Keith Earls and the number 13

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So Munster have named Keith Earls at outside centre against Treviso. This is now Earls' third match in a row where he has played 13 and looks set to continue this against Castres and Northampton. Given his past experience here for Munster, Ireland and Lions is he a certainty to play there against Wales?

roddersm wrote:Looks like Cave had a cracker on Friday from the hilights. With a good showing from Earls and Spence and O'Malley in the pipeline I think the future is bright at 13.

Justice for Willie!....

Interview in the Sunday Times today with Cave. Says its a bit annoying being known for just being 'Rory's friend'. Also said he was really pleased to be invited to Carton House for pre world cup training as he didn't expect it as he had missed most of last season through injury. Said he felt he did well then and feels he is close to making a breakthrough at international level.

Seems like a really nice lad.

Read an article with Henry too. Recalls his disastrous first cap but says that it was all a month after his father passed and Deccie was exceptional in dealing with him during that time. It was a nice positive interview as well.

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:Looks like Cave had a cracker on Friday from the hilights. With a good showing from Earls and Spence and O'Malley in the pipeline I think the future is bright at 13.

Justice for Willie!....

Interview in the Sunday Times today with Cave. Says its a bit annoying being known for just being 'Rory's friend'. Also said he was really pleased to be invited to Carton House for pre world cup training as he didn't expect it as he had missed most of last season through injury. Said he felt he did well then and feels he is close to making a breakthrough at international level.

Seems like a really nice lad.

In all honesty I was never a huge fan of Cave until he returned last season. I thought he was a solid but limited provincial player with an eye for the tryline and that perhaps his Ulster days were numbered with the emergence of Spence, Marshall etc.

Since his return last season he has been exceptional and his array of skills is far better than I'd first realised. His workrate and attitude has been 1st class and the way he reads the game makes him stand out amongst his peers. He's been pivotal for Ulster in attack and defence and at only 24 still can make big impact at international level.

I still think Earls is more comfortable in the back 3 but credit where its due he did fairly well on Saturday, he took his try well and showed some decent distribution and kicking skills. There were a couple of poorly executed passes, one in particular to Jonny Murphy, but overall a decent performance by him, especially in the 2nd half.

It seems to me that there is a much bigger issue at 12 rather than at 13.

Glad that people appreciated Earls performance at the weekend.

red_stag wrote:It seems to me that there is a much bigger issue at 12 rather than at 13.

I don't think 12 is as big an issue as it appears.

Ian Whitten is playing very well at 12 and McFadden has played well there for Leinster this year when he has got the nod. Downey had a great game against Munster but haven't seen him since. Nevin Spence has been playing at 12 quite a bit although most feel he's better at 13. Paddy Wallace has just returned from injury.

D'arcy is not showing much upturn in form from last season and I think someone else is worth the risk but we need to pick the right balance in midfield or the 6N could be painful viewing.

Whitten is basically 3rd choice for his province. McFadden is playing well there (as you say) when he gets the nod. Why can't he dislodge Darcy. What does Schmidt see in Darcy ahead of him. I dunno but it results in winning rugby. Wallace has just return from injury but that means he isn't match fit right now. Not sure Spence is playing well at 12. Certainly he was better at 13 last year. Many Ulster fans debate the "is he a 12" issue a lot.

12 is a problem position more than 13.

red_stag wrote:Whitten is basically 3rd choice for his province. McFadden is playing well there (as you say) when he gets the nod.

Yes thats true but what matters is that he is playing at 12 and playing well. The provincial coach doesn't always get it right and may have different requirements and priorities.

Donnacha O'Callaghan, Thomas O'Leary, Sean Cronin and numerous other players who aren't necessarily 1st choice at their provinces will be in the mix for the Ireland squad.

If we restricted selection to only nailed on starters for the provinces we'd see a very different national squad. Whitten is playing better than D'arcy so why shouldn't he be considered?

I think three weeks into the Six Nations this thread will still be going strong, with many guys still wondering how Earls is going to do at 13, if he's picked...and reasons why he shouldn't be...followed by Sin é springing valiantly to his defence.

The term Déjà vu was created for threads like this.

when is the squad named?

my head is starting to hurt

According to the IT, the squad will be announced after the next round of HEC games.

Deccie just wants to make sure that Paddy Wallace and D'arcy are fit and that DOC gets a game at lock.... ....

DOD wrote:He must first do well in the HC and then in the wolfhounds. On top of the fact he is not as good as Earls/McFadden/Darcy/Fitzgerald possibly O'Malley.

Clearly not a close follower of the Wolfhounds DOD.
Cave has already played 8 times for the Wolfhounds which includes being a member of the Churchill Cup winners in 2009.
I personnally have seen him in 2 other Wolfhounds games where he was excellent, both times playing alongside McFadden at 12. I really would like to see McFadden given a run at 12 for Leinster.

Cave also did well for the full International side in Canada gaining 2 caps.
Had a cracker on Friday as well so on form.

He has already shown his class at all levels below full Internationals - time to see what he can do as an International. I just don't buy this not ready nonsense. We have to see what he and O'Malley can do sooner or later.
I would also add that he has one of the best rugby brains, amongst the backs, in Irish rugby.

For the record I would be fine with Earls being selected - but for me it would be on the wing though.

Interesting as well to read that he is Ulster's "captain of defense".

He's clearly a sharp lad.

If Cave isn't ready now, he never will be. Played several seasons of Heineken Cup rugby, had a good few appearances for Ireland A- he's ticked all the boxes. He might not get picked but it won't be for lack of experience.

Spot on Geoff. If a player is doing it week in week out in the HC there is no reason for them not to go straight to international squad on merit. I mean people said no to including Downey on the basis that he was not great in a tin pot competition in Vancouver in front of a few Drunken expats in a public park playing the mighty Canada and USA. He played very well in a team who were the 2nd best in Europe last year. Just an example i know the Downey thing has been debated ad nauseum on here. To be fair he has been poor this year

Cave has been a regular fixture for A's and been very good in HC cup Ulster games i have seen last few years. Hope he gets gametime v Italy and Scotland at least.

SecretFly wrote:I think three weeks into the Six Nations this thread will still be going strong, with many guys still wondering how Earls is going to do at 13, if he's picked...and reasons why he shouldn't be...followed by Sin é springing valiantly to his defence.

The term Déjà vu was created for threads like this.

Groundhog Day also springs to mind

dublin_dave wrote: i know the Downey thing has been debated ad nauseum on here. To be fair he has been poor this year

No takers on Whitten's Irish credentials at 12 if he continues to impress. He's 16 stone plus with good hands and still only 23/24 and has already been capped. He runs good lines and offloads well out of the tackle. I think he's a fantastic prospect.

He gave Mafi, who's having a good season, a torrid time at Ravenhill.

Maybe... I would rather find a fantastic (or even "good") replacement for Darcy than fret about which of Earls, Cave et al plays 13. That's actually more pressing, especially if Deccie refuses to start Paddy.

Don Alfonso wrote:Maybe... I would rather find a fantastic (or even "good") replacement for Darcy than fret about which of Earls, Cave et al plays 13. That's actually more pressing, especially if Deccie refuses to start Paddy.

Agree with this.

Thinking of combinations I like the look of any of the following:

McFadden and Cave.
Whitten and Cave.
Whitten and Earls.
Cave and Earls.
Wallace and Cave.
D'arcy and Cave.

By contrast I dislike these combinations to varying degrees:

D'arcy and Earls.
McFadden and Earls.
Wallace and Earls.
Anything with McFadden at 13.

I think there will be better players rodders. No doubt whiten has done very well but he doesn't have a discernible kicking game and could be a little better in traffic I think. Sadly for him I doubt with Wallace and Marshall returning he will get many chances.

Rodders even with Paddy Wallace injured he wasn't able to make the 12 shirt his own. Spence started a lot of games at 12 despite people having problems with it.

I don't see him getting picked when all our other options at 12 are match fit. That being said I'd love Munster to sign him.

I have no probs with Earls, O'Malley or Cave playing at 13, or Darcy, Wallace or McFadden playing at 12.

BTW Cave at 12 for Ireland?? Whats the reasoning behind that.

To be fair, Ulster have moved players out of position a few times instead of choosing the backup. Faloon not getting a look at 7, playing Danielli over D'Arcy for 5 games in a row, and playing Spence at 12 when Whitten is still available. Don't understand why that happens, lack of faith in the back-up player possibly.

I have a problem with EOM playing at 13 for Ireland. I have a problem with Earls playing there as it isn't his best position, but I do love him as a player and will support him playing there for the time being.

red_stag wrote:BTW Cave at 12 for Ireland?? Whats the reasoning behind that.

Thought I'd throw that one out there. He and Earls played together for the 'A's a while back and possibly at underage level too(?). Does anyone have any recollection of how this went.

On paper it works for me. Cave is an extremely smart player who reads the game and can organise the attack and defence. He's also solid defensively and picks great lines. Thats exactly what Earls needs beside him to get the best out of him I think.

The point on Whitten is simple. If he is in the top 2 or 3 Irish players in his position right now, which he is imo then he deserves to be considered. Where he is in the pecking order when everyone is fit or whether there will be better players in the future is irrelevent.

I remember those games, Earls played 12 and Cave played 13, and I thought they both looked brilliant together. Strangely I thought Earls' distribution looked good then, and he was very dangerous at 12. So thank you for refreshing my memory there Rodders how things change! Though I still believe his distribution isn't up to it anymore, and that he looks best in the back three.

I'm sure you can see highlights of the two playing together on youtube.

09 Conor Murray
10 Ian Keatley
11 Simon Zebo
12 Keith Earls
13 Danny Barnes
14 Denis Hurley
15 Felix Jones

WORLD BEATERS . . . . . .

FACT

Well there we go then Rory! Problem solved! Cave and Earls in the centre it is!

Now who should start at fly half?.........

I don't think you can consider cave as anything other than 13. The issue with ulster selecting spence was a case of getting him game time at centre. I would have argued Spence was more suited to the wing spot which whitten had at the time and we did have Marshall available then.

Realistically paddy will be in the international squad and potentially cave too although the latter is almost certain to be released. If Marshall is fit expect him to get game time with Spence and I would expect terblanche to start all those games to get some experience in there.

roddersm wrote:Well there we go then Rory! Problem solved! Cave and Earls in the centre it is!

Now who should start at fly half?.........

I think the only player who will cause no consternation is Paddy Wallace at 10.

I am going to try and find a few highlights that involve Earls at 12 and Cave at 13.. I shall post them here when I find them.

Okay - found a few Ireland A matches with Earls at 12/Cave at 13. Interesting to hear what players are on the team!











No real examples of Earls' distribution, just his attacking prowess. Obviously at the point in time he was being considered as a 12! Interesting to say the least.

He played all his schoolboy stuff in the centre. He was always at centre whenever I saw him play for Munchins or Thomond.

Here is a video of the 2006 Schools Final. Earls is at 13:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oCOLYezvqc

Jerome Kaino I think it was played in the backs at school though - and obviously now he is a backrower. Things do change, and I think Earls must improve his distribution to play in the centres. If he can do this, then I would have no problems with him playing centre but for now I do. He threw a few lovely passes over the weekend and a few rubbish ones. He needs to be more consistent. Though looking at Nonu who was once rubbish at this, he is now probably the best in the world at it. Things change eh.

EDIT: In your video Stag, that part where Earls literally just dances through about 6 players is exceptional! Really love that.

Rory, could we not equally say that if Earls was simply always picked at centre he could be amazing. He gets shunted about between centre, wing and fullback.

I think he is growing nicely into 13 and think he can do a good job there for Ireland. He isn't BOD but neither is Darren Cave (who could also do a good job). However its by no means clear cut at all.

His distribution would improve at centre rather than anywhere else yes - but with that in mind, there are better options in the centres right now. For Munster however, who are lacking in the centres, he could be played at centre week in week out. For Ireland, there are better options, and he is a utility back who can play many positions. So he should be played in the back 3 until, at least for Munster, his distribution can improve. Any chance of seeing Earls at 12 for Munster with Barnes/Chambers at 13?

Also we should stop comparing our 13s to BOD full stop IMO. None of them are, none of them need to be.

PS: You annoying Munster fans are slowly warming me to the idea of Earls in the centres, if you haven't noticed. I blame Rodders partly for reminding me of those Ireland A games!

Rory, did you not notice I put up a message the other day saying I notice you were happy to admit to being wrong on the "Earls should never play 13" issue

We'll have you appreciating the maul and the pick and drive soon enough!!

BTW against Connacht we played Barnes and Earls at 12/13

Why not switch it with Earls at 12? Barnes looks poor at 12.

And I do not admit to being wrong just yet :P I feel at this point in time he is a better outside back and his attacking prowess is his strength. However it also seems his attacking prowess is effective no matter where he plays. It is his distribution that needs improving! And like I said that can happen over time. Playing in the centre at Munster, it probably will happen.

red_stag wrote:We'll have you appreciating the maul and the pick and drive soon enough!!

Good shout stag! Munsters maul was outstanding against Treviso....forget about the pick and drive though....thats just there to allow O'Callaghan a touch of the ball and to give O'Connell a breather...

Nice one Rory will get a look at those vids later.

Yea but Trevisos maul was excellent too (which made it a great game).

Did you see our scrum? Did you? Did you? We actually pushed about 8m on one scrum it was amazing!!!!

red_stag wrote:Did you see our scrum? Did you? Did you? We actually pushed about 8m on one scrum it was amazing!!!!

I sure did! Its great that those overseas props you signed to bring on the young players can actually play a bit too.....

Seriously though BJ has been great signing, Lenahan I think it was credited BJ's turning of the scrum for helping Coughlan score the try.

Oh I dont take Sin E's stance on the props.

Im amazed by how well Botha has performed. I was pretty sure we were sold a CJ van der Linde.

I'm amazed too stag, I can't recall him managing to put 80min together last year. I thought he was a crock. Fair play he's made a huge difference to Munster.

Munster need a dominant scrum I think and a strong pack, its always been the foundation for their success.

There was an interview with Botha in one of the Sunday papers. Can't remember which one I was reading. He sounded very pleased with his new team but also very determined to put his body on the line and prove himself to the Munster boys. Buy into the Munster ethos and all that.

Stag, I'm delighted Botha is here for 2 years.

Rods, there is an interview in the ST (behind paywall) with BJ. Said its nice to be in a team that has focus and direction

Seriously, he sounds like the ultra professional. No bones about being here to make a few bob. Said you had to fight for respect in Munster. Said he misses all his saffer mates & some butcher who made special sausages for him up in Belfast.

Edit: he also said that he didn't think that the IRFU would go ahead with ruling that foreign players could have only one contract.

Sine,

He should have no trouble finding butchers in Limerick. Not a stab city reference. Just we love our ham.

Im delighted to hear this about him anyway. Nothing wrong with them coming over and getting big wages provided they are willing to put in the effort on and off the field.

Sin é wrote: Stag, I'm delighted Botha is here for 2 years.

Rods, there is an interview in the ST (behind paywall) with BJ. Said its nice to be in a team that has focus and direction

Just to also note about those clips I posted: Our back-line play look stellar in attack and very creative. Note who is playing 10 and the centres

10) Sexton (with a pretty hilarious shaved head)
12) Earls
13) Cave

Interesting indeed.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Just to also note about those clips I posted: Our back-line play look stellar in attack and very creative. Note who is playing 10 and the centres

10) Sexton (with a pretty hilarious shaved head)
12) Earls
13) Cave

Interesting indeed.

Interesting indeed Rory.....

Sin é wrote: Stag, I'm delighted Botha is here for 2 years.

Rods, there is an interview in the ST (behind paywall) with BJ. Said its nice to be in a team that has focus and direction

Seriously, he sounds like the ultra professional. No bones about being here to make a few bob. Said you had to fight for respect in Munster. Said he misses all his saffer mates & some butcher who made special sausages for him up in Belfast.

Edit: he also said that he didn't think that the IRFU would go ahead with ruling that foreign players could have only one contract.

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He's some catch! Keep him.... at least until his contract is ceremonially burned at the airport by the angry IRFU official with the long memory, with Botha in handcuffs to make sure he gets on the plane!

Sin é wrote: Seriously, he sounds like the ultra professional. No bones about being here to make a few bob. Said you had to fight for respect in Munster. Said he misses all his saffer mates & some butcher who made special sausages for him up in Belfast.

Ha ha Sin, just spotted that one...you never miss a trick sir!