Lions 2017 - the decider

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After months if not years, of debate, arguments and plenty bickering the time has come - The Lions are in New Zealand and the tour has begun!

I think it is fair to say that if you're not a fan of the concept of the Lions then this isn't the thread to bring it up - we have had plenty of that over several months and the debate has been done to death. This thread will hopefully be a positive place where those excited about the tour (like me!) can talk about everything that's going on. That's until Jamie Roberts gets a callup of course...

3 June - Provincial union team (Toll Stadium, Whangarei)

7 June - Blues (Eden Park, Auckland)

10 June - Crusaders (AMI Stadium, Christchurch)

13 June - Highlanders (Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin)

17 June - Maori (International Stadium, Rotorua)

20 June - Chiefs (Waikato Stadium, Hamilton)

24 June - New Zealand (First Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

27 June - Hurricanes (Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

1 July - New Zealand (Second Test, Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

8 July - New Zealand (Third Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

A pity that late decision is causing so much acrimony. As has been said there were many close decisions over the match - and indeed the series - which may have affected the result.
End of the day two spirited but flawed teams went head to head and finished level : we got our money's worth , no ?

Don't always agree with Gatland but I salute his achievement in getting a drawn series in NZ

Not many do that...

I think Watson has had a tremendous series. I have to say that Gatland's back 3 selection was bang on and very brave.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I must admit, I am really confused.

I've just had to watch the Scotland vs Oz penalty from the RWC for reference.

In the Scotland game the ball is palmed backwards, bounces off an Australian player and is caught by a Scottish player who is "offside". Now, because it came off yellow and was caught by Blue, that should have been a Scrum? However joubert awarded a pen, the less said the better...

Now, in this match, the ball bounces off Williams, and into a the hands of a Lions player, that should have been a penalty but Poite called it a scrum.

For me, both calls are wrong...

Am I right or completely missing what's going on?

Nope, that's my take as well.

ebop wrote:That was an ultra competitive Lions series. All the way through. The mid-week games and the tests. So good on the Lions

Well said that man. Playing the AB's in New Zealand is the ultimate.

ebop wrote:

Heaf wrote:Exactly - they ignore all the stuff that went in the AB's favour ...

Like ummmmm....ummmmm

Open both eyes and you'll see plenty - first penalty against Warburton when he was on his feet and then neck rolled ... minute later and AB kicks out from own half and the entire team is in front ... plenty more of those in all matches too. ABs tackling player beyond the ruck. ABs falling on the wrong side constantly and getting in the SH's way at rucks ...

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I must admit, I am really confused.

I've just had to watch the Scotland vs Oz penalty from the RWC for reference.

In the Scotland game the ball is palmed backwards, bounces off an Australian player and is caught by a Scottish player who is "offside". Now, because it came off yellow and was caught by Blue, that should have been a Scrum? However joubert awarded a pen, the less said the better...

Now, in this match, the ball bounces off Williams, and into a the hands of a Lions player, that should have been a penalty but Poite called it a scrum.

For me, both calls are wrong...

Am I right or completely missing what's going on?

You're right. Refs wrong on both occasions.
First time I've seen someone catch a ball accidentally....

eirebilly wrote:

The Loaded Dog wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
I actually thought the ball went backwards. It only seemed to go forward due to Williams going backwards further than the ball.

Looked like a bit of play acting by him as well though.

No it definitely went forward. No doubt there.
The problem with the law is the word "intention". Owens was obviously right there next to Williams hoping to gain some advantage. How can one then say that it was unintentional? If the ball had travelled backwards off Williams... then fine. Play on. Owens then intends to take advantage of the spill.

Owens definitely played the ball and immediately dropped it, it was simply a natural reaction. If it was forward (which I still doubt) then it is a penalty.

Anyways, I honestly feel that Williams should have been subbed earlier and Watson sent to 15 as Williams has been very weak under the high ball all series. It was a good call from the AB's to target him with that kick off as it was always going to be 50/50 with him under it. They may not have taken that option had a more secure catcher been on the field.

I understand it's a bit hard to see through that beer stein glued to your face.
Anyway mate... all the best. Nice image on FB a few weeks back. It's real isn't it? If so he will be another champ!

Geech just said "The Lions is the biggest thing these guys can play against".

Erm... Sir Ian they didn't win, so what you're saying is that the constituent teams have no chance against the ABs - perpetuating that loser mentality is what threatens the Lions most of all.

The Loaded Dog wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

The Loaded Dog wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

The Loaded Dog wrote:What an anti-climax to the series.
Offside is offside. NZ robbed there thanks to Poite.

Incorrect. Emphasis is on their being an intention to be offside and interfer and he has no time to react and pulled out immediately.

Was their intention though with him standing so close to the receiver... as if he was intending to gain some advantage should the ball have gone backwards? Can't have it both ways!

I actually thought the ball went backwards. It only seemed to go forward due to Williams going backwards further than the ball.

Looked like a bit of play acting by him as well though.

No it definitely went forward. No doubt there.
The problem with the law is the word "intention". Owens was obviously right there next to Williams hoping to gain some advantage. How can one then say that it was unintentional? If the ball had travelled backwards off Williams... then fine. Play on. Owens then intends to take advantage of the spill.

Personally I think that should have been a penalty to the All Blacks. Having said that the penalty they had at the start against Warburton which was also just in front of the posts was not a penalty so these things even themselves out.

Some of the All Blacks fans having showed themselves to be bad winners in the first match and bad losers in the second, are now managing to be bad drawers too.

It is for some just not you auk.

One things for sure the talk of the Lions being a thing of the past and having no place in modern rugby has once again been proven to be rubbish, and I really hope this chat of shortening future tours doesn't happen.

The midweek results from this tour were very disappointing but you can't deny that the Lions fronted up against the best team in the world. We rode our luck at times but that's the way it is!

Heaf wrote:

ebop wrote:

Heaf wrote:Exactly - they ignore all the stuff that went in the AB's favour ...

Like ummmmm....ummmmm

Open both eyes and you'll see plenty - first penalty against Warburton when he was on his feet and then neck rolled ... minute later and AB kicks out from own half and the entire team is in front ... plenty more of those in all matches too.  ABs tackling player beyond the ruck.  ABs falling on the wrong side constantly and getting in the SH's way at rucks ...

Blah blah blah heaf

There's not enough hours in the day to micro-analyse the this and that's

And yet that's what you're doing on one call .... hypocritical much?

Farrell and George were the two worst Lions today. Hate to say it but told you so. Two awful throws from George at key moments.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Farrell and George were the two worst Lions today. Hate to say it but told you so. Two awful throws from George at key moments.

OTOH Farrell was the reason we didn't lose.

Well done both sides Lions did there fans proud
I doubt if I`ll live to see the next NZ one.

ebop wrote:

Heaf wrote:

ebop wrote:

Heaf wrote:Exactly - they ignore all the stuff that went in the AB's favour ...

Like ummmmm....ummmmm

Open both eyes and you'll see plenty - first penalty against Warburton when he was on his feet and then neck rolled ... minute later and AB kicks out from own half and the entire team is in front ... plenty more of those in all matches too.  ABs tackling player beyond the ruck.  ABs falling on the wrong side constantly and getting in the SH's way at rucks ...

Blah blah blah heaf

There's not enough hours in the day to micro-analyse the this and that's

Quite right. Refs get things wrong in every match. These things even themselves out as they did in this match with in my view the All Blacks wrongly getting an easy penalty kick in the first half and wrongly being denied one at the end.

It is all academic anyway as who is to say the All Blacks would not have missed the kick anyway.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Farrell and George were the two worst Lions today. Hate to say it but told you so. Two awful throws from George at key moments.

I thought Best was outstanding in the commentary team, he's a natural.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Farrell and George were the two worst Lions today. Hate to say it but told you so. Two awful throws from George at key moments.

Farrell's been a major disappointment. It does make me wonder if England with him lose something for everything they gain re his kicking etc. Maybe some players just take longer to slot into new systems? George has been OK but was v poor today.

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Farrell and George were the two worst Lions today. Hate to say it but told you so. Two awful throws from George at key moments.

OTOH Farrell was the reason we didn't lose.

Oh dear. The golden boy of England can do no wrong. I think the debate over who is better between Sexton and Farrell is over. Farrell should have been dropped after the first test. He was dire.

Heaf wrote:And yet that's what you're doing on one call .... hypocritical much?

No heaf. You see, there was a penalty that occurred a couple of minutes before time, and the coward of a French referee didn't have the nerve to blow it up as a penalty. He choked.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Farrell and George were the two worst Lions today. Hate to say it but told you so. Two awful throws from George at key moments.

I thought Best was outstanding in the commentary team, he's a natural.

He is a much better player than George. Where is this great throwing England fans keep banging on about. His throwing is weak.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Farrell and George were the two worst Lions today. Hate to say it but told you so. Two awful throws from George at key moments.

OTOH Farrell was the reason we didn't lose.

Oh dear. The golden boy of England can do no wrong. I think the debate over who is better between Sexton and Farrell is over. Farrell should have been dropped after the first test. He was dire.

Didn't take the spirit of solidarity long to unravel eh Guns The problem with taking Farrell out is you wouldn't want to rely on Sexton's kicking.

As a neutral this exchange is fascinating

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Farrell and George were the two worst Lions today. Hate to say it but told you so. Two awful throws from George at key moments.

Be very careful. I ended up with one of my comments reported for trying to make such a statement and then for defending myself against the oncoming hissy fits. Like I said, given the criticism made against Best for the exact mistakes George made, I think it is worth the discussion. Clearly in high pressure situations, like kickers, even the most consistent throwers can be guilty of making these errors.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Farrell and George were the two worst Lions today. Hate to say it but told you so. Two awful throws from George at key moments.

OTOH Farrell was the reason we didn't lose.

Oh dear. The golden boy of England can do no wrong. I think the debate over who is better between Sexton and Farrell is over. Farrell should have been dropped after the first test. He was dire.

What debate is this?

Both players were pretty poor today to be fair although Farrell kicked his goals well and ultimately got us the draw.

The Lions looked at their most dangerous when Sexton was off and Farrell/Te'o combined.

Sexton was poor again. Murray is so ponderous too.

Lions would have lost if Best was playing. Gatland got some choices right at least.

Exiledinborders wrote:

ebop wrote:

Heaf wrote:

ebop wrote:

Heaf wrote:Exactly - they ignore all the stuff that went in the AB's favour ...

Like ummmmm....ummmmm

Open both eyes and you'll see plenty - first penalty against Warburton when he was on his feet and then neck rolled ... minute later and AB kicks out from own half and the entire team is in front ... plenty more of those in all matches too.  ABs tackling player beyond the ruck.  ABs falling on the wrong side constantly and getting in the SH's way at rucks ...

Blah blah blah heaf

There's not enough hours in the day to micro-analyse the this and that's

Quite right. Refs get things wrong in every match. These things even themselves out as they did in this match with in my view the All Blacks wrongly getting an easy penalty kick in the first half and wrongly being denied one at the end.

It is all academic anyway as who is to say the All Blacks would not have missed the kick anyway.

Precisely - they bang on about one call but then when you point out there were plenty of others in their favour throughout the game they ask like what so you give examples and then you're supposedly micro-analysing ... jeez

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Farrell and George were the two worst Lions today. Hate to say it but told you so. Two awful throws from George at key moments.

On a scale of 1-10, how much do you hate to say it?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Farrell and George were the two worst Lions today. Hate to say it but told you so. Two awful throws from George at key moments.

OTOH Farrell was the reason we didn't lose.

Oh dear. The golden boy of England can do no wrong. I think the debate over who is better between Sexton and Farrell is over. Farrell should have been dropped after the first test. He was dire.

He was poor but his kicks got the draw ultimately. Sexton couldn't find touch from hand.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Farrell and George were the two worst Lions today. Hate to say it but told you so. Two awful throws from George at key moments.

I thought Best was outstanding in the commentary team, he's a natural.

He is a much better player than George. Where is this great throwing England fans keep banging on about. His throwing is weak.

Yet Best STILL gets nowhere near the squad....bizarre. Best would have misses 5 or 6 throws today.

Best was a great pundit though, he really stepped up his game and put in a solid showing.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Farrell and George were the two worst Lions today. Hate to say it but told you so. Two awful throws from George at key moments.

Neither had their best games although Farrell nailed the kicks.

Worst two players were AWJ who was almost invisible again and Williams who seems unable to take a high ball without knocking on.

"My player is better than yours!"

David-Douglas wrote:First time I've seen someone catch a ball accidentally....

Steve Walsh once did that too in a England match.

Itoje, Faletau and Davies probably the best players today for the Lions. Warburton was good too.

Farrell was ice cool with the boot but the backs didn't get much chance to shine. Watson did well with what he had.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:"My player is better than yours!"

Tommy's Seymour, top try scorer in the series... No test caps

Farrell had a bad game yes.. but he kicked the goals and lets be honest most of his shots were right on margins and yet he put them away.
Few would have made such shots under pressure.

Neil Jenkins won the series for the lions in 97.... playing at fullback and their were probably a dozen players if not more better suited and he was drilled in attack. Yet he kicked the shots and kept the lions in the game especially in the 2nd test.

You have to say the same for Farrell.

As of George. He made 2 big mistakes in attacking lineouts but in reality it was as mucH to do with the call then anything else.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Farrell and George were the two worst Lions today. Hate to say it but told you so. Two awful throws from George at key moments.

OTOH Farrell was the reason we didn't lose.

Oh dear. The golden boy of England can do no wrong. I think the debate over who is better between Sexton and Farrell is over. Farrell should have been dropped after the first test. He was dire.

It seems to me that Owen Farrell is fast becoming the Wayne Rooney of international rugby. No matter how badly he plays he's always "the first name on the sheet" and even though his kicking percentage during the tour was even worse than Beuden Barrett's, one of them is a liability and the other is "You wouldn't want anyone else taking that kick". Maybe Lee Halfpenny (100% kicking success on tour)? Or "he adds so much creativity in the centre". Well he was very creative for the ABs today.

You can be sure that next tour, no matter what happens in the next four years it will be a case of "Where do we play Owen Farrell, because you can't leave him out of the team?"

You can't just look at percentages though. The last two were near the half way line, one out to the side one to level the series.

Nobody is claiming he played well but that is valuable.

Heaf wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

ebop wrote:

Heaf wrote:

ebop wrote:

Heaf wrote:Exactly - they ignore all the stuff that went in the AB's favour ...

Like ummmmm....ummmmm

Open both eyes and you'll see plenty - first penalty against Warburton when he was on his feet and then neck rolled ... minute later and AB kicks out from own half and the entire team is in front ... plenty more of those in all matches too.  ABs tackling player beyond the ruck.  ABs falling on the wrong side constantly and getting in the SH's way at rucks ...

Blah blah blah heaf

There's not enough hours in the day to micro-analyse the this and that's

Quite right. Refs get things wrong in every match. These things even themselves out as they did in this match with in my view the All Blacks wrongly getting an easy penalty kick in the first half and wrongly being denied one at the end.

It is all academic anyway as who is to say the All Blacks would not have missed the kick anyway.

Precisely - they bang on about one call but then when you point out there were plenty of others in their favour throughout the game they ask like what so you give examples and then you're supposedly micro-analysing ... jeez

No Heaf, I could rattle off dozens of times in that game alone where the Lions were offside but unpenalised. It's not about tit-for-tat over the whole game stuff because it's not the point. It's about the call, the most important of calls, the one that can influence the game with unprecedented TMO intervention and the guy chokes on his French baguette. He's a coward. It's ok. A drawn series it is. What do the French say, say la ve or some shiite like that.

Any call at any point can change the game from that point onwards - just because it's near the end doesn't make it more important.

Hood83 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:In fairness, I have knocked Gatland a lot but that is some result.

History will show that he has coached 6 Lions tests, won 3 lost 2 and drawn 1. That is pretty impressive.

Yep, and a helluva result for the players. Scratch side and after the first game I thought they'd pump us. The ABs were the better team but my word they looked average at times. It should give the home nations and Ireland a real boost, my only slight concern is how few English players stepped up to this level. Thought the Welsh and Murray/SOB and to a lesser extent Sexton, were immense.

Think gatland has been vindicated over warburton and wyn jones.  Davies was great in the first two tests, but thought he switched off for the first try (prob wouldn't have stopped it regardless) and made a call to stop the offload for the second which didn't come off). Williams was targeted and 50:50 under the high ball. Falapo was solid but unspectacular. In general though the Welsh lads stepped up the Irish did well, not all the English lived up to expectations.

Farrell was disappointing but you can't discount his clutch kicking to keep the team in it. Itoje definitely stepped up for me. George was fine bar a couple of crucial throws at the end. Watson did pretty well, the rest were ok at best.

It's not about 'nations' for me though. On days like today I'm B&I.

Well done to both sides... Great series, and well done Gats, you kept to your guns and have done something not many can do... NOT LOSE Lions series to All Blacks...

Perhaps the organisers should have agreed (before the tour) that the 3rd Test (if series drawn) would play extra time. No one wants to see the drawn series..

Still well done to ALL Lions..... you all played your part.

Draw a test series and Kiwi fans with xenophobic attacks against the French. True colours.

Heaf wrote:Any call at any point can change the game from that point onwards - just because it's near the end doesn't make it more important.

Clearly it was because Warburton talked the weak minded Poite into taking it to the TMO

Even the TMO said it was a penalty

Then Poite choked.......gave it a scrum, lol

And he even brought the captains together and tried to get Read to agree that it was the honourable thing to do. As in, not have the series decided on an 'admittedly' pedantic decision, lol

Don't get me wrong mate, the Lions have had a cracking series and should be proud

But French referees are suspect

Scottrf wrote:Draw a test series and Kiwi fans with xenophobic attacks against the French. True colours.

No

You're just being predictable

Kicks 12 points

Is total rubbish

Well I'd say none are as bad as Peyper ...

Although Joubert ain't too clever either ...

Well done Lions.... I think.
Great series and we sure did underestimate the class of the Lions side.

Frankly, I wish the Lions toured here every year.

This was a great experience. Kudos to the Lions class of 2017!