Wales v England - Matchday

https://www.606v2.com/t68441-wales-v-england-thread-6-nations

The time is now!
The day is here!

LondonTiger wrote:ANY personal attacks will be a ban. No warnings.

A nice article here. Sums up my feeling.  So excited now!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47337304

“You can be in many places in London and not know there are 80,000 people at a match in Twickenham. Swerve the Gare du Nord and Paris on a Six Nations weekend can pass as Paris always does. Murrayfield is a 45-minute ramble from the centre of Edinburgh, the Aviva Stadium tucked in Dublin's well-heeled south-eastern suburbs.

Cardiff? The only way you can miss the Principality Stadium is if you are leaving town without a backward glance. You can be oblivious to the rugby only if you lock yourself away for the weekend and never once look out.

Most of Wales appears to drain into its capital on matchdays. A stadium in the guts of the city, a game still in the heart of the nation. All cities and sports have their own particular rhythms and charms but Cardiff when England come calling is like no other.

It is special because of its traditions and alive because it is not just ancient history. A rivalry that has stretched out across 138 years kicks on to this Saturday and drags two nations into its wake. Eighty minutes of rugby but a day around it that starts with big breakfasts and butterflies in the stomach and finishes only when you want it to.

Old friends, familiar routines, memories of matchdays gone before. Early trains out of Paddington, heading west with the optimistic English and day-trip diaspora, seats only if you are lucky, beers being passed round the carriage.

Traffic building on the M4, slow through the tunnel outside Newport, crawling along the A48 into town. Shorter hops from the west, 40 minutes from Neath station into Cardiff Central, an 11am sporting commute with cans in bags.

The city skyline has changed. The old brick tower of the Brains brewery by the station has gone, the grey walls of the prison dwarfed by new apartment blocks. Pile off the train and you still get taken out the long way round, back under the bridge and then up into town, stadium looming ahead of you, and the day kicks on again.

Wales v England is the conversation all week. Not the weather, or football, but a stroll around the cliches and talking points: can Gareth Anscombe control a game like Dan Biggar? Will England's kicking game be hoovered up by Liam Williams? Who will win the back-row battle?

The stadium is a magnet drawing them in from all corners. Strolling in from Roath to the north-west, scattering the last of the Saturday shoppers, coming along the Cowbridge Road from the west. A Cathedral Road pub crawl from the affluent ends of Pontcanna and Llandaff or a brisk walk across Bute Park. Maybe a few looseners down in the bay.

All paths lead to town. If you're young with a flat or house, mates stay over and mates of mates find space on the floor. If you don't have a ticket - well, most people don't. It's rugby but it's also an all-dayer and an excuse. It's why there can be queues to get into Walkabout on St Mary Street before noon and why Caroline Street will be awash shortly after.

If you want it civilised, it's pints in the Goat Major or the bar of the Holiday Inn on the corner of Castle Street. Elbow to elbow in the lobby of the Angel Hotel, where visiting teams used to stay back in the day, male voice choirs in song on the big staircase. If you want it messy you don't need to look hard.

It isn't always a fortress and there is not so much of the hatred that some remember. England have left victorious on three of their past four visits. The old narrative of little brother against big no longer carries so much weight when Wales have three Grand Slams in the past 14 years to England's one, when they have gone further in the past two World Cups, when the nation has a flourishing political and cultural self-confidence.

It isn't just about the booze but it floats along on it. The reason there is a craft IPA called Mikey Rayer is not just a tribute to the two tries the former Cardiff man scored as a replacement against Scotland in 1994 but the fact his name is local rhyming slang for an all-day session. There'll come a point later in the day when people will forget how coats work.

Much has stayed the same but much has changed too. Football is younger and cooler. Domestic rugby in Wales is a mess.

It is still a day when nothing else is planned. You don't accidentally book a wedding when Wales play England or find that you're going away. The connection between elite and community remains. You can still see internationals like Justin Tipuric coaching the juniors at his club side Trebanos on a Sunday morning, or spot hooker Ken Owens having a pint in Carmarthen.

The ones who resent rugby and the way it can preserve the old stereotypes - marching bands and Sloop John B, Max Boyce and anthropomorphic daffodils - are still defined by their opposition to it. No-one is neutral.

For the travelling English it is a day to feel like cartoon villains while also relishing being surrounded by people who share the same obsessions. There is always hope - England are chasing a record sixth consecutive Six Nations win in this fixture - and this year the confidence of thumping wins against Ireland and France.

You could argue the survivors of the 30-3 shellacking in 2013 carry the scars. But Ben Youngs and Owen Farrell have won in Cardiff since, and Manu Tuilagi is more about dishing out pain than wearing it.

Jonny May has won at the Principality, as have George Kruis, Billy Vunipola, Elliot Daly, Courtney Lawes. England have scored almost twice as many tries in the championship this year as any other team, and they are yet to meet Italy. Eddie Jones has coached England four times against Wales and won every one.

When 74,500 people have piled into the Principality by 4.45pm on Saturday, that past will matter less than the present.

You listen to the choruses of Delilah rolling down the steep stands, wonder at a song that celebrates a misogynist murder and join in anyway. You hope the bloke next to you can carry all those pints without slopping them on your shoes. You feel the heat on your face from the pitch-side flame-throwers and you know you are at the centre of the rugby universe.

Rugby's greatest championship, the sport's consummate afternoon.“

Whats happening to my posting?

I'm getting vibes that Fordyce needs a drink to take the edge of this fixture for him!

The Independent has used some analysis to predict a Wales win 20-19. So we don't need to bother with this afternoon

Can Manu mnage three games on the bounce without breaking? Surely now that he has announced he is off to Racing he will start to fall apart?
Wales have been lucky (France imploded) and pants (italy were just even more pants) but now is the time Kato, now is the time.
Should be a cracker.

Manu's move has yet to be announced formally, and is not a given. Based on the money reportedly on the table, he could actually be less well of by moving as combined Leicester and England money is not too far below the Racing offer, while if he wants to play in the world cup his contract overseas could not start until end of November, leaving g him for 5 months with no club income.

When the 6Ns started, Ireland and Wales were ranked 2 & 3 in the world. Should England win today, that would be a massive achievement to beat both way from home.

sensisball wrote:Can Manu mnage three games on the bounce without breaking? Surely now that he has announced he is off to Racing he will start to fall apart?
Wales have been lucky (France imploded) and pants (italy were just even more pants) but now is the time Kato, now is the time.
Should be a cracker.

Yes. It looks as if he's finally fixed, despite the effort of that French prop.

What is a big factor is that he's not being used all the time. Same with Billy. Having more heavy carriers spreads the load.

If i am not mistaken before the start of the tournament it was going to be Wales v Ireland for the championship.

Now Ireland cannot win the tournament surely all the pressure now falls on Wales to prove that they deserve 3rd in the world title.

Lovely weather today, glad the roof will be open.

majesticimperialman wrote:If i am not mistaken before the start of the tournament it was going to be Wales v Ireland for the championship.

Now Ireland cannot win the tournament surely all the pressure now falls on Wales to prove that they deserve 3rd in the world title.

I think you are mistaken Maj! I don’t think England were excluded as potential winners in discussions pre-tournament, were they?

Maybe Maj means that Wales v Ireland on the final weekend was being seen as the title decider? I was cautiously optimistic, but not expecting to beat Ireland / Wales away from home before the tournament, so I thought Wales v Ireland would decide it

Now I think we're going to win it 

The optimist in me says Wales 19-17 England.

The realist says England will get over that all too crucial 20-point mark and Wales, therefore, will lose: Wales 22-27 England.

Honestly, this could be a bit of a hammering if England turn up in the first quarter, get the bounce of the ball etc. Obviously that first 2 minutes thing needs to be broken and you'd hope Wales can manage it. The physical power will be relentless: you look at the power from England's bench and it will be 80 minutes of physicality. Wales have to keep the ball alive, keep it moving, play their phaseplay game with the knowledge that England know that is their strength and that dragging them into a slow arm wrestle before pouncing on the counter will likely result in an English win. Needless to say, Wales need to be squeaky clean, kick their goals, take their chances, and absolutely fing hammer them at every collision opportunity.

What a mammoth test for the likes of Hill, Navidi, Anscombe, Parkes and Adams, who is in excellent form. These players have now found themselves in the spine of the Welsh team and need to perform accordingly. Moriarty stepped up 2 years ago in this fixture and got himself a place on the Lions tour as a result. What an opportunity to book a place in the RWC squad, as well as take a big step towards a potential title!

For everyone's sake, let's hope for a Welsh win!

England were pretty much written off as potential champions because they had to play Ireland and Wales away, and with England’s record in Dublin and Ireland being arguably the form team in world rugby, it was assumed that England would do well to record a narrow loss in Dublin.

I know that I went into that game hoping for a good performance, but not expecting a result - an expectation that I upgraded after the first three minutes of the game.

Wales - on the back of a strong run and a first ever clean sweep in the Autumn Internationals - were tipped by a lot of pundits as the tournamment’s dark horse candidates.

And now? We know what England will do - ruthlessly - if their opposition gives them space behind the defensive line. We know that they have a brutally aggressive defensive system that has stifled some very effective attacks and forced mistakes from one very good team, and one team that’s very dangerous if given the chance.

We don’t know much about Wales. They had their traditional awful opening to a campaign (why does that consistently happen with any Gatland team?), and then they fielded essentially a B-team against Italy. We can expect a much better organised defence, a combination of power and broken field pace in attack, and an ability to mix things up in the later stages of the game.

That said, Wales are in some ways more of a known quantity than England. They play their game; we know what it is and the problem is stopping it. Whereas we have yet to see how much England will vary their tactics against a team with a different set of strengths.

That said, I don’t think we’ve seen all the variety that England have available to them in attack. They’ve got heavyweight carriers in George, Vunipola and Tuilagi, distributors in Farrell, Slade and Daly, a player who can do both in Sinckler, and in May they have a player who is turning chips behind the defence into a percentage play.

Against that, Wales have creativity in Anscombe, power runners in Davies, North and Moriarty, broken field excellence from Williams and Adams (who for me has been one of the most impressive players in the tournament so far) - plenty of weapons, but with less variety at any given point. That said, if they can force Daly to field high balls, they will create chances.

Stopping the Welsh attack is likely to be a question of “here’s what we’re going to do, now try and stop us”. Stopping the English one is likely to need an exceptionally co-ordinated and disciplined defence, because if it gets pulled out of shape at any point they have so many options for how to get past it. No doubt Sean Edwards is relishing the challenge - but it’s quite another thing to stop it.

If England don’t get fazed by the environment or end up on the wrong side of the ref, then I think they will have enough different weapons that they will eventually crack the Welsh defence. I expect it to take some time and require some patience though. If England finish the third quarter with a decent lead, I think it will be enough to win. If it’s close going into the final 20, then either side could nick it.

I don't maj, no!

Poorfour wrote:
We don’t know much about Wales. They had their traditional awful opening to a campaign (why does that consistently happen with any Gatland team?), and then they fielded essentially a B-team against Italy. We can expect a much better organised defence, a combination of power and broken field pace in attack, and an ability to mix things up in the later stages of the game.

Apart from last 6 Nations!

My theory on it is where the players are coming from, I.e. mainly poorly club sides. There doesn’t appear to be much correlation between the regions’ performances and Wales results, with tournament wins and grand slams coming off the back of miserable club performances. But it must have an impact on the players that Gatland has to work with - they must turn up, by and large, lacking confidence, used to losing, playing poor rugby that is resulting in losing a lot in the league and Europe. So I reckon it takes a while for Gats and team to get them up to speed and over their club experience. Last year Scarlets were flying high and, due to lots of injuries to usual first choice players, the Wales team was stocked with Scarlets players for the opening game and we went and stuffed Scotland first up. So there might be something in that theory. Who knows!

Everyone wants to beat the best.

Which is why England's win over Ireland was such a big achievement.

Away from home yeah. To beat the 2nd best is a good feeling.

Absolutely. Weeks, and possibly months, of preparation of a gameplan made to stifle and exploit Ireland. Reckon Eddie and John have got something similar lined up for Wales...?

I expect so. As I've said previously they'll need to protect the ball as well as they have been as Wales do offer a big threat there but we should have enough today bar a big loss of form.

miaow wrote:Absolutely. Weeks, and possibly months, of preparation of a gameplan made to stifle and exploit Ireland. Reckon Eddie and John have got something similar lined up for Wales...?

Although Ireland are the better side currently, I imagine it's much harder to plan to stop Wales. Wales have the ability to cut loose more than Ireland which makes then a very dangerous beast.

If Wales weren't Wales, they'd be one of my favourite sides to watch when in full flow, they can play some great stuff.

Oh I think the current England game plan would cause problems for any opponent. My main concern is that it is an attritional style for both England and their opponents. Which is another way of saying that you do have to wonder if they can keep up that same workrate.

With Ireland it is safe to say that they had some key players short on match practice, which did make a difference, but ultimately England's game helped to make Ireland look worse than they actually are. For an England fan the manner of the victory was hugely encouraging

The Oracle wrote:

Poorfour wrote:
We don’t know much about Wales. They had their traditional awful opening to a campaign (why does that consistently happen with any Gatland team?), and then they fielded essentially a B-team against Italy. We can expect a much better organised defence, a combination of power and broken field pace in attack, and an ability to mix things up in the later stages of the game.

Apart from last 6 Nations!

My theory on it is where the players are coming from, I.e. mainly poorly club sides. There doesn’t appear to be much correlation between the regions’ performances and Wales results, with tournament wins and grand slams coming off the back of miserable club performances. But it must have an impact on the players that Gatland has to work with - they must turn up, by and large, lacking confidence, used to losing, playing poor rugby that is resulting in losing a lot in the league and Europe. So I reckon it takes a while for Gats and team to get them up to speed and over their club experience. Last year Scarlets were flying high and, due to lots of injuries to usual first choice players, the Wales team was stocked with Scarlets players for the opening game and we went and stuffed Scotland first up. So there might be something in that theory. Who knows!

That can’t be it, not entirely, because it’s happened with his Lions tours as well - where at least some of the players are coming from successful club seasons. The first test of both tours was very poor, especially compared to what followed in the third tests.

Not had the same preparation time they did before the Ireland game. They're also now much more of a known quantity - the SA tour, the AIs, and now two games in the 6Ns to analyse and prepare for.

If Wales had 3-4 more players in key positions (reliable kicker at 10/15; Faletau etc.) I'd say this would be evens. Wales are constantly underestimated in their ability to turn up on the biggest stage. The issue they have, probably more than Ireland or England, is backing it up. However, I'd also say they're 'streakier' than the other two - when they do hit a vein of form, they can be unstoppable. But that hasn't really happened for a while, due to Lions/Gatland and injuries.

I'm not sure we can even talk about form yet. England have played one proper test match and then faced a joke of a French team who were significantly less competitive than they were in Paris (not even running back to chase May in the 1st minute of the game for a try). Wales did ok in Paris and then played the seconds.

The key areas for Wales:

- Can they steal ball at the breakdown?
England got away with killing the ball in the 17 and 18 yet weren't punished in the stats, particularly in 17. They were happy to kill the ball in the 22 (Launchbury came close to a yellow) but by and large got away with it. Wales have to both compete at the breakdown (Tips, Navidi, Rob Evs, Hill, AWJ) and also make sure they get clean ball themselves.
- Collisions
Pretty obvious one. Not sure how Wales can 'win' this area - have to both 'front up' but also be clever i.e. don't just run straight at them. Move them around, run at space and shoulders.
- Kicking
England won the game last year because they won the territorial game and just floated diagonal kicks to the Welsh 3/4s. We've seen kicking used in an attacking sense but, more than that, the ability to play the game in England's half will determine much of the game. Big  risk going up against three frontline English kickers without Halfpenny or Biggar. Have the chase, and win, up and unders because England will be rolling the ball into areas that leave Liam Williams, Adams and North under pressure. Goalkicking goes without saying. Pressure on Anscombe.

Other than that it's just the obvious. Can anyone get an edge in the set piece? Who deals with the pressure/who can work out the opposition's lineout calls? Generally, does anyone buckle under pressure? Mistakes, accuracy, decision making etc. Wales have to have the confidence and belief that they can win games by going for 5s and 7s rather than 3s from the first minute. They can't just play in the final 20 - when they're likely to be shattered - in the hope that opening up the game will result in a comeback.

Wales should have won this fixture 2 years ago but didn't get those tries. To my mind Wales look a similar standard but England look better than then. Tuilagi is integral for them, B Vunipola huge as well. Farrell finally using his passing strengths - one-off flat/wide passes rather than regularly playing flat to the line and improvising a la Sexton or Russell - and is looking as good as I've seen him play at 10. But I still think England are very much beatable - it's just they're physical strength is almost impossible to beat for 80 minutes. Play it loose and they have the players to hit back; play it accurate and they can drag you down, spoil the game, and then score tries themselves. The truly top quality fnishers for Wales - North, Liam, JD2 - have to take the half-chances and, ultimately, have to get over the tryline with some clinicality.

Also, as a prediction, I can see Jaco Peyper pulling off one (or maybe even 2 or 3) big bull faeces call, probably for England but maybe for Wales, that has a big bearing on the game. Owen Farrell shoulder charge against Australia big.

Right, I’m off out! Taxi to Cardiff awaits. I’ve been to mini rugby with my son. I’ve played Sterophonics’ first album from start to end. The sun is shining. There is not a cloud in the sky. No hint of a breeze. But there’s certainly something in the air!

Good luck all!

May the best Wales win

Tanks make a lot of ground but are notoriously difficult to keep operational on the battlefield. We already seen one English main battle tank have mechanical breakdown due to the effects of two rampaging schirmishes with the Irish and French. If they lose a few more mid game with the Welsh then the tide could turn on their 6N fortunes.
Gotta keep them tanks operational!

SecretFly wrote:Tanks make a lot of ground but are notoriously difficult to keep operational on the battlefield.  We already seen one English main battle tank have mechanical breakdown due to the effects of two rampaging schirmishes with the Irish and French.  If they lose a few more mid game with the Welsh then the tide could turn on their 6N fortunes.  
Gotta keep them tanks operational!

Check out the England bench if you want to see tanks. Injuries are always disruptive but the replacements offer some serious power

Beautiful day and the ever enthralling encounter that is Wales v England to come.

Don't days like these just remind you it isn't all bad? Win or lose, we will always have rugby.

Don't fancy this to be a close one, England by a three score margin, I reckon. Not long to wait now! Hope for an excellent game of rugby and the absolute minimum of controversy from the officials.

Duty281 wrote:Don't fancy this to be a close one, England by a three score margin, I reckon. Not long to wait now! Hope for an excellent game of rugby and the absolute minimum of controversy from the officials.

Just quoting this for later on...

miaow wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Don't fancy this to be a close one, England by a three score margin, I reckon. Not long to wait now! Hope for an excellent game of rugby and the absolute minimum of controversy from the officials.

Just quoting this for later on...

It won't be edited or removed, have no fear!

Don't know how this one will go. Wales have looked hopeless in attack so far this 6N but in defence (particularly the breakdown) they are very good. Having those flankers in tandem as well should ensure a tough day up front for England. The refs interpretation at the breakdown will be key as well.

No Halfpenny is a big boost for England as North and Adams are good wingers but being able to combine Halfpenny and Williams in a back three would have given Wales kick defence a serious boost. England are going to kick and chase so the Welsh alignment will be key.

I am getting nervous now. Quite like the England match to be early doors so I can actually enjoy the other matches though this france game is rather good. Apparently they're bothered again.

Can't see the early try coming for us today, think it'll be an early exchange of pens with the game opening up 2nd half. The likes of Genge, Cokanasiga, Robson and Launchbury coming on for fresh dynamic impact could edge it for us.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I am getting nervous now. Quite like the England match to be early doors so I can actually enjoy the other matches though this france game is rather good. Apparently they're bothered again.

Give it 10 mins.

Ha. True. Maybe they're moving back to Jekyll and Hyde rather than just being rubbish.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I am getting nervous now. 

Me too. I did not expect to win against Ireland, so no nerves. I was certain we would beat France, so no nerves. I believe we should beat Wales, but fear it will be tight and we might not do it. So yeah getting nervous.

Wish our game was first. I hate waiting for big games, even if not very confident

Just think how we'll feel waiting for the grand slam game vs Scotland risca!

Rather it be later than earlier. Wales tend to play better in the early evenings. Feel like the crowd will be better as well - enough time to warm up for it, but not too late that they're thinking about getting out early to catch the train.

Irrespective of form, always the one I'm most nervous about as well. Four years in Cardiff does that to a man.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just think how we'll feel waiting for the grand slam game vs Scotland risca!  

fair point.

miaow wrote:Rather it be later than earlier. Wales tend to play better in the early evenings. Feel like the crowd will be better as well - enough time to warm up for it, but not too late that they're thinking about getting out early to catch the train.

Good kick off time for those attending, I’ll grant you.

miaow wrote:Rather it be later than earlier. Wales tend to play better in the early evenings. Feel like the crowd will be better as well - enough time to warm up for it, but not too late that they're thinking about getting out early to catch the train.

I don't like later games with n Cardiff. Too many drunks inside and outside the stadium. And way too much having to stand during play to allow people in and out of their seats.

Think ive probably spilt beer on you at a game LT.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think ive probably spilt beer on you at a game LT.

Maybe, but like most born again teetotalers I am perhaps a tad zealous at times.