team on the sparks with a few grafters to hold it together. With that in mind, I would like to see us build a team looking something like:

Mako (scrumming much improved, excellent carrier)
George (the future for me, does everything well that you want from a hooker)
?? (Cole or Wilson hopefully if they get their form back, maybe the other Wilson from Newcastle who I've heard good things about)
Launchbury
Lawes (the second row partnership worked well in 2014, let's get them back together)
Itoje (v. exciting prospect, if he settles at 6. Otherwise, if he settles at lock, I'd like Burgess there)
Kvesic (let's try something a bit different)
Vunipola/Morgan (both good options, Morgan wasn't fit enough for the WC but Billy was our best forward by a mile when he played)
Youngs
Ford (half-back partnership showed plenty of promise, let's keep them together for a bit more)
May
Slade/Tuilagi (would like to see both tried as partners to JJ, Devoto another good all-round option)
Joseph
Watson
Brown

I think there's a real possibility that Tualagi will be sufficiently effed off with English rugby and the constant press jamboree to make a move to France and so I think it's dangerous to assume he will be available for selection. Ritchie even specifically went to the press warning Manu that he would not be selected if he moved to a French side.

I didn't think that the Toulouse rumours were a real thing until my mates in Cugnaux swore that they saw Tualagi in the town centre last month.

I honestly believe that Henry Slade will become one of England's most important players.

This was an opportunity to start Care, Ford, Slade and Joseph. With Watson, Nowell and Brown imo that's the best backline England can field wth the current players.