The Shocking standard of the Pro14

First topic message reminder :

Having been watching it since it was the original Celtic league and looking at comments about it online in all those years it's fair to say it's the most controversial competition in world rugby. There are always problems popping up that it could do without. No exaggeration to say it has a way to go yet.


What I've noticed in the last few years is the standard of play. It has dramatically improved!!!


Starting off with Glasgow's rise to win the competition. Then we had Connacht coming from nowhere to win it. Then the Scarlets won it in style. Those teams won by playing attractive running rugby.


Then last year Leinster won again after they've become one of the best non international teams in the world. Also last year we had Benetton and Zebre getting their act together and become hard teams to beat, especially Benetton. Edinburgh have become a tough team to beat too, much improved from previous years.


The South Africans are weak but they've added something exotic to the league. Cheetahs do look weaker than last season (too early to judge) but Kings look improved so far. After 2 poor seasons the buzz is back in Connacht and Cardiff are showing good signs.


So all in all the standard has improved greatly. That's putting the pressure on other traditionally strong sides like Munster, Ospreys and Ulster, which is no harm.


The league isn't without problems which are constantly highlighted so I though I'd take a look at the big picture for a change.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Where does this logic that a child is going to say his parent(s) “I want to watch Kyle Evans” tonight come from? They’re always going to still be aware of George North etc.

The pro teams must’ve stopped community engagements and guard of honours. Kids are never going to know they exist now.

That's the BBC propaganda machine for you, without it no one knows nahim!

Whatever the clubs are doing currently in the community and local media, you can usually bet they can always do more.

Here in Ulster there is an official radio partner, this season it's Cool FM the biggest commercial radio station in the province. So you get players on being interviewed on the breakfast show as the kids are on their way to school. There are a number of podcasts about too, I mentioned Ulster Rugby Roundup that is run by the Belfast Telegraph. It can be a decent listen and it covers the women, underage and club game too

Do you get anything like that for the regions? If not is there a gap in the market for some members of 606 to exploit?

It's alot easier when you only have 1 pro team to market -  in your country of nearly 2 million people.

You obviously have no clue about NI, it's culture and history then

In RoI you have shows like On The Ball that cover the provinces extensively, some more than others, it happens though so it's not impossible to do. It's not like it's not in the interests of the Regions to work together to establish a joint media approach for these things or that BBC Wales cover the Pro14 games or anything and could be used s a platform

I'd be surprised if BBC consider a programme solely about the 4 welsh pro sides when they've just lost coverage of them.

BBC Wales has always been about the national side first, then domestic rugby if they feel like it. You only have to look at the way BBC Wales reported James Davies' injury yesterday to see that. "Davies to miss Wales Autumn Internationals" etc. 4 friendlies. No mention of the 12 games he'll miss for the Scarlets

Has the European Competitions died in Wales yet.  They have been off free to air entirely for years.  It must have come as a shock to people when Blues won it as it wasn't on FTA. Wait do people in Ponty even know their region won.

If you can't as an u40 find enough information on-line you need help.  What kids are we honestly saying get their information only from the BBC.  YouTube gives you all the games and highlight you need

RugbyFan100 wrote:I'd be surprised if BBC consider a programme solely about the 4 welsh pro sides when they've just lost coverage of them.

BBC Wales has always been about the national side first, then domestic rugby if they feel like it. You only have to look at the way BBC Wales reported James Davies' injury yesterday to see that. "Davies to miss Wales Autumn Internationals" etc. 4 friendlies. No mention of the 12 games he'll miss for the Scarlets

That's how most report such things, I wasn't talking about one single program about the Regions though. I was talking about greater visibility and engagement, no reason you shouldn't get the odd player from the regions appearing on different BBC Wales programs when it's in their interests to boost the audience for the games

If rugby is growing in Ireland, Scotland and Italy, why not Wales?


The pro14 can't magically solve every countries problems. They can however use it as a tool, a springboard to grow the game. If the Welsh are not doing that it's their problem and theyve obviously some internal issues only they can fix.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

TJ wrote:You'd be better off comparing how many of the Pro 14 teams regularly make the knockout stages of Europe's premier competition. That's a better marker of standard

On that standard surely the pro 14 is doing well.  did they not have more tyeams in the knockout stage than either England or France last year?

But it's the same teams making the semi finals and finals all the time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you look at the last 10 years of European Champions Cup rugby, I'm pretty sure you'll find a greater spread of teams in the English and French leagues making the semis and finals than from the pro14.

Last 5 seasons of knockouts:

Pro14:
Leinster, Munster, Scarlets, Glasgow

Top 14:
Racing, La Rochelle, Toulon, Clermont, Toulouse, Stade Francais, Montpellier

Gallagher Prem:
Saracens, Wasps, Exeter, Leicester, Northampton, Bath

Just my opinion but it shows a more varied, stronger league in France and England.

Yet over the last seven years in the knockout stages there have been seven from the Pro14, seven from the GP and seven from the T14 - that looks like a very even spread. The Pro14 representatives consist of 3 Irish, 2 Welsh and 2 Scottish which is indicative of a varied strong league.

Ah well. If you think the Pro14 has more stronger teams throughout, than the Top1 4 or English Prem, then good luck to you.

Weren't 3 of the 5 Challenge Cup groups last season topped by Pro14 teams?

marty2086 wrote:Weren't 3 of the 5 Challenge Cup groups last season topped by Pro14 teams?

But the other teams were trying according to some

The league is going from strenght to strenght. Since I have been following we have come along way

1. League wasn't the bread and butter - Ospreys have a good run in euro but don't qualify for Europe. Placing in the league now has a big effect on Europe so teams are focusing on league. Teams Like Connacht and Glasgow winning the league yet struggle to an extent that year in Europe.
2. No money - have sponsorship, have TV deals, bring back and keeping more big players, growing attendance
3. Bottom teams are rubbish. 4 round in and everyone has gone a game undefeated
4. Poor standard - now seen as the best league in Europe for bring through good talent and running rugby, league standards highlighted as the reason teams are better at the breakdown in Europe and at international level.

There are many more

profitius wrote:If rugby is growing in Ireland, Scotland and Italy, why not Wales?


The pro14 can't magically solve every countries problems. They can however use it as a tool, a springboard to grow the game. If the Welsh are not doing that it's their problem and theyve obviously some internal issues only they can fix.

Rugby isn't the problem, it's the competitions. There are far too many teams in Wales, and far to few people. I am not worried about rugby, as a sport, I am worried about the exposure the professional game is now getting.

LordDowlais wrote: I am worried about the exposure the professional game is now getting.

There will always be 6 nations and world cups to get people's attention. How many 11 year old kids were really watching Zebre v Dragons on a Friday night anyway?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: I am worried about the exposure the professional game is now getting.

There will always be 6 nations and world cups to get people's attention. How many 11 year old kids were really watching Zebre v Dragons on a Friday night anyway?

A lot less now it's on Premier Sports.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: I am worried about the exposure the professional game is now getting.

There will always be 6 nations and world cups to get people's attention. How many 11 year old kids were really watching Zebre v Dragons on a Friday night anyway?

A lot less now it's on Premier Sports.

It was on s4c the other day, and you could therefore watch it for free. Without a 'fancy' set top box. Just a black and white TV with a coat hanger stuck in the top would do.

I recorded it and watched it back with my kids on Sunday. I exposed the cr*p out of them! Although my son was more interested in his trains

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: I am worried about the exposure the professional game is now getting.

There will always be 6 nations and world cups to get people's attention. How many 11 year old kids were really watching Zebre v Dragons on a Friday night anyway?

A lot less now it's on Premier Sports.

Nice to know your so in tune with the viewing habits of 11 year old

LordDowlais wrote:

profitius wrote:If rugby is growing in Ireland, Scotland and Italy, why not Wales?


The pro14 can't magically solve every countries problems. They can however use it as a tool, a springboard to grow the game. If the Welsh are not doing that it's their problem and theyve obviously some internal issues only they can fix.

Rugby isn't the problem, it's the competitions. There are far too many teams in Wales, and far to few people. I am not worried about rugby, as a sport, I am worried about the exposure the professional game is now getting.

The European competitions are going to be on Channel 4, Pro14 is still on S4C, 6Ns will be on BBC and ITV, RWC will be on ITV, AIs will be on BBC

I think the professional game is getting plenty of exposure

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

profitius wrote:If rugby is growing in Ireland, Scotland and Italy, why not Wales?


The pro14 can't magically solve every countries problems. They can however use it as a tool, a springboard to grow the game. If the Welsh are not doing that it's their problem and theyve obviously some internal issues only they can fix.

Rugby isn't the problem, it's the competitions. There are far too many teams in Wales, and far to few people. I am not worried about rugby, as a sport, I am worried about the exposure the professional game is now getting.

The European competitions are going to be on Channel 4, Pro14 is still on S4C, 6Ns will be on BBC and ITV, RWC will be on ITV, AIs will be on BBC

I think the professional game is getting plenty of exposure

I'm not arguing with that. Why you are keeping on about other competitions I do not know. I am talking about the Pro14.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

profitius wrote:If rugby is growing in Ireland, Scotland and Italy, why not Wales?


The pro14 can't magically solve every countries problems. They can however use it as a tool, a springboard to grow the game. If the Welsh are not doing that it's their problem and theyve obviously some internal issues only they can fix.

Rugby isn't the problem, it's the competitions. There are far too many teams in Wales, and far to few people. I am not worried about rugby, as a sport, I am worried about the exposure the professional game is now getting.

The European competitions are going to be on Channel 4, Pro14 is still on S4C, 6Ns will be on BBC and ITV, RWC will be on ITV, AIs will be on BBC

I think the professional game is getting plenty of exposure

I'm not arguing with that. Why you are keeping on about other competitions I do not know. I am talking about the Pro14.

Except your concern was

about the exposure the professional game is now getting.

They all make up the professional game, hence my reference to them

If there are two many teams in Wales I would say the Pro14 has the least number of Welsh teams after internationals so is the second smallest problem.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

profitius wrote:If rugby is growing in Ireland, Scotland and Italy, why not Wales?


The pro14 can't magically solve every countries problems. They can however use it as a tool, a springboard to grow the game. If the Welsh are not doing that it's their problem and theyve obviously some internal issues only they can fix.

Rugby isn't the problem, it's the competitions. There are far too many teams in Wales, and far to few people. I am not worried about rugby, as a sport, I am worried about the exposure the professional game is now getting.

The European competitions are going to be on Channel 4, Pro14 is still on S4C, 6Ns will be on BBC and ITV, RWC will be on ITV, AIs will be on BBC

I think the professional game is getting plenty of exposure

I'm not arguing with that. Why you are keeping on about other competitions I do not know. I am talking about the Pro14.

Except your concern was

about the exposure the professional game is now getting.

They all make up the professional game, hence my reference to them

Well I am sorry if I confused you.

Here in Wales, BBC Wales were always advertising Friday night games. So, if you were watching BBC Wales, for what ever reason, at some point you would come across an advert a few minuets long, with some Pro14 montage and the game on Scrum V on Friday night, that was every day, most of the time.

Everybody would know about it, everybody was ready for it, it was exposing the league. Whether you watched it or not was up to you, but you would know about it. It is now out of the public eye. nobody knows about it, unless you look for it. For me it's a worry.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

profitius wrote:If rugby is growing in Ireland, Scotland and Italy, why not Wales?


The pro14 can't magically solve every countries problems. They can however use it as a tool, a springboard to grow the game. If the Welsh are not doing that it's their problem and theyve obviously some internal issues only they can fix.

Rugby isn't the problem, it's the competitions. There are far too many teams in Wales, and far to few people. I am not worried about rugby, as a sport, I am worried about the exposure the professional game is now getting.

The European competitions are going to be on Channel 4, Pro14 is still on S4C, 6Ns will be on BBC and ITV, RWC will be on ITV, AIs will be on BBC

I think the professional game is getting plenty of exposure

I'm not arguing with that. Why you are keeping on about other competitions I do not know. I am talking about the Pro14.

Except your concern was

about the exposure the professional game is now getting.

They all make up the professional game, hence my reference to them

Well I am sorry if I confused you.

Here in Wales, BBC Wales were always advertising Friday night games. So, if you were watching BBC Wales, for what ever reason, at some point you would come across an advert a few minuets long, with some Pro14 montage and the game on Scrum V on Friday night, that was every day, most of the time.

Everybody would know about it, everybody was ready for it, it was exposing the league. Whether you watched it or not was up to you, but you would know about it. It is now out of the public eye. nobody knows about it, unless you look for it. For me it's a worry.

Except for the papers, the ads on buses, games on BBC radio, ads on radio, social media, talk down the pub and so on and so on

More than one way to skin a cat

OK.

LordDowlais wrote:Here in Wales, BBC Wales were always advertising Friday night games. So, if you were watching BBC Wales, for what ever reason, at some point you would come across an advert a few minuets long, with some Pro14 montage and the game on Scrum V on Friday night, that was every day, most of the time.

Everybody would know about it, everybody was ready for it, it was exposing the league. Whether you watched it or not was up to you, but you would know about it. It is now out of the public eye. nobody knows about it, unless you look for it. For me it's a worry.

I have a few issues with this.

First of all, BBC Wales didn't do as great a job of advertising the league as you make out. There were several occasions where they'd list the weekend fixtures on Friday's Wales Today sports bit, but not bother to mention that there was live coverage of one of those matches over on BBC Two later that evening. It was really quite something. Why wouldn't you want the viewers to know, when you're the broadcaster?

Secondly, they do still mention the games on BBC Wales, of course they do. They're not leaving it out of their sports bulletins out of spite. Saying 'It is now out of the public eye, nobody knows about it' is clearly untrue.

Finally, I'd like to think that most people have other sources of information about the world around them than BBC Wales.

Agree the standard has been really good this season. A good few of the pro14 sides should do well in Europe.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Here in Wales, BBC Wales were always advertising Friday night games. So, if you were watching BBC Wales, for what ever reason, at some point you would come across an advert a few minuets long, with some Pro14 montage and the game on Scrum V on Friday night, that was every day, most of the time.

Everybody would know about it, everybody was ready for it, it was exposing the league. Whether you watched it or not was up to you, but you would know about it. It is now out of the public eye. nobody knows about it, unless you look for it. For me it's a worry.

I have a few issues with this.

First of all, BBC Wales didn't do as great a job of advertising the league as you make out. There were several occasions where they'd list the weekend fixtures on Friday's Wales Today sports bit, but not bother to mention that there was live coverage of one of those matches over on BBC Two later that evening. It was really quite something. Why wouldn't you want the viewers to know, when you're the broadcaster?

Secondly, they do still mention the games on BBC Wales, of course they do. They're not leaving it out of their sports bulletins out of spite. Saying 'It is now out of the public eye, nobody knows about it' is clearly untrue.

Finally, I'd like to think that most people have other sources of information about the world around them than BBC Wales.

We can take the favourite source of information, as proof as to why the Premiership won’t steal a march on the Pro 14 in Wales, if people like.

I had a look at the rugby page of Wales Online today and was surprised to see the Pro Teams listed above the Premiership and not one match report from a Premiership game this season either.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-match-reports/

Scrum V was/is an awful and dated show. There’s no way they constantly went to town on the advertising, when they couldn’t even be bothered giving more than five minutes analysis on their pre match coverage.

rodders wrote:Agree the standard has been really good this season. A good few of the pro14 sides should do well in Europe.

Watch out for the Kings now they got CJ Velleman back from a long term injury. I have seen him described as the best fetcher in SA, even better than Cloete.

The Cheetahs are struggling but i read they are going to sign 5-8 players when the Currie Cup end.

I think we could be in for the best season in the pro14 yet.

The bit in the OP about Ulster being a ‘traditionally strong side’ in this league seems a bit far-fetched. They’re won it once, over a decade ago.

Not all strong sides win things though, Cyril. I suppose that's why they get called Leagues.

Cyril wrote:The bit in the OP about Ulster being a ‘traditionally strong side’ in this league seems a bit far-fetched. They’re won it once, over a decade ago.

That was before they implemented playoffs.

The league really started to get serious in around 2009/2010 with knockout rugby.

The points stands surely? The top sides are Leinster, Ospreys and Munster. You always get the odd year when the Irish can rest their players and the age of the Ospreys Galacatios is over. Unless by ‘traditional’ you mean way, way back. Ulster, have not been a strong side except for the odd year and have never been in the same standing as the top Celtic sides.

The padding of the weak Italians and the, frankly, average SA sides means you now have a soft bottom middle whereby the top side(s) (ahem, Leinster) can win and concentrate on Europe. Good for the IRFU/Leinster project. Go Blue Irish

Cyril wrote:The padding of the weak Italians and the, frankly, average SA sides means you now have a soft bottom middle whereby the top side(s) (ahem, Leinster) can win and concentrate on Europe. Good for the IRFU/Leinster project. Go Blue Irish

Leinster, Ospreys and Munster are the top teams?

This is 2018, not 2008.

Look above. ‘Traditionally’ the top sides. Not my words.

Cyril wrote:Look above. ‘Traditionally’ the top sides. Not my words.

“The top sides are Leinster, Ospreys and Munster.”

Your precise words.

Top sides now are, um Leinster. Other sides like Scarlets and Connaught get a title when Leinster are a bit stretched in Europe and have to play 2nd strings all through the Irish league.

I guess you’re a Leinster fan, eh? Man Utd too (not so good right now,sorry). Brazil, no? emack has a place on the bandwagon x

Last 10 seasons positions in regular season out of 17 total

Leinster 1, Munster 2, Glasgow 3, Ospreys/Ulster/Scarlets 4/5

Leinster 3, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 5, 1, 2, 2 = 20 avg 2nd W 2013, 2014, 2018
Munster 1, 4, 1, 3, 6, 3, 2, 6, 1, 4 = 31 avg 3rd W 2009, 2011
Glasgow 7, 3, 11, 4, 3, 2, 1, 2, 6, 1 = 40 avg 4th W 2015
Ospreys - 4, 2, 4, 2, 5, 5, 3, 8, 4, 10 = 47 avg 4th/5th - W 2010, 2012
Ulster 8, 8, 3, 6, 1, 4, 4, 4, 5, 7 = 50 avg 5th
Scarlets 5, 9, 5, 5, 4, 6, 6, 5, 3, 3 = 51 avg 5th W 2017

Last 5 seasons positions

Leinster = 11 2nd
Glasgow = 12 2nd
Munster = 16 3rd
Scarlets = 23 4th
Ulster = 24 4th/5th
Ospreys = 30 6th

Cyril wrote:I guess you’re a Leinster fan, eh? Man Utd too (not so good right now,sorry). Brazil, no? emack has a place on the bandwagon x

I’ve no interest in soccer - sorry.

Those stats show Ulster as averaging around a mid-table finish. Which is what I was saying. Thanks for doing the maths though

profitius wrote:So all in all the standard has improved greatly. That's putting the pressure on other traditionally strong sides like Munster, Ospreys and Ulster, which is no harm.


The league isn't without problems which are constantly highlighted so I though I'd take a look at the big picture for a change.

Good post profitius.

The degree of success is reflected by the level of jealous criticism and if this thread is any indication - the Pro14 is flying.

Any competition that has fans unable to take any sort of comment or criticism without flying into a precious rage has problems. Reading comments on the Pro14 it appears you get hounded off the forum if you post anything other than fawning adoration.

Cyril wrote:The points stands surely? The top sides are Leinster, Ospreys and Munster. You always get the odd year when the Irish can rest their players and the age of the Ospreys Galacatios is over. Unless by ‘traditional’ you mean way, way back. Ulster, have not been a strong side except for the odd year and have never been in the same standing as the top Celtic sides.

Ospreys!

In other news Leicester Tigers are the still top dog in the English Premiership.

The part I was replying to was ‘traditionally strong’. Ospreys beat Leinster at the business end quite regularly back in the day.

And Newport beat the All Blacks back in the day too!

Cyril wrote: Reading comments on the Pro14 it appears you get hounded off the forum if you post anything other than fawning adoration.

Pretty much

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Cyril wrote: Reading comments on the Pro14 it appears you get hounded off the forum if you post anything other than fawning adoration.

Pretty much

Didn't you post an article that failed to hold up to published fact? Not to mention complaints about eirSports getting the rights to games hosted in Ireland?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Here in Wales, BBC Wales were always advertising Friday night games. So, if you were watching BBC Wales, for what ever reason, at some point you would come across an advert a few minuets long, with some Pro14 montage and the game on Scrum V on Friday night, that was every day, most of the time.

Everybody would know about it, everybody was ready for it, it was exposing the league. Whether you watched it or not was up to you, but you would know about it. It is now out of the public eye. nobody knows about it, unless you look for it. For me it's a worry.

I have a few issues with this.

First of all, BBC Wales didn't do as great a job of advertising the league as you make out. There were several occasions where they'd list the weekend fixtures on Friday's Wales Today sports bit, but not bother to mention that there was live coverage of one of those matches over on BBC Two later that evening. It was really quite something. Why wouldn't you want the viewers to know, when you're the broadcaster?

Secondly, they do still mention the games on BBC Wales, of course they do. They're not leaving it out of their sports bulletins out of spite. Saying 'It is now out of the public eye, nobody knows about it' is clearly untrue.

Finally, I'd like to think that most people have other sources of information about the world around them than BBC Wales.

I'm sorry, I know you have a right to your opinion, and I respect that, but I do do not agree with any of what you said, not one jot.

I think you are just disagreeing, for disagreeing sake.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Here in Wales, BBC Wales were always advertising Friday night games. So, if you were watching BBC Wales, for what ever reason, at some point you would come across an advert a few minuets long, with some Pro14 montage and the game on Scrum V on Friday night, that was every day, most of the time.

Everybody would know about it, everybody was ready for it, it was exposing the league. Whether you watched it or not was up to you, but you would know about it. It is now out of the public eye. nobody knows about it, unless you look for it. For me it's a worry.

I have a few issues with this.

First of all, BBC Wales didn't do as great a job of advertising the league as you make out. There were several occasions where they'd list the weekend fixtures on Friday's Wales Today sports bit, but not bother to mention that there was live coverage of one of those matches over on BBC Two later that evening. It was really quite something. Why wouldn't you want the viewers to know, when you're the broadcaster?

Secondly, they do still mention the games on BBC Wales, of course they do. They're not leaving it out of their sports bulletins out of spite. Saying 'It is now out of the public eye, nobody knows about it' is clearly untrue.

Finally, I'd like to think that most people have other sources of information about the world around them than BBC Wales.

I'm sorry, I know you have a right to your opinion, and I respect that, but I do do not agree with any of what you said, not one jot.

I think you are just disagreeing, for disagreeing sake.

Quite ironic that you say that given that your argument is that it's out of the public eye because you don't hear anything on the morning bulletin before you go to work, even though you have been away for a chunk of the time it would be talked about

Cyril wrote:Any competition that has fans unable to take any sort of comment or criticism without flying into a precious rage has problems. Reading comments on the Pro14 it appears you get hounded off the forum if you post anything other than fawning adoration.

This is the first time EVER I have agreed with Cyril on here. He makes a point.

marty2086 wrote:Quite ironic that you say that given that your argument is that it's out of the public eye because you don't hear anything on the morning bulletin before you go to work, even though you have been away for a chunk of the time it would be talked about

Watch a lot of BBC Wales do you ?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Quite ironic that you say that given that your argument is that it's out of the public eye because you don't hear anything on the morning bulletin before you go to work, even though you have been away for a chunk of the time it would be talked about

Watch a lot of BBC Wales do you ?

I do actually, my iPlayer was set to Wales up until a few days ago, Back in Time for the Factory is an interesting watch