Keith Earls and the number 13

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So Munster have named Keith Earls at outside centre against Treviso. This is now Earls' third match in a row where he has played 13 and looks set to continue this against Castres and Northampton. Given his past experience here for Munster, Ireland and Lions is he a certainty to play there against Wales?

Agree in full Stand. I have faith that consistent game time at 13 will fine for Earls.

It is going to take a long time for Marshall/Hanrahan to be considered at 12. They are the next generation really. Munster have Barnes and Chambers at 13, but only Mafi at 12. Earls is a utility back who can play anywhere from 11-15. And yesterday I posted videos of Ireland A where Earls was at 12, and I remember him playing in those games with Cave. He looked very good, as did Cave.

Stag not long ago did you not suggest playing Earls at 12? I remember debating it with you (I am fairly sure it was you at least).

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Stag not long ago did you not suggest playing Earls at 12? I remember debating it with you (I am fairly sure it was you at least).

I had debated the idea and I am actually open to the idea. However chucking him into at 12 for the fun of it isn't on.

He could possibly do quite well at 12 but I haven't seen him play there since his schoolboy days so not a snowballs chance in hell will we lob him in there against Wales. He is the clear choice at 13 for me and Darcy/McFadden are the clear choices at 12. Wallace could join them if he shows form against Tigers and Clermont.

Go back a few pages and you will see the videos I linked where he played 12 for two seasons for Ireland A. It isn't putting him in for the fun of it, clearly he had been tried there and like I said, I remember thinking he and Cave made a formidable partnership back then. His distribution must improve if he wants to play there internationally, but as you say playing centre would only improve that aspect of his game. So why not play him there with Barnes/Chambers.

As I also said, this is for Munster to experiment with, not Ireland. Earls shouldn't play 12 or 13 for Ireland at this point in time, and he is certainly not the clear choice. McFadden and Cave are the clear choices, with Fitz being another different suggestion to playing centre.

Rory, here we find common ground.

I am happy for Munster to play Earls and Barnes in the Pro 12 together and take it from there.

I thought you were advocating playing Earls and Cave together in 3 weeks time against Wales.

dublin_dave wrote:feckless - les kiss will be quite busy trying to coach the defense and also coach the attack so may have less time to spend time coaching earls on their individual alignment and decision making in defense. to be fair mark tainton our kicking coach has massive pedigree as a backs coach

can anyone remember a country in recent years who have the defence coach and kicking coach coaching the backs for a major competition?

we may pull a master stroke and choose not to use them. maul up jumper garryowen. dark ages stuff

Leinster don't have a defence coach and they are in a major competition. Munster's defence is looked after by the forwards coach.

Who is the All Black's, Wallabies & the Springbok's defence coach?

Do they all have back's coaches?

Considering Gaffney had no problem picking up a job, there is every chance that there was no one available at short notice other than Brian Smith & Eddie O'Sullivan.

red_stag wrote:Rory, here we find common ground.

I am happy for Munster to play Earls and Barnes in the Pro 12 together and take it from there.

I thought you were advocating playing Earls and Cave together in 3 weeks time against Wales.

Definitely not against Wales, or for Ireland (yet). I want McFadden and Cave/Fitzgerald to play 13. I would not mind too much if Earls does play at 13 and I think he probably will. D'Arcy I just don't want to see at all. If D'Arcy plays with Earls it would be horror.

Less coaches with a bigger brief might work out better for the Irish, given that there should be a little more 'one mindedness' in more than one area!

Take time ...and it'll come to you. I did eventually make sense to me

I don't think Marshall is any more 'next generation' than spence for instance. I think the ulster management have learned their lesson as regards using spence at 12 and but for injury Luke Marshall would be ahead of Ian Whitten at 12 too.

With paddy only being renewed for one year by the IRFU it suggests to me they are expecting someone to emerge from 12 for them. No reason why it can't be Marshall. Fitness permitting I would expect him to see plenty of game time in the next 18 months.

maybe so sin e but lets look the Irish national team predicament

what part of our time is crying out for new ideas and performed exceptionally poorly for 18 months? the backline. We have lots of talented backs and we struggle to fashion a line break be it of set plays or in broken play. Our best attacking weapon our flanker with ball in hand. Its a massive massive problem.

We knew Gaffney was leaving after the world cup so had ample opportunity to source a replacement at the end of a 4 year international rugby cycle.

SecretFly wrote:Less coaches with a bigger brief might work out better for the Irish, given that there should be a little more 'one mindedness' in more than one area!

Take time ...and it'll come to you. I did eventually make sense to me

There are going to be firework here next week when Mick Galwey is announced as the new Team Manager. There will be coming off a few keyboards.

micks from kerry. he is sound.

Mine included Sin E. I don;t think he is acutally all that good a team manager.

Team manager? Sure that's just a logicistian.

Mickado wrote:Team manager? Sure that's just a logicistian.

And Im not sure he'd be very good at that.

dublin_dave wrote:maybe so sin e but lets look the Irish national team predicament

what part of our time is crying out for new ideas and performed exceptionally poorly for 18 months? the backline. We have lots of talented backs and we struggle to fashion a line break be it of set plays or in broken play. Our best attacking weapon our flanker with ball in hand. Its a massive massive problem.

We knew Gaffney was leaving after the world cup so had ample opportunity to source a replacement at the end of a 4 year international rugby cycle.

Club's are not in the same cycle as internationals though. Coaches like Joe Schmidt would not be available until the season was finished.

Name a coach who is available for the 6Ns that you would want (we've seen all the decent teams in the world cup).

By the way, Kiss was the backs coach for the Waratahs - he brought them on a tour to UK, Ireland and Japan as head coach before he came to Ireland.

Mickado wrote:Team manager? Sure that's just a logicistian.

I'd say Paul McNaughton was fairly influential in the setup.

I think its more than that, you'd need to be a former international, knows what its like to tour etc. I think Paul McNaughton sat on the PAG as well. They'd also need to get on well with the head coach.

that's the irfu jobs not mine. it would appear nobody was approached on Gaffneys departure. Im sure there were a few coaches who would have been worth chatting to at least.

lets see how our backplay is in the 6 nations. Hopefully il be pleasantly surprised and kiss has our backline looking dangerous again

dublin_dave wrote:that's the irfu jobs not mine. it would appear nobody was approached on Gaffneys departure. Im sure there were a few coaches who would have been worth chatting to at least.

lets see how our backplay is in the 6 nations. Hopefully il be pleasantly surprised and kiss has our backline looking dangerous again

You don't know what the IRFU did. They could have been turned down by someone, they could have been told that they would have to wait until the end of the season and the person involved does not want to disrupt where he is coaching at the moment by announcing it now. Your just assuming that just because they haven't appointed a backs coach and they are in situ for the 6Ns, that they don't know who their man is. It could be Kiss who is on trial for the job. You need to know a lot about defence if your going to be good at attack. The skills needed for the job are not that different.

Sin é wrote:

dublin_dave wrote:that's the irfu jobs not mine. it would appear nobody was approached on Gaffneys departure. Im sure there were a few coaches who would have been worth chatting to at least.

lets see how our backplay is in the 6 nations. Hopefully il be pleasantly surprised and kiss has our backline looking dangerous again

You don't know what the IRFU did. They could have been turned down by someone, they could have been told that they would have to wait until the end of the season and the person involved does not want to disrupt where he is coaching at the moment by announcing it now. Your just assuming that just because they haven't appointed a backs coach and they are in situ for the 6Ns, that they don't know who their man is. It could be Kiss who is on trial for the job. You need to know a lot about defence if your going to be good at attack. The skills needed for the job are not that different.

I agree. The reason they've given for not appointing one is that they didn't have enough time. This suggests to me that they have been looking for one but just haven't succeeded yet. I'd rather them wait and get the right man than waste money on a panic signing.

Standulstermen wrote:I don't think Marshall is any more 'next generation' than spence for instance. I think the ulster management have learned their lesson as regards using spence at 12 and but for injury Luke Marshall would be ahead of Ian Whitten at 12 too.

With paddy only being renewed for one year by the IRFU it suggests to me they are expecting someone to emerge from 12 for them. No reason why it can't be Marshall. Fitness permitting I would expect him to see plenty of game time in the next 18 months.

In Irish terms, they are certainly the next generation I feel. Do you see Marshall getting capped for Ireland any time soon? In the next few seasons? For Ulster I really hope he does get game-time, but we all know how Ireland love to wait for the younger players to gain vast experience first.

I think Marshall could be capped in the summer had he not been injured. He still may be but would need to see a lot of game time. I certainly think he could be within 2 seasons injuries and form permitting.

Stand, I would be very happy if that were the case, for both him and Spence. I just don't see it happening myself. I would be hoping for the two to play together for the Wolfhounds at least.

Well if you consider earls at 13 as deccies preferred choice an inside centre that can distribute and create space for his outside backs is ideal. I think Marshall has probably missed the chance to go on the summer tour as (barring injury to Paddy) he will be clearly at least 2nd choice for ulster. He is still the most natural 12 that Ireland have coming through with hanrahan not too far behind

Marshall has effectively lost a season - it will have to be next year he makes his breakthrough into the Ulster side

Do you not think he will get game time if paddy is away with Ireland Geoff or will whitten retain the shirt (in fairness he is deserving)

Standulstermen wrote: He is still the most natural 12 that Ireland have coming through with hanrahan not too far behind

There are lots of different ways to play 12. Ian Whitten or Luke Marshall could be as effective as each other. Same with James Downey or Paddy Wallace. All depends on what you want to do.

Ian whitten and Downey are limited though. Effective i grant you but still they dont possess the range of skills and thus the potential of the other two.Marshall from what I have seen can break contact, step, kick, pass. The two bigger lads dont have that option. Hanrahan may have trouble with the power aspect at 12 given his is on the small side but he looks a powerful wee bugger.

On a tangent. For arguments sake say earls gets the run of 6nations games and heineken cup games at 13 and performs (hardly beyond the realms of possibility). What role we he and BOD play in the summer tour to NZ. Do we shift earls again or move BOD to 12 or drop him

Standulstermen wrote:Do you not think he will get game time if paddy is away with Ireland Geoff or will whitten retain the shirt (in fairness he is deserving)

The first game I would expect Whitten to start and Marshall on the bench.
By the 4th game (I think it is 4) I would expect Marshall to be first choice.

My worry is Spence would be selected - I think that would be a big mistake.
Hopefully Cave is in the 6N squad so Spence can start at 13 and the situation doesn't arise.

Ian Whitten is actually better player than Downey imo. Very underrated.

Standulstermen wrote:On a tangent. For arguments sake say earls gets the run of 6nations games and heineken cup games at 13 and performs (hardly beyond the realms of possibility). What role we he and BOD play in the summer tour to NZ. Do we shift earls again or move BOD to 12 or drop him

If Earls is performing consistently at 13 for both Munster and Ireland it would be madness to drop him. BOD on bench or at 12 for Barbarians if Earls is doing well.

red_stag wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:On a tangent. For arguments sake say earls gets the run of 6nations games and heineken cup games at 13 and performs (hardly beyond the realms of possibility). What role we he and BOD play in the summer tour to NZ. Do we shift earls again or move BOD to 12 or drop him

If Earls is performing consistently at 13 for both Munster and Ireland it would be madness to drop him. BOD on bench or at 12 for Barbarians if Earls is doing well.

That would be my feeling too Stag. I wonder will it be that simple though.

Indeed, if Earls does perform, which is no guarentee but certainly not completely fanciful either, I think BOD at 12 or not at all would be the better option.

BOD will not be at the next RWC, he is aiming to put himself in line for the Lions Tour in 2013 as a swansong, something i think he is certainly capable of doing, but Deccie's loyalty should be to Ireland's great good rather than a tour happening in 15 months time for one player.

People very often accuse Deccie of being conservative but he has dropped the proven warhorse for a younger player before & he did it again at the RWC.

It would be some turn up for the books but no man, not even BOD, should be assured of his place because he is fit etc.

Deabters, forget about the blooming World Cup. If Earls is playing well keep him there. If he isn't maybe play BOD.

You say that no man should be assured of his place. What about picking a guy over someone playing better just due to a tournament 3 and a half years time.

Notch wrote:Ian Whitten is actually better player than Downey imo. Very underrated.

+1....and Cave is playing better than Earls so there you go. But why should who is playing better be a deciding factor as it rarely has in the past.

Rodders, Pro 12 performances aren't enough IMO.

Sigh.. I think some of you just purposely read over the parts about other centres who aren't Earls. Cave has played many seasons of HEC rugby, and for Ireland A. It isn't based on "Pro 12" performances.

They seem to be good enought for Earls?

No matter which way you want to twist it stag Cave is a better centre than Keith Earls, HEC or Rabo and if he's given the chance he'll prove it for Ireland too.

red_stag wrote:Rodders, Pro 12 performances aren't enough IMO.

Cave has delivered in both the HC and for the Wolfhounds. He has done it at all levels below full Internationals and even did ok in Canada for the first XV. He is ready

Ah no Rodders, we talking about performing well and winning in HEC.

It was Spence at 13 who led Ulster out of pool stages. Cave was a perennial loser with Ulster before then.

Earls has been a staple feature of Munster rugby winning at 13.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sigh.. I think some of you just purposely read over the parts about other centres who aren't Earls. Cave has played many seasons of HEC rugby, and for Ireland A. It isn't based on "Pro 12" performances.

No, no, it's not like that Rory...truly it isn't. I actually think Keith Cave is a really talented centre (not as good as Darren Earls btw) but it's just that...well, ... where was I????? Oh yeah....Keith Earls. Why has nobody mentioned him??? He'd make a smashing replacement for O'Driscoll.

So regardless of how well you play if you play for a team that qualifies for the final stages of the HC you should not be considered.

By that logic Best and Ferris should not make the first XV

Sorrey Stag you logic is garbage.

As an FYI Cave has played 3 times as many HC games as Spence and has scored 4 times as many HC tries

I would have thought this seasons performances would have been more relevant Stag.

Not sure why you are basing this on 2008/2009 performances.

Lads, I'm clearly extracting the urine. I have already said that I have no probs with Cave at 13.

Just getting impatient waiting for announcement.

Should have put that on your previous posting

If you read up Geoff I think I say that I have no issue with any combo of:

12 - Darcy, McFadden, Wallace
13 - Cave, O'Malley, Earls

And I mean it. As I see it, it is progress. 5 matches in a row without Darcy-O'Driscoll. Once the new unit gets a real go I couldn't care less.

BTW its funnier to not include the smiley face.

Any chance Munster can have Ian Whitten BTW? You have plenty of 12s. We will give you Shaun Payne as a team manager. . . . . .he's South African!!!!

Well rodders, he mentions 2008-2009 because Earls was at centre, not wing, but that's another debate.....

Look, I'd have no problem with Cave stepping up, honestly I wouldn't and I wouldn't be afraid for him either in terms of his attitude in dealing with being in the big arena, not one bit.

The reason I'd go with Earls would be because I KNOW he can do it at this level in the 13 shirt. You might say that is a little circular in logic, and I will accept that as being somewhat true, but I have no doubts that in all aspects of outside centre play Earls will not let us down.

This is not to suggest he will be as good as or better than BOD, but whomever replaces BOD, Cave, McFadden, O'Malley, Earls or A.N. Other will almost certainly be a damn sight sort of being as good as BOD. This does NOT make them poor options or bad players or point to bad coaching. More that we had an exceptional talent, a true great of the game in any era playing top flight rugby for 12 seasons and thus we are spolied as fans and critics.

I mean, BODs replacement is going to suffer from rickets as it is, but the one thing we'll have to give him is time. Time and a decent & fit 12. That I think is more important than who plays 13, imho, the guy playing WITH the new 13.

Jaysus you Ulster lads are easy to wind up.