Lions 2017 - the decider

by **RDW** Wed May 31, 2017 10:03 am

First topic message reminder :

Lions 2017 - the decider - Page 4 R2fRSPlg

After months if not years, of debate, arguments and plenty bickering the time has come - The Lions are in New Zealand and the tour has begun!

I think it is fair to say that if you're not a fan of the concept of the Lions then this isn't the thread to bring it up - we have had plenty of that over several months and the debate has been done to death. This thread will hopefully be a positive place where those excited about the tour (like me!) can talk about everything that's going on. That's until Jamie Roberts gets a callup of course... Run

3 June - Provincial union team (Toll Stadium, Whangarei)

7 June - Blues (Eden Park, Auckland)

10 June - Crusaders (AMI Stadium, Christchurch)

13 June - Highlanders (Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin)

17 June - Maori (International Stadium, Rotorua)

20 June - Chiefs (Waikato Stadium, Hamilton)

24 June - New Zealand (First Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

27 June - Hurricanes (Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

1 July - New Zealand (Second Test, Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

8 July - New Zealand (Third Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

Lions 2017 - the decider - Page 4 Lions20131024x768_2947826

Lions 2017 - the decider - Page 4 Lions20131024x768_2947826

by Sin é Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:43 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Beginning to look like Hogg might be out of the tour.

Mike Brown to replace Hogg or maybe Russell or Ford and rely on Watson Williams 1/2p Payne to cover FB???

Or Conor Murray's good friend Simon Zebo Smile

by **George Carlin** Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:49 pm

Sin é wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Beginning to look like Hogg might be out of the tour.

Mike Brown to replace Hogg or maybe Russell or Ford and rely on Watson Williams 1/2p Payne to cover FB???

Or Conor Murray's good friend Simon Zebo

Lions 2017 - the decider - Page 4 Gobsh_10

by **BigGee** Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:04 pm

Watson had a pretty decent cameo at FB once Hogg went off on Saturday. Quite a few English posters reckon that is his best position and he may take over that slot from Brown soon enough. Payne is clearly getting the chance to audition for that place as well.

There are plenty candidates for the wing slots, less so at FB if we want a genuine attacking threat from there and Hogg not fit. I am hopeful he will play again. They would know if it was fractured by now and that is what would keep him out for a while. I think if he was heading home, we would have heard by now.

by BamBam Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:05 pm

Everyone's putting North in, but it almost seems as if its by default at the moment, he put in a good defensive shift at the weekend but other than Watson I don't think any of our back 3 players have shone in attack so far

by **BigGee** Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:09 pm

BamBam wrote:Everyone's putting North in, but it almost seems as if its by default at the moment, he put in a good defensive shift at the weekend but other than Watson I don't think any of our back 3 players have shone in attack so far

To be fair on some of them, they have not really played in a backline that was firing yet. Hopefully Seymour and Nowell will get that chance tomorrow.

by eirebilly Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:12 pm

Seymour to me, is a dark horse for a test start. He has looked very good in defence and attack. For some reason, I keep forgetting about him which is bazaar considering how good he is.

by No9 Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:23 pm

Sin é wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Beginning to look like Hogg might be out of the tour.

Mike Brown to replace Hogg or maybe Russell or Ford and rely on Watson Williams 1/2p Payne to cover FB???

Or Conor Murray's good friend Simon Zebo

There is no way they will bring a replacement in for Hogg. If is tour is over (and hope it isn't), then you have so many FB options as stated. Also, I don't think Hogg was/is in the driving seat for the test shirt. His attacking play is good, but far to selfish looking to make brakes himself, rather than create opportunities for others, and his defensive play is woeful. So I cant see them bringing in a replacement FB for the mid-week games, especially as there is only three more mid-week games to go (ignoring Sat against the Maoris, as its not mid-week and is likely to be the first outing for the "probable").

Again, hope Hogg's tour isn't over, but Gatland isn't the type of coach to bring in cover just to make up the tour party numbers (Unless Shane Williams is available of course Whistle

)

by **RDW** Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:29 pm

No9 wrote:His attacking play is good, but far to selfish looking to make brakes himself, rather than create opportunities for others

As a Scotland fan I would highly dispute that! He's had some fantastic assists for Scotland in the last few years with his dangerous running and skill in wide channels setting up scores for the likes of Visser and Seymour in recent 6Ns.

No9 wrote:and his defensive play is woeful

Woeful is also a bit of an overstatement - it's not as if he makes high profile defencive errors in every game and some games his defence has been really good. Yes he is prone to the odd missed tackle but 15 is one of the most difficult positions to defend. And it goes back to the old debate - would you rather a player that scores tries but makes the odd mistakes or one that makes few mistakes but isn't an attacking threat!

I'm not saying Hogg should be a test starter but, assuming he's fit for the Maori game, it's too early to write him off IMO.[/quote]

by Cyril Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:31 pm

eirebilly wrote:Seymour to me, is a dark horse for a test start. He has looked very good in defence and attack. For some reason, I keep forgetting about him which is bazaar considering how good he is.

Maybe he needs to market himself better?

I really am here all week Smile

by GunsGermsV2 Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:35 pm

Seymour has been excellent alright. Id have him on the bench at least.

Is Alan Wynn Jones the real captain at this stage? It looks likely that Wynn Jones will start the first test but unlikely that Warburton will at least he shouldn't on form anyway.

by eirebilly Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:40 pm

Cyril wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Seymour to me, is a dark horse for a test start. He has looked very good in defence and attack. For some reason, I keep forgetting about him which is bazaar considering how good he is.
Maybe he needs to market himself better?

I really am here all week

Ding ding

by Guest Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:49 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Seymour has been excellent alright. Id have him on the bench at least.

Is Alan Wynn Jones the real captain at this stage? It looks likely that Wynn Jones will start the first test but unlikely that Warburton will at least he shouldn't on form anyway.

Really? While I think he had a decent game against the Crusaders (better than some gave him credit for) I think AWJ is down the 2nd row pecking order. Would make a decent midweek player/captain. I was always of the mid that he was/is good enough to tour (i.e. arguably in the top 5/6 locks available. Arguably Wink

), but more likely to be a midweek man with the quality of the others on show. For the tests Kruis and Itoje are my front runners, with Lawes not far behind.

by GunsGermsV2 Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:08 pm

I think Itoje will be an impact sub for AWJ. AWJ is one of the strongest leaders in the squad. I can see him starting with Kruis.

by No 7&1/2 Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:10 pm

And on form 4th best lock on tour.

by Scottrf Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:13 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And on form 4th best lock on tour.

If you repeat leader enough times it makes form irrelevant. Not quite as strong as the ultimate trump card though: Winning Lion.

by Hammersmith harrier Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:14 pm

If you've got Kruis playing I think you need to partner him with someone more athletic so Itoje or Lawes and on current form I'd go with Lawes giving him free reign to target Beuaden Barrett.

by Guest Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:14 pm

Scottrf wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:And on form 4th best lock on tour.

If you repeat leader enough times it makes form irrelevant. Not quite as strong as the ultimate trump card though: Winning Lion.

Grow up!

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:17 pm

I personally thought AWJ played himself firmly into test jersey contention against the Crusaders. He carried with ferocity, played his part in the set piece and tackled very well.

Kruis and AWJ are the leaders for the test Jersey for me at this stage with Lawes on the bench. I really don't get the Itoje love. He's a good player but he is a bit of a penalty magnet. The last thing we need is to be feeding the All Blacks a steady stream of penalties because getting the ball away from them in the first place is the key to winning IMO.

by GunsGermsV2 Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:29 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I personally thought AWJ played himself firmly into test jersey contention against the Crusaders. He carried with ferocity, played his part in the set piece and tackled very well.

Kruis and AWJ are the leaders for the test Jersey for me at this stage with Lawes on the bench. I really don't get the Itoje love. He's a good player but he is a bit of a penalty magnet. The last thing we need is to be feeding the All Blacks a steady stream of penalties because getting the ball away from them in the first place is the key to winning IMO.

100% agree, although Id swap Lawes for Itoje.

by BamBam Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:31 pm

I saw AWJ off the pace, knocked backwards in the tackle, unable to carry with any effectiveness and making very little impact shifting anyone at the breakdown

But its all opinions I guess

by LordDowlais Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:33 pm

BamBam wrote:I saw AWJ off the pace, knocked backwards in the tackle, unable to carry with any effectiveness and making very little impact shifting anyone at the breakdown

But its all opinions I guess

Well I suppose your opinion of him would be a lot different if he wasn't Welsh. Rolling Eyes

by No 7&1/2 Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:34 pm

Lazy argument. Jones has not been good so far. If he can get a bit fitter ahead of the tests he may stand a chance.

by BamBam Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:40 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
BamBam wrote:I saw AWJ off the pace, knocked backwards in the tackle, unable to carry with any effectiveness and making very little impact shifting anyone at the breakdown

But its all opinions I guess

Well I suppose your opinion of him would be a lot different if he wasn't Welsh.

Nope, I think Faletau has been excellent, Tipuric has been great, Webb and Owens should be in the 23, and North has been the best wing showing excellent defence even though he hasn't had much chance to attack.

I just think AWJ's pashun and experience is the only thing that makes him a starter in Gatland's eyes, and he's wrong - Kruis is nailed on, start Itoje for the established combo and let Lawes wreak havoc late on

by EST Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:48 pm

It's the English locks for me, Kruis and Lawes to start with Itoje on the bench. And no, its not because he is Welsh.

by Cyril Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:48 pm

AWJ has been better than Henderson.

by BigTrevsbigmac Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:48 pm

I agree re AWJ - it is actually Kruis that is running/calling the lineout. He is or should be the definite starter.
Itoje & Lawes (& Launch Wink

have been consistently better than AWJs for a while now.

by EST Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:54 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I agree re AWJ - it is actually Kruis that is running/calling the lineout. He is or should be the definite starter.
Itoje & Lawes (& Launch have been consistently better than AWJs for a while now.

I don' think there is any doubt at this stage - he is absolutley nailed on to start, along with Murray, Faletau and Farrell.

by **LondonTiger** Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:55 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I personally thought AWJ played himself firmly into test jersey contention against the Crusaders. He carried with ferocity, played his part in the set piece and tackled very well.

I thought he looked much more like his old self and at times his leadership was highly important, but a lack of fitness was palpable. What he was able to do was to a decent standard, but too often I felt he was labouring a little to get where he needed to be. This was perhaps most obvious in the Crusaders attack that was ultimately deemed to be held up over the line. AWJ was involved in the incident that caused lost possession in the Crusaders half and really struggled to get back to defend.

Some stats from the game:

Tackles - AWJ made 5 missed 2, Kruis 8/1, Itoje 4/0
Turnovers Conceded - AWJ 3, Kruis 1, Itoje 0
Carries - AWJ 7 for 5m, Kruis 7/3m, Itoje 1/0m

On the face of it not horrid - but AWJ was not as busy as the other two combined (accepting of course that Itoje was fresh) and while his carries made more distance, they also conceded possession more often.

I do believe that we will see AWJ play in the tests, and can accept it would not be a horrific decision - even if I do believe other players are in better form. It may even depend upon Warbs match fitness.

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:02 pm

I was probably more focusing on the intagables.

It might have just been early and I was sleep deprived but I though AWJ put in a huge shift, and seemed to be everywhere. Obviously the stats say he didn't play as well as Kruis, who was also outstanding. However I just had it in my mind that AWJ had a stormer.

by GunsGermsV2 Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:05 pm

He looked very good to me too.

by **LondonTiger** Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:12 pm

I would need to see ruck and maul stats, but as I said my gut feel was that he was struggling for fitness.

by GunsGermsV2 Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:35 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I would need to see ruck and maul stats, but as I said my gut feel was that he was struggling for fitness.

Well I dont see why he cant play for 55 minutes and then Itoje or Lawes come in.

by eirebilly Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:22 pm

There seems to be a little negativity surrounding AWJ. I think that he is coming back into form and match fitness at the right time. When fully on form, he is an outstanding player.

Sexton is the same, looked to be carrying a knock but now that has seemingly been resolved, looks to be finding his form as well.

I think the Lions, as a whole, are starting to come together nicely. Tomorrow will be a good marker of where they are.

by mikey_dragon Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:44 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I personally thought AWJ played himself firmly into test jersey contention against the Crusaders. He carried with ferocity, played his part in the set piece and tackled very well.

I thought he looked much more like his old self and at times his leadership was highly important, but a lack of fitness was palpable. What he was able to do was to a decent standard, but too often I felt he was labouring a little to get where he needed to be. This was perhaps most obvious in the Crusaders attack that was ultimately deemed to be held up over the line. AWJ was involved in the incident that caused lost possession in the Crusaders half and really struggled to get back to defend.

Some stats from the game:

Tackles - AWJ made 5 missed 2, Kruis 8/1, Itoje 4/0
Turnovers Conceded - AWJ 3, Kruis 1, Itoje 0
Carries - AWJ 7 for 5m, Kruis 7/3m, Itoje 1/0m

On the face of it not horrid - but AWJ was not as busy as the other two combined (accepting of course that Itoje was fresh) and while his carries made more distance, they also conceded possession more often.

I do believe that we will see AWJ play in the tests, and can accept it would not be a horrific decision - even if I do believe other players are in better form. It may even depend upon Warbs match fitness.

I commented on AWJ performance in the match thread, I knew I would have to as he divides opinion so much. Let's face facts; the English will never rate a player who happens to be both good and Welsh. This comment here from LT is fair and accurate though.

I would start Kruis and Itoje, but now I'm coming around to the idea of having Itoje as a super replacement, I think Gats sees him as that too. We'll have to see how Lawes goes tomorrow before I can comment further on him but so far he's been very good. Kruis is by far the best lock in the NH-he and Faletau were the Lions best players on Saturday I thought.

by No 7&1/2 Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:49 pm

Ironic.

by Gwlad Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:00 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I personally thought AWJ played himself firmly into test jersey contention against the Crusaders. He carried with ferocity, played his part in the set piece and tackled very well.

Kruis and AWJ are the leaders for the test Jersey for me at this stage with Lawes on the bench. I really don't get the Itoje love. He's a good player but he is a bit of a penalty magnet. The last thing we need is to be feeding the All Blacks a steady stream of penalties because getting the ball away from them in the first place is the key to winning IMO.

I totally agree. Lawes is an excellent impact sub and its clear AWJ and Kruis will be the Test starters. Itoje's evident enthusiasm is also indicative of some immaturity and he is won't to give up soft pens. That said I think he is a fine player with a definite chance to be on the bench.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:14 am

Jones has given away 5 pens in 2 games so far. The most of any player.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:23 am

Sadly hogg has been ruled out of the rest of the tour.

by **RDW** Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:45 am

Absolutely gutted for Hogg.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:32 am

That's about as unlucky as you can get. Right up with Doddie Weir going home after Marius Bosman stamped on his knee.

by **RDW** Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:50 am

To be fair it is incredible that we're at the 4th game and we've only lost one - hopefully no more go after today.

by Hammersmith harrier Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:00 am

Our chances just went from slim to very slim; we can only hope that Gatland goes against the grain and selects Watson at full back giving us a real threat from deep.

by BigTrevsbigmac Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:51 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Jones has given away 5 pens in 2 games so far. The most of any player.

I still think he will start but imo doesn't deserve his place.
On the subject of acknowledging good & Welsh players Faletau is in that category as is Liam Williams,Rhys Webb & Tipuric.
However, Imo, only Faletau would be a clear starter out of the 4.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:32 pm

Poor Stuart Hogg Sad

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/06/13/stuart-hogg-exclusive-devastated-leave-lions-sight-matters/

Stuart Hogg wrote: I am absolutely devastated to be leaving the Lions. It means everything to me to be part of this tour and when, on Monday night, I first got the news that I had suffered a facial fracture and had to come home, I cried. I have done several times since then, too. It is tough, really tough, to take.

I had been prepared for the worst when I sat down with Eanna Falvey, the Lions doctor, and Bob Stewart, the physio, and they explained the results of the scan and various opinions from the specialists. Yet it still hit me incredibly hard.

As much as I love being at home, I do not believe I am ready to go. It still has not quite sunk in yet that I am going. I feel my game has been getting better and better in New Zealand and was a lot more confident going into the second game against the Crusaders.

The advice, though, was that I could risk my sight if I received another bang. My eye socket is fractured and the medical advice was unanimous. We got three opinions from specialists and they all said I should not play on.

I am not going to argue with them. I have to look at the long-term. My sight is a hell of a lot more important than rugby.

Warren Gatland agreed. He spoke to me afterwards and said he was so disappointed for me. But he said we could not gamble with my eye and there is more to life than rugby, even though it kills me to say that. It is not something I am prepared to take a risk with.

I phoned my dad John and my wife Gillian afterwards and they were both absolutely gutted because they know how much this means to me. It was my dream to be here and wear the red jersey.

Yet there is no point staying on. I need an operation on the eye so I want to go home to get that done as soon as possible. As much as I would love to stay, you do not want to hang on for too long.

Rugby is a very physical sport and you are prepared for anything when you go onto the pitch but it is just a shame that the injury occurred in a collision with one of my mates in the win against the Crusaders.

I remember Owen Farrell saying "stick the ball in the air" and whatever he says goes so I stuck it up. For the first 10 metres when you are running, you always have your head down trying to get up to top speed. Unfortunately, just as I picked my head up I managed to run straight into Conor Murray and caught his elbow.

I think he was just trying to run a bit of a blocking line for me and stuck his hands up and I must have caught his elbow flush.

I remember hearing Mako Vunipola and Peter O’Mahony both telling me to get off the floor and get back into the defensive line. I remember trying but looking down at my wrist tape and it was covered with blood. It gave me a bit of a fright when I saw it and thankfully the game stopped moments later.

I had suffered two deep cuts and I went into the changing room to get stitched up. I am afraid of needles and did not appreciate having four or five anaesthetics going in and think I called the doctor every name under the sun. I had to apologise to him afterwards.

It took 15 minutes to get stitched up – I needed four in the top cut and three in the one underneath. He did a good job, Conor! Although my head was fine, I could not open my left eye and you have to be able to see out of both eyes to be allowed to play on.

I have had a wee laugh about it all with Conor afterwards. I was rooming with him at the time and he is a close friend from the last tour of Australia four years ago. He has already beaten Glasgow when playing for Munster four times this season so surely that was enough! There is a good photo of us afterwards having a laugh and a cuddle about it.

He has apologised a million times but I said to him that it was a freak accident and I reckon if he did it 99 times out of 100 again it would not have the same outcome. I actually feel bad for him feeling so bad. Conor is a very good friend and nothing is going to change, that is for sure.

The injury is even harder to take because of the bond we have as a group. When you leave home, you leave your family behind but you immediately get your band of brothers here.

There are 77 people on this tour and every one of us gets on with each other and we have all got the same goal of winning the Test series – whether that is the players, the coaches and all the backroom staff.

And I have no doubt they can go on and achieve something special. I truly believe that. Everyone in this environment is born winners and we are beginning to click. You can see it in the performances and we are just starting to get better and better.

We have great options at full-back in the squad – Leigh Halfpenny was the man of the series in 2013 and Liam Williams has been outstanding over the last few years. Jared Payne and Anthony Watson are also outstanding players. They all bring an X-factor to the game and I will back whoever gets the 15 jersey.

It will not be easy to watch but at the same time I will be excited to see the boys go well. I believe the team will be flying and absolutely tearing it up come the first Test against the All Blacks on June 24.

Everyone is fighting for places and everyone wants to be involved in every single game and it is driving up standards in training. It is going to be tough but I believe the boys can do the job.

And as upset as I am, I can honestly say that I have no regrets. I am just grateful for the opportunities I have had to come out here. It was always a dream to wear the Lions jersey and I have now been fortunate enough to do it on two occasions.

I believe that every time I have taken the field I have given absolutely everything and that is all I can ask for. I have loved my few weeks involved with the Lions and while I am bitterly disappointed to go home it has been a huge honour and privilege. I have learned so much over the last month and I believe I can hold my head high.

When everything settles down my goal will be to try to get back on these tours. This is the highest level of rugby you can play at - it is what you strive for every day.

The one positive from all this is that I will be able to see my wife Gillian and my two children again. My daughter Olivia is just 13 weeks old while my son Archie is 19 months. It will be so exciting to see them, even if it is a lot earlier than I thought.

I will be the Lions No 1 fan now and I truly believe that with the potential we have got in the squad the boys can go on and achieve something incredibly special.

All that is left for me to do now is hide BIL, the tour mascot, from Maro Itjoe a couple more times before I fly home...

This whole situation is an absolute Gutter. Not only has the Scottish contingent been reduced again by a rotten bit of luck, but Hogg IMO was in with a very good chance of starting one of the tests and was/is one of the best attacking players we have.

His only chance on this tour was that lethargic performance against the Barbarians. I really feel for him and IMO the Lions chances of success have taken a blow too.

by **RDW** Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:53 pm

by nickj Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:58 pm

Absolutely gutted for him. The only saving grace is that he's young enough to go next time...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40258256

by **RDW** Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:05 pm

He'll be 32 in the one after that too - could happen!

by nickj Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:06 pm

I was thinking that too

by The Great Aukster Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:56 pm

Careers will get shorter, as the players get bigger and more powerful. The average career of a NFL running back is now 2.5 years, and they are the most akin to Rugby players. Ridiculous schedules such as the current Lions on the back of the cumulative effects of a long season is asking for trouble.

Obviously Hogg's injury was accidental but OTOH was there an increased likelihood that it would happen with the Lions rather than with Glasgow or Scotland? Were players unaccustomed to his runs and lines more likely to get in the way?

by **RDW** Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:19 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Careers will get shorter, as the players get bigger and more powerful. The average career of a NFL running back is now 2.5 years, and they are the most akin to Rugby players. Ridiculous schedules such as the current Lions on the back of the cumulative effects of a long season is asking for trouble.

Obviously Hogg's injury was accidental but OTOH was there an increased likelihood that it would happen with the Lions rather than with Glasgow or Scotland? Were players unaccustomed to his runs and lines more likely to get in the way?

I think that's looking far too much into it - it was a freak accident

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