Lions 2017 - the decider

First topic message reminder :



After months if not years, of debate, arguments and plenty bickering the time has come - The Lions are in New Zealand and the tour has begun!

I think it is fair to say that if you're not a fan of the concept of the Lions then this isn't the thread to bring it up - we have had plenty of that over several months and the debate has been done to death. This thread will hopefully be a positive place where those excited about the tour (like me!) can talk about everything that's going on. That's until Jamie Roberts gets a callup of course...

3 June - Provincial union team (Toll Stadium, Whangarei)

7 June - Blues (Eden Park, Auckland)

10 June - Crusaders (AMI Stadium, Christchurch)

13 June - Highlanders (Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin)

17 June - Maori (International Stadium, Rotorua)

20 June - Chiefs (Waikato Stadium, Hamilton)

24 June - New Zealand (First Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

27 June - Hurricanes (Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

1 July - New Zealand (Second Test, Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

8 July - New Zealand (Third Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

You don't think it was more likely to happen with unfamiliar players and that's fine.
I think the opposite. I agree it was freak accident but the likelihood of it happening (however miniscule) are still far greater with unfamiliar players. Some runners like Hogg runs lines close to their own players to 'hide' them from a particular defender. Players know to keep themselves both wide and still to help the screen effect -
Murray didn't

That's gutting for Hogg-he hasn't had much luck on this tour at all. I feel he, like a few others could grow as a Lions player and compete for a test spot. Hopefully he has another crack at the next tour in South Africa. Players are getting knocks everywhere now so it might be time to call up a replacement or two.

It has taken longer than I personally expected, but the suicidal tour schedule appears to be biting. AWJ didn't look so good today, probably because he emptied his tank on Saturday in a fantastic performance. There is now a chance he'll have to play again on Saturday. That IMO is starting to get a bit dangerous. Unless kruis and Itoje are getting a run.

Webb and Biggar limping off is a worry too.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:It has taken longer than I personally expected, but the suicidal tour schedule appears to be biting. AWJ didn't look so good today, probably because he emptied his tank on Saturday in a fantastic performance. There is now a chance he'll have to play again on Saturday. That IMO is starting to get a bit dangerous. Unless kruis and Itoje are getting a run.

Webb and Biggar limping off is a worry too.

Did you really think AWJ played well on Saturday? I thought he's been poor to average so far.

He's touring on reputation and old friends.

Cyril wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:It has taken longer than I personally expected, but the suicidal tour schedule appears to be biting. AWJ didn't look so good today, probably because he emptied his tank on Saturday in a fantastic performance. There is now a chance he'll have to play again on Saturday. That IMO is starting to get a bit dangerous. Unless kruis and Itoje are getting a run.

Webb and Biggar limping off is a worry too.

Did you really think AWJ played well on Saturday? I thought he's been poor to average so far.

He's touring on reputation and old friends.

Yeah I thought he put in a terrific shift. LT, already showed that kruis did more, via some key stats. I also thought Kruis was magnificent.

But yeah I thought AWJ had a stormer on Saturday. His best game since before the 6N.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:It has taken longer than I personally expected, but the suicidal tour schedule appears to be biting. AWJ didn't look so good today, probably because he emptied his tank on Saturday in a fantastic performance. There is now a chance he'll have to play again on Saturday. That IMO is starting to get a bit dangerous. Unless kruis and Itoje are getting a run.

Webb and Biggar limping off is a worry too.

Stander looked absolutely shattered.

Don't know if it's been mentioned or not before, but you can get highlights of the lions tour on S4c in the evenings.

Just mute the sound and listen to some tunes while you watch it

I did find the Lions vs Blues game in full on youtube. No such luck for the Highlanders game.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:It has taken longer than I personally expected, but the suicidal tour schedule appears to be biting. AWJ didn't look so good today, probably because he emptied his tank on Saturday in a fantastic performance. There is now a chance he'll have to play again on Saturday. That IMO is starting to get a bit dangerous. Unless kruis and Itoje are getting a run.

Webb and Biggar limping off is a worry too.

Did you really think AWJ played well on Saturday? I thought he's been poor to average so far.

He's touring on reputation and old friends.

Yeah I thought he put in a terrific shift. LT, already showed that kruis did more, via some key stats. I also thought Kruis was magnificent.

But yeah I thought AWJ had a stormer on Saturday. His best game since before the 6N.

Have to agree with Cyril, I posted about how poor I thought he was on Saturday but many others disagreed. I rewatched the game and still wasn't very impressed!

BamBam wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:It has taken longer than I personally expected, but the suicidal tour schedule appears to be biting. AWJ didn't look so good today, probably because he emptied his tank on Saturday in a fantastic performance. There is now a chance he'll have to play again on Saturday. That IMO is starting to get a bit dangerous. Unless kruis and Itoje are getting a run.

Webb and Biggar limping off is a worry too.

Did you really think AWJ played well on Saturday? I thought he's been poor to average so far.

He's touring on reputation and old friends.

Yeah I thought he put in a terrific shift. LT, already showed that kruis did more, via some key stats. I also thought Kruis was magnificent.

But yeah I thought AWJ had a stormer on Saturday. His best game since before the 6N.

Have to agree with Cyril, I posted about how poor I thought he was on Saturday but many others disagreed. I rewatched the game and still wasn't very impressed!

He got a 7/10 rating from the NZ Herald and a 3/10 from Stuff.co.nz. The Herald didn't comment on replacements, but Stuff went with:
"Alun Wyn Jones 3: Most experienced campaigner, but nothing went well for him after replacing Lawes early. Missed a hard-running Li, conceded a bad offside penalty at a lineout which led to Coltman's try where his pack got rolled, then later was held up to concede a turnover."

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:He got a 7/10 rating from the NZ Herald and a 3/10 from Stuff.co.nz. The Herald didn't comment on replacements, but Stuff went with:
"Alun Wyn Jones 3: Most experienced campaigner, but nothing went well for him after replacing Lawes early. Missed a hard-running Li, conceded a bad offside penalty at a lineout which led to Coltman's try where his pack got rolled, then later was held up to concede a turnover."

Which doesn't look good, but is if you compare it with 3 penalties, 2 turnovers conceded, and 10 runs for 5 metres in the first game.

tigertattie wrote:Don't know if it's been mentioned or not before, but you can get highlights of the lions tour on S4c in the evenings.

Just mute the sound and listen to some tunes while you watch it

I always play the highlights with the Benny Hill theme tune in the background. 

It seems to help the medicine go down.

Ok, things get really serious now... The Lions to face to Maoris have to be on top form, and be the BEST we can field. And by best, I mean BEST side, working together for each other.

Ok, its 2 each at the moment, but we did beat their best (Crusaders). We weren't fully at the races for the first game and where caught by a couple of sucker punches on the games we lost. That doesn't make this Lions squad a bad one and it doesn't hand the tour over to the All Blacks.

The game against the Maoris will be an important milestone on tour, and I expect the Lions to win it and go on to give the All Blacks the Lions tour they have wanted since 1971.

CMON LIONS!!!!

The schedule sure is taking its toll. I think Gats should call up some more English players and knacker them out. The Welsh are done carrying like we have done on previous tours.

Sounds like a great idea, might actually have a chance on tour

BamBam wrote:Sounds like a great idea, might actually have a chance on tour

I couldn't agree more, England's players are in the best form of the home nations. I wonder if that will help them get a representative for Lions man of the tournament? It's been a welsh player on the last 3 tours .

I thought the Lions was meant to be a collective effort but seems like the Welsh only care about themselves.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I thought the Lions was meant to be a collective effort but seems like the Welsh only care about themselves.

Really? I only see the same from the other nations on here. Funny that, perceptions.

The Lions hasn't been a collective for a long time, but neither are they affiliated to any nation. They are a collection of players competing against each other who if they're honest, only care about themselves.

Griff wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I thought the Lions was meant to be a collective effort but seems like the Welsh only care about themselves.

Really? I only see the same from the other nations on here. Funny that, perceptions.

I don't see it from the Irish or the Scottish.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Griff wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I thought the Lions was meant to be a collective effort but seems like the Welsh only care about themselves.

Really? I only see the same from the other nations on here. Funny that, perceptions.

I don't see it from the Irish or the Scottish.

Me neither. I only see it from the English, that's when they can actually take a break from abusing AWJ.

It's called critiquing and if you can't handle a Welsh player being the recipient of negativity you probably shouldn't be on a sports forum.

Remember lads this thread is meant to be a safe haven for Lions fans and somewhere that doesn't have the regular discussions/bickering about national bias etc

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Griff wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I thought the Lions was meant to be a collective effort but seems like the Welsh only care about themselves.

Really? I only see the same from the other nations on here. Funny that, perceptions.

I don't see it from the Irish or the Scottish.

I do.

Like I said, perceptions.

Griff wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Griff wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I thought the Lions was meant to be a collective effort but seems like the Welsh only care about themselves.

Really? I only see the same from the other nations on here. Funny that, perceptions.

I don't see it from the Irish or the Scottish.

I do.

Like I said, perceptions.

The Irish have strangely been the best so far, I guess they know several players are there who are borderline and some that are showing up as duds like Henshaw and Payne. The Scots, after the initial selection pantie bunching have been pretty quiet, of course with Hogg gone they have even less potential for involvement; the English continue to harass and harangue anything Welsh, same as ever. If they showed half the fight in support of the team I'd be happy but no chance of that. You know that if we lose, whatever else happens the Welsh will be to blame from Howley's attack to Gatland's balls to Liam Williams legs and AWJ and Warburton just breathing. And if we win, it will be inspite of the Welsh, just like in 1997 and 2013.

Gwlad wrote:

Griff wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Griff wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I thought the Lions was meant to be a collective effort but seems like the Welsh only care about themselves.

Really? I only see the same from the other nations on here. Funny that, perceptions.

I don't see it from the Irish or the Scottish.

I do.

Like I said, perceptions.

The Irish have strangely been the best so far, I guess they know several players are there who are borderline and some that are showing up as duds like Henshaw and Payne. The Scots, after the initial selection pantie bunching have been pretty quiet, of course with Hogg gone they have even less potential for involvement; the English continue to harass and harangue anything Welsh, same as ever. If they showed half the fight in support of the team I'd be happy but no chance of that. You know that if we lose, whatever else happens the Welsh will be to blame from Howley's attack to Gatland's balls to Liam Williams legs and AWJ and Warburton just breathing. And if we win, it will be inspite of the Welsh, just like in 1997 and 2013.

Pretty true that. Seymour still has a chance at making the test team. However now we are just dirt trackers and bag carriers. Hogg having to leave has really knocked the stuffing out of the tour for me anyway. I'll still be watching and cheering the Lions on, but the shine has been somewhat diminished because he was such an exciting player. I'll be looking to the likes of Daly, Watson and Moriarty for that spark now.

Seymour did put in a good attacking shift but his defence is very questionable. That said, I prefer a winger who will keep oppositions on the back foot with their ability to attack. There were lots of cross field pass attempts made by the Highlanders until Seymour chanced his arm and scored a try, that disrupted the Highlanders attacking plan.

He certainly has a chance to start a test.

Not sure if this had been mentioned but looks like there will be call ups for the remaining midweek games. So probably (& hopefully) minimal adjustments to this team from now on for the Saturday games.

Scottrf wrote:Not sure if this had been mentioned but looks like there will be call ups for the remaining midweek games. So probably (& hopefully) minimal adjustments to this team from now on for the Saturday games.

I mentioned it somewhere on here yesterday - Steve Hansen managed to break the story to the media before Gatland had told the Lions' squad

Scottrf wrote:Not sure if this had been mentioned but looks like there will be call ups for the remaining midweek games. So probably (& hopefully) minimal adjustments to this team from now on for the Saturday games.

Where did you hear this?

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Not sure if this had been mentioned but looks like there will be call ups for the remaining midweek games. So probably (& hopefully) minimal adjustments to this team from now on for the Saturday games.

Where did you hear this?

ESPN. Having relooked it doesn't appear that watertight an article.

I'm assuming a 10 will be top of the list.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Not sure if this had been mentioned but looks like there will be call ups for the remaining midweek games. So probably (& hopefully) minimal adjustments to this team from now on for the Saturday games.

Where did you hear this?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11877590

5 or 6 according to ESPN! If he really wants to rest all of the likely test 23 then he probably needs a new 10 and perhaps a full front row called up, maybe a lock too if he's got concerns over Lawes. Might leave the midweek team something like

1 Marler
2 Best
3 Sinckler/Cole (hard to tell)
4 Henderson
5 AWJ/Lawes
6 Haskell
7 Tupiric
8 Stander

9 Laidlaw
10 Biggar
11 Seymour
12 Henshaw
13 JJ
14 Nowell
15 Williams

Subs - Cian Healy, Fraser Brown, WP Nel, J Gray, Moriarty, Webb, Russell, Payne

Watching the Haka for the Samoa NZ game. Two observations; of all the ABs Ben Smith doesnt give the most threatening performance. Secondly it seems to be becoming more and more an exercise in vanity that anything else. 15 guys chance to look menacing, pout and throw shapes for a couple of minutes.

I don't really get on performances so far how Marler best Tipuric joseph or seymour have been relegated to this.

Kaplan putting pressure on his ex-colleagues http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11877500

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't really get on performances so far how Marler best Tipuric joseph or seymour have been relegated to this.

Neither do I for some of those but all the signs point to them being left out.

Looks like Gatland is preparing everyone for the prospect of Sam Warbuton not being involved in the test, and Warbuton has even been making noises about it lately

Lions head coach Warren Gatland: "This tour isn't about Sam Warburton, it's about putting the squad first, so if he isn't involved in the first Test he will fully understand that."

Gwlad problem is that Wales have over representation in the Lions whilst Scotland have less, Ireland and England about right.

That's why Welsh players get most of the flack.

Wales deserved a larger contingent in 2013 but not 4 years later.

Also you have Gatland and Howley who aren't exactly highly rated outside Wales.

Gatland's stock has fallen since 2013.

Not all Welsh players are criticised - I think people are generally applauding the likes of Owens,Faletau and Webb.

Wales happen to have the most controversial selections like Halfpenny,Biggar,AWJ and Moriarty.


Though the latter is winning people over.

beshocked wrote:Gwlad problem is that Wales have over representation in the Lions whilst Scotland have less, Ireland and England about right.

That's why Welsh players get most of the flack.

Wales deserved a larger contingent in 2013 but not 4 years later.

Also you have Gatland and Howley who aren't exactly highly rated outside Wales.

Gatland's stock has fallen since 2013.

Not all Welsh players are criticised - I think people are generally applauding the likes of Owens,Faletau and Webb.

Wales happen to have the most controversial selections like Halfpenny,Biggar,AWJ and Moriarty.


Though the latter is winning people over.

Wrong thread?

RDW_Scotland wrote:

beshocked wrote:Gwlad problem is that Wales have over representation in the Lions whilst Scotland have less, Ireland and England about right.

That's why Welsh players get most of the flack.

Wales deserved a larger contingent in 2013 but not 4 years later.

Also you have Gatland and Howley who aren't exactly highly rated outside Wales.

Gatland's stock has fallen since 2013.

Not all Welsh players are criticised - I think people are generally applauding the likes of Owens,Faletau and Webb.

Wales happen to have the most controversial selections like Halfpenny,Biggar,AWJ and Moriarty.


Though the latter is winning people over.

Wrong thread?

No, I was answering Gwlad's question because he thinks everyone hates the Welsh.

No , just want the best team to be selected, regardless of nationality.


Warburton out of the squad is sensible but let's see how O Mahony,O Brien, Faletau backrow does.

NZ looking their usual scratchy 1st-game-of-season selves, but have managed to put 4 tries past Samoa in the first half

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:NZ looking their usual scratchy 1st-game-of-season selves, but have managed to put 4 tries past Samoa in the first half

Couldn't they have found an easier game?

(inb4 'the Lions')

Scottrf wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:NZ looking their usual scratchy 1st-game-of-season selves, but have managed to put 4 tries past Samoa in the first half

Couldn't they have found an easier game?

(inb4 'the Lions')

Wales weren't available

In fairness, Samoa have had 56% of possession & are ahead on defenders beaten & turnovers. They've forced NZ to make 58 tackles to their 48 too.

1 of NZ's tries was a 95 metre effort after Samoa butchered an overlap in NZ's 22.

It sounds like Raynal's been harsh on Samoa too

Reasonable warm up for the ABs against Samoa with a 78 - 0 win

Well that was a scary performance from the AB's, Rusty and still put 80+ points on...

Ok.. so what can we draw from that... All Blacks beat Samoa 78-0, so that should mean the Lions will beat All Blacks by 10 points.. I really like these scientific comparisons..

That was a nice wee training run put in by the ABs, Samoa putting up little resistance to the dark wave that swept over them in the end.
There's nothing to be drawn from that game obviously but I reckon it's all the warm up the ABs will need to take the Lions apart.

Come on guys show some unity and back the lions.
They didn't let in any points today so can clearly match the all blacks defensively. Ok the attack stop needs work but Garlands asked halfpenny to get better at that so everything's ok.