Keith Earls and the number 13

First topic message reminder :

So Munster have named Keith Earls at outside centre against Treviso. This is now Earls' third match in a row where he has played 13 and looks set to continue this against Castres and Northampton. Given his past experience here for Munster, Ireland and Lions is he a certainty to play there against Wales?

geoff998rugby wrote:McFadden isn't close to Cave as a 13 imo - always looked better as a 12

McFadden was on the wing for that game. On a couple of occasions in the Connacht game Cave could have gone for the try line, but he just didn't have the pace to do it (and that was against Connacht).

I think he is a really impressive player though. Why has he never been tried at 12?

Sin é wrote:
The problem is that if your OH can't punish the opposition for infringements, they just have a field day.

That's obviously not true because we still won....besides the reality is that if your fly half can't draw defenders, retain possession in contact, tackle and pick the right pass and kicks, then it is irrelevant whether they can punish infringements or not.

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:

roddersm wrote:He is smart, excellent defensively, a good distibutor and has a decent kicking game.

Sounds like a 12 to me.

Why because you need to be stupid, a poor defender, and have no passing or kicking game to play 13? .....ok Earls it is then.....

Just sounds like the makings of a 12 to me especially if he lacks pace.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:McFadden isn't close to Cave as a 13 imo - always looked better as a 12

McFadden was on the wing for that game. On a couple of occasions in the Connacht game Cave could have gone for the try line, but he just didn't have the pace to do it (and that was against Connacht).

Are Connacht players slower than everyone else?

red_stag wrote:Just sounds like the makings of a 12 to me especially if he lacks pace.

So in order to play 13 you need to be a winger(Earls) or a 12 (McFadden) but if you are a genuine 13(Cave) then you should move to 12?...only in Ireland....

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The problem is that if your OH can't punish the opposition for infringements, they just have a field day.

That's obviously not true because we still won....besides the reality is that if your fly half can't draw defenders, retain possession in contact, tackle and pick the right pass and kicks, then it is irrelevant whether they can punish infringements or not.

We won because Earls got his hands on the ball a lot more than usual and was clinical with his finishing.

The rest of what you said is rubbish. Of course its relevant whether your designated kicker can take the points when offered. Only one player can take the kicks at a time - there are lots of opportuniteis/options for tackling, passing etc.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Of course, Sexton had to be mentioned Sin

I doubt he would have got a mention had he had a very good game, eh?

Quote from match report:

"Sexton's been awful today, and this touchline conversion isn't an easy ask, and it's no surprise that he's missed it. Ireland have been average today, but they've been so, so clinical. Every single chance they've had, they've turned into a try. "

I saw that quote and looked up his kicking success rate - it was 43%. Just as well Earls scored 2 tries. Stephen Jones was 80%.

The problem is that if your OH can't punish the opposition for infringements, they just have a field day.

The question is why you had to bring it up,it has nothing to do with this thread or conversation but you couldn't resist having a pop.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:McFadden isn't close to Cave as a 13 imo - always looked better as a 12

McFadden was on the wing for that game. On a couple of occasions in the Connacht game Cave could have gone for the try line, but he just didn't have the pace to do it (and that was against Connacht).

I think he is a really impressive player though. Why has he never been tried at 12?

I have seen McFadden play twice for the Wolfhounds at 12 with Cave at 13.

On both occasions the combination impressed.

His problem is D'Arcy is in the way at Leinster.
I still believe that 12 not 13 not 11 not 14 is his most natural position

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:McFadden isn't close to Cave as a 13 imo - always looked better as a 12

McFadden was on the wing for that game. On a couple of occasions in the Connacht game Cave could have gone for the try line, but he just didn't have the pace to do it (and that was against Connacht).

Are Connacht players slower than everyone else?

They are not an international team (and they are not full of international players). I think it might also have been their first preseason game (no offence intended towards Connacht).

Sin é wrote:
The rest of what you said is rubbish. Of course its relevant whether your designated kicker can take the points when offered. Only one player can take the kicks at a time - there are lots of opportuniteis/options for tackling, passing etc.

Sorry sin thats a load of old tosh. Your place kicker can't punish infringements that the opposition don't make....and if they can waltz 10 metres over the gainline with every carry and stop you on yours easily enough then there isn't much incentive for them to infringe is there?

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:Just sounds like the makings of a 12 to me especially if he lacks pace.

So in order to play 13 you need to be a winger(Earls) or a 12 (McFadden) but if you are a genuine 13(Cave) then you should move to 12?...only in Ireland....

What is a genuine 13? Also why do you say Earls is a winger. Played all his youth stuff as a centre, broken into the Munster team at centre and was moved out of position to accommodate him in the Irish team (as BOD couldn't be dropped but Earls was that good). Still playing at centre for Munster. More experience in the Heineken Cup and at International level at 13.

Yet he isn't a genuine centre.

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The problem is that if your OH can't punish the opposition for infringements, they just have a field day.

That's obviously not true because we still won....besides the reality is that if your fly half can't draw defenders, retain possession in contact, tackle and pick the right pass and kicks, then it is irrelevant whether they can punish infringements or not.

We won because Earls got his hands on the ball a lot more than usual and was clinical with his finishing.

The rest of what you said is rubbish. Of course its relevant whether your designated kicker can take the points when offered. Only one player can take the kicks at a time - there are lots of opportuniteis/options for tackling, passing etc.

Maybe he got his hands on the ball because he had Sexton and BoD inside him,and are you saying that goal kicking is more important than every other skill put together for an OH.
Tha last bit is complete rubbish by the way,if a player is running at your OH there are not lots of options for tackling he has to make it.The same if the outhalf has the ball in hand and the opportunity to feed a player he can't just wait for another to player to do it as those chances don't come along very often at international level.

There will come a time when all this will be seen as a waste of time and energy, as yay, I say onto thee - Dave Kearney will eventually be our 13.
! That let Trap's cat out of the sack...

BTW I see that he and his brother were born in Dublin, according to the Leinster site. Hmmm, I must look up Nacewa now then, maybe he's Irish qualified afterall.

Yep - Dublin, Ireland

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Of course, Sexton had to be mentioned Sin

I doubt he would have got a mention had he had a very good game, eh?

Quote from match report:

"Sexton's been awful today, and this touchline conversion isn't an easy ask, and it's no surprise that he's missed it. Ireland have been average today, but they've been so, so clinical. Every single chance they've had, they've turned into a try. "

I saw that quote and looked up his kicking success rate - it was 43%. Just as well Earls scored 2 tries. Stephen Jones was 80%.

The problem is that if your OH can't punish the opposition for infringements, they just have a field day.

The question is why you had to bring it up,it has nothing to do with this thread or conversation but you couldn't resist having a pop.

TBH with you, I was surprised at how critical the neutral commentator was. And someone needs to remind everyone that Sexton isn't the 2nd coming every now and then.

So, why didn't you let the comment I made go?

red_stag wrote:
What is a genuine 13?

Someone who plays there because it is their best position, which eliminates Earls and McFadden for a start.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The rest of what you said is rubbish. Of course its relevant whether your designated kicker can take the points when offered. Only one player can take the kicks at a time - there are lots of opportuniteis/options for tackling, passing etc.

Sorry sin thats a load of old tosh. Your place kicker can't punish infringements that the opposition don't make....and if they can waltz 10 metres over the gainline with every carry and stop you on yours easily enough then there isn't much incentive for them to infringe is there?

They generally infringe when defending, not when attacking.

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:
What is a genuine 13?

Someone who plays there because it is their best position, which eliminates Earls and McFadden for a start.

Or because its the only position they play

Lets see Cave really turn it on against the best first. The encouraging Celtic League displays are well and good but it was Nevin Spence who set the HEC alight last year. Short memories.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Of course, Sexton had to be mentioned Sin

I doubt he would have got a mention had he had a very good game, eh?

Quote from match report:

"Sexton's been awful today, and this touchline conversion isn't an easy ask, and it's no surprise that he's missed it. Ireland have been average today, but they've been so, so clinical. Every single chance they've had, they've turned into a try. "

I saw that quote and looked up his kicking success rate - it was 43%. Just as well Earls scored 2 tries. Stephen Jones was 80%.

The problem is that if your OH can't punish the opposition for infringements, they just have a field day.

The question is why you had to bring it up,it has nothing to do with this thread or conversation but you couldn't resist having a pop.

TBH with you, I was surprised at how critical the neutral commentator was. And someone needs to remind everyone that Sexton isn't the 2nd coming every now and then.

So, why didn't you let the comment I made go?

I would have but when Rory pointed out your hypocrisy you as usual gave a non answer so I decided to try to get a real one.

For once you've actually given one and admitted you're a WUM who likes having a pop at Sexton.

By the way we all know Sexton isn't the second coming that spot is occupied by BoD

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:
What is a genuine 13?

Someone who plays there because it is their best position, which eliminates Earls and McFadden for a start.

Or because its the only position they play

Or because it's the only position they're allowed play

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Of course, Sexton had to be mentioned Sin

I doubt he would have got a mention had he had a very good game, eh?

Quote from match report:

"Sexton's been awful today, and this touchline conversion isn't an easy ask, and it's no surprise that he's missed it. Ireland have been average today, but they've been so, so clinical. Every single chance they've had, they've turned into a try. "

I saw that quote and looked up his kicking success rate - it was 43%. Just as well Earls scored 2 tries. Stephen Jones was 80%.

The problem is that if your OH can't punish the opposition for infringements, they just have a field day.

The question is why you had to bring it up,it has nothing to do with this thread or conversation but you couldn't resist having a pop.

TBH with you, I was surprised at how critical the neutral commentator was. And someone needs to remind everyone that Sexton isn't the 2nd coming every now and then.

So, why didn't you let the comment I made go?

I would have but when Rory pointed out your hypocrisy you as usual gave a non answer so I decided to try to get a real one.

For once you've actually given one and admitted you're a WUM who likes having a pop at Sexton.

By the way we all know Sexton isn't the second coming that spot is occupied by BoD

But you still had to have a go even though Rory pointed out my hypocrisy

Anyway, I'm waiting to hear from Rory

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:
What is a genuine 13?

Someone who plays there because it is their best position, which eliminates Earls and McFadden for a start.

Or because its the only position they play

Or because it's the only position they're allowed play

Ah, come off it. Earls & McFadden have been shifted all over the joint by several managements since they played underage. Do you not wonder why Cave has never played any other position from what I can see. For Ulster, Paddy Wallace and Andrew Trimble have played a few positions over the years (wings, centre, fullback, outhalf).

It could be because Cave doesn't have the pace for any of the back 3, but it doesn't explain why he has never once played 12.

Sin é wrote: Do you not wonder why Cave has never played any other position from what I can see.

Not really no... I would have thought the answer was obvious, he's always been the best player in his position and other players have had to move to accommodate him, including Earls, rather than vice versa. Do you ever wonder why Earls gets shunted around?

I suppose Conrad Smith and O'Driscoll only play at 13 because they are too slow to play in the back 3 as well?

Rodders BOD has played in other positions as mentioned above. Cave got comfy due to lack of real rivals at ulster and is very much just going through motions of looking good in Celtic league

Sin é wrote:

But you still had to have a go even though Rory pointed out my hypocrisy

Anyway, I'm waiting to hear from Rory

Yes what's your point.

Standulstermen wrote:Done to death now lads. We have established who prefers cave and who prefers earls. Time to move on.

Good try, Stand. But .........................................well,it hasn't worked. I don't think the driver is onboard - it's a runaway.

Cave proved a bit to quick for Tipoki and Howlett here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_gRnhel_nc

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The problem is that if your OH can't punish the opposition for infringements, they just have a field day.

That's obviously not true because we still won....besides the reality is that if your fly half can't draw defenders, retain possession in contact, tackle and pick the right pass and kicks, then it is irrelevant whether they can punish infringements or not.

We won because Earls got his hands on the ball a lot more than usual and was clinical with his finishing.

The rest of what you said is rubbish. Of course its relevant whether your designated kicker can take the points when offered. Only one player can take the kicks at a time - there are lots of opportuniteis/options for tackling, passing etc.

Maybe he got his hands on the ball because he had Sexton and BoD inside him,and are you saying that goal kicking is more important than every other skill put together for an OH.
Tha last bit is complete rubbish by the way,if a player is running at your OH there are not lots of options for tackling he has to make it.The same if the outhalf has the ball in hand and the opportunity to feed a player he can't just wait for another to player to do it as those chances don't come along very often at international level.

Thepoint I assume Sin was making is that in an International match 43% kicking ratio is absolutely intolerable. Infact, take Sexton's 7/8 from 8 against Fiji (I think it was Fiji, could have been Samoa though) out of his stats for his first 10-12 games and his kicking ratio is below 40%. Now, whatever about having stats to prove everything, that is brass tax for your designated kicker, and no, do not even try to suggest that he 'makes up' for this deficiency by creating more tries. If that were true, then we'd have scored tries against Oz.

Is he more creative & a better tackler, yes. Is he in better kicking form than then, yes, Is he Ireland's future and present, yes. But do not try and gloss over such awful kicking. It undermines any reference you make to form, impact, rewarding players and all that jazz if you will tolerate such a poor return off the tee, especially in tight games. Case in point, Scotland that same year.

To be clear I am not proposing ROG for the Welsh game as anything other than no. 21. Sexton will hopefully be 100% fit & healthy and will lead from the front and his kicking post RWC has thankfully recovered and he has pressure kicks (Montpellier away) to grind out results in an unsexy fashion. Brilliant for all concerned in Irish rugby. But f@ck me I am glad we have ROG on the bench should he be having an off day (or indeed, should D'Arcy be injured/awful at 12, Sexton can shift across with Earls outside him. Thats a combo I'd like to see!

red_stag wrote:Rodders BOD has played in other positions as mentioned above. Cave got comfy due to lack of real rivals at ulster and is very much just going through motions of looking good in Celtic league

I could point out the hypocrisy here but it would be too easy.

Here's a better question should Earls even be in the Irish 22?

In my opinion hes not the best player in any of the 3/4 positions right now.
The best players in each position right now are:

9 Reddan
10 Sexton
11 Fitzgerald
12 McFadden
13 Cave
14 Trimble
15 Kearney

20. P. Marshall 21. Madigan 22. Earls/ Bowe

debaters1 wrote:
Thepoint I assume Sin was making is that in an International match 43% kicking ratio is absolutely intolerable. Infact, take Sexton's 7/8 from 8 against Fiji (I think it was Fiji, could have been Samoa though) out of his stats for his first 10-12 games and his kicking ratio is below 40%. Now, whatever about having stats to prove everything, that is brass tax for your designated kicker, and no, do not even try to suggest that he 'makes up' for this deficiency by creating more tries. If that were true, then we'd have scored tries against Oz.

Is he more creative & a better tackler, yes. Is he in better kicking form than then, yes, Is he Ireland's future and present, yes. But do not try and gloss over such awful kicking. It undermines any reference you make to form, impact, rewarding players and all that jazz if you will tolerate such a poor return off the tee, especially in tight games. Case in point, Scotland that same year.

To be clear I am not proposing ROG for the Welsh game as anything other than no. 21. Sexton will hopefully be 100% fit & healthy and will lead from the front and his kicking post RWC has thankfully recovered and he has pressure kicks (Montpellier away) to grind out results in an unsexy fashion. Brilliant for all concerned in Irish rugby. But f@ck me I am glad we have ROG on the bench should he be having an off day (or indeed, should D'Arcy be injured/awful at 12, Sexton can shift across with Earls outside him. Thats a combo I'd like to see!

I don't think anyone would dispute that Sextons kicking hasn't been good enough for Ireland and no one is glossing over it.Maybe the problem is in Sins wording but the fact is that even when he has had bad days with the boot Ireland have won games against Wales and Oz in major competitions.When RoG has played we haven't beaten any team of note since 2009,now obviously your OH doesn't win the game on his own but this is too glaring a fact to omit.
P.S. this is going to be my only post on RoG v Sexton I don't think there is anything new to say about it I only replied to you as I don't recall ever having debated it with you before.

asore......

That's cool, wont dwell on it, but I would point out that ROG made two nice cameo's against Eng & Aus this season.

Anyway, weather Deccie chooses Earls, Cave, McFadden or Bowe at 13, I am more worried about 12. I don't think D'Arcy is a good match for Cave or Earls and yet he will probably be picked. Not saying they will be awful together, but I'd prefer to see McFadden or even Fitzy, but he hasnt had much rugby at 12 this year.

Agree 12 is the problem. Lots of good 13s

Debaters makes a good point. To my mind D'arcy is still an issue. You could argue that D'arcy and Cave dont offer enough pace as a centre pairing (not calling anyone slow, just not blistering) whereas earls offers the pace but perhaps not the reading of the game that Cave would (not unreasonable given that Cave has played a lot more at 13).

Earls to my mind would work better with a centre that would put him into space where he can be so deadly. I mentioned this during my brief threadjack talking about Luke Marshall. The only ball playing 12 we have in the frame is Paddy Wallace and he is only just back from injury. Would two good performances be enough to convince Deccie to risk him?

red_stag wrote:Agree 12 is the problem. Lots of good 13s

And if we're worried about Ireland at 12.....Munster are farked! Don't get me worng, when Mafi has a good day he is very effective and not just at stepping but line breaks and option taking. But when he has a bad day.......jebus. His commitment is never in question though, almost a reckless disregard for his own safety.

debaters1 wrote:

red_stag wrote:Agree 12 is the problem. Lots of good 13s

And if we're worried about Ireland at 12.....Munster are farked! Don't get me worng, when Mafi has a good day he is very effective and not just at stepping but line breaks and option taking. But when he has a bad day.......jebus. His commitment is never in question though, almost a reckless disregard for his own safety.

Hush now lets not speak of such things.

red_stag wrote:Lets see Cave really turn it on against the best first. The encouraging Celtic League displays are well and good but it was Nevin Spence who set the HEC alight last year. Short memories.

Though you are wrong about Cave (I know, you like having your digs ) I agree about Spence. Spence to me is the bigger talent, however he needs more time. At this moment in time, Cave is the best 13 available IMO.

10 pages of nobody agreeing with anyone

Rodders mate, are you a banjo?

Spoiler:

You too Rory.

Standulstermen wrote:Would two good performances be enough to convince Deccie to risk him?

I'd put him straight in to be honest, I think form is overrated. We know he can and has done it at this level. He's a proven element in a midfield which will be unsettled.

It's him or D'Arcy regardless of what happens in the Heineken Cup and thats because it will be a new face at 13. And I would go for Wallace, because of that lack of distribution and vision in the midfield with D'Arcy and Earls.

Look lads, forget this endless circular debating. Earls will get a run in the 6-N. He's not the answer, its a stop gap. O Malley will replace BOD. He is the most natural 13 in the country. Just needs more time to develop in mind and body. That will come with regular PRO12 and some HC time. Has the best skill set of all those you are talking about. Cave will be lucky to get another full game for Ireland. (2 caps) He's good, but not good enough for Ireland. Best to say it rather than pussyfoot around.

Ireland's future centre paring - Mcfadden and O Malley. It will happen at Leinster 1st, then progress to the Irish team.

There, I have saved you all sleepless nights thinking about it. No charge.

Gib, there's gonna be a lot of bed-wetting now, you're a bad man

Notch wrote:Rodders mate, are you a banjo?

Spoiler:

You too Rory.

No idea what you are talking about but sure

O'Malley has always impressed me. I admire his fearlessness, his willingness to rise to the challenge and the ease to which he can settle into such a comfortable team.

What about his bad defence? So Cave is not the standard required, but O'Malley who has struggled at defence in the Pro 12, is impressive? Strange that

I havent said that Cave is substandard. I said above I have no problems with Cave, Earls or O'Malley starting at 13. You are the only one who has a close mind.

It was you (or maybe Rodders) who pointed out that you won't be happy unless there is an Ulster player at either 12 or 13.

I have said nothing of the sort..

EOM isn't up to the standard though. That is the difference between him and the other options.

My sincere apologies Rory, it was Rodders I was thinking of (see below). You both start with R and are Ulsterites. It gets me confuddled.

Rodders motto = No Ulster centres, No Happy

roddersm wrote:Thinking of combinations I like the look of any of the following:

McFadden and Cave.
Whitten and Cave.
Whitten and Earls.
Cave and Earls.
Wallace and Cave.
D'arcy and Cave.

By contrast I dislike these combinations to varying degrees:

D'arcy and Earls.
McFadden and Earls.
Wallace and Earls.
Anything with McFadden at 13.

red_stag wrote:My sincere apologies Rory, it was Rodders I was thinking of (see below). You both start with R and are Ulsterites. It gets me confuddled.

Rodders motto = No Ulster centres, No Happy

roddersm wrote:Thinking of combinations I like the look of any of the following:

McFadden and Cave.
Whitten and Cave.
Whitten and Earls.
Cave and Earls.
Wallace and Cave.
D'arcy and Cave.

By contrast I dislike these combinations to varying degrees:

D'arcy and Earls.
McFadden and Earls.
Wallace and Earls.
Anything with McFadden at 13.

Ha ha I'm quite embarrassed now...I actually didn't realise that everyone of those combinations had an Ulster centre !

My motto is no D'arcy at 12 and play a proper 13 at 13....

In truth I've been a bit harsh on young Earlsy, if he can build on his performance on Saturday then I'd be happy enough to see him start at 13. I do have my doubts though think Cave is the more complete and better 13 and he, Spence, Griffin and O'Malley present better long term options.

I sadly won't get to see Munster or Ulsters games this weekend as I will be away for work.

However, it doesn;t really matter as with Flood and Tuilagi out for Tigers, Caves performance is null and void. All we have to go on is a few Pro 12 cameos over the years. Earls will be up against Max Evans for Castres so this will be a great test for him to deliver.

Caves performance is null in void anyway stag.

I'm afraid the southern mafia will never accept that the heir apparant to BOD and Conrad Smith is an Ulster man. Never worry just stick a Munster winger who can't pass or a waif of a Leinster lad who can't tackle in there instead and everyone will be happy again.....