6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February

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WALES v ENGLAND 
11 February 2017
KO:16:50 GMT
Principality Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [ITV, RTE, SC4, FR2, DMAX / BBC (H)]

Referee: Jerome Garces (France)
Touch judges: Pascal Gauzere (France) & Nick Briant (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

A. Head to Head

129 Played 129
57 Won 60
12 Drawn 12
60 Lost 57
1,673 Points 1,518

B. Recent Form 

29 May 2016: Twickenham, London
27 – 13 to England
2016 mid-year rugby union internationals

12 March 2016: Twickenham, London
25 – 21 to England
2016 Six Nations Championship

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London
25 – 28 to Wales
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London 
25 – 28 to Wales 
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A 

6 February 2015: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
16 – 21 to England 
2015 Six Nations 

9 March 2014: Twickenham Stadium, London 
29 – 18 to England 
2014 Six Nations 

16 March 2013: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
30 – 3 to Wales 
2013 Six Nations 

25 February 2012: Twickenham Stadium, London 
12 – 19 to Wales 
2012 Six Nations

13 August 2011: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
19 – 9 to Wales 
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test 

6 August 2011: Twickenham, London 
23 – 19 to England 
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test 

C. Teams

WALES

15-Leigh Halfpenny, 14-George North, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Scott Williams, 11-Liam Williams, 10-Dan Biggar, 9-Rhys Webb; 1-Rob Evans, 2-Ken Owens, 3-Tomas Francis, 4-Jake Ball, 5-Alun Wyn Jones, 6-Sam Warburton, 7-Justin Tipuric; 8-Ross Moriarty.

Replacements: 16-Scott Baldwin, 17-Nicky Smith, 18-Samson Lee, 19-Cory Hill, 20-Taulupe Faletau, 21-Gareth Davies, 22-Sam Davies, 23-Jamie Roberts.

ENGLAND

15-Mike Brown, 14-Jack Nowell, 13-Jonathan Joseph, 12-Owen Farrell, 11-Elliot Daly, 10-George Ford, 9-Ben Youngs; 1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley (captain), 3-Dan Cole, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Maro Itoje, 7-Jack Clifford, 8-Nathan Hughes.

Replacements: 16-Jamie George, 17-Matt Mullan, 18-Kyle Sinckler, 19-Tom Wood, 20-James Haskell, 21-Danny Care, 22-Ben Te'o, 23-Jonny May.

George Carlin wrote:They'll be too gutted to be reflective I would think, but parts of that were the best that Wales has played in 6 months:
- finally, we can actually say that Warbuton is back and looks like a test class player.
- don't understand the comments that Tipuric is a luxury player - he is looking more and more vital for Wales.
- Moriarty feisty and I presume was injured - otherwise his substitution was a mistake, even for a class act like Falatau.
- JD2 was completely anonymous from what I saw and we all know what happened with That Touchfinder.
- Scott Williams was very good - a low error player and strong defensively.
- Class from the 9s as usual.
- Ball worked his big beardy arse off and deserved his place - where is Luke Charteris at the moment?
- L Williams by far the most dangerous back on the park. He has to be in with a shout for a Lions test place.
- Front row given a bit of a duffing in the scrums, but always looked for work.
- Scott Baldwin needs to sort out his throwing. He reminds me of Ross Ford and that is not a compliment.
- Cuthbert - please, please play against Scotland. We need Stuart Hogg and Tommy Seymour blasting down your channel at every possible opportunity.
- In summary, huge effort and a lot of classy moments - just a few too many errors.  

I though Webb was a bit slow to get the ball away even if though his forwards were providing quick ball.

Never in doubt, just like last week!

If i was a Welsh fan i would be questioning the subtitution's. ED only brings on subs when the team is looking vunerable. Then when they come on they make a difference and change the style of play of the team.


1st question Why was moriarty taken off.?

2nd why did Sam davies nort brought on?

3rd why did Cuthbert not get subed?

RiscaGame wrote:We have a wing. Steff Evans ripping up trees for Scarlets. Only Wales wouldn't pick on form. We truly reap what we sow

I agree he's an option, but I believe the Welsh management think he's too short and lightweight for an England game.
He's 5'10" and 12 and a half stone isn't he?

Wales's glaring weakness, as it has been for years, is their lack of composure and cutting edge in the opposition 22. Two years on from failing to score against a 13-man Australia, and all we know is the bludgeon.

But what a thunderous Test match. Dan Biggar was heroic.

majesticimperialman wrote:If i was a Welsh fan i would be questioning the subtitution's. ED only brings on subs when the team is looking vunerable. Then when they come on they make a difference and change the style of play of the team.


1st question Why was moriarty taken off.?

2nd why did Sam davies nort brought on?

3rd  why did Cuthbert not get subed?

Toby F
Biggar was playing well
Howley had a bet on Cuthbert

By the way, super penalty scrounged by Sinckler to effectively seal the game.

Good game for the neutral.
If the welsh players spent more time thinking about plays rather than the constant chit chat to the ref, they might have snatched it.

Shifty wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:We have a wing. Steff Evans ripping up trees for Scarlets. Only Wales wouldn't pick on form. We truly reap what we sow

I agree he's an option, but I believe the Welsh management think he's too short and lightweight for an England game.  
He's 5'10" and 12 and a half stone isn't he?

Quite right. Shane William was rubbish wasn't he?

For Wales must have felt very much like all those Oz games. Do so much so well but fail to score enough points and then get sucker punched at the end

TightHEAD wrote:Never in doubt, just like last week!

Hersh text me the same.

England did not play intelligently at all for much of that game.  Once they got in the lead they were trying to play too much too soon when in possession.  The first try and early success was built on patience and sustained pressure.  After that they chased the early risky options.

As an example, Ford's passing was good to start off, but then he over-egged it and was passing so flat that the players were taking the ball at the same time as contact.  It needs to be a fraction before so that they have the ball set.  At least 4/5 of the turnovers conceded were from players spilling the ball in such instances.  Once or twice is acceptable, but then you need to learn the lesson to temper it for a while and build again.

The balance is still not right on knowing when to play and when to put the pressure on through territory either.

Also, preceeding the Welsh try, I don't know how they couldn't spot Young's kick was going to be charged down, it was evident for 5s before it was taken.  Hartley spotted there was an issue and came running in, but with it was never going to be enough with the number of Welsh players round that side of that ruck.  Youngs should have known better, but so should the rest of the team hanging back.  It had to be kicked and he needed much better protection.

Poorfour wrote:By the way, super penalty scrounged by Sinckler to effectively seal the game.

Excuse me Sir.....sir sir

Class, politeness gets you a long way with a Ref

I can't quite understand the negativity towards Launchbury today, thought he and Lawes were both immense. He didn't make much yardage but carried in heavy traffic all game and deserved MOTM for the shift he put in defensively.

It wasn't pretty but that's number 16 on the bounce and that's no fluke, in a tight game like that it made sense to keep Daly on for his boot alone.

Cuthbert is fake news.

He's a mirage who promises coconuts and hula hula girls but delivers bollox instead.

Except for one knock on, I think Alex Cuthbert was faultless today. No winger in the world could have stopped that try. I noticed England were kicking to him at the restarts and he catched every ball that came his way.

Well congratulations England. Absolutely gutted but thought you deserved it. For me Wales (try aside) did not look remotely as threatening with ball in hand. Seems we still base a lot of our attack around pods of forwards trucking it up the middle and a lot of it was painfully slow especially in the second half. Well we only scored 3 points didn't we? Case in point after second English try we got the ball back after the restart but never looked like threatening the 22.
Again, congrats England and enjoy your victory.

international198 wrote:Except for one knock on, I think Alex Cuthbert was faultless today. No winger in the world could have stopped that try. I noticed England were kicking to him at the restarts and he catched every ball that came his way.

You missed the first try then?

Shifty wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:We have a wing. Steff Evans ripping up trees for Scarlets. Only Wales wouldn't pick on form. We truly reap what we sow

I agree he's an option, but I believe the Welsh management think he's too short and lightweight for an England game.  
He's 5'10" and 12 and a half stone isn't he?

5.10 and 13 stones.

Stocky and quick and even if he isn't a 6ft 6 idiot i'd still pick him over bat Poopie crazy Cuffbert who has no place in international rugby FFS

Exiledinborders wrote:

Shifty wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:We have a wing. Steff Evans ripping up trees for Scarlets. Only Wales wouldn't pick on form. We truly reap what we sow

I agree he's an option, but I believe the Welsh management think he's too short and lightweight for an England game.  
He's 5'10" and 12 and a half stone isn't he?

Quite right. Shane William was rubbish wasn't he?

I understand the argument, but lets be totally honest, as good as he was Shane Williams was an accident. He got into the World Cup squad (2003) because he could play scrum, half, was thrown in as a lamb to the slaughter against New Zealand in the pool stages and the rest was history.

In reality Wales have had quite a lot of cracking small players over the years similar in size to Shane Williams and never got a look in.
Gareth Wyatt, Martin Giraud prior to Shane.
Jordan Wiliams, Lee Evans a few years ago.
Now we have Steffan Evans and Keelan Giles doing well now.

All are / were lightening quick, all can side step and all never / will probably never get the chance.

international198 wrote:Except for one knock on, I think Alex Cuthbert was faultless today. No winger in the world could have stopped that try. I noticed England were kicking to him at the restarts and he catched every ball that came his way.

then why not picked v Scotland?

Shifty wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Shifty wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:We have a wing. Steff Evans ripping up trees for Scarlets. Only Wales wouldn't pick on form. We truly reap what we sow

I agree he's an option, but I believe the Welsh management think he's too short and lightweight for an England game.  
He's 5'10" and 12 and a half stone isn't he?

Quite right. Shane William was rubbish wasn't he?

I understand the argument, but lets be totally honest, as good as he was Shane Williams was an accident.  He got into the World Cup squad (2003) because he could play scrum, half, was thrown in as a lamb to the slaughter against New Zealand in the pool stages and the rest was history.  

In reality Wales have had quite a lot of cracking small players over the years similar in size to Shane Williams and never got a look in.  
Gareth Wyatt, Martin Giraud prior to Shane.
Jordan Wiliams, Lee Evans a few years ago.
Now we have Steffan Evans and Keelan Giles doing well now.

All are / were lightening quick, all can side step and all never / will probably never get the chance.

We have Christian Wade who must be as good with a side step as anyone. Sweet hands too. But how often can he get the ball, what happens when the jink doesn't come off and how does he handle 16 stone fijians (who can also step) coming the other way?

Its sad but you can see why its so tough for the little guys to get a break

Gwlad wrote:

international198 wrote:Except for one knock on, I think Alex Cuthbert was faultless today. No winger in the world could have stopped that try. I noticed England were kicking to him at the restarts and he catched every ball that came his way.

then why not picked v Scotland?

I think he would do a good job versus Scotland. What Alex Cuthbert needs is a coach who backs him and believes in him.

international198 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

international198 wrote:Except for one knock on, I think Alex Cuthbert was faultless today. No winger in the world could have stopped that try. I noticed England were kicking to him at the restarts and he catched every ball that came his way.

then why not picked v Scotland?

I think he would do a good job versus Scotland. What Alex Cuthbert needs is a coach who backs him and believes in him.

?

he has that in Howley because no other coach would tolerate this crap

Unlucky Wales, should have won this game, only because of a few stupid decisions by our OFF field staff. Cuthbert being selected, Moriarty and Williams subbed.

Hope I don't see any Hartley for Lions captaincy after today's game, there were at least 2 better Hookers and a miles better Captain on that pitch today

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

international198 wrote:Except for one knock on, I think Alex Cuthbert was faultless today. No winger in the world could have stopped that try. I noticed England were kicking to him at the restarts and he catched every ball that came his way.

You missed the first try then?

I've just watched the first try again and Alex Cuthbert did nothing wrong.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

international198 wrote:Except for one knock on, I think Alex Cuthbert was faultless today. No winger in the world could have stopped that try. I noticed England were kicking to him at the restarts and he catched every ball that came his way.

You missed the first try then?

I've just watched the first try again and Alex Cuthbert did nothing wrong.

international198 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

international198 wrote:Except for one knock on, I think Alex Cuthbert was faultless today. No winger in the world could have stopped that try. I noticed England were kicking to him at the restarts and he catched every ball that came his way.

You missed the first try then?

I've just watched the first try again and Alex Cuthbert did nothing wrong.

Apart from letting Ben Youngs dart over the line unopposed.

lostinwales wrote:

Shifty wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Shifty wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:We have a wing. Steff Evans ripping up trees for Scarlets. Only Wales wouldn't pick on form. We truly reap what we sow

I agree he's an option, but I believe the Welsh management think he's too short and lightweight for an England game.  
He's 5'10" and 12 and a half stone isn't he?

Quite right. Shane William was rubbish wasn't he?

I understand the argument, but lets be totally honest, as good as he was Shane Williams was an accident.  He got into the World Cup squad (2003) because he could play scrum, half, was thrown in as a lamb to the slaughter against New Zealand in the pool stages and the rest was history.  

In reality Wales have had quite a lot of cracking small players over the years similar in size to Shane Williams and never got a look in.  
Gareth Wyatt, Martin Giraud prior to Shane.
Jordan Wiliams, Lee Evans a few years ago.
Now we have Steffan Evans and Keelan Giles doing well now.

All are / were lightening quick, all can side step and all never / will probably never get the chance.

We have Christian Wade who must be as good with a side step as anyone. Sweet hands too. But how often can he get the ball, what happens when the jink doesn't come off and how does he handle 16 stone fijians (who can also step) coming the other way?

Its sad but you can see why its so tough for the little guys to get a break

Shane Williams and Jason Robinson were unique in that they had blinding speed, an unparalleled side step and could tackle well above their weight.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

international198 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

international198 wrote:Except for one knock on, I think Alex Cuthbert was faultless today. No winger in the world could have stopped that try. I noticed England were kicking to him at the restarts and he catched every ball that came his way.

You missed the first try then?

I've just watched the first try again and Alex Cuthbert did nothing wrong.

Apart from letting Ben Youngs dart over the line unopposed.

Alex Cuthbert wasn't the only defender there. Sam Warburton was there as well.

international198 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

international198 wrote:Except for one knock on, I think Alex Cuthbert was faultless today. No winger in the world could have stopped that try. I noticed England were kicking to him at the restarts and he catched every ball that came his way.

then why not picked v Scotland?

I think he would do a good job versus Scotland. What Alex Cuthbert needs is a coach who backs him and believes in him.

Sadly Cuthbert has all the physical tools but has been exposed to have weak mental strength. Teams will target this and exploit the weakness. He is like Priestland, he has talent, but you know he is an accident waiting to happen, and frankly you'd rather he wasn't on the field.

I'm happy with him being on the field

Just twigged even though pourfour mentioned it earlier. Wales scored a massive 3 points in the 2nd half.

There you have it.

Also noticed that the penalty count was 10-6 Wales England. Given that I seem to remember that we gave away 5 penalties in the first half it seems that we gave a massive total of one away in the 2nd (unless the stats are all wrong). For all the huff and puff, the chopping and changing of the subs and the failure to deal with Wales on the ground - that is some stat.

This was a very pumped up Wales that played very well for all but a few minutes at the start of the game and 5 minutes at the end. But it wasn't enough.

You don't have to be the best - just a little bit better than the other guy.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Shifty wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Shifty wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:We have a wing. Steff Evans ripping up trees for Scarlets. Only Wales wouldn't pick on form. We truly reap what we sow

I agree he's an option, but I believe the Welsh management think he's too short and lightweight for an England game.  
He's 5'10" and 12 and a half stone isn't he?

Quite right. Shane William was rubbish wasn't he?

I understand the argument, but lets be totally honest, as good as he was Shane Williams was an accident.  He got into the World Cup squad (2003) because he could play scrum, half, was thrown in as a lamb to the slaughter against New Zealand in the pool stages and the rest was history.  

In reality Wales have had quite a lot of cracking small players over the years similar in size to Shane Williams and never got a look in.  
Gareth Wyatt, Martin Giraud prior to Shane.
Jordan Wiliams, Lee Evans a few years ago.
Now we have Steffan Evans and Keelan Giles doing well now.

All are / were lightening quick, all can side step and all never / will probably never get the chance.

We have Christian Wade who must be as good with a side step as anyone. Sweet hands too. But how often can he get the ball, what happens when the jink doesn't come off and how does he handle 16 stone fijians (who can also step) coming the other way?

Its sad but you can see why its so tough for the little guys to get a break

Shane Williams and Jason Robinson were unique in that they had blinding speed, an unparalleled side step and could tackle well above their weight.

I hate to say this but such small, nippy players are 2 a penny in Welsh rugby.  The world changed in 1995 with the emergence of Jonah Lomu and Joe Ross.

Jordan Williams:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbKu534J6QU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWLkOF2DSAo

Keelan Giles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aelEXZEqpM

Matthew Morgan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twNLmd_SG9Y

Look at the young players in Wales who have about now, Matthew Morgan, Sam Davies.  A couple of years ago we were all raving about Steffan Jones of the Dragons, he's gone now.  

All too small to be trusted.

Robinson was truly exceptional, right up there with David Campese.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

international198 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

international198 wrote:Except for one knock on, I think Alex Cuthbert was faultless today. No winger in the world could have stopped that try. I noticed England were kicking to him at the restarts and he catched every ball that came his way.

You missed the first try then?

I've just watched the first try again and Alex Cuthbert did nothing wrong.

Apart from letting Ben Youngs dart over the line unopposed.

There's no way Cuthbert could have stopped Youngs from there.

Cuthbert could have/ should have used the Force!

TightHEAD wrote:Cuthbert could have/ should have used the Force!

You mean Force Speed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3dI-ghYimg

international198 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

international198 wrote:Except for one knock on, I think Alex Cuthbert was faultless today. No winger in the world could have stopped that try. I noticed England were kicking to him at the restarts and he catched every ball that came his way.

You missed the first try then?

I've just watched the first try again and Alex Cuthbert did nothing wrong.

you're welcome

and again, if he was faultless why have you dropped him out of the 23?

Well that is England first team, U20s and women all winning away in Wales. Do you fellas want a game of darts to save face? Only kidding, hard fought games and well won victories, it it matters more when both sides put their cocks on the block. Respect.

international198 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

international198 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

international198 wrote:Except for one knock on, I think Alex Cuthbert was faultless today. No winger in the world could have stopped that try. I noticed England were kicking to him at the restarts and he catched every ball that came his way.

You missed the first try then?

I've just watched the first try again and Alex Cuthbert did nothing wrong.

Apart from letting Ben Youngs dart over the line unopposed.

There's no way Cuthbert could have stopped Youngs from there.

Well he lost the ball forward in the tackle, which put Wales under pressure, leading up to the final try.

He missed a hole in the defense.

Then he was caught on the outside for the winning try, all this in about 2-3 minutes.

international198 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

international198 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

international198 wrote:Except for one knock on, I think Alex Cuthbert was faultless today. No winger in the world could have stopped that try. I noticed England were kicking to him at the restarts and he catched every ball that came his way.

You missed the first try then?

I've just watched the first try again and Alex Cuthbert did nothing wrong.

Apart from letting Ben Youngs dart over the line unopposed.

There's no way Cuthbert could have stopped Youngs from there.

we will never know…because HE DIDN'T FECKING TRY!

Cumbrian wrote:Well that is England first team, U20s and women all winning away in Wales. Do you fellas want a game of darts to save face? Only kidding, hard fought games and well won victories, it it matters more when both sides put their cocks on the block. Respect.

That womens game was really close. We almost scored, well maybe... and we only lost by a 63 point margin.

Gwlad wrote:

international198 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

international198 wrote:Except for one knock on, I think Alex Cuthbert was faultless today. No winger in the world could have stopped that try. I noticed England were kicking to him at the restarts and he catched every ball that came his way.

You missed the first try then?

I've just watched the first try again and Alex Cuthbert did nothing wrong.

you're welcome

and again, if he was faultless why have you dropped him out of the 23?

I refuse to answer that question.

international198 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

international198 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

international198 wrote:Except for one knock on, I think Alex Cuthbert was faultless today. No winger in the world could have stopped that try. I noticed England were kicking to him at the restarts and he catched every ball that came his way.

You missed the first try then?

I've just watched the first try again and Alex Cuthbert did nothing wrong.

you're welcome

and again, if he was faultless why have you dropped him out of the 23?

I refuse to answer that question.

you mean you can't

Shifty wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Shifty wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Shifty wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:We have a wing. Steff Evans ripping up trees for Scarlets. Only Wales wouldn't pick on form. We truly reap what we sow

I agree he's an option, but I believe the Welsh management think he's too short and lightweight for an England game.  
He's 5'10" and 12 and a half stone isn't he?

Quite right. Shane William was rubbish wasn't he?

I understand the argument, but lets be totally honest, as good as he was Shane Williams was an accident.  He got into the World Cup squad (2003) because he could play scrum, half, was thrown in as a lamb to the slaughter against New Zealand in the pool stages and the rest was history.  

In reality Wales have had quite a lot of cracking small players over the years similar in size to Shane Williams and never got a look in.  
Gareth Wyatt, Martin Giraud prior to Shane.
Jordan Wiliams, Lee Evans a few years ago.
Now we have Steffan Evans and Keelan Giles doing well now.

All are / were lightening quick, all can side step and all never / will probably never get the chance.

We have Christian Wade who must be as good with a side step as anyone. Sweet hands too. But how often can he get the ball, what happens when the jink doesn't come off and how does he handle 16 stone fijians (who can also step) coming the other way?

Its sad but you can see why its so tough for the little guys to get a break

Shane Williams and Jason Robinson were unique in that they had blinding speed, an unparalleled side step and could tackle well above their weight.

I hate to say this but such small, nippy players are 2 a penny in Welsh rugby.  The world changed in 1995 with the emergence of Jonah Lomu and Joe Ross.

Jordan Williams:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbKu534J6QU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWLkOF2DSAo

Keelan Giles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aelEXZEqpM

Matthew Morgan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twNLmd_SG9Y

Look at the young players in Wales who have about now, Matthew Morgan, Sam Davies.  A couple of years ago we were all raving about Steffan Jones of the Dragons, he's gone now.  

All too small to be trusted.

Robinson was truly exceptional, right up there with David Campese.

Jordan Williams and Matthew Morgan have never even set the pro12 alight or been consistent game to game. They're both crap examples as they've never been top players for regional teams and Giles is in his first full season and just turned 19

You may as well chuck in Lee Williams if you're just going to pick random small people.

Liam Williams is hardly George Norths stature or Halfpenny isn't 6ft6 yet are regular internationals

True Raven wrote:

Shifty wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Shifty wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Shifty wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:We have a wing. Steff Evans ripping up trees for Scarlets. Only Wales wouldn't pick on form. We truly reap what we sow

I agree he's an option, but I believe the Welsh management think he's too short and lightweight for an England game.  
He's 5'10" and 12 and a half stone isn't he?

Quite right. Shane William was rubbish wasn't he?

I understand the argument, but lets be totally honest, as good as he was Shane Williams was an accident.  He got into the World Cup squad (2003) because he could play scrum, half, was thrown in as a lamb to the slaughter against New Zealand in the pool stages and the rest was history.  

In reality Wales have had quite a lot of cracking small players over the years similar in size to Shane Williams and never got a look in.  
Gareth Wyatt, Martin Giraud prior to Shane.
Jordan Wiliams, Lee Evans a few years ago.
Now we have Steffan Evans and Keelan Giles doing well now.

All are / were lightening quick, all can side step and all never / will probably never get the chance.

We have Christian Wade who must be as good with a side step as anyone. Sweet hands too. But how often can he get the ball, what happens when the jink doesn't come off and how does he handle 16 stone fijians (who can also step) coming the other way?

Its sad but you can see why its so tough for the little guys to get a break

Shane Williams and Jason Robinson were unique in that they had blinding speed, an unparalleled side step and could tackle well above their weight.

I hate to say this but such small, nippy players are 2 a penny in Welsh rugby.  The world changed in 1995 with the emergence of Jonah Lomu and Joe Ross.

Jordan Williams:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbKu534J6QU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWLkOF2DSAo

Keelan Giles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aelEXZEqpM

Matthew Morgan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twNLmd_SG9Y

Look at the young players in Wales who have about now, Matthew Morgan, Sam Davies.  A couple of years ago we were all raving about Steffan Jones of the Dragons, he's gone now.  

All too small to be trusted.

Robinson was truly exceptional, right up there with David Campese.

Jordan Williams and Matthew Morgan have never even set the pro12 alight or been consistent game to game.  They're both crap examples as they've never been top players for regional teams and Giles is in his first full season and just turned 19

You may as well chuck in Lee Williams if you're just going to pick random small people.

Liam Williams is hardly George Norths stature or Halfpenny isn't 6ft6 yet are regular internationals

And for the record Jordan Williams professionalism and attitude has hindered his development and Matthew Morgan can't run a game at fly half which led the Os to release him

True Raven wrote:

Shifty wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Shifty wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Shifty wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:We have a wing. Steff Evans ripping up trees for Scarlets. Only Wales wouldn't pick on form. We truly reap what we sow

I agree he's an option, but I believe the Welsh management think he's too short and lightweight for an England game.  
He's 5'10" and 12 and a half stone isn't he?

Quite right. Shane William was rubbish wasn't he?

I understand the argument, but lets be totally honest, as good as he was Shane Williams was an accident.  He got into the World Cup squad (2003) because he could play scrum, half, was thrown in as a lamb to the slaughter against New Zealand in the pool stages and the rest was history.  

In reality Wales have had quite a lot of cracking small players over the years similar in size to Shane Williams and never got a look in.  
Gareth Wyatt, Martin Giraud prior to Shane.
Jordan Wiliams, Lee Evans a few years ago.
Now we have Steffan Evans and Keelan Giles doing well now.

All are / were lightening quick, all can side step and all never / will probably never get the chance.

We have Christian Wade who must be as good with a side step as anyone. Sweet hands too. But how often can he get the ball, what happens when the jink doesn't come off and how does he handle 16 stone fijians (who can also step) coming the other way?

Its sad but you can see why its so tough for the little guys to get a break

Shane Williams and Jason Robinson were unique in that they had blinding speed, an unparalleled side step and could tackle well above their weight.

I hate to say this but such small, nippy players are 2 a penny in Welsh rugby.  The world changed in 1995 with the emergence of Jonah Lomu and Joe Ross.

Jordan Williams:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbKu534J6QU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWLkOF2DSAo

Keelan Giles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aelEXZEqpM

Matthew Morgan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twNLmd_SG9Y

Look at the young players in Wales who have about now, Matthew Morgan, Sam Davies.  A couple of years ago we were all raving about Steffan Jones of the Dragons, he's gone now.  

All too small to be trusted.

Robinson was truly exceptional, right up there with David Campese.

Jordan Williams and Matthew Morgan have never even set the pro12 alight or been consistent game to game.  They're both crap examples as they've never been top players for regional teams and Giles is in his first full season and just turned 19

You may as well chuck in Lee Williams if you're just going to pick random small people.

Liam Williams is hardly George Norths stature or Halfpenny isn't 6ft6 yet are regular internationals

The point I'm putting forward, is they are small, fast players, who can side step and entertain. Welsh rugby went mad for them, and then they never got the chance due to their size. That could so easily of been Shane Williams as well, if things had been slightly different. Historically those players may of had a game vs Japan or Romania then were quietly dropped off the radar.

Shane Williams also had issues with tackling and running style in his career. The size problem involved a lot of upper body work to increase his strength. Though all questions were answered when he tackled that huge English wing. Bannan or something, I forgot his name now.

As an England fan I am mightily relieved and delighted at the same time. For large parts of the game our back row was unsurprisingly out-played by Warburton, Tipuric & Moriarty - but to be fair if that hadn't happened, I would wonder why. Wales have two of the best back-row forwards in International rugby at flanker and Moriarty is fast becoming a very useful tool indeed, showing many of the England team how best to tackle.

Talking of tackling, I thought there were a few questionable (i.e high) tackles by both sides which went un-noticed or unpunished; but Moriarty was lucky to have escaped sanction for the blatantly late tackle on Farrell. Classy act from Owen not to complain about it though.

England have much to work on whereas Wales only appear to need some minor tweaking.

I think the Italy game could see a couple of minor changes. Care could start instead of Youngs and we might get to see Daly playing Full Back. And Haskell should be fit enough to start the game at 7 by then.

Not sure what Jordan Williams issues are but audacity is exactly what we need in the Welsh back line

True Raven wrote:And for the record Jordan Williams professionalism and attitude has hindered his development and Matthew Morgan can't run a game at fly half which led the Os to release him

Internal squabbling amongst the Bridgend boys.

Morgan downed tools when he was asked to convert to full back. And he wasn't being picked as the Ospreys had Sam Davies and Dan Biggar already, hence the transfer to Bristol.
At least we agree on the jist of that.