Is the Rabo a serious competition?

First topic message reminder :

Ulster fielded many debutants for the away fixture against Leinster and got smashed 42-13 then made 15 changes (15!!!) for their home fixture against Munster today and smashed them 33-17. According to a Welsh commentator it was a Munster 3rd string that took the field.
In Wales this evening we witnessed a much changed Turk side after their home win against the O's, take on Newport GD and got a lucky win. Not surprisingly Cardiff have many players "injured" or "ill" for the new year's day away fixture against the O's.
I wonder what the Leinster team will be at Cardiff on Jan 7th?

ipso facto the Rabo isn't a serious competition.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:HERSH raises a valid point. Although it really grinds my gears to say that since the bulk of his posts seem to be an attempt to antagonize other posters.

However I raised a topic last year concerning Leinster's performance in particular in the HC. They were beaten by Glasgow at the RDS and then a couple of months later destroyed Glasgow in the HC with Leinster fans unashamadly admitting that their team does not really bother with the Rabo.

Edinburgh did something pretty similar against Glasgow at the weekend, a team of reserves keeping the big guns fresh for the Heino.....

So Rugger, you'd prefer see bloodbath rugby every week in the Pro12? You wouldn't like Glasgow players getting any feeling of confidence in the year, any rise in spirits. For you say Leinster could have destroyed Glasgow at the RDS if they had really wanted to and sent out the right troops to do the job? Is that really a competitive league either. The best of Leinster doing a cricket score on the best of Glasgow?

The HC is a step up from Pro12..it's the next level.. it's what the players want to be playing in...it's what makes the lesser players want to prove themselves to the coach when they are given a run-out in the Pro12 against Glasgow in the RDS. One competition goads on the other. The AP crowd don't yet want to see the logic in that but the day they do, they'll be back winning the HC. It isn't rocket science. The best players play in the Pro12 to prepare for HC and the lesser players play in the Pro12 to prepare for HC. Same equation for both.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:HERSH raises a valid point. Although it really grinds my gears to say that since the bulk of his posts seem to be an attempt to antagonize other posters.

However I raised a topic last year concerning Leinster's performance in particular in the HC. They were beaten by Glasgow at the RDS and then a couple of months later destroyed Glasgow in the HC with Leinster fans unashamadly admitting that their team does not really bother with the Rabo.

Edinburgh did something pretty similar against Glasgow at the weekend, a team of reserves keeping the big guns fresh for the Heino.....

Ah Radge, I commented on that thread myself and I seem to remember the consensus being that we play at a different level in the HC to the Rabo, not that we don’t really bother with it. That was a bad performance on our part, and a good one on Glasgows part, but we were missing 14 players to the world cup and to be fair it was only our second defeat of the season. We had an off day, and it obviously irked the players into a seriously good performance in Europe a few weeks later.

HERSH wrote:But why is that Alyn?

hmmm...

Maybe its down to the F A C T that they don't take the Rabo seriously and use it just to keep match fit.

I'm not so sure... it is easier for the Rabo teams to bring through young players because they cant get relegated, but if Ulster, Leinster, and Munster were to finish 10th in the league, do you think the coach would keep his job?

There are 12 teams in the English league and it's only the bottom one that has a "chance" of being relegated, (provided the team coming up, meets the league requirements), so I can't see why the Rabo is inferiour.
If you were to put the top 3 Irish and Welsh teams in the English league we'd more than hold our own.

It is a serious competition but that does not mean it isn't deeply flawed. The Welsh rugby public have not warmed to it. Something must be wrong with it.

I'm sure they would hold their own Alyn, but that’s not the debate.

The fact is the Rabo isn't a serious competition, until it gets to the business end of the season anyway when the prospect of silver ware becomes important.

Y Ci wrote:It is a serious competition but that does not mean it isn't deeply flawed. The Welsh rugby public have not warmed to it. Something must be wrong with it.

Alternatively the problem is with the Welsh themselves.

Too much inter club bickering instead of embracing regionalism.
That doesn't make the Pro12 flawed, in iteself, it has more to do with the cack handed way the Welsh regions were set up.

Also given some of the absolutely dire rugby I have watched this year served up by the likes of Bath, Worcester and Falcons I know where I would rather watch my rugby.

HERSH wrote:I'm sure they would hold their own Alyn, but that’s not the debate.

The fact is the Rabo isn't a serious competition, until it gets to the business end of the season anyway when the prospect of silver ware becomes important.

Ok then lets try this a different way, is the super 15 a serious competition?
No one gets relegated from that, they develop the best players in the world there.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:HERSH raises a valid point. Although it really grinds my gears to say that since the bulk of his posts seem to be an attempt to antagonize other posters.

However I raised a topic last year concerning Leinster's performance in particular in the HC. They were beaten by Glasgow at the RDS and then a couple of months later destroyed Glasgow in the HC with Leinster fans unashamadly admitting that their team does not really bother with the Rabo.

Edinburgh did something pretty similar against Glasgow at the weekend, a team of reserves keeping the big guns fresh for the Heino.....

Nobody said our team didn't really bother with the Rabo. We're top of the league for heavens sake, which undermines that claim a little bit. We were missing 14 players to the World Cup at the time and had injuries too. You were taking some confidence from that win, in the build up to the HEC meeting, which is fair enough. We were just warning you that you'd be meeting a different beast in the next match, to the one you met in the league during the World Cup. We still expected to win that league game but played badly and Glasgow played well. We definitely didn't throw the game and accept the loss as necessary. We were playing to win.

I don't understand. If we accept that it is the Welsh that have the 'problem' which means the competition is not attractive, then it will be easier to change the competition than the Welsh, wouldn't it?

Mickado wrote:Ah Radge, I commented on that thread myself and I seem to remember the consensus being that we play at a different level in the HC to the Rabo, not that we don’t really bother with it. That was a bad performance on our part, and a good one on Glasgows part, but we were missing 14 players to the world cup and to be fair it was only our second defeat of the season. We had an off day, and it obviously irked the players into a seriously good performance in Europe a few weeks later.

Glasgow were missing players to the RWC too. Gray, Kellock, Low, Barclay, Cusiter, Jackson, DTH etc. So Glasgow were hardly a full strength side. However as you said yourself its this "differant Level" that really bothers me. Why don't Leinster not play with the same intensity in the Rabo as they do with the HC. With this statement alone you have validated HERSH's point.

SecretFly wrote:So Rugger, you'd prefer see bloodbath rugby every week in the Pro12? You wouldn't like Glasgow players getting any feeling of confidence in the year, any rise in spirits. For you say Leinster could have destroyed Glasgow at the RDS if they had really wanted to and sent out the right troops to do the job? Is that really a competitive league either. The best of Leinster doing a cricket score on the best of Glasgow?

This comment really confuses me. Are you saying that Leinster held back to give Glasgow confidence? Or that by losing to Glasgow, leinster in some way made the league more competative? Either statement has confused me and I would like you to explain what you mean. I played rugby for a long time and I would feel any team who did not give us their best, resulted in the most hollow of wins.

HERSH's point about Rabo clubs preserving their best players is a fact that can't really be argued against. Munster do it with ROG, POC and Leinster do it with BOD, SOB, Kearney etc. Just recently Edinburgh fielded their reserves in the 1872 match at Firhill to preserve the likes of Visser, Laidlaw, Ford, Jacobson amongst others. If the Rabo had some kind of relegation system or clause that denied the bottom team European qualification I would bet a lot of money these big names would have turned out on Sunday for Edinburgh.

The Jeff, with it's relegation spectre looming over the bottom placed team seems to motivate more than the glory of winning the trophy itself.

AlynDavies wrote:

HERSH wrote:I'm sure they would hold their own Alyn, but that’s not the debate.

The fact is the Rabo isn't a serious competition, until it gets to the business end of the season anyway when the prospect of silver ware becomes important.

Ok then lets try this a different way, is the super 15 a serious competition?
No one gets relegated from that, they develop the best players in the world there.

Yes it is as they very rarely play 2nd/3rd string teams or protect players for HC fixtures.

When the Italians grow stronger (and they will) and the Welsh public finally accept regionalism (I hope they do), the Rabo will be easily the best league in Europe.

The Welsh thing is a conundrum to me. If they went back to 12 clubs they'd spread their players to thin and start shipping 50+ points to the French and English clubs and the Irish provinces. In fact their best players would probably leave Wales in droves. The result would be the devastation of Welsh ruby.

If the public just came out and supported the regions strongly they'd get to see the best Welsh players (and some of them are very very good) representing their fellow Welsh men against the best in Europe. They'd help Welsh rugby financially but the extra support would also give moral support and inspiration to the players and help them succeed.

Of course some Welsh people do support the regions strongly. But there's a big chunk of the rugby loving public who won't accept either option and their alternative is to sulk and snipe at the regions from the sidelines. What good is that to anyone?

Three and counting. Wont be long to double figures I suspect

Grow up Hersh most Pro12 teams don't even have enough players to put out a 3rd team and as you well know Aviva team rotate players frequently

You really are a tiresome individual

Geoff, you realise he's just on the wind up.

He had a big debate and then today posts a comment like:

"Is the Rabo a serious league . . . . . no"

which simply kicks it all off again with new people. However if you've been debating it earlier you should see its just a wind up.

Why don't Leinster not play with the same intensity in the Rabo as they do with the HC.

They do when they have to. They don't when they don't have to. Exactly the same as Toulouse in both the Top 14 and the HEC. It's a long old season in Europe. The best teams with the best squads can juggle their resources and attempt to peak at the right times to try on win on both fronts. Nobody has done a domestic/European double in a long time, which shows how difficult it is. But Toulouse and Leinster have come quite close in recent years.

Feckless Rogue wrote:When the Italians grow stronger (and they will) and the Welsh public finally accept regionalism (I hope they do), the Rabo will be easily the best league in Europe.

The Welsh thing is a conundrum to me. If they went back to 12 clubs they'd spread their players to thin and start shipping 50+ points to the French and English clubs and the Irish provinces. In fact their best players would probably leave Wales in droves. The result would be the devastation of Welsh ruby.

I don't think the Welsh will ever fully buy into the Regions. There is just too much history and rivalry between the different towns and villages and there isn't the common identity that people buy into at that level the way we have with our provinces.

For the Welsh I think they only put their rivalries aside when it comes to the National team and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

It's not a wind up, there is a reason people are staying away from the game in Wales and Scotland because they know that the visiting team don't play their best players all the time so why waste hard earned money to watch for example Ulster or Munsters 2nds.

The Rabo isn't taken seriously by some teams until its the playoffs or they have been dumped out of the HC.

Ok

Feckless Rogue wrote:When the Italians grow stronger (and they will) and the Welsh public finally accept regionalism (I hope they do), the Rabo will be easily the best league in Europe.

There really is no "issue" with Wales, the Welsh have and always have been interested ONLY in the 6 Nations... Club rugby has always been much, much lower in focus.
The 6 Nations is like Christmas, it happens once a year then most of Wales forgets all about rugby until the next 6 Nations one comes along.

Ulster, Leinster, Munster and Connacht work because they have existed for a long time, the top Welsh clubs were Cardiff, Swansea, and Llanelli, with Neath, Pontypridd, or Bridgend occasionally challenging them.
The problem is the fans from the clubs like Pontypridd, Neath and Bridgend havent gone to the new regions as they don't like the team the region has been created from.

Club rugby was never that popular, most of the top clubs could get between 5,000 and 8,000 people (with away fans too) but the regions can match those numbers. The only time in my life time that was exceeded was during the Swansea and Cardiff break away year when they played friendlies against the English teams and their attendances rocketed to 10,000+ fans for most games. Simply because the Welsh love to play English teams. Attendences in the LV Cup are very strong from the Welsh teams when English teams come to visit even their much weakened sides.

Cardiff spent most of their history plundering the best players from their neighbouring towns, Pontypridd and Bridgend, why would the fans of those 2 teams want to go and support them?

Attendences are down because the 7,000 fans of Swansea would play at home to say Pontypridd who might bring 2,000 fans with them. We have the origonal club fans still there but Aironi, Glasgow, Connacht don;t bring any travelling support so it's just the "home" fans.

HERSH wrote:The Rabo isn't taken seriously by some teams until its the playoffs or they have been dumped out of the HC.

What do you define as taking seriously? If you can win games without your front line players then why would you risk them if you have tougher games coming up?

The reality is that Leinster and Munster send out a team to win and more often than not that is what they do.

Is the Football Premiership not a serious competition because Man Utd, Chelsea or Man City occaisionally rotate their players?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So Rugger, you'd prefer see bloodbath rugby every week in the Pro12? You wouldn't like Glasgow players getting any feeling of confidence in the year, any rise in spirits. For you say Leinster could have destroyed Glasgow at the RDS if they had really wanted to and sent out the right troops to do the job? Is that really a competitive league either. The best of Leinster doing a cricket score on the best of Glasgow?

This comment really confuses me. Are you saying that Leinster held back to give Glasgow confidence? Or that by losing to Glasgow, leinster in some way made the league more competative? Either statement has confused me and I would like you to explain what you mean. I played rugby for a long time and I would feel any team who did not give us their best, resulted in the most hollow of wins.

It shouldn't be confusing. 'Competitive' rugby, as spoken about by people like Hersh, means two roughly equal sides giving it their all in nearly every game they play in a year. No time to relax, no side that is weak enough that you can relax against and always the threat of some organisational catastrophy around the corner to keep your players and your passion honest.

I say such a league never did and never will exist. There is always top dog sides that worry less and underdogs that are always worrying. When was the last time Leicester really worried about the dangers of relegation? I don't actually know the answer, so maybe Hersh could tell me - but I'd guess that it isn't often on their agenda of League pressures.

You seem to suggest it's a secret you've uncovered that a side like Leinster would save some spice for Heineken and leave a Pro12 home game to the juniors. It's obvious Leinster run their season that way. They get to keep some of their big guns free from injury and ready for HC and at the same time they can give their young hopefuls (players of the future) some valuable time in a Pro12 game. Where is the mystery in that? I'm saying that's a natural rhythm that brings success NOT just in HC but also in Pro12. The truth is you do NOT have to win all your games to stay close to the top of the Pro12 (neither do you need to do so in AP). As long as you have a squad you are confident in, as long as you have future Pro12 campaigns to think about, you can plot and plan your season (just like the big boys in the AP).

Now Glasgow..my point about them is that I don't recall them moaning that Leinster didn't put out a real side. They enjoyed their win, they added it to their record of wins against Leinster and they were happy with their day. They are on their own development journey in the Pro12... a win is always positive - that's what I meant. Cricket score rugby is not a 'competitive' league

Do you think it's all a bit, well safe?

You know, when you go out with a girl, you want her to play a bit hard to get, like. Makes it more interesting.

That is just one reason. HERSH you need to understand that regionalism is in it's infancy here in Wales.
We are working on making things better and if the English clubs adopted the regional system you would also need to start from fresh.
On the International front things are looking up for Wales. Yes the HC is important but personally I see the regions as being feeder clubs to the national sides success any domestic cups that are picked up on the way are just a added bonus.

England would be a lot easier to regionalise as the heartlands are spread out a bit:

Yorkshire
East Midlands
London
South West

roddersm wrote:

HERSH wrote:The Rabo isn't taken seriously by some teams until its the playoffs or they have been dumped out of the HC.

What do you define as taking seriously? If you can win games without your front line players then why would you risk them if you have tougher games coming up?

The reality is that Leinster and Munster send out a team to win and more often than not that is what they do.

Is the Football Premiership not a serious competition because Man Utd, Chelsea or Man City occaisionally rotate their players?

The footie Prem doesn't have trouble attracting fans to watch it plus the relegation battle is just as exciting as the battle to win it, so what you're saying then is that the Rabo is a two team league, oh how exciting!!! no wonder it's dying on it's ass.

Cymroglan wrote: Yes the HC is important but personally I see the regions as being feeder clubs to the national sides success any domestic cups that are picked up on the way are just a added bonus.

It's really interesting that you should say that....after watching the Irish interpros and then the Ospreys v Blues last week, I noticed that the intensity was noticibly less and the vibe was more of a friendly match by comparison.

The quality of rugby was there but the players seemed more relaxed, almost like a training game for the Welsh squad against teammates, whereas the Irish guys were knocking lumps out of each other as per usual.

It struck me that the rivalry just doesn't have the same intensity between the Welsh regions as between the Irish provinces.

HERSH wrote:
so what you're saying then is that the Rabo is a two team league, oh how exciting!!! no wonder it's dying on it's ass.

Yes and the AP is such an open competition. I mean it's hard to pick between Saracens and er ......well I suppose it could come down to which side doesn't feel too tired after such a tough season....

I think Hersh will be disappointed in the long run because I suspect we'll all be in a ring fenced pan-European league in the future.

roddersm
Yes it is noticeable that the players seem more relaxed in a Welsh region derby and one other reason for that is that the players all live close to each other so are able to meet up socially and at official functions more so than the Irish lads or English players.
Is it a good thing or a bad thing ? for the regions maybe not but for Wales it creates good team spirit.

roddersm wrote:

HERSH wrote:
so what you're saying then is that the Rabo is a two team league, oh how exciting!!! no wonder it's dying on it's ass.

Yes and the AP is such an open competition. I mean it's hard to pick between Saracens and er ......well I suppose it could come down to which side doesn't feel too tired after such a tough season....

Actually Saracens are still worried about the relegation implications of only being 11 places above the bottom of the table!! I hear they're fretting in the boardroom...valium breakfasts for all with the worry.

roddersm wrote:The reality is that Leinster and Munster send out a team to win and more often than not that is what they do.

Ulster and Munster have been a little ropey this year, form wise though, at least in the league.

Cymroglan wrote:roddersm
Yes it is noticeable that the players seem more relaxed in a Welsh region derby and one other reason for that is that the players all live close to each other so are able to meet up socially and at official functions more so than the Irish lads or English players.
Is it a good thing or a bad thing ? for the regions maybe not but for Wales it creates good team spirit.

I don't know the answer to that, it was just an observation. The Irish players really get on too as far as I am aware but once you pull on your provincial jersey its a different story and the players really want to smash each other and get the win.

It stays on the pitch and thats the way it should be when there's provincial pride at stake. As long as the rivalries don't come into the national squad then its a good thing for me.

Glas a du wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Also it's not true to say only the Scots and Italians risk anything - as 2 seasons ago both Edinburgh and Glasgow finished above the Dragons and Scarlets and they are capable of finishing up the table again, Treviso continue to improve and I wouldn't be suprised to see them finish 8th this season and better next season and I imagine Aironi will improve over the next few seasons (they already have some impressive scalps).

I'd say the problem with your suggestion Glas is that none in power will go for it as it disadvantages them - ie the clubs - risk not getting European money, the unions - same reason, the organisers - there's a risk that if say there's only 1 Welsh team or no Scottish teams in the HEC and they loose all their best players because of it then that will severly affect viewing figures (both at matches and on TV) in that country

I've not got a problem with any of that because those potential negatives will make the Rabo games EXCITING.

Glas, Russian Roulette is 'EXCITING' but the vested interests of the Unions (you know, their contiued existance in the professional game) mean that a 'pure' league is never going to happen. Basically, lets remove this from rugby to politics.

Are you seriously suggesting that say, the EU, should be purely a weight of numbers organisation? That whatever national nuances are irrelevant in the over all scheme of things? You might agree with further European integration (I do) but I am not so retardedly naive to ignore ubiquitous examples of how it would be to the detriment of some countries.

Similarly, Irish, Scottish, Welsh & Italian alike stands to potentially lose more than they gain under you proposals. Not everyone can lose of course, but a bad season for an Irish Welsh team and that could set their internal structures back for three of four years.

Also, the S15 is a non relagtion supra-national competition, it is 5-6 seasons older than the Celtic league, it is doing ok, with manufactured teams.

So to the Welsh, Scottish & Italian posters & fans; suck it up. Your local team is not going to ever be in the top flight of the game again. Live with it. While Munster etc have been around as representative sides, it it not like there has always been a love-in in Limerick rugby, or no Cork/Limerick shoite (exists to this day, i mean the team have TWO bases in each city to keep peeps happy, FFS!) suck it up, if you want to support your Welsh Premiership team, it is there of course, but if you want top quality rugby, rock on down to CC stadium or the Liberty etc and embrace the reality of the modern game.

Because, on e thing is for sure, your kids won't be supporting 'old' Llanelli in 10 years time. So the choice is adapt or be side-lined by evolution.

As a Munster & Ireland fan while I enjoy the sustained competetiveness & success of the provinces the best thing that can happen for them, is greater success of Welsh & Scottish & Italian teams, both in the Rabo and then filtering in to Europe. Well supported teams of course, are no guarentee or quick fix in terms of that success, but it aint going to hinder it in anyway, having money to spend on a few quality signings or to invest in elite age grade facilities etc.

Your choice.

Debs, a lot of good points made. However:

Similarly, Irish, Scottish, Welsh & Italian alike stands to potentially lose more than they gain under you proposals. Not everyone can lose of course, but a bad season for an Irish Welsh team and that could set their internal structures back for three of four years.

But Connacht and the Dragons do lose out to Aironi and Edinburgh on occasions despite not being poorer teams, how can that be right?

And who says it will set them back that much anyway?

But you're right, politics, this is all about keeping Connacht in their place isn't it?

Glas a du wrote:It's very arrogant to assume both Italian teams will fail to qualify every year.

Yes I agree the " the purpose if the league is to provide a viable domestic competition on those if the six nations unable to sustain domestic sides of a callibre to challenge in the Heineken Cup."However I don't think HC qualification has anything to do with this

What's so confusing,yes I agree the purpose of the league is to provide a viable domestic competition but I don't think that means the league should have anything to do with HC qualification.The league is there to give our teams a competition when the HC isn't on,so they can be develop and improve against other teams of a high quality and for the sheer pride of beating the the best that the other countries can put out.
How about addressing some of the points I made rather than a one click reply?

I don't think HC qualification has anything to do with (a viable domestic competition)
No it doesn't unless you chose to make it so. Everybody balances up the benefit of certainty and keeping the concerns of different nations cancelled out, and the fact that the uncertainty that people see as a negative may in fact add the spice the league needs to take off. Who knows the conservatives may well be proven right.
Were the Top 14 and Aviva Premiership less meaningful competitions before the HC came along?
No, but they are proper leagues with the benefits of play offs, euro qualification and relegation adding interest from top to bottom. They have developed in tandem with the HC and have been a gradual evolution as opposed to the revolution we faced in Wales.
Why can the Rabo not be a league for it's own sake?
To be fair I am
Not denying that it's improving, I am debating whether the pace of the improvement seen can be speeded up. If it does not change it will not be the end of the World, but that is not a reason not to change it.
unlikely to affect my team for many years yet.
Good, but irrelevant sorry. It's Connacht that are losing out. They are playing well enough to qualify, but because they do a tad worse than Ulster they are dropped out in favour of sides who don't do as well in the league.
I think taking away places from (Italy) would set them back when we should be doing everything possible to bring them on
Do you think getting whacked in the HC group stages and never qualifying for the QF is preferrable to playing a mix of teams in the Amlin where they have every chance of qualifying for the knock out stages. I think an Amlin win would be much more likely than a HC SF to the Italian sides and would do a lot more to raise their profile. Let's face it, Sky aren't interested in them in the HC.

How could the Rabo expand to accommodate new side?

Technical question.

How is the admittance to the Rabo decided?

One final stab at this topic.

Given that the Unions that compete in the Six Nations are the SAME Unions that constructed the Heineken Cup (that's the facts. Let's deal with the facts)... Given that this is so, does anyone really think the Italian RU or the Scottish rugby union would forfeit their HC rights in order to remain in a 'domestic' League?
The HC is the top competition in Europe, the Italians and Scottish have by right places in it. It has a higher profile for fans and it has better sponsorship; it is potentally a much bigger cashcow and a much more valuable showpiece for the sport in those nations (in all our nations, to be honest). And - most importantly of all for the individual unions concerned - it is a far tougher test for potential International players than Pro12.

Italian and Scottish Unions negotiated as EQUAL PARTNERS the creation and structure of the HC. Do we really think they'll give up those places? Do we really think they'd accept a League system whereby they give up automatic right to those places?

"Well, tough", seems to be the response. "They'd just have to accept it if the league was re-organised. Accept it or leave".

Well no, they wouldn't. That's the crunch issue. They Italians and Scottish (and indeed the Irish or Welsh, if fate dictated that in future years they were the weaker sides in the league) wouldn't accept it because they wouldn't HAVE to accept it. Why? Because the Top 14, Pro12 and AP do not - I repeat, DO NOT- organise or administer the Heineken Cup. They don't control who gets in or the criteria used to select participants. That's just fact.

So which Pro12 boardroom suit is going to have a meeting with the Italian and Scottish Unions and tell them their places in Heineken will have to less certain for the good of the development of the Pro12??

Who is this guy who would have the authority? Nobody, that's who. Any executive who demanded a more accomodating stance from the Unions would be a thief in a house demanding that the owners hand over the car keys. The Pro12 bosses don't own the HC, the Unions do - and Italy and Scotland are part of that ownership group, they are shareholders.

The Pro 12 exists because we are small nations trying to compete with much larger neighbours in the guise of France and England. It is a league developed to suit the purposes of the smaller nations within the Six Nations family. It cannot have the same rules and regulations that pertains to the Top14 and the AP because it is not a single Union League. It is simply quite different and must choose it's own way or fold up completely. It can never run itself like the Tope 14 or AP, it simply can't - logic forbids it.

One final stab at this topic.

yeah right!

...does anyone really think the Italian RU or the Scottish rugby union would forfeit their HC rights in order to remain in a 'domestic' League?

No I doubt that they would de facto. But that does not mean that de jure they are not suffering from short termism or an inability to see the bigger picture.

The HC is the top competition in Europe, the Italians and Scottish have by right places in it.

They would still have the right to compete for those places and in all likelihood would get at least 50% of their current allocation.

It has a higher profile for fans and it has better sponsorship; it is potentally a much bigger cashcow and a much more valuable showpiece for the sport in those nations (in all our nations, to be honest). And - most importantly of all for the individual unions concerned - it is a far tougher test for potential International players than Pro12.

Which makes it a goal worth striving for, adding to the intensity of the qualifying competition

Italian and Scottish Unions negotiated as EQUAL PARTNERS the creation and structure of the HC. Do we really think they'll give up those places? Do we really think they'd accept a League system whereby they give up automatic right to those places?

They won't want to granted, but a 100% representation in the HC irrespective of quality (whilst initially fine of course) is outmoded now, especially given the try bonuspoint system.

"Well, tough", seems to be the response. "They'd just have to accept it if the league was re-organised. Accept it or leave".

Who is to say they won't maintain the level of representation they have now, or if not that they actually deserved to? Is it better for them to accept this now or never get two teams in again if one of their regions folds?

They wouldn't HAVE to accept it

.

agreed

The Pro12 bosses don't own the HC, the Unions do - and Italy and Scotland are part of that ownership group, they are shareholders.

agreed

The Pro 12 exists (as) a league developed to suit the purposes of the smaller nations within the Six Nations family. It is simply quite different and must choose it's own way or fold up completely. It can never run itself like the Tope 14 or AP, it simply can't - logic forbids it.

Exactly, if it wants to survive it has to look beyond the short term TV money. Despite the constraints of its structure it must think of itself as a rival to the other two as the best league in Europe, and in my view it has a big advantage in that point of view due to the fact that it is a regional structure. The fruits of this will be borne in a generation or two. However it can not take anything for granted. There will be tough choices and they will probably have to be forced. I just hope the suits in the Unions have the brains and the guts to know what needs to be done.

You conveniently didn't address one thing he said though glas.

the Top 14, Pro12 and AP do not - I repeat, DO NOT- organise or administer the Heineken Cup. They don't control who gets in or the criteria used to select participants. That's just fact.

That is just a fact. Each union has agreed its team allocation. It has nothing to do with the league. This discussion is pointless. The Pro12 will never mimic the Premiership HEC qualification because the Pro12 is 4 separate unions.

There is one way I'd like to get that extra intensity at the bottom though glas. I'd like one extra Italian team and one extra Scottish team in the long run, making it the Pro 14. Then Italian and Scottish teams will not have automatic qualification. The 4 Irish and 4 Welsh will be going for 3 spots each. And the 3 Italians and 3 Scottish will be going for 2 spots each.

But it has to be the 4 separate nations competing for their allocated spots. It can't happen any other way.

Glas, I'm a man of my word. This topic has now concluded for me.....

until it comes up again somewhere else........... see you later on other threads.

Glas,

I could (in the future) see the Pro 12 as becoming a lot more watered down or union orientated.

What I could see if Scotland and Italy had another team each is the league splitting in 4 confrences.

WELSH - Dragons, Scarlets, Blues, Ospreys
SCOTTISH - Edinburgh, Glasgow, Borders?
IRISH - Munster, Leinster, Connacht, Ulster
ITALIAN - Treviso, Aironi, Roma?

Each confrence simply plays the others internally with the winner of each progressing into a playoff with a guaranteed Irish, Italian, Scot and Welsh in it. How each teams do in the confrences would decide HEC qualification and the winning nation would get an extra place.

Logic being it would cut down on travel costs, ensure more local derbies with higher attendances and keep teams at same level.

Not sure it would be good thing but its a route I could see us going down in future.

I didn't deal with that as it is a point made elsewhere.

Look, I think it SHOULD be changed, I have no illusions that it is GOING TO be changed. However, I think that the negatives you assume would flow from the change are; either not negatives at all but positives, or would be less of a problem than those we will face if e.g. Sky go bust.

The discussion is not pointless. From little acorns and all that. Somebody has got to stand up for what is right and not accept that the suits know the lot as they patently do not.

Stag, how would there be enough games in a season though? Would they play each other in a league and a separate cup? Or twice home and away? The Welsh derbies pre leagues were played twice home and away.

Either or really Glas. I had thought that plus the Celtic Cup (straight knock out open draw) would have been way to go.

as accross the conferences you mean?

Yea I reckon so Glas. Play each other within confrences in the league.

Then a completely open draw in the Celtic Cup where anyone can draw anyone (FA Cup style. LV style)

Maybe the TV companies would kick up a fuss with less games. I dont know if TV plays that big a role. I know its not major cash.

Here's an idea for the distant future. There could be four conferences.

Welsh = Ospreys, Scarlets, Cardiff, Dragons
Irish = Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Connacht
Scottish = Edinburgh, Glasgow, Borders, Caledonia Reds
Italian = Treviso, Aironi, Roma?, Prato?

Every team plays the teams in their national conference three times each = 9 games
Every team plays the other 12 teams once, 6 at home, 6 away = 12 games
Total = 21 games, with each team only having to travel abroad 6 times a year in the regular season.
Top 2 teams in each conference go into quarter finals seeded by conference points.
Home advantage in knockouts to higher seeded team.

Each nations Heineken Cup spots are decided by where they finish in their national conference.
Nine national derbies a year would increase interest and attendance in all nations. Particularly in Wales I'd say.

What do ye think? Have I cracked it?