Political round up.............

by **superflyweight** Tue 21 Nov 2017, 8:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

LionsV2 wrote:
Galted wrote:

As much as I agree with you that much of the reason for the Leave vote was the racism and pig-ignorance of the likes of Lionsv2 and old people, I'm not sure the questions you're asking are particularly relevant. I'd quite like a cut in local crime but couldn't name a single local criminal.

I beg your pardon?

No doubt the mods will do nothing about that.

He said you were “PIG IGNORANT”. I’ve heard of hard of hearing before but not hard of reading.

by lostinwales Thu 16 Aug 2018, 4:33 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:But even more embarrassing is that the Tories are still in power with catastrophic May still at the helm. This just goes to show the pathetic options open to voters in the UK (well a majority of it).

Yep. Every time you see someone like Davies or Hunt say something really stupid you can't imagine it could get worse, then up steps Loathsome, Raab or Chris Grayling. Labour is better but there isn't much talent on the front bench.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 16 Aug 2018, 4:35 pm

Duty281 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Pure supposition....

Any "half decent leader" you are talking about wouldn't have flooded the marginals with three bus loads of activists and had a Social media army..

Miliband 30% in 2015
Blair 35% in 2005..
Brown 29% in 2010..
Corbyn 40% in 2017..

UKIP and Lib Dems 20% in 2015
Lib Dems 22% in 2005
Lib Dems 23% in 2010
Lib Dems and UKIP 9% in 2017

That's why Corbyn got 40% - the complete collapse of a viable 3rd party.

Put someone half-decent in - Kier Starmer, Yvette Cooper, even David M - and watch Labour dominate the polls. Yes, Corbyn understands social media well and is pretty much the only UK politician (aside from Farage) who utilises it properly, but he won't win Labour General Elections.

262 seats against Theresa May...embarrassing.

Blair 2005 - 9.6m votes
Brown 2010 - 8.6m votes
Miliband 2015 - 9.3m votes
Corbyn 2017 - 12.9m votes

You can say embarrassing all you want but Corbyn got the people out to vote....

Cooper polled worse with Yougov than Corbyn against the Tories before the GE17.....

Facts don't always tell you what you want.....Corbyn got the biggest rise in vote share since 1945..

by GSC Thu 16 Aug 2018, 5:12 pm

Be interested to know how many of those are new voters vs those he's managed to take off May and co. Both are good but suspect Labour need more of the latter to take a maj

by **navyblueshorts** Thu 16 Aug 2018, 5:14 pm

lostinwales wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The Media is scared of change so they are throwing smear after smear at him...

I imagine Schools..Hospitals....Standard of living trumps Establishment bullying in most peoples eyes....

You keep smearing someone with crap.......Eventually when you have a case against him people won't listen..

Corbyn will survive this and maybe stronger after it.....The media are crying wolf.

No he's all but useless. It is not just the smears (which are not without foundation) but the way he deals with them. 34 years on the back benches just doing his thing with no pressure and no achievements does not make for a great leader. I know we all need hope and an alternative from the May+ co but I just don't get the obsession with JC, and it seems that outside of his core supporters I am not alone.

The state of our current political system is abysmal, and he plays a full part in that. He's May's most important asset.

He does get a rough time from the media but a stronger more savvy character would be able to push attention elsewhere. The best of his policies don't depend on him. He does get more attention than other Labour politicians, but you see attacks on the likes of Khan or Lammy have little or no effect.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 16 Aug 2018, 9:15 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The Media is scared of change so they are throwing smear after smear at him...

I imagine Schools..Hospitals....Standard of living trumps Establishment bullying in most peoples eyes....

You keep smearing someone with crap.......Eventually when you have a case against him people won't listen..

Corbyn will survive this and maybe stronger after it.....The media are crying wolf.

No he's all but useless. It is not just the smears (which are not without foundation) but the way he deals with them. 34 years on the back benches just doing his thing with no pressure and no achievements does not make for a great leader. I know we all need hope and an alternative from the May+ co but I just don't get the obsession with JC, and it seems that outside of his core supporters I am not alone.

The state of our current political system is abysmal, and he plays a full part in that. He's May's most important asset.

He does get a rough time from the media but a stronger more savvy character would be able to push attention elsewhere. The best of his policies don't depend on him. He does get more attention than other Labour politicians, but you see attacks on the likes of Khan or Lammy have little or no effect.

Brown....Miliband and Kinnock were all frontbenchers and they didn't make for great leaders..

Labour membership is at its highest in over 50 years (300,000 more than Miliband)...............He got the highest vote share since 1997.....

Not bad for a crap leader..

by lostinwales Fri 17 Aug 2018, 11:54 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The Media is scared of change so they are throwing smear after smear at him...

I imagine Schools..Hospitals....Standard of living trumps Establishment bullying in most peoples eyes....

You keep smearing someone with crap.......Eventually when you have a case against him people won't listen..

Corbyn will survive this and maybe stronger after it.....The media are crying wolf.

No he's all but useless. It is not just the smears (which are not without foundation) but the way he deals with them. 34 years on the back benches just doing his thing with no pressure and no achievements does not make for a great leader. I know we all need hope and an alternative from the May+ co but I just don't get the obsession with JC, and it seems that outside of his core supporters I am not alone.

The state of our current political system is abysmal, and he plays a full part in that. He's May's most important asset.

He does get a rough time from the media but a stronger more savvy character would be able to push attention elsewhere. The best of his policies don't depend on him. He does get more attention than other Labour politicians, but you see attacks on the likes of Khan or Lammy have little or no effect.

Brown....Miliband and Kinnock were all frontbenchers and they didn't make for great leaders..

Labour membership is at its highest in over 50 years (300,000 more than Miliband)...............He got the highest vote share since 1997.....

Not bad for a crap leader..

Old stats (apart from the membership thing). GE share was partially tactical voting, partially lack of alternatives and partially because at the time he was still being portrayed as a new exciting political presence - something different- rather than the old reactionary dinosaur he actually is.

More current stats would seem to suggest that in a two horse race to consider who would make the best PM between him and May he comes in 3rd behind May and the run away winner 'Don't know'.

Of the three names listed above - Brown - its always a tough gig taking over an exhausted government, and I suspect time will be kinder to him as it has been to Major who was in a very similar position. Brains is not a prerequisite for leadership but it is worth pointing out that Brown is an intellectual giant compared to JC.
Labour elected the wrong Milliband but I'd still suggest that Ed is a decent guy, and I am not sure I could say the same about JC. Kinnock should of won, didn't, but did lay the foundations for the successful three term Labour government that came after. He also (like Milliband) stood down after not winning a GE.

I don't trust a man who would seek to let the UK destroy itself with Brexit because he feels it would give him a greater opportunity to get into power.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 17 Aug 2018, 12:21 pm

New Stats....

Labour are ahead in every poll bar one....Labour has nearly six times more members than any other Party...The leader has 1.85m followers which is four times as many as the Prime Minister...

Your opinion is all well and good.....Do I think Labour would be better with Thornberry maybe but she would never energise the base of her Party like this guy.

Crap leaders don't energise their base.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 17 Aug 2018, 1:20 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The Media is scared of change so they are throwing smear after smear at him...

I imagine Schools..Hospitals....Standard of living trumps Establishment bullying in most peoples eyes....

You keep smearing someone with crap.......Eventually when you have a case against him people won't listen..

Corbyn will survive this and maybe stronger after it.....The media are crying wolf.

No he's all but useless. It is not just the smears (which are not without foundation) but the way he deals with them. 34 years on the back benches just doing his thing with no pressure and no achievements does not make for a great leader. I know we all need hope and an alternative from the May+ co but I just don't get the obsession with JC, and it seems that outside of his core supporters I am not alone.

The state of our current political system is abysmal, and he plays a full part in that. He's May's most important asset.

He does get a rough time from the media but a stronger more savvy character would be able to push attention elsewhere. The best of his policies don't depend on him. He does get more attention than other Labour politicians, but you see attacks on the likes of Khan or Lammy have little or no effect.

Brown....Miliband and Kinnock were all frontbenchers and they didn't make for great leaders..

Labour membership is at its highest in over 50 years (300,000 more than Miliband)...............He got the highest vote share since 1997.....

Not bad for a crap leader..

Maybe. He's still scheiss, is a nasty bit of work and Labour are at high water with no attempt to woo floaters or soft Tories. The best they'll get at the next GE is another hung Parliament. He's like Foot/Kinnock prior to everyone realising there's no chance of any real power.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 17 Aug 2018, 2:33 pm

Labour have got more members than the Green Party got votes at the last Election..

I don't think he is nasty....I think he is a well intentioned idiot....

Not a bar to being a successful leader though.....As his statistics show...

Wiped off 20m worth of Labour Party debt with new members money..

Ahead in the poll of polls...

Got 40% at GE17..better than Blair in 2005..Won 30 Seats..

Won Two leadership landslides...

Taken over all of the Labour internal structure..

Not bad in three years..

Would I prefer Thornberry....Yes.......

Best to look at these things dispassionately...Instead of throwing emotive language around and keep away from the Daily Mail..

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 17 Aug 2018, 5:14 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Labour have got more members than the Green Party got votes at the last Election..

I don't think he is nasty....I think he is a well intentioned idiot....

Not a bar to being a successful leader though.....As his statistics show...

Wiped off 20m worth of Labour Party debt with new members money..

Ahead in the poll of polls...

Got 40% at GE17..better than Blair in 2005..Won 30 Seats..

Won Two leadership landslides...

Taken over all of the Labour internal structure..

Not bad in three years..

Would I prefer Thornberry....Yes.......

Best to look at these things dispassionately...Instead of throwing emotive language around and keep away from the Daily Mail..

And you were doing so well until that last bit. Plus ça change...

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 17 Aug 2018, 9:09 pm

Glad you agreed with most of it anyway...

I aim to please..

By the way there aren't any Floating voters.....Why the top 2 parties are pretty much on 40%..

All I know is at the moment 5/7 pollsters have Corbyn and the SNP in Downing St.

If he gets in he drops the voting age to 16 and goes again..

by lostinwales Fri 17 Aug 2018, 10:18 pm

Just saw this. Backs up much of what has been said

Conservative Party General Election Vote Share since Corbyn became an MP:
‘87 vs Kinnock: 42.2%
‘92 vs Kinnock: 41.9%
‘97 vs Blair: 30.7%
‘01 vs Blair: 31.7%
‘05 vs Blair: 32.4%
‘10 vs Brown: 36.1%
‘15 vs Miliband: 36.9%
‘17 vs Corbyn: 42.4%

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 19 Aug 2018, 3:07 pm

Kantar......Con 40....Lab 39
Opinium...Con 39...Lab 38
Delta.........Lab 40...Con 37

Opinium......33% say Labour are Anti Semitic
....................27% say Tories are Islamophobic

What a time to be living in.

by Duty281 Tue 21 Aug 2018, 12:47 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If he gets in he drops the voting age to 16 and goes again..

Inevitable, with or without Corbyn.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 22 Aug 2018, 1:32 pm

ICM

Con 40
Lab 40

Think Brexit is keeping Con/Labour locked..

Maybe one side will break free after March 2019..

by lostinwales Wed 22 Aug 2018, 2:00 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:ICM

Con 40
Lab 40

Think Brexit is keeping Con/Labour locked..

Maybe one side will break free after March 2019..

Not much coverage of Corbyn failing to answer the same question 5 or 6 times in a C4 interview yet then

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 22 Aug 2018, 3:41 pm

I see Labour raised 10 million more than the Tories in 2017..

56m vs 46m..

Who would ever have thought that...

by Duty281 Wed 22 Aug 2018, 4:55 pm

lostinwales wrote:

Not much coverage of Corbyn failing to answer the same question 5 or 6 times in a C4 interview yet then

Made for good comedy, though. Especially the bit where Corbyn insisted that "I've answered your question five times."

by Duty281 Wed 22 Aug 2018, 4:56 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I see Labour raised 10 million more than the Tories in 2017..

56m vs 46m..

Who would ever have thought that...

Labour are the party for the few, not the many. Just look at their membership demographics - overwhelmingly middle-class.

by Samo Wed 22 Aug 2018, 5:28 pm

Duty281 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I see Labour raised 10 million more than the Tories in 2017..

56m vs 46m..

Who would ever have thought that...

Labour are the party for the few, not the many. Just look at their membership demographics - overwhelmingly middle-class.

The same as every other political party?

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 22 Aug 2018, 6:46 pm

Duty281 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I see Labour raised 10 million more than the Tories in 2017..

56m vs 46m..

Who would ever have thought that...

Labour are the party for the few, not the many. Just look at their membership demographics - overwhelmingly middle-class.

Either make statements you can back up. Or let the Adults debate.

You have no idea who is a member of Labour and who isn't..

The Tories are on 45% with working class voters but I bet most of their members are rich and upper class..

by Samo Wed 22 Aug 2018, 6:51 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I see Labour raised 10 million more than the Tories in 2017..

56m vs 46m..

Who would ever have thought that...

Labour are the party for the few, not the many. Just look at their membership demographics - overwhelmingly middle-class.

Either make statements you can back up. Or let the Adults debate.

You have no idea who is a member of Labour and who isn't..

The Tories are on 45% with working class voters but I bet most of their members are rich and upper class..

Im looking at the figures from the HoC library.

Party member % that belong in Social Class ABC1 (which is lower middle class to upper middle class)

Lib Dem: 85%
Cons: 83%
Green: 77%
Labour: 77%
SNP: 71%
UKIP: 65%

While he's not technically wrong, its certainly cherry picking. Its almost as if people who are on lower incomes choose not to spend money joining a political party. Funny that.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 22 Aug 2018, 7:19 pm

So Labour has less middle class members than the other two Parties and of the 77%..A fair percentage are Lower middle class whatever that means..

Beware sweeping statements.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 22 Aug 2018, 7:23 pm

If Lower middle class is the class between working and middle...

Then I can call them upper working class..and win the argument that way..

by lostinwales Thu 23 Aug 2018, 11:16 am

Labour are a party currently run by middle and upper class socialists based on what they think working class people should want and believe in.

I would not be at all surprised if JC has spent more time in the middle east than in NE England.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sat 01 Sep 2018, 10:28 am

Yougov..

Con 39
Lab 37

Rasmusson

Trump..

Approval.....48
Disapprove 50

21% of Americans think Trump will be impeached before 2020...

Midterm Elections....(likely voters)

Dem 36
Rep..33

Rasmusson is right....GOP keep the Senate...

Though like Yougov with the Tories...They are the most favourable pollster on numbers to the GOP.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 03 Sep 2018, 10:06 am

600 Police stations closed since 2010..

No wonder crime is going up..

by Duty281 Tue 04 Sep 2018, 2:09 pm

The split of the Labour Party is getting closer by the day. The NEC elections have been dominated, again, by the 'Momentum' rabble.

Excellent stuff.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 04 Sep 2018, 4:20 pm

Duty281 wrote:The split of the Labour Party is getting closer by the day. The NEC elections have been dominated, again, by the 'Momentum' rabble.

Excellent stuff.

170 mps having no faith in Corbyn didn't stop him winning seats last time..

I imagine a new Centrist party would appeal to left of centre Tories that despair of Brexiteer morons like Boris and Mogg dominating polls featuring Tory members...

If I was Corbyn I'd welcome it.....Brexit will be a disaster and Labour will be the "other" option..

by Samo Tue 04 Sep 2018, 5:26 pm

British politics is a Poopie right now. Labour tearing themselves apart over Antisemitism, the Tories tearing each other apart over Brexit, SNP have no sway south of the border, Lib Dems still havent shaken off the stink over the ConDem coalition, UKIP have dissolved into a non-entity and the rest are too small to even be worth considering.

Part of me almost thinks we need a centrist party purely to shake things up a bit.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 04 Sep 2018, 9:29 pm

Survation..

Lab 41
Con 37

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 05 Sep 2018, 8:55 am

Samo wrote:British politics is a Poopie right now. Labour tearing themselves apart over Antisemitism, the Tories tearing each other apart over Brexit, SNP have no sway south of the border, Lib Dems still havent shaken off the stink over the ConDem coalition, UKIP have dissolved into a non-entity and the rest are too small to even be worth considering.

Part of me almost thinks we need a centrist party purely to shake things up a bit.

A decent sized, centrist party would be useful, that's for sure. If nothing else, it'll likely prevent Labour or Tories winning an outright majority under the current FPP system for the foreseeable future. Here's hoping anyway.

by SecretFly Wed 05 Sep 2018, 11:01 am

The return of Paddy Ashdown?

"It's not because we believe what we say but because we think it necessary to say we believe the things that need to be said that are believable unless to pretend to believe something becomes dangerous and likely to bring unneeded clarity to the unwelcome fudge of politics today"

"But will you stand again, Mr Ashdown? That was the question."

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 06 Sep 2018, 11:27 am

France Yougov...

Macron Approval...

Approve......23
Disapprove.69...

Shocking numbers.....Trump would be embarrassed.

by lostinwales Thu 06 Sep 2018, 12:07 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:France Yougov...

Macron Approval...

Approve......23
Disapprove.69...

Shocking numbers.....Trump would be embarrassed.

US and French systems are not directly comparable

by MrInvisible Thu 06 Sep 2018, 12:53 pm

On the French polling figures, those are pretty bad for Macron, who I would have thought would have had a bit more of a honeymoon period. Macron is the closest France has had to a Tony Blair type figure, and he used a lot of Blair-like tricks of the trade very successfully during the presidential election, together with a clever strategy of painting himself as an outsider (when he was in fact a real establishment figure) due to not being aligned to one of the 2 main political parties. However, in office he has not been so sure-footed and has made a few unforced errors e.g. the scandal over his bodyguard beating up a protester. The right-wing reforms on workers rights, etc, he is trying to bring in are also not proving popular - obviously he is trying to push these through early on in his presidency.

Also, he was never *that* popular in the first place, and a lot of the electorate leant their votes to him to defeat Le Pen in the final round. He also benefited from the main centre-right candidate Fillon being engulfed in a corruption scandal (if their candidate had been the more moderate and untainted Juppe Macron might not have reached the final round). His more committed supporters are still with him, but he's lost a lot of support from voters who were giving him the benefit of the doubt to begin with.

However, due to the divided nature of the opposition he will be OK - the strongest opposition is probably from Melenchon's leftist grouping, though their support appears to have reached a ceiling whilst the right is split between the mainstream right of centre support for the Republicains party (Sarkozy's party), some of whom will have gone over to Macron and the anti-immigration hard/alt-right who are mostly in Le Pen's camp (confusingly for left-right political spectrum, some of Le Pen's support base are disgruntled former socialists in the poorer north/north-east of the country).

by SecretFly Thu 06 Sep 2018, 4:55 pm

lostinwales wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:France Yougov...

Macron Approval...

Approve......23
Disapprove.69...

Shocking numbers.....Trump would be embarrassed.

US and French systems are not directly comparable

Yes. The French burn sheep and the Americans shoot.................... well anything that moves mostly.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 06 Sep 2018, 6:38 pm

Macron polled in the 40s for a good period after becoming President...

Now the same polls have him dropping alarmingly...

by Samo Sun 09 Sep 2018, 9:26 am

Labour still tearing themselves apart from within. They need to get united, and quick. If this centrist party does form the Labour run the risk of losing a massive number of voters, and could very well become the UKIP of the left - massive grass roots support but spread too thin to be really effective at a national level.

The Cult of Corbyn need to accept they need the centre left members like Umunna and the centre left need to accept that they cant effectively challenge the Tories unless they support Corbyn. Beat the Tories first, then settle any internal squabbles.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun 09 Sep 2018, 1:06 pm

Spectre of Blair hangs over a new Party......

YG

App 13%
Disapp 69%..

Not sure it will have much effect....I imagine it will attract as many Tories who think this Govt stinks as people who think Labour is unelectable..

Work with mainly Tories and they seem open to a Centrist alternative a few of them anyway..

Problem with a Centrist Party is the people discussing it think Brexit is a bigger issue than it is with voters..

It isn't the main driver...They will need policies..

We will see what happens with the Lib Dem leadership...Maybe Labour will defect there..

by **navyblueshorts** Sun 09 Sep 2018, 4:10 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Spectre of Blair hangs over a new Party......

YG

App 13%
Disapp 69%..

Not sure it will have much effect....I imagine it will attract as many Tories who think this Govt stinks as people who think Labour is unelectable..

Work with mainly Tories and they seem open to a Centrist alternative a few of them anyway..

Problem with a Centrist Party is the people discussing it think Brexit is a bigger issue than it is with voters..

It isn't the main driver...They will need policies..

We will see what happens with the Lib Dem leadership...Maybe Labour will defect there..

That would the absolute worst thing for a new centrist party wouldn't it? Blair is so toxic, his entourage should really wear hazmat suits. Someone like me would automatically (probably, if policies make any sense) gravitate to a new centrist party, but no way on Earth I'd do so with that crim involved.

by Luke Sun 09 Sep 2018, 5:33 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Spectre of Blair hangs over a new Party......

YG

App 13%
Disapp 69%..

Not sure it will have much effect....I imagine it will attract as many Tories who think this Govt stinks as people who think Labour is unelectable..

Work with mainly Tories and they seem open to a Centrist alternative a few of them anyway..

Problem with a Centrist Party is the people discussing it think Brexit is a bigger issue than it is with voters..

It isn't the main driver...They will need policies..

We will see what happens with the Lib Dem leadership...Maybe Labour will defect there..

That would the absolute worst thing for a new centrist party wouldn't it? Blair is so toxic, his entourage should really wear hazmat suits. Someone like me would automatically (probably, if policies make any sense) gravitate to a new centrist party, but no way on Earth I'd do so with that crim involved.

I'm of the same view.
A centralised party with decent policies, would in my opinion attract labour and tory voters. Not only disinfected with there own parties. But because a lot of voters are centralised with a slight lean left or right.
But to associate Blair or his cronies or Cameron and cronies. And it would sink the party because of there previous. It needs to be a fresh party completely.
Wonder how many tories my would join as well?

by MrInvisible Mon 10 Sep 2018, 1:54 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-45472189

The sort of news story that often falls under the radar, but this is an example of the downright fraud far more commonplace in school Academies and Free schools than the government would like to acknowledge. I fully recommend reading Private Eye which covers the numerous dodgy dealings, pay-offs, waste, fraud and corruption going on with Academies and Free Schools. Acadamies and Free Schools are not subject to the same level of accountability as local authority schools are.

Linking this back to the discussion above about a centrist party, whether or not to allow Academies is an issue which divides Corbyn and supporters in the party and the Blairite (aka 'moderate') wing of the party - the latter are v supportive of academies (introduced under New Labour) whilst Corbyn is fiercely opposed.

by lostinwales Mon 10 Sep 2018, 5:48 pm

MrInvisible wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-45472189

The sort of news story that often falls under the radar, but this is an example of the downright fraud far more commonplace in school Academies and Free schools than the government would like to acknowledge. I fully recommend reading Private Eye which covers the numerous dodgy dealings, pay-offs, waste, fraud and corruption going on with Academies and Free Schools. Acadamies and Free Schools are not subject to the same level of accountability as local authority schools are.

Linking this back to the discussion above about a centrist party, whether or not to allow Academies is an issue which divides Corbyn and supporters in the party and the Blairite (aka 'moderate') wing of the party - the latter are v supportive of academies (introduced under New Labour) whilst Corbyn is fiercely opposed.

It's like PFI

Good ideas handled badly are a bad thing. So so ideas handled well can be a good thing. It is not one size fits all.

The whole Blair thing is difficult. He did a hell of a lot and life was a lot better when he was in power, but of course there were mistakes along the way. Since then it has suited both the Tories and the left wing of Labour to demonise him, and broadly it has worked.

by Luke Tue 11 Sep 2018, 4:41 am

He did some good (minimum wage for example). But I personally just never trusted him.

Other than the Iraq war, his problems came after. His spell in the middle east was an absolute disaster. And showed him up (especially who he was friends with). And yet his continuing defending everything he did makes him look an idiot.
A lot of the problems that we are now facing could be laid at his door.

by MrInvisible Tue 11 Sep 2018, 12:45 pm

@lostinwales, PFI is another disaster, started by John Major/Ken Clarke, but enthusiastically adopted by Blair/Brown - it looked good at the time keeping costs of new schools and hospitals off the public sector borrowing requirement but merely stored up lots of problems for the future (witness the debt that individual hospitals and schools have been saddled with subsequently), and is fatally flawed. The biggest stupidity with PFI is that the private companies end up borrowing the money from the banks, yet always they are given less favourable rates than the public sector in borrowing money (as banks see private companies as riskier to lend to than public organisations - with reason if you look at what has been happening to the likes of Carillion). The extra cost incurred by less favourable interest rates is eventually passed onto the public sector, so PFI is a very costly way of getting things done.

The Academies and Free Schools programme is littered with examples of waste, fraud and downright corruption, which is leading to drastic cuts for schools across the board, but other than that story I pointed out there's v little mainstream coverage (compare and contrast with the acres of newsprint talking about the overblown 'anti-semitism' scandal). Meanwhile, whilst Academies and Free Schools are getting nowhere near enough scrutiny, the education cuts are starting to bite and were one of the reasons why the Tories lost a few seats during last general election - education funding is a bread and butter issue which the government continue to ignore at their peril whilst they are fixated on Brexit.

On New Labour, they did of course transform spending on education and health, reversing decades of underinvestment, and there were tangible improvements to show for it, but looking back in hindsight they did very little on housing and they took their heartlands for granted. It is easy to forget though how popular Blair was in his pre-Iraq days. As for Brown I thought he was overrated as chancellor (PFI and not enough banking regulation in run-up to the 2007/8 banking crisis) and underrated as Prime Minister (when the banking crisis came he acted firmly and decisively and together with Darling left the economy in a pretty decent state in 2010).

I believe that other than Iraq which became unpopular for voters across the political spectrum, the issue the right-wing have with Blair is on immigration - the Blair years coincided with large increases in immigration to the UK. But, those were different times, when the economy was doing well and a number of skills shortages in various sectors filled by immigrants.

On Corbyn, despite the media coverage, the vast majority of his policies are pretty sensible left-of-centre solutions which have been missing from mainstream British politics for far too long, and looking at his voting record as a backbencher he called it right just about every time he rebelled against his party. For me, as a Remainer the Achilles Heel is Brexit, and I did cringe on day after the referendum when Corbyn called for Article 50 to be triggered - however, over time Labour have shifted to a more nuanced common-sense position, and it will be interesting to see how Corbyn and McDonnell react to the TUC calling for a 2nd referendum.

by lostinwales Tue 11 Sep 2018, 12:58 pm

MrInvisible wrote:@lostinwales, PFI is another disaster, started by John Major/Ken Clarke, but enthusiastically adopted by Blair/Brown - it looked good at the time keeping costs of new schools and hospitals off the public sector borrowing requirement but merely stored up lots of problems for the future (witness the debt that individual hospitals and schools have been saddled with subsequently), and is fatally flawed. The biggest stupidity with PFI is that the private companies end up borrowing the money from the banks, yet always they are given less favourable rates than the public sector in borrowing money (as banks see private companies as riskier to lend to than public organisations - with reason if you look at what has been happening to the likes of Carillion). The extra cost incurred by less favourable interest rates is eventually passed onto the public sector, so PFI is a very costly way of getting things done.

The Academies and Free Schools programme is littered with examples of waste, fraud and downright corruption, which is leading to drastic cuts for schools across the board, but other than that story I pointed out there's v little mainstream coverage (compare and contrast with the acres of newsprint talking about the overblown 'anti-semitism' scandal). Meanwhile, whilst Academies and Free Schools are getting nowhere near enough scrutiny, the education cuts are starting to bite and were one of the reasons why the Tories lost a few seats during last general election - education funding is a bread and butter issue which the government continue to ignore at their peril whilst they are fixated on Brexit.

On New Labour, they did of course transform spending on education and health, reversing decades of underinvestment, and there were tangible improvements to show for it, but looking back in hindsight they did very little on housing and they took their heartlands for granted. It is easy to forget though how popular Blair was in his pre-Iraq days. As for Brown I thought he was overrated as chancellor (PFI and not enough banking regulation in run-up to the 2007/8 banking crisis) and underrated as Prime Minister (when the banking crisis came he acted firmly and decisively and together with Darling left the economy in a pretty decent state in 2010).

I believe that other than Iraq which became unpopular for voters across the political spectrum, the issue the right-wing have with Blair is on immigration - the Blair years coincided with large increases in immigration to the UK. But, those were different times, when the economy was doing well and a number of skills shortages in various sectors filled by immigrants.

On Corbyn, despite the media coverage, the vast majority of his policies are pretty sensible left-of-centre solutions which have been missing from mainstream British politics for far too long, and looking at his voting record as a backbencher he called it right just about every time he rebelled against his party. For me, as a Remainer the Achilles Heel is Brexit, and I did cringe on day after the referendum when Corbyn called for Article 50 to be triggered - however, over time Labour have shifted to a more nuanced common-sense position, and it will be interesting to see how Corbyn and McDonnell react to the TUC calling for a 2nd referendum.

All 428 times? Anyway its all too easy to be 'on the right side of history' if you are on the protesting side rather than the one that actually has to prove their plans.

I do think we need people like JC in politics, it would be boring without them. But he's a limited guy and doesn't belong anywhere near power.

by Samo Tue 11 Sep 2018, 7:29 pm

lostinwales wrote:
MrInvisible wrote:@lostinwales, PFI is another disaster, started by John Major/Ken Clarke, but enthusiastically adopted by Blair/Brown - it looked good at the time keeping costs of new schools and hospitals off the public sector borrowing requirement but merely stored up lots of problems for the future (witness the debt that individual hospitals and schools have been saddled with subsequently), and is fatally flawed. The biggest stupidity with PFI is that the private companies end up borrowing the money from the banks, yet always they are given less favourable rates than the public sector in borrowing money (as banks see private companies as riskier to lend to than public organisations - with reason if you look at what has been happening to the likes of Carillion). The extra cost incurred by less favourable interest rates is eventually passed onto the public sector, so PFI is a very costly way of getting things done.

The Academies and Free Schools programme is littered with examples of waste, fraud and downright corruption, which is leading to drastic cuts for schools across the board, but other than that story I pointed out there's v little mainstream coverage (compare and contrast with the acres of newsprint talking about the overblown 'anti-semitism' scandal). Meanwhile, whilst Academies and Free Schools are getting nowhere near enough scrutiny, the education cuts are starting to bite and were one of the reasons why the Tories lost a few seats during last general election - education funding is a bread and butter issue which the government continue to ignore at their peril whilst they are fixated on Brexit.

On New Labour, they did of course transform spending on education and health, reversing decades of underinvestment, and there were tangible improvements to show for it, but looking back in hindsight they did very little on housing and they took their heartlands for granted. It is easy to forget though how popular Blair was in his pre-Iraq days. As for Brown I thought he was overrated as chancellor (PFI and not enough banking regulation in run-up to the 2007/8 banking crisis) and underrated as Prime Minister (when the banking crisis came he acted firmly and decisively and together with Darling left the economy in a pretty decent state in 2010).

I believe that other than Iraq which became unpopular for voters across the political spectrum, the issue the right-wing have with Blair is on immigration - the Blair years coincided with large increases in immigration to the UK. But, those were different times, when the economy was doing well and a number of skills shortages in various sectors filled by immigrants.

On Corbyn, despite the media coverage, the vast majority of his policies are pretty sensible left-of-centre solutions which have been missing from mainstream British politics for far too long, and looking at his voting record as a backbencher he called it right just about every time he rebelled against his party. For me, as a Remainer the Achilles Heel is Brexit, and I did cringe on day after the referendum when Corbyn called for Article 50 to be triggered - however, over time Labour have shifted to a more nuanced common-sense position, and it will be interesting to see how Corbyn and McDonnell react to the TUC calling for a 2nd referendum.

All 428 times? Anyway its all too easy to be 'on the right side of history' if you are on the protesting side rather than the one that actually has to prove their plans.

I do think we need people like JC in politics, it would be boring without them. But he's a limited guy and doesn't belong anywhere near power.

The more I've seen of Corbyn recently leads me to the same conclusion. He's not the man the lead a socialist government, but he will almost certainly be the catalyst. Any leader worth their salt would be ripping the Tories to bits on the regular.

It does speak volumes that there does appear to be a media agenda against him, but he doesnt handle it well, the wreath fiasco being the latest.

by CaledonianCraig Tue 11 Sep 2018, 7:43 pm

Samo wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
MrInvisible wrote:@lostinwales, PFI is another disaster, started by John Major/Ken Clarke, but enthusiastically adopted by Blair/Brown - it looked good at the time keeping costs of new schools and hospitals off the public sector borrowing requirement but merely stored up lots of problems for the future (witness the debt that individual hospitals and schools have been saddled with subsequently), and is fatally flawed. The biggest stupidity with PFI is that the private companies end up borrowing the money from the banks, yet always they are given less favourable rates than the public sector in borrowing money (as banks see private companies as riskier to lend to than public organisations - with reason if you look at what has been happening to the likes of Carillion). The extra cost incurred by less favourable interest rates is eventually passed onto the public sector, so PFI is a very costly way of getting things done.

The Academies and Free Schools programme is littered with examples of waste, fraud and downright corruption, which is leading to drastic cuts for schools across the board, but other than that story I pointed out there's v little mainstream coverage (compare and contrast with the acres of newsprint talking about the overblown 'anti-semitism' scandal). Meanwhile, whilst Academies and Free Schools are getting nowhere near enough scrutiny, the education cuts are starting to bite and were one of the reasons why the Tories lost a few seats during last general election - education funding is a bread and butter issue which the government continue to ignore at their peril whilst they are fixated on Brexit.

On New Labour, they did of course transform spending on education and health, reversing decades of underinvestment, and there were tangible improvements to show for it, but looking back in hindsight they did very little on housing and they took their heartlands for granted. It is easy to forget though how popular Blair was in his pre-Iraq days. As for Brown I thought he was overrated as chancellor (PFI and not enough banking regulation in run-up to the 2007/8 banking crisis) and underrated as Prime Minister (when the banking crisis came he acted firmly and decisively and together with Darling left the economy in a pretty decent state in 2010).

I believe that other than Iraq which became unpopular for voters across the political spectrum, the issue the right-wing have with Blair is on immigration - the Blair years coincided with large increases in immigration to the UK. But, those were different times, when the economy was doing well and a number of skills shortages in various sectors filled by immigrants.

On Corbyn, despite the media coverage, the vast majority of his policies are pretty sensible left-of-centre solutions which have been missing from mainstream British politics for far too long, and looking at his voting record as a backbencher he called it right just about every time he rebelled against his party. For me, as a Remainer the Achilles Heel is Brexit, and I did cringe on day after the referendum when Corbyn called for Article 50 to be triggered - however, over time Labour have shifted to a more nuanced common-sense position, and it will be interesting to see how Corbyn and McDonnell react to the TUC calling for a 2nd referendum.

All 428 times? Anyway its all too easy to be 'on the right side of history' if you are on the protesting side rather than the one that actually has to prove their plans.

I do think we need people like JC in politics, it would be boring without them. But he's a limited guy and doesn't belong anywhere near power.

The more I've seen of Corbyn recently leads me to the same conclusion. He's not the man the lead a socialist government, but he will almost certainly be the catalyst. Any leader worth their salt would be ripping the Tories to bits on the regular.

It does speak volumes that there does appear to be a media agenda against him, but he doesnt handle it well, the wreath fiasco being the latest.

Totally agree. He was left a glaring open goal over Project Windrush fiasco, the Grenfell Disaster and obviously the Brexit negotiations fiasco and he has done Jack. He wheels out fictional people claiming they have emailed him instead of coming right out saying what HE thinks. He hasn't even laid a glove (using a boxing analogy) on the disastrous Tories. What am embarrassing opposition to have.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 11 Sep 2018, 7:45 pm

To say he doesn't handle it well would mean you would need someone to compare him to...and there is no comparison.

I have been here since 1989 and I have never seen anybody take the abuse this guy does...I think it's disgusting..

Racist....Commie spy...Anti Semite...

Still he has 540,000 members and still he is favourite to be the next PM despite being the most left wing leader in modern times..A feat in itself..

Doubtless a Blairite who Wouldn't change the Status Quo would do better....

But Labour are going for the jackpot and I think it is 50/50 they will hit it..

by Sponsored content